Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

HeroR
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7760
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:28 pm

Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by HeroR » Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:57 pm

supersaiyanZero wrote:So anime fanboys can accept that Roshi, who had not fought in any saga since the start of Z. Could go mano a mano versus the strongest warriors in other Universes. Yet he was weaker than Raditz.

But he dodging and making jiren block, is too Much ? lol?
Why is it any time the manga is criticized someone always has to go to 'but the anime'. We're not talking about the anime. There is an entire thread comparing the anime to manga, go there.

And Roshi didn't even fight the strongest fighters in the anime TOP. He purposely went after weak, but tricky fighters who could trip up his team. When he did fight someone who was greatly superior to him, Frost stomped him and he only came closed to winning thanks to the Evil Containment Wave, which Frost used against him later. That and he nearly died taking out someone who would be considered fodder even with their growth ability.

And even then, people did complained about Roshi being in the TOP in the anime. To say otherwise is revising history.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 2742
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Miracles » Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:43 pm

emperior wrote:It’s the same man who took 3 years to get some water from Korin, after all. And he was trying dirty tricks to take it, so he wasn’t exactly a fighting genius as Toyotaro portrays him to be.
He also never received training from Popo and Kami and so he never learned how to fight with his eyes closed. He also admitted Goku had already surpassed him during Baba’s tournament and in the 22nd Budokai he retired for good after witnessing how the next generation was full of fighters much better and capable than he was. That was his character arc.

Roshi being the first teacher is not an excuse to completely change his character. It shouldn't be Roshi to remind Goku those things, and Goku as the experienced and genius fighter he is shouldn’t be reminded of the basics.
It’s like if Floyd Mayweather’s coach had to remind him how to properly throw a jab and a straight punch, how to guard and to not cross his legs when moving. Basically the most basic boxing things everyone knows. See how much sense it makes?

But suddenly, it turns out that Roshi was an awesome master all the time, but he just refused or forgot to teach his pupils the last and most important training on how to move! It is complete bullshit for Roshi to suddenly have a bootleg version of something as important as Ultra Instinct, when he never showed to have something remotely similar before. What the fuck does it even mean? It’s not UI but follows its “principle” makes no sense whatsoever and is just Toyotaro’s way to justify Roshi having UI but not really having it.
Toyotaro has also tried to sell this technique over power dynamic way too much in a single chapter, out of nowhere. If Roshi could beat Kahseral who is, from his own words, much stronger, then it means Roshi would have been able to defeat Raditz. I don’t know about Nappa, Vegeta or everyone who came later. But Kahseral was basically Raditz in this chapter: a fighter with a higher power level who relies on his scouter to gauge his opponent’s strength, who he deemed completely inferior to his. Too bad Roshi, the real Roshi from the real manga, was scared as fuck when he saw Raditz, and had no balls to go and confront him. Because we know, from basic logic established in the manga, that if Goku and Piccolo couldn’t do shit to Raditz, then neither could Roshi.

The latest Super manga chapter makes no sense to anyone who has read or watched DB by actually paying attention to it. Roshi’s training was all about pure strength, and in fact for Roshi martial arts was all about strength. Of course he had other teachings but that was the bulk of it. And it was exactly him who taught Goku and the others that martial arts are all about old plain physical strength, definitely not Vegeta or Freeza.
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

I don’t even care about the dynamics of how Ultra Instinct should or shouldn’t work, and I feel like the posters above me have already done a good job at explaining why Roshi vs Jiren doesn’t make sense in the first place.
What I am more concerned about is that the old man portrayed in this chapter is not the same Roshi from the original manga, and that Goku-looking guy is not Son Goku.
Roshi hasn't taught the principles back then to Goku...?

Dragonball: ch:32: "You don’t strive in the martial arts to win, but rather to not lose to yourself."
Dragonball Super: ch:39: "We don't master martial arts to win fights, we do it to conquer ourselves."
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

User avatar
Bergamo
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 968
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:18 am

Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Bergamo » Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:29 am

Simere wrote:
Bergamo wrote:
supersaiyanZero wrote:So anime fanboys can accept that Roshi, who had not fought in any saga since the start of Z. Could go mano a mano versus the strongest warriors in other Universes. Yet he was weaker than Raditz.

But he dodging and making jiren block, is too Much ? lol?
If I hear another person say that Roshi made Jiren block, I will literally kill myself.

FF Frieza deflected Vegeta's blast
FF Frieza took Goku's KK x20 Kamehameha and was completely unharmed
Frieza didn't need to block Vegeta's attack, but he did anyway

Guess Toriyama is a hack who doesn't know how to keep a consistent power scale. Vegeta should NOT be able to make FF Frieza block his attack. I'm burning my copies of the original Frieza Saga manga.
Those two Freezas aren't the same, he powered up against Goku by that point. And Freeza was going to tank Vegeta's blast, but then Piccolo made him think it was going to destroy the planet, so in a show of dominance he sent it back with one foot. Not that I care about this. It's just funny your comparison couldn't be more faulty.

Anyway...don't threaten to kill yourself.
Frieza didn't power up. There was no change in form or aura. Frieza literally decided to go from completely playing around to actually fighting. Do you really think Frieza got more durable in between fighting Vegeta and fighting Goku?
My explanations for the events of my favorite current manga.

DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations

User avatar
Simere
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1458
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:28 pm

Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Simere » Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:58 am

Bergamo wrote:Frieza didn't power up. There was no change in form or aura. Frieza literally decided to go from completely playing around to actually fighting. Do you really think Frieza got more durable in between fighting Vegeta and fighting Goku?
Are you ignoring that he said he's been holding back his power and that he's going to turn it up to 50%, or are you going to argue that he was lying and actually at 50%(or whatever number, since he's lying already) the entire time?

reecehoward
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 182
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:52 am

Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by reecehoward » Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:06 am

Bergamo wrote:
Simere wrote:
Bergamo wrote: If I hear another person say that Roshi made Jiren block, I will literally kill myself.

FF Frieza deflected Vegeta's blast
FF Frieza took Goku's KK x20 Kamehameha and was completely unharmed
Frieza didn't need to block Vegeta's attack, but he did anyway

Guess Toriyama is a hack who doesn't know how to keep a consistent power scale. Vegeta should NOT be able to make FF Frieza block his attack. I'm burning my copies of the original Frieza Saga manga.
Those two Freezas aren't the same, he powered up against Goku by that point. And Freeza was going to tank Vegeta's blast, but then Piccolo made him think it was going to destroy the planet, so in a show of dominance he sent it back with one foot. Not that I care about this. It's just funny your comparison couldn't be more faulty.

Anyway...don't threaten to kill yourself.
Frieza didn't power up. There was no change in form or aura. Frieza literally decided to go from completely playing around to actually fighting. Do you really think Frieza got more durable in between fighting Vegeta and fighting Goku?
No, there wasnt a change in physical appearance but he brought his power output to 50%. His battle power changed drastically, so yes, he actually did get more durable along with stronger and faster than when he was fighting Vegeta.

User avatar
Bergamo
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 968
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:18 am

Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Bergamo » Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:10 pm

Simere wrote:
Bergamo wrote:Frieza didn't power up. There was no change in form or aura. Frieza literally decided to go from completely playing around to actually fighting. Do you really think Frieza got more durable in between fighting Vegeta and fighting Goku?
Are you ignoring that he said he's been holding back his power and that he's going to turn it up to 50%, or are you going to argue that he was lying and actually at 50%(or whatever number, since he's lying already) the entire time?
You didn't read my post at all. He was holding back his power, but do you really think Frieza has the ki control to be constantly lowering his durability to just above his opponents.

According to Daizenshuu Frieza 50% is 60 million and Goku KK x20 is 60 million
A fighter doesn't just tank a kamehameha from someone with an equal power level.
After Frieza tanks it Goku mentions that that means Frieza really is holding back, implying that Frieza's durability is higher than his power output.
My explanations for the events of my favorite current manga.

DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations

Nickolaidas
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1030
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:56 pm

Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Nickolaidas » Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:23 pm

I love it when we are talking about arbitrary fictional writing as if it is computed with mathematical accuracy and is based on strict, unbendable rules.

precita
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5468
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:10 pm

Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by precita » Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:35 pm

Roshi fighting Jiren sounds like a self-parody. If this happened in DBZ, Roshi fighting Buu would be a self parody.

Now we have Jiren, on the level of Gods. What

User avatar
Kanassa
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6022
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:57 am

Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Kanassa » Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:46 pm

Bottom line for me is simply that no matter all the other bullshit surrounding this moment: Even with Bootleg UI, Roshi should not be able to dodge Jiren.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:


Obligitory Fan Fic Plug: Dragon Ball - Another Road
Kanassa wrote:
FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back. :D
- FoolsGil, Out of Context, 2017

User avatar
Simere
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1458
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:28 pm

Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Simere » Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:58 pm

Bergamo wrote:You didn't read my post at all.
Well, that's one disrespectful theory. I'm not surprised it's one you'd favor. Me, I always go with thinking that I didn’t make myself clear, or perhaps that they know something I don't. Except if they respond too quickly. Anyway, I wonder which theory is supported by an interrogative reply as to the intent of someone's argument.

Speaking of theories, this decoupling of durability is something I'm not familiar with, and why I didn't understand your post. I can certainly think of some instances where power and durability didn't correlate, but I've always been under the impression that when someone says they're going to stop holding back that all of their attributes are increased. So, yeah, I do think Freza's durability increased between fighting Vegeta and Goku.

User avatar
Bergamo
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 968
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:18 am

Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Bergamo » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:08 pm

Simere wrote:
Bergamo wrote:You didn't read my post at all.
Well, that's one disrespectful theory. I'm not surprised it's one you'd favor. Me, I always go with thinking that I didn’t make myself clear, or perhaps that they know something I don't. Except if they respond too quickly. Anyway, I wonder which theory is supported by an interrogative reply as to the intent of someone's argument.

Speaking of theories, this decoupling of durability is something I'm not familiar with, and why I didn't understand your post. I can certainly think of some instances where power and durability didn't correlate, but I've always been under the impression that when someone says they're going to stop holding back that all of their attributes are increased. So, yeah, I do think Freza's durability increased between fighting Vegeta and Goku.
It's not a theory. Goku says that Frieza should have been damaged by his KK x20 but he wasn't because he was only using 50% of his energy. This shows that Frieza's durability was greater than 50% of his power.
My explanations for the events of my favorite current manga.

DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations

User avatar
Simere
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1458
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:28 pm

Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Simere » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:15 pm

Even supposing that(which does not run contrary to my position), how does that show it's the same as it was against Vegeta?

User avatar
PFM18
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 3701
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by PFM18 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:08 pm

TysonWine wrote:
Doctor. wrote: You don't get it. It's because he's using a bootleg version of UI! In spite of no previous indication of him even knowing that self-movement is the way you should train your body for. But he's stronger now because he trained off-screen obviously... in spite of no indication of that whatsoever, he just pulls this out of his ass without explanation as to where he got it, when he got it, why he got it or how he got it.

It's incredibly baffling to me that anyone is defending this from an execution standpoint. You're allowed to like the idea, even if personally I still think it's too extreme to be credible, but at least admit it came out of nowhere without the slightest build-up and without the necessary context surrounding it in order to make such a specific circumstance believable.

On a side note, I find it funny how quick some people were to defend the fodder jobbing because they didn't get any "screentime" during the tournament preparation, thus they were never the focal point, but here they are defending Roshi's extremely sudden and contrived moment to shine despite his lack of any memorable screentime during the pre-tournament chapters, or any hint towards any exceptional power he may hold. Guess the manga can do no wrong, and this will be proven again when a UI user gets hit either by Jiren or Broly and it will be defended by the same people attempting to justify this by calling UI an infallible auto-dodge.
Having been told "Roshi dodged Jiren because he had pseudo U.I which supersedes physical limitations!" I hope those people realize the moment Goku or any other U.I user gets hit at ANY point in the manga's future that that argument instantly gets trashed. I guess those people are expecting a rather uneventful finale between Goku and Jiren.
Yes exactly. It is inevitable that Jiren will be able to hit Goku even after he has completed Ultra Instinct, and that will invalidate this entire defense.

User avatar
Sora Saiyan
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1005
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:19 am
Location: Destiny Islands

Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Sora Saiyan » Sun Aug 26, 2018 2:35 am

PFM18 wrote: Yes exactly. It is inevitable that Jiren will be able to hit Goku even after he has completed Ultra Instinct, and that will invalidate this entire defense.
I would love if the manga did what the anime did before Goku completed UI and only shows him coming close to getting hit because of the no flying rule.
If it does look unbeatable in the manga then I’d say it may actually be intended to be Goku’s final form, but if it can be hit against Jiren I just hope it doesn’t end up looking like a generic power up like in the anime’s final episode, and they establish early on that it can be hit.
I genuinely really don’t know what to expect of UI in the manga yet.
The heart may be weak. And sometimes it may even give in. But I've learned... that deep down there's a light that never goes out! -Sora

User avatar
Mister_Popo
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 791
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:12 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Mister_Popo » Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:41 am

precita wrote:Roshi fighting Jiren sounds like a self-parody. If this happened in DBZ, Roshi fighting Buu would be a self parody.

Now we have Jiren, on the level of Gods. What



Exactly. it's not meant that way by the writers. So in that sense it's not bad writing. They did it with another perspective than exact power scaling.
It's meant parodical. That's a different parameter to judge things by than bad writing from a classic scaling's perspective.

User avatar
Sora Saiyan
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1005
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:19 am
Location: Destiny Islands

Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Sora Saiyan » Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:39 am

precita wrote:Roshi fighting Jiren sounds like a self-parody. If this happened in DBZ, Roshi fighting Buu would be a self parody.

Now we have Jiren, on the level of Gods. What
It really isn’t executed well, but this is nowhere near as hard to swallow compared to the Buu thing. Buu would go for the kill, here Jiren has to be supressed to not kill Roshi, his speed will also drop because of that. It’s poorly handled, but Jiren having no transformations allows this to work easier than if he attacked Roshi in a transformed state.
Like I say, I really don’t like it but it’s not that hard to make work it’s just that some people are too quick to dismiss the possibility of it working. Of course this would work a little better in the anime where speedblitzing isn’t a thing anymore, but the suppression excuse should allow it to work anyway.
The heart may be weak. And sometimes it may even give in. But I've learned... that deep down there's a light that never goes out! -Sora

User avatar
Mister_Popo
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 791
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:12 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Mister_Popo » Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:48 am

Sora Saiyan wrote:
precita wrote:Roshi fighting Jiren sounds like a self-parody. If this happened in DBZ, Roshi fighting Buu would be a self parody.

Now we have Jiren, on the level of Gods. What
It really isn’t executed well, but this is nowhere near as hard to swallow compared to the Buu thing. Buu would go for the kill, here Jiren has to be supressed to not kill Roshi, his speed will also drop because of that. It’s poorly handled, but Jiren having no transformations allows this to work easier than if he attacked Roshi in a transformed state.
Like I say, I really don’t like it but it’s not that hard to make work it’s just that some people are too quick to dismiss the possibility of it working. Of course this would work a little better in the anime where speedblitzing isn’t a thing anymore, but the suppression excuse should allow it to work anyway.

If there is an explaination, that's not a bad one ... Jiren suppresses to Roshi's level, but he is surpised Roshi's speed / reaction and strength aren't evenly matched. That's why he initially can't hit him, once Jiren adapts to that, it's end of the ride for Roshi.

User avatar
Saturnine
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1471
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:45 am

Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Saturnine » Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:47 am

Simere wrote:
Bergamo wrote:Frieza didn't power up. There was no change in form or aura. Frieza literally decided to go from completely playing around to actually fighting. Do you really think Frieza got more durable in between fighting Vegeta and fighting Goku?
Are you ignoring that he said he's been holding back his power and that he's going to turn it up to 50%, or are you going to argue that he was lying and actually at 50%(or whatever number, since he's lying already) the entire time?
The point is he was at 3 million (2,5%) against Vegeta the entire time, and against Goku in the first phases of their fight as well.

User avatar
Marlowe89
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 1926
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:30 pm

Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Marlowe89 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:10 pm

Mister_Popo wrote: If there is an explaination, that's not a bad one ... Jiren suppresses to Roshi's level, but he is surpised Roshi's speed / reaction and strength aren't evenly matched. That's why he initially can't hit him, once Jiren adapts to that, it's end of the ride for Roshi.
The chapter even reinforces this point by showing Kahseral making the same mistake. All of the stronger fighters have to suppress themselves to a level suitable for eliminating Roshi rather than killing him, but neither Kahseral nor Jiren were able to account for the fake UI. With Jiren quietly re-adjusting his power and effortlessly tapping Roshi out of bounds, it's obvious that there's a massive divide between the two.

User avatar
Simere
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1458
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:28 pm

Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Simere » Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:15 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:
Mister_Popo wrote: If there is an explaination, that's not a bad one ... Jiren suppresses to Roshi's level, but he is surpised Roshi's speed / reaction and strength aren't evenly matched. That's why he initially can't hit him, once Jiren adapts to that, it's end of the ride for Roshi.
The chapter even reinforces this point by showing Kahseral making the same mistake. All of the stronger fighters have to suppress themselves to a level suitable for eliminating Roshi rather than killing him, but neither Kahseral nor Jiren were able to account for the fake UI.
That's not an answer, it’s part of the problem. It makes them look stupid, it makes them look simple. If your approach isn't having the expected results then obviously you should reassess the situation. To just stand there blindly throwing punches while crying about how it's not working, and not even paying mind to being on the edge of the arena—where’s the intelligence? Why is Roshi the only one allowed to have any trace of it while the rest just concern themselves with power?

First punch, Jiren should have been surprised. Second punch, Jiren should have realized what was up. Third punch, it should have been over. This still would have served as a good demonstration of the principle without cheapening Jiren to do it. Indeed, it builds him up, and builds up actual UI when it’s revealed later.

Post Reply