Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Marlowe89 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:46 pm

Simere wrote: First punch, Jiren should have been surprised. Second punch, Jiren should have realized what was up. Third punch, it should have been over. This still would have served as a good demonstration of the principle without cheapening Jiren to do it. Indeed, it builds him up, and builds up actual UI when it’s revealed later.
Replace "second punch" with "small flurry of punches" and that's more or less exactly what happened. Maybe Jiren was curiously trying to get a feel for Roshi's movement patterns. Does it matter? No, because it took him hardly any time at all to re-adjust. The general progression and flow is still as you've described it, except you're nitpicking over the exact paneling in an attempt to pry apart the point. Don't do that.

This is like saying kid Goku could lift several hundred tons from fan-made "feats" in early DB and then complaining about Toriyama's portrayal of him much later in the manga when it was revealed his base form couldn't lift 40. This isn't productive. This is ignoring the narrative in favor of visual quibbling, and in this case, pretending Jiren was more "cheapened" than he actually was.

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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Simere » Sun Aug 26, 2018 4:22 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:The general progression and flow is still as you've described it, except you're nitpicking over the exact paneling in an attempt to pry apart the point. Don't do that.
More like you're ignoring the exact composition of the scene to cling to your point. Do that if you want.
It's like saying kid Goku could lift several hundred tons from fan-made "feats" in early DB and then complaining about Toriyama's portrayal of him much later in the manga when it was revealed his base form couldn't lift 40.
No, it's not like that.
This is ignoring the narrative in favor of visual quibbling.
I presume you understand that two people can tell the exact same story in essence—"the general progression and flow"—but their quality is made distinct by the manner of their storytelling? Why, then, must I explain to you that visual narrative in a partly(some would say largely) visual medium is not a separate evaluation?

Nor is my suggested alternative an entirely visual change. You neatly tried to equate three punches to being the same as throwing a flurry of them, but in fact it's not. Not to mention I want him to have understood Roshi's movement, not just power up.

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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Marlowe89 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 4:57 pm

Simere wrote: More like you're ignoring the exact composition of the scene to cling to your point. Do that if you want.
But that's exactly what you're doing. Unlike you admitting the point that yourself, as a backseat writer, just described was the same, I acknowledged that there was a flurry of punches.

The composition of the scene shows Jiren quickly adjusting his strength to (casually) take Roshi out. This "served as a good demonstration of the principle without cheapening Jiren to do it". If I'm far from the only poster here that felt the need to point that out, surely I wasn't the only one with that impression. I'm not going to sit here and continue to fret over minor compositional differences, though, because I don't think it will (or ever has) resulted in an honest conversation.
Simere wrote: Why, then, must I explain to you that visual narrative in a partly(some would say largely) visual medium is not a separate evaluation?
...and hey, that's a perfect example of why this isn't an honest conversation! We're not even two posts in and you're already putting words in my mouth.

I never said it was a separate evaluation. I'm saying that you're quibbling over a couple of visual panels in an attempt to downplay Jiren's thought process when, in fact, we don't even know what that process consisted of. Then I suggested another possibility, and then I re-emphasized that it doesn't change the expeditious manner in which Roshi was eliminated. You can choose to ignore it if you want, but that's your prerogative.

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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Simere » Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:43 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:But that's exactly what you're doing. Unlike you admitting the point that yourself, as a backseat writer, just described was the same, I acknowledged that there was a flurry of punches.

The composition of the scene shows Jiren quickly adjusting his strength to (casually) take Roshi out.
First of all, I said that as a frontseat reader, not a backseat writer, and your contrast with me lacks any internal logic. You acknowledged a portion of the scene while saying you don't care to discuss the impressions "paneling" gives to the narrative, while dismissing the value of doing so. You say it again in this post. So, what's your defense? That you're not ignoring it, you just don't want to talk about it? Okay. Great distinction.
This "served as a good demonstration of the principle without cheapening Jiren to do it". If I'm far from the only poster here that felt the need to point that out, surely I wasn't the only one with that impression.
And I'm far from the only one who didn't have the impression, so what say you to that? Perhaps that the point wasn't strongly enough made?
...and hey, that's a perfect example of why this isn't an honest conversation. We're not even two posts in and you're already putting words in my mouth.
Hey yourself. The problem with this conversation is one(by your reckoning) post in you tried to trivialize my opinion as meaningless quibbling and urged me not to share it. What kind of "honest conversation" do you expect to spring from that?
I never said it was a separate evaluation. I'm saying that you're quibbling over a couple of visual panels in an attempt to downplay Jiren's thought process when, in fact, we don't even know what that process consisted of. Then I suggested another possibility, and then I re-emphasized that it doesn't change the expeditious manner in which Roshi was eliminated.
Yes, you didn't say it's a separate evaluation, you merely framed doing so as quibbling. My bad.

You're the one who keeps saying he just put more power into it, I was just going along with your phrasing. I know it's a possibility he did actually figure it out, and I think it would have been better to make it absolutely clear he did. And in just one or two pages, not six. I think that would have given the scene a markedly different atmosphere, you think it's not worth talking about—so, please, in the future just don't respond if you have nothing to say.

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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Mister_Popo » Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:04 pm

Simere wrote:
Marlowe89 wrote:
Mister_Popo wrote: If there is an explaination, that's not a bad one ... Jiren suppresses to Roshi's level, but he is surpised Roshi's speed / reaction and strength aren't evenly matched. That's why he initially can't hit him, once Jiren adapts to that, it's end of the ride for Roshi.
The chapter even reinforces this point by showing Kahseral making the same mistake. All of the stronger fighters have to suppress themselves to a level suitable for eliminating Roshi rather than killing him, but neither Kahseral nor Jiren were able to account for the fake UI.
That's not an answer, it’s part of the problem. It makes them look stupid, it makes them look simple. If your approach isn't having the expected results then obviously you should reassess the situation. To just stand there blindly throwing punches while crying about how it's not working, and not even paying mind to being on the edge of the arena—where’s the intelligence? Why is Roshi the only one allowed to have any trace of it while the rest just concern themselves with power?

First punch, Jiren should have been surprised. Second punch, Jiren should have realized what was up. Third punch, it should have been over. This still would have served as a good demonstration of the principle without cheapening Jiren to do it. Indeed, it builds him up, and builds up actual UI when it’s revealed later.

Roshi surprised him and he had to find a solution, he needed the speed to counter Roshis 'fake UI' and knock him from stage without killing him at the same time.
He could have done that by suppressing his power a bit less for a moment (as he had to counter Roshis unexpected speed) and then then suppress again in order to knock him off with just enough power. Jiren had to find the right balance / solution there for a few moments.
One should expect from a superior fighter like Jiren, with that level of Ki-control, he could adapt to the situation faster. It's as close to a suitable explaination one might find for this situation. It's not an exact science either, so Jiren could have been surprised a bit longer than one would usually expect from a fighter that's within that realm of power.

I hope they approach UI differently than within the anime, where it basically means a massive powerboost and somehow misses it's true meaning. It could be cool if, within the manga, this interpretation stays somehow different and restricts itself to the art of self-moment itself, of which Roshi, who doesn't excell in raw strength in comparison to these powerhouses, settles an example for Goku within this situation in order to set him up to manage a much stronger opponent.

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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Marlowe89 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:35 pm

Simere wrote:You acknowledged a portion of the scene while saying you don't care to discuss the impressions "paneling" gives to the narrative, while dismissing the value of doing so. You say it again in this post. So, what's your defense?
This is why you should actually take the time to read the replies you're addressing instead of dishonestly formulating a strawman position nobody took because you want the last word. Last time I'm going over this, so hopefully it'll be a learning experience for you:

I never dismissed the value of interpreting panel art. I never said I didn't care to discuss it as a general subject. I never even implied that pointing it out devalued the narrative point of the scene. I never said any of these things.

I said that you were quibbling (definition -- "an instance of the use of ambiguous, prevaricating, or irrelevant language or arguments to evade a point at issue") over the paneling/composition of Roshi dodging Jiren (i.e. "how many punches does it take to get to the center of a tootsie-pop?") to make the fallacious argument that Jiren doesn't have a trace of intelligence. It's quibbling because it assumes Jiren's thought process based on ambiguous details, such as, you know, Jiren's thought process. It's also quibbling because it ignores how easily Roshi was dispatched to make a thoroughly unsupported point about Jiren's supposed incompetence. I further clarified that I'm not interested in fretting over which composition is more appropriate with you because of its basis in those very, very baseless nitpicks. It doesn't result in productive back-and-forths because it operates on a faulty premise to start with.

Does that make sense? Is it finally getting through? I'd hope so, otherwise I wish you the best in your future attempts to accurately engage with the posters you're replying to instead of continuously attributing arguments to them that they never made. Or maybe just don't respond if you have nothing to say.

Have a good one.
Mister_Popo wrote:It's not an exact science either, so Jiren could have been surprised a bit longer than one would usually expect from a fighter that's within that realm of power.
He could have been surprised. He could have been mildly curious. He could have been, as some appear to suggest, "incompetent". There's a number of possibilities for why Jiren didn't beat Roshi even more promptly than the relative promptness in which he already dealt with him.

Nobody knows, nor is anything implied one way or the other.

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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Simere » Sun Aug 26, 2018 9:50 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:I further clarified that I'm not interested in fretting over which composition is more appropriate with you because of its basis in those very, very baseless nitpicks.
The entire premise of my post was “which composition is more appropriate”, by not engaging in that discussion you're not responding to what it's actually about. Thanks for the definition of quibbling, and an actual demonstration of it. You're quibbling over my "any trace" phrasing extracted from a paragraph largely directed at Kahseral to try to reframe my argument to something it wasn’t. You want me to admit the scene didn’t showcase Jiren as having zero intelligence? Well done, I admit it.

Back to the actual point I was making. In this chapter Roshi’s intelligence was highlighted at the expense of other fighters. Kahseral and Goku repeated the trite lines about power we’ve heard bad fighters in the past spout, something which Roshi referenced from a position of superiority. This makes their intelligence, their understanding of the complexity of fighting, seem relatively less than. The same way most rookies appear to be nothing when they start playing with the pros. Again, well done for spotting the inaccuracy of my exaggeration and masquerading it as the main point.

When it came to Jiren, what happened? At best it can be said we don’t see his thought process so we can’t draw any conclusions. I know this already, and did not base any arguments on it. But this is still not ideal, because while you can’t say he showed any poor insight, nor can you say he displayed any.

If you make some judgments about how the fight played out, as I did, there’s some worse assessments you can come away with. And I did. Namely, that Roshi has a better grasp than Jiren, he just lacks the power to match.
It's also quibbling because it ignores how easily Roshi was dispatched to make a thoroughly unsupported point about Jiren's supposed incompetence.
Rather than ignoring it, it’s almost the only thing I’m talking about. I’m directly addressing it and calling it insufficient. Taking six pages was meant to demonstrate how difficult it was for Jiren, not how easy it was. Needless to say, but apparently I have to, it still was ultimately easy for him. Obviously he didn't strain himself or come close to even remotely being threatened. But in the context of Roshi demonstrating technique over power, it should be explicitly reinforced and built upon that Jiren is a complete fighter who lacks for neither. In two pages or less.

This isn't just good for him, but it also reigns Roshi back into the realm of believability. Roshi did almost this exact thing in the anime with the reception not nearly so mixed, and it's because it's a question of degree. "More or less" isn't good enough when you're walking the fine line of people's credulity.
Does that make sense? Is it finally getting through?
It makes sense you'll do and say anything you can to dismiss what others think. That aspect of your personality got through to me a long time ago. Mildly charming, really.

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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Raphael_Z » Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:37 pm

People lack reading comprehension. Panels in a Japanese manga (and seconds/minutes in a Japanese anime) are not "real time", a battle could last 20 episodes of 20 minutes each and still be "under 5 minutes".

Also, Dragon Ball has been THE most inconsistent series when it comes to the speed of the characters:

Kid Goku on the 22nd Tournament was SO FAST that Roshi was unable to see him, he could only sense his ki. Then on future sagas, the whole "so fast that you cannot see him" concept just disappeared only to pop up from time to time.

If you ask me, Roshi lasted only a fraction of a second against Jiren who was mostly amused and not even fighting at .0000000000001% of his full power (he HAD to suppress his power A LOT in order not to kill Roshi with a single hit).

I mean, did anyone complain about how Cell's slap didn't kill Mr. Satan? Cell and Jiren are two fighters that are just waiting to see what happens (mostly because they're curious) but who could have ended things in a flash.

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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:13 pm

I honestly think people are overreacting and missing the point of the scene.
ssj3kakarot wrote: Why didn't Roshi show this level of resolve and ability during any arc in Dragonball Z? vs Raditz would have been a great time. Or are we to understand that Roshi has been training all this time and though power-level wise is weak, is able to accomplish something that even maxed Goku (TOP) has been unable to achieve?
The anime does the same thing. It gave Buu 2 hours just training with Mr. Satan to go from below Kid Buu to, Post-ROF Goku level. It took Roshi but just chasing some Puar action to go from below Piccolo Daimao to being on par with Frost. The anime basically did this lay scaling with everyone outside Goku, and Vegeta. Your answer is that there is no way to retroact logic to them using the same old incarnations of the characters from Z, to present them this powerful in Super with no sort of middle stage for them to get new powers. It seems a bit fallacious to ask a question like that. New scaling cant retcon old scaling without the very least an explanation connecting it.
ssj3kakarot wrote:Furthermore, why the hell did Jiren have to block? Even if Roshi is able to have some ability that is LIKE ultra-instinct, his physical ability to inflict harm on the likes of the Goliath known as Jiren, should be impossible. To write that into the manga is an insult to the fans ability to reason. It WAS shown that Jiren got to a point and decided to end the fight, but the fact that he had to get serious on ANY level vs someone like Roshi is wrong.
Kid Gohan pushing back 2nd & 3rd form Freeza is far more unbelievable than this. Yet like this scene it was meant to prove a point about a character. Gohan's hidden power couid only be shown through him beating up enemies he should have no where near any power to do. With Roshi, it was clearly done because Goku needed the pep-talk. Would it have worked if Roshi was paired with someone weaker, yes but then it wouldn't mean anything beyond him beating a weaker character. I think its obvious that he was paired to do this scene with Jiren because it was the strongest wall for Goku right now and he couldn't damage Jiren at alll, so they use Roshi as a tool to give Goku some inspiration. This is the one time I feel scaling should be irrelevant. Its purposeful plot armor.
Mister_Popo wrote:I hope they approach UI differently than within the anime, where it basically means a massive powerboost and somehow misses it's true meaning. It could be cool if, within the manga, this interpretation stays somehow different and restricts itself to the art of self-moment itself, of which Roshi, who doesn't excell in raw strength in comparison to these powerhouses, settles an example for Goku within this situation in order to set him up to manage a much stronger opponent.
I am really hoping Toyotaro keeps it within its literal premise and not make it a generic, illogical power boost. There is just no where in the premise that it should be like that. If anything it should remain like how Omen is portrayed, a Zen state like how Jiren fights.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:46 pm

HeroR wrote: Why is it any time the manga is criticized someone always has to go to 'but the anime'. We're not talking about the anime. There is an entire thread comparing the anime to manga, go there.
Because people tend to base their complaints on the manga, in accordance to the anime, but then often gloss over things the anime did by comparison that in themselves aren't good sources to compare the manga to when the anime has its own scaling on the same issues. Most of the arguments made against the manga that favor or ignore the anime, can easily be contradicted with comparison to the anime for the same contextual issue, people tend to have selective outrage over. This mainly because the anime came out first and people make most of their arguments off it as if the anime is the canon sequence of events and not just Toei's interpretation equal to the manga.
Jack Bz wrote:It was really really strange if you've read or watched the original Dragon Ball. Roshi clearly retired after admitting that he has been surpassed by the next generation in both strength and ability, and he was comfortable with that and knew he couldn't keep up going forward. And it makes me think, has Goku just become a worse and worse fighter as he's grown stronger? Or is it very recently that he's forgotten what his masters taught him? Or a momentary lapse in the tournament as he is overwhelmed by Jiren's strength?

It makes Goku look very inexperienced and in no way a fighting genius. Especially the fact that he's been frequently training with Whis, the greatest martial artist and probably greatest fighting teacher in Universe 7, and needs to be reminded of such basics by someone he has far exceeded as a martial artist in every way.
Roshi's point was that Goku was getting too focused on his power in comparison to Jiren's that he isn't being very adaptable anymore. He asks Goku where he got the
idea that he just needed raw power from and cited Vegeta. In a meta sense, its basically showing the flaws of Goku after he became more Saiyan, that his obsession with power has made him both dependent on it, and easily faltering to opponents he cant damage with it. Its the type of out of the box thinking that I think is needed for more modern character development and directional writing change that the series can use. Addressing the series' flaws from Z as actual plot points. Being called a fighting "genius" when all you rely on are just power ups doesn't really fit the vague claim and never has.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by reecehoward » Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:39 pm

SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:
HeroR wrote: Why is it any time the manga is criticized someone always has to go to 'but the anime'. We're not talking about the anime. There is an entire thread comparing the anime to manga, go there.
Because people tend to base their complaints on the manga, in accordance to the anime, but then often gloss over things the anime did by comparison that in themselves aren't good sources to compare the manga to when the anime has its own scaling on the same issues. Most of the arguments made against the manga that favor or ignore the anime, can easily be contradicted with comparison to the anime for the same contextual issue, people tend to have selective outrage over. This mainly because the anime came out first and people make most of their arguments off it as if the anime is the canon sequence of events and not just Toei's interpretation equal to the manga.
Jack Bz wrote:It was really really strange if you've read or watched the original Dragon Ball. Roshi clearly retired after admitting that he has been surpassed by the next generation in both strength and ability, and he was comfortable with that and knew he couldn't keep up going forward. And it makes me think, has Goku just become a worse and worse fighter as he's grown stronger? Or is it very recently that he's forgotten what his masters taught him? Or a momentary lapse in the tournament as he is overwhelmed by Jiren's strength?

It makes Goku look very inexperienced and in no way a fighting genius. Especially the fact that he's been frequently training with Whis, the greatest martial artist and probably greatest fighting teacher in Universe 7, and needs to be reminded of such basics by someone he has far exceeded as a martial artist in every way.
Roshi's point was that Goku was getting too focused on his power in comparison to Jiren's that he isn't being very adaptable anymore. He asks Goku where he got the
idea that he just needed raw power from and cited Vegeta. In a meta sense, its basically showing the flaws of Goku after he became more Saiyan, that his obsession with power has made him both dependent on it, and easily faltering to opponents he cant damage with it. Its the type of out of the box thinking that I think is needed for more modern character development and directional writing change that the series can use. Addressing the series' flaws from Z as actual plot points. Being called a fighting "genius" when all you rely on are just power ups doesn't really fit the vague claim and never has.
Roshi's point is complete bullshit because Jiren STILL beat him with raw power and speed. For all Roshi's godlike skill, once Jiren decided that he had enough all he did was raise his stats.lol So it's STILL power>technique. The only way techniques will matter is if power is relative between two opponents. Since absolutely no one aside from Belmod and his angel really know what Jiren can do, it doesn't even make sense for Roshi to tell Goku to rely on technique instead of power. For all they know, Jiren could have UI himself.

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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:39 pm

reecehoward wrote:Roshi's point is complete bullshit because Jiren STILL beat him with raw power and speed.
Which should be expected. The scaling in this scene isnt broken, contrary to what people claimed.
reecehoward wrote:For all Roshi's godlike skill, once Jiren decided that he had enough all he did was raise his stats.lol So it's STILL power>technique.
Only against Roshi obviously. It would have been worse if he didn't. Power was only the factor between them. He was just showing Goku what to do. Prior to that, Goku was just thinking about him not having the same power level as Jiren and did nothing else around it. Roshi was never meant to win that fight.
reecehoward wrote:The only way techniques will matter is if power is relative between two opponents. Since absolutely no one aside from Belmod and his angel really know what Jiren can do, it doesn't even make sense for Roshi to tell Goku to rely on technique instead of power. For all they know, Jiren could have UI himself.
This is where the concept of this fight falls flat because they made Jiren so strong that it almost demands a power up just to hold the stamina against him. The anime already showed the issue with it. If they really wanted to show Jiren being that far ahead of Goku his gimmick should never have been this presented endless power in just strength at all. Ideally if UI is a technique, than Goku's disadvantage should have just been a difference of technique. If Jiren was just SSB level but had the advantage of using UI alone, then Goku would need to just learn it in order to keep up with him. Thus this chapter would be much clearer in the intent.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by reecehoward » Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:50 pm

SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:
reecehoward wrote:Roshi's point is complete bullshit because Jiren STILL beat him with raw power and speed.
Which should be expected. The scaling in this scene isnt broken, contrary to what people claimed.
reecehoward wrote:For all Roshi's godlike skill, once Jiren decided that he had enough all he did was raise his stats.lol So it's STILL power>technique.
Only against Roshi obviously. It would have been worse if he didn't. Power was only the factor between them. He was just showing Goku what to do. Prior to that, Goku was just thinking about him not having the same power level as Jiren and did nothing else around it. Roshi was never meant to win that fight.
reecehoward wrote:The only way techniques will matter is if power is relative between two opponents. Since absolutely no one aside from Belmod and his angel really know what Jiren can do, it doesn't even make sense for Roshi to tell Goku to rely on technique instead of power. For all they know, Jiren could have UI himself.
This is where the concept of this fight falls flat because they made Jiren so strong that it almost demands a power up just to hold the stamina against him. The anime already showed the issue with it. If they really wanted to show Jiren being that far ahead of Goku his gimmick should never have been this presented endless power in just strength at all. Ideally if UI is a technique, than Goku's disadvantage should have just been a difference of technique. If Jiren was just SSB level but had the advantage of using UI alone, then Goku would need to just learn it in order to keep up with him. Thus this chapter would be much clearer in the intent.
I wholeheartedly agree with everything you've said here. This scene would have actually worked if Jiren was dominating in the skill department. The fact that Jiren has hardly even made a move on Goku makes what Roshi says sound like he's not even seeing the same fight that's being illustrated to the audience. Goku's showing more skill already than Jiren, so how can Roshi even say otherwise when there's a clear strength gap between the two and no hint of the stronger person's skill or lack thereof. It just makes no sense in context nor for what has been displayed through the entirety of Dragonball - Z.

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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by prince212 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:11 pm

reecehoward wrote: This scene would have actually worked if Jiren was dominating in the skill department. The fact that Jiren has hardly even made a move on Goku makes what Roshi says sound like he's not even seeing the same fight that's being illustrated to the audience. Goku's showing more skill already than Jiren,
Jiren didn’t think goku is showing more skills , he thinks goku is doing same movements all the time .
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Chapter 39 , Page 20
Last edited by prince212 on Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

reecehoward
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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by reecehoward » Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:28 pm

prince212 wrote:
reecehoward wrote: This scene would have actually worked if Jiren was dominating in the skill department. The fact that Jiren has hardly even made a move on Goku makes what Roshi says sound like he's not even seeing the same fight that's being illustrated to the audience. Goku's showing more skill already than Jiren,
Jiren didn’t think goku is showing more skills , he thinks goku is doing same movements all the time .
Image
Which is rather uncharacteristic of Goku isn't it?smh. Point still stands that Jiren isn't using any skill himself, so the scene still falls flat. Goku is still using more technique than Jiren...

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prince212
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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by prince212 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:55 pm

reecehoward wrote:
prince212 wrote:
reecehoward wrote: This scene would have actually worked if Jiren was dominating in the skill department. The fact that Jiren has hardly even made a move on Goku makes what Roshi says sound like he's not even seeing the same fight that's being illustrated to the audience. Goku's showing more skill already than Jiren,
Jiren didn’t think goku is showing more skills , he thinks goku is doing same movements all the time .
Image
Which is rather uncharacteristic of Goku isn't it?smh. Point still stands that Jiren isn't using any skill himself, so the scene still falls flat. Goku is still using more technique than Jiren...
Previous to the image that I attached before , goku just throw some “normal” attacks that did nothing to Jiren , they didn’t caught him off guard
I don’t know your concept of technique , in the anime he tried instant transmission and almost work.
Skills with moves easy to read or slow are nothing to Jiren . And the way goku used to power up before roshis lesson just confirm that .
Image
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

HeroR
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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by HeroR » Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:48 am

SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:
HeroR wrote: Why is it any time the manga is criticized someone always has to go to 'but the anime'. We're not talking about the anime. There is an entire thread comparing the anime to manga, go there.
Because people tend to base their complaints on the manga, in accordance to the anime, but then often gloss over things the anime did by comparison that in themselves aren't good sources to compare the manga to when the anime has its own scaling on the same issues. Most of the arguments made against the manga that favor or ignore the anime, can easily be contradicted with comparison to the anime for the same contextual issue, people tend to have selective outrage over. This mainly because the anime came out first and people make most of their arguments off it as if the anime is the canon sequence of events and not just Toei's interpretation equal to the manga.
Jack Bz wrote:It was really really strange if you've read or watched the original Dragon Ball. Roshi clearly retired after admitting that he has been surpassed by the next generation in both strength and ability, and he was comfortable with that and knew he couldn't keep up going forward. And it makes me think, has Goku just become a worse and worse fighter as he's grown stronger? Or is it very recently that he's forgotten what his masters taught him? Or a momentary lapse in the tournament as he is overwhelmed by Jiren's strength?

It makes Goku look very inexperienced and in no way a fighting genius. Especially the fact that he's been frequently training with Whis, the greatest martial artist and probably greatest fighting teacher in Universe 7, and needs to be reminded of such basics by someone he has far exceeded as a martial artist in every way.
Roshi's point was that Goku was getting too focused on his power in comparison to Jiren's that he isn't being very adaptable anymore. He asks Goku where he got the
idea that he just needed raw power from and cited Vegeta. In a meta sense, its basically showing the flaws of Goku after he became more Saiyan, that his obsession with power has made him both dependent on it, and easily faltering to opponents he cant damage with it. Its the type of out of the box thinking that I think is needed for more modern character development and directional writing change that the series can use. Addressing the series' flaws from Z as actual plot points. Being called a fighting "genius" when all you rely on are just power ups doesn't really fit the vague claim and never has.
Except the anime in most cases got the same complaints like people thought Roshi was too good in 105, so the whole 'the anime fans didn't complain' is BS on that bases. Especially in this thread where the anime is rarely mentioned when people talk about why the UI Roshi doesn't make sense.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Galan007
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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Galan007 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:01 am

Has anyone mentioned that Jiren also knew Roshi was extremely weak(relative to himself), so was almost certainly holding back astronomically as to not kill Roshi by accident with too strong of a punch, thereby violating the ToP's rules and making his universe subject to instant erasure..?

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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by prince212 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:17 am

Galan007 wrote:Has anyone mentioned that Jiren also knew Roshi was extremely weak(relative to himself), so was almost certainly holding back astronomically as to not kill Roshi by accident with too strong of a punch, thereby violating the ToP's rules and making his universe subject to instant erasure..?
Just the way Jiren chose to knock roshi out confirms your point .
What happened here is that for 3 days people had spoilers of roshi dodging 2 attacks and everybody thought roshi was god level , that magnified this issue , if there’s any issue .
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by reecehoward » Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:43 pm

prince212 wrote:
Galan007 wrote:Has anyone mentioned that Jiren also knew Roshi was extremely weak(relative to himself), so was almost certainly holding back astronomically as to not kill Roshi by accident with too strong of a punch, thereby violating the ToP's rules and making his universe subject to instant erasure..?
Just the way Jiren chose to knock roshi out confirms your point .
What happened here is that for 3 days people had spoilers of roshi dodging 2 attacks and everybody thought roshi was god level , that magnified this issue , if there’s any issue .
Not really. The scene doesn't work because you have clear examples in the series that establish that holding back doesn't limit your ability to follow movements. It was even dumb for Jiren to swing at Roshi at all if he felt that way.
Let's just check how Goku handles these situations back in Z.
https://youtu.be/gWLMb8ZYOZo
Guess our boy is more skilled than this chapter is trying to tell us huh? :think:

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