Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

[prince212]

Has anyone mentioned that Jiren also knew Roshi was extremely weak(relative to himself), so was almost certainly holding back astronomically as to not kill Roshi by accident with too strong of a punch, thereby violating the ToP's rules and making his universe subject to instant erasure..?

Just the way Jiren chose to knock roshi out confirms your point .
What happened here is that for 3 days people had spoilers of roshi dodging 2 attacks and everybody thought roshi was god level , that magnified this issue , if there’s any issue .

Not really. The scene doesn't work because you have clear examples in the series that establish that holding back doesn't limit your ability to follow movements. It was even dumb for Jiren to swing at Roshi at all if he felt that way.
Let's just check how Goku handles these situations back in Z.
https://youtu.be/gWLMb8ZYOZo
Guess our boy is more skilled than this chapter is trying to tell us huh?

We were talking about Jiren and roshi , goku has nothing to do here.
Here is a video that is close to my thought about roshi vs Jiren and general roshi comeback to the series in both versions . Also with examples back in Z
https://youtu.be/nScVgVnqf1E

[reecehoward]

Just the way Jiren chose to knock roshi out confirms your point .
What happened here is that for 3 days people had spoilers of roshi dodging 2 attacks and everybody thought roshi was god level , that magnified this issue , if there’s any issue .

Not really. The scene doesn't work because you have clear examples in the series that establish that holding back doesn't limit your ability to follow movements. It was even dumb for Jiren to swing at Roshi at all if he felt that way.
Let's just check how Goku handles these situations back in Z.
https://youtu.be/gWLMb8ZYOZo
Guess our boy is more skilled than this chapter is trying to tell us huh?

We were talking about Jiren and roshi , goku has nothing to do here.
Here is a video that is close to my thought about roshi vs Jiren and general roshi comeback to the series in both versions . Also with examples back in Z
https://youtu.be/nScVgVnqf1E

It has everything to do with Jiren as well. You mean to tell me Jiren couldn't do what Goku did here?! And Jiren's got the nerve to question Goku's skill?lol

[Galan007]

Just the way Jiren chose to knock roshi out confirms your point .
What happened here is that for 3 days people had spoilers of roshi dodging 2 attacks and everybody thought roshi was god level , that magnified this issue , if there’s any issue .

Indeed.

We know Jiren was almost certainly holding back nearly every iota of his power/effort initially, because he knew one blow, if not vastly neutered, would kill Roshi and get his entire universe erased as a result. Hence Roshi initially dodging a few of his immensely suppressed strikes. Once Jiren saw through Roshi's faux-UI, however, he proceeded to effortlessly eliminate him with a casual chop.

It was still a great showing for Roshi, but it certainly doesn't deserve the degree of hyper-wank I've seen it getting from some(not just here, but all over the interweb.) IMO.

[prince212]

Not really. The scene doesn't work because you have clear examples in the series that establish that holding back doesn't limit your ability to follow movements. It was even dumb for Jiren to swing at Roshi at all if he felt that way.
Let's just check how Goku handles these situations back in Z.
https://youtu.be/gWLMb8ZYOZo
Guess our boy is more skilled than this chapter is trying to tell us huh?

We were talking about Jiren and roshi , goku has nothing to do here.
Here is a video that is close to my thought about roshi vs Jiren and general roshi comeback to the series in both versions . Also with examples back in Z
https://youtu.be/nScVgVnqf1E

It has everything to do with Jiren as well. You mean to tell me Jiren couldn't do what Goku did here?! And he's questioning Goku's skill.smh

That similarity doesn’t apply good here . Jiren was the guy attacking in what we were talking about and goku is the defender in what you are talking about . Plus they are different characters , it’s not implied that they share all their knowledges .
Plus come on roshi just dodge for 2 seconds , it’s just a small moment of glory , really small , that totally fits into the message that they were trying to tell us . Don’t make that of a big deal .
Don’t let small moments of glory to weaker characters is really boring.
But ei it’s just my point of view and is a fact that 99% of the community didn’t like this small moment of glory nowadays, in the past there were lots of them . It’s called fiction and sometime allows what you think it’s nonsense just to build up or entertain the audience.

Just the way Jiren chose to knock roshi out confirms your point .
What happened here is that for 3 days people had spoilers of roshi dodging 2 attacks and everybody thought roshi was god level , that magnified this issue , if there’s any issue .

Indeed.

We know Jiren was almost certainly holding back nearly every iota of his power/effort initially, because he knew one blow, if not vastly neutered, would kill Roshi and get his entire universe erased as a result. Hence Roshi initially dodging a few of his immensely suppressed strikes. Once Jiren saw through Roshi's faux-UI, however, he proceeded to effortlessly eliminate him with a casual chop.

It was still a great showing for Roshi, but it certainly doesn't deserve the degree of hyper-wank I've seen it getting from some(not just here, but all over the interweb.) IMO.

Yeap there’s reactions totally overpowered , as I said before , a small moment of glory for the weaker guys it’s being on the series from long time ago , it doesn’t hurt me

[reecehoward]

We were talking about Jiren and roshi , goku has nothing to do here.
Here is a video that is close to my thought about roshi vs Jiren and general roshi comeback to the series in both versions . Also with examples back in Z
https://youtu.be/nScVgVnqf1E

It has everything to do with Jiren as well. You mean to tell me Jiren couldn't do what Goku did here?! And he's questioning Goku's skill.smh

That similarity doesn’t apply good here . Jiren was the guy attacking in what we were talking about and goku is the defender in what you are talking about . Plus they are different characters , it’s not implied that they share all their knowledges .
Plus come on roshi just dodge for 2 seconds , it’s just a small moment of glory , really small , that totally fits into the message that they were trying to tell us . Don’t make that of a big deal .
Don’t let small moments of glory to weaker characters is really boring.
But ei it’s just my point of view and is a fact that 99% of the community didn’t like this small moment of glory nowadays, in the past there were lots of them . It’s called fiction and sometime allows what you think it’s nonsense just to build up or entertain the audience.

Just the way Jiren chose to knock roshi out confirms your point .
What happened here is that for 3 days people had spoilers of roshi dodging 2 attacks and everybody thought roshi was god level , that magnified this issue , if there’s any issue .

Indeed.

We know Jiren was almost certainly holding back nearly every iota of his power/effort initially, because he knew one blow, if not vastly neutered, would kill Roshi and get his entire universe erased as a result. Hence Roshi initially dodging a few of his immensely suppressed strikes. Once Jiren saw through Roshi's faux-UI, however, he proceeded to effortlessly eliminate him with a casual chop.

It was still a great showing for Roshi, but it certainly doesn't deserve the degree of hyper-wank I've seen it getting from some(not just here, but all over the interweb.) IMO.

Yeap there’s reactions totally overpowered , as I said before , a small moment of glory for the weaker guys it’s being on the series from long time ago , it doesn’t hurt me

Roshi came at Jiren bro. If Jiren is any more skilled than Goku, he'd have let Roshi make an ass of himself by doing exactly what Goku does here. Jiren holding back to the degree where Roshi can even perceive his movements is bullshit, when we see right here in this video that they can raise their speed at a moment's notice. Jiren eventually does THIS anyways, but the point is why one earth did he not do that in the first place? What was the point of the scene if this was the inevitable conclusion?

You are the one who told me that Jiren thinks Goku is unskilled as if he were showing any more skill in this arc at all. If Jiren were skilled more skilled, the Roshi moment would have looked exactly like Burter and Jeice coming at Goku, of not worse. Jiren should have been able to see every move Roshi made before Roshi ever did it.

The fact that Roshi isn't even using any form of UI, doesn't help this scene make any more sense either. He's using a counterfeit version, and somehow this is supposed to close the enormous gap in overall power between Goku and Roshi? How?

[prince212]

[spoiler]

It has everything to do with Jiren as well. You mean to tell me Jiren couldn't do what Goku did here?! And he's questioning Goku's skill.smh

That similarity doesn’t apply good here . Jiren was the guy attacking in what we were talking about and goku is the defender in what you are talking about . Plus they are different characters , it’s not implied that they share all their knowledges .
Plus come on roshi just dodge for 2 seconds , it’s just a small moment of glory , really small , that totally fits into the message that they were trying to tell us . Don’t make that of a big deal .
Don’t let small moments of glory to weaker characters is really boring.
But ei it’s just my point of view and is a fact that 99% of the community didn’t like this small moment of glory nowadays, in the past there were lots of them . It’s called fiction and sometime allows what you think it’s nonsense just to build up or entertain the audience.

Indeed.

We know Jiren was almost certainly holding back nearly every iota of his power/effort initially, because he knew one blow, if not vastly neutered, would kill Roshi and get his entire universe erased as a result. Hence Roshi initially dodging a few of his immensely suppressed strikes. Once Jiren saw through Roshi's faux-UI, however, he proceeded to effortlessly eliminate him with a casual chop.

It was still a great showing for Roshi, but it certainly doesn't deserve the degree of hyper-wank I've seen it getting from some(not just here, but all over the interweb.) IMO.

Yeap there’s reactions totally overpowered , as I said before , a small moment of glory for the weaker guys it’s being on the series from long time ago , it doesn’t hurt me

Roshi came at Jiren bro. If Jiren is any more skilled than Goku, he'd have let Roshi make an ass of himself by doing exactly what Goku does here. Jiren holding back to the degree where Roshi can even perceive his movements is bullshit, when we see right here in this video that they can raise their speed at a moment's notice. Jiren eventually does THIS anyways, but the point is why one earth did he not do that in the first place? What was the point of the scene if this was the inevitable conclusion?

You are the one who told me that Jiren thinks Goku is unskilled as if he were showing any more skill in this arc at all. If Jiren were skilled more skilled, the Roshi moment would have looked exactly like Burter and Jeice coming at Goku, of not worse. Jiren should have been able to see every move Roshi made before Roshi ever did it.

The fact that Roshi isn't even using any form of UI, doesn't help this scene make any more sense either. He's using a counterfeit version, and somehow this is supposed to close the enormous gap in overall power between Goku and Roshi? How?[/spoiler]

We are not having a good understanding each other , I made an effort but seems hard , all my answers are in my previous posts. We just have different opinions and that’s all , not saying you are wrong or something like that , I Already said all I have to say . peace

[Miracles]

Let's be real here. I always think situations like these are ridiculous from a viewing standpoint. A weaker being doing things against someone a thousand times stronger than them.
However, I remembered that these type of situations has happened before in canon Dragonball. Where special techniques could hurt and impede much stronger foes.

Look at Kuririn vs Freeza? Why did second form Freeza's tail get sliced by Kienzan?
Why did Tenshinhan's Shin-Kikoho subdue Big lip Cell who is in another dimension?
How did Kaioshin manage to stop a being beyond his imagination in Super Saiyan 2 Gohan with his paralysis?!
Lastly, Roshi, using the basic principles "similar"to Ultra Instinct. So much so Beerus even compared Roshi's movement to UI.

So what is the point? Techniques greatly augment an ants chances to throw shade on a dinosaur.
Do we have to like it? Nope, but since we don't like it does it mean it doesn't work from a story standpoint? Nope.
As ridiculous as it may sound Roshi dancing on Jiren for a moment is nothing new in Dragonball literature.

[reecehoward]

Let's be real here. I always think situations like these are ridiculous from a viewing standpoint. A weaker being doing things against someone a thousand times stronger than them.
However, I remembered that these type of situations has happened before in canon Dragonball. Where special techniques could hurt and impede much stronger foes.

Look at Kuririn vs Freeza? Why did second form Freeza's tail get sliced by Kienzan?
Why did Tenshinhan's Shin-Kikoho subdue Big lip Cell who is in another dimension?
How did Kaioshin manage to stop a being beyond his imagination in Super Saiyan 2 Gohan with his paralysis?!
Lastly, Roshi, using the basic principles "similar"to Ultra Instinct. So much so Beerus even compared Roshi's movement to UI.

So what is the point? Techniques greatly augment an ants chances to throw shade on a dinosaur.
Do we have to like it? Nope, but since we don't like it does it mean it doesn't work from a story standpoint? Nope.
As ridiculous as it may sound Roshi dancing on Jiren for a moment is nothing new in Dragonball literature.

And in none of those examples is the gap between fighters anywhere close to being as wide as between Jiren and Roshi. Like seriously, Roshi logically isn't even 1% of Jiren, possibly not even 1% of that 1% either. So while there may be some examples, this situation isn't even close to being in the realm of believability.

With that said, my issue was never really just Roshi dodging Jiren, but rather the context surrounding it.

[Kanassa]

Has anyone mentioned that Jiren also knew Roshi was extremely weak(relative to himself), so was almost certainly holding back astronomically as to not kill Roshi by accident with too strong of a punch, thereby violating the ToP's rules and making his universe subject to instant erasure..?

Many people, but then many people also pointed out that even holding back, Roshi shouldn't have been able to dodge.

[Galan007]

Many people, but then many people also pointed out that even holding back, Roshi shouldn't have been able to dodge.

Well, if Jiren was holding back almost the entirety of his power as to not inadvertently kill Roshi(which is a perfectly logical assumption, given the rules of the ToP), then I'd liken any strikes he used against Roshi to this:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
IOW, drastically neutering his abilities in that particular situation.

Not saying that Roshi dodging the strikes isn't still impressive/ridiculous on some level, but it hardly deserves the level of...enthusiasm...it has gotten from some. Just MO. /shrug

[reecehoward]

Many people, but then many people also pointed out that even holding back, Roshi shouldn't have been able to dodge.

Well, if Jiren was holding back almost the entirety of his power as to not inadvertently kill Roshi(which is a perfectly logical assumption, given the rules of the ToP), then I'd liken any strikes he used against Roshi to this:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
IOW, drastically neutering his abilities in that particular situation.

Not saying that Roshi dodging the strikes isn't still impressive/ridiculous on some level, but it hardly deserves the level of...enthusiasm...it has gotten from some. Just MO. /shrug

Even with the example you just provided, Goku has the lowest score here and we all know he's the strongest in this page. This solidifies that he's more skilled in controlling his power than the others. We are supposed to believe in chapter 39 that Jiren is possibly more powerful AND skilled than Goku... So how is it possible that in the examples I've provided and your own, that Goku is showing way more finesse than Jiren in handling and holding back his power? If Jiren knows he can't control his power and fears killing Roshi, why even engage him physically at all? Like there's so much wrong with that scene. It's possibly one of the worst written scenes in Dragonball tbh. If it were a gag, it wouldn't be bad, but it's straight up meant to be taken seriously.

[Galan007]

Even with the example you just provided, Goku has the lowest score here and we all know he's the strongest in this page.

Not in his base form. #18 and Piccolo are FAR more powerful than base Goku, for example.

If Jiren knows he can't control his power and fears killing Roshi, why even engage him physically at all?

Because the plot demanded it. Simple.

Again, it's an impressive showing for Roshi... But all context considered(ie. the degree to which Jiren was undoubtedly neutering his own abilities), it certainly doesn't bother me as much as it bothers you. It's a matter of opinion, I suppose.

[reecehoward]

Even with the example you just provided, Goku has the lowest score here and we all know he's the strongest in this page.

Not in his base form. #18 and Piccolo are FAR more powerful than base Goku, for example.

If Jiren knows he can't control his power and fears killing Roshi, why even engage him physically at all?

Because the plot demanded it. Simple.

Again, it's an impressive showing for Roshi... But all context considered(ie. the degree to which Jiren was undoubtedly neutering his own abilities), it certainly doesn't bother me as much as it bothers you. It's a matter of opinion, I suppose.

So why is Krillin's higher as well?lol You missed the point.

It actually doesn't bother me THAT much that he did it. It's everything around it that makes that scene stupid. From Goku being reduced to a novice that forgot his basics, to Jiren jobbing to Roshi as if he is unskilled as well, Roshi berating Goku for the things HE taught Goku, and this nonsense of technique>power when that's never been the case for a gap THIS huge in any fictional series, and to top it all off everything thing gets undone the moment Jiren pops Roshi reminding us all that its STILL power>technique. Again, what was the point of the scene?

[Galan007]

So why is Krillin's higher as well?lol You missed the point.

And you missed my point behind posting that scene, "lol". It was simply meant to illustrate the degree to which Jiren was likely holding back in his strikes against Roshi... Hence why I'm fine with it.

It actually doesn't bother me THAT much that he did it. It's everything around it that makes that scene stupid. From Goku being reduced to a novice that forgot his basics, to Jiren jobbing to Roshi as if he is unskilled as well, Roshi berating Goku for the things HE taught Goku, and this nonsense of technique>power when that's never been the case for a gap THIS huge in any fictional series, and to top it all off everything thing gets undone the moment Jiren pops Roshi reminding us all that its STILL power>technique. Again, what was the point of the scene?

But it does seem to bother you quite a bit, as nearly every one of your responses include something like "it was the worst scene in DB history!!!" or somesuch. /shrug

Watching Roshi "move well" simply reminded Goku that sometimes superior skill/technique is more valuable against certain opponents than raw power. That realization was the final 'push' Goku needed to reach an actual approximation of UI. Was it the only way that realization could have happened in the manga? Of course not -- it could have been done much differently. But all context considered, is it nearly as big of a deal as some are making it? Definitely not.

But again, it's a matter of personal opinion.

[ankokudaishogun]

Jiren attacked with adequate seed and power to KO Muten.
But Muten outskilled Jiren's efforts(in not blowing up Muten) in the begin.
Jiren, then blocked Muten's punch because current and previous(Kahselar) shows of skill means he's not to be underestimated just because he's physically weak.
But once taken the size of Muten, Jiren proceeded to use more power\speed than Muten can outskill, and defeats Muten.

That's how I see it. Also, didn't Jiren actually praise Muten's skill as "perfect" in the manga? I see to remember that translation, but the chapter is still not out...

[reecehoward]

So why is Krillin's higher as well?lol You missed the point.

And you missed my point behind posting that scene, "lol". It was simply meant to illustrate the degree to which Jiren was likely holding back in his strikes against Roshi... Hence why I'm fine with it.

It actually doesn't bother me THAT much that he did it. It's everything around it that makes that scene stupid. From Goku being reduced to a novice that forgot his basics, to Jiren jobbing to Roshi as if he is unskilled as well, Roshi berating Goku for the things HE taught Goku, and this nonsense of technique>power when that's never been the case for a gap THIS huge in any fictional series, and to top it all off everything thing gets undone the moment Jiren pops Roshi reminding us all that its STILL power>technique. Again, what was the point of the scene?

But it does seem to bother you quite a bit, as nearly every one of your responses include something like "it was the worst scene in DB history!!!" or somesuch. /shrug

Watching Roshi "move well" simply reminded Goku that sometimes superior skill/technique is more valuable against certain opponents than raw power. That realization was the final 'push' Goku needed to reach an actual approximation of UI. Was it the only way that realization could have happened in the manga? Of course not -- it could have been done much differently. But all context considered, is it nearly as big of a deal as some are making it? Definitely not.

But again, it's a matter of personal opinion.

No, maybe I'm not making it clear. I COULD actually stomach the scene had Roshi never berated Goku in the first place. That's where the issues start. From there, literally everything in Dragonball gets retconned for everything afterwards to work. It may be YOUR opinion as to whether or not you like it or not. The fact is, literally everything about the story's internal logic and history of it's characters have to change for the sake of this plot point. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of breaking basic storytelling. What's worse is, that plot point gets undone with Jiren.

[Kataphrut]

Herms made a tweet about the Goku and Trunks v Black and Zamasu fight in the anime (https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1034635100619599872) that sums up the issue I have with getting worked up over power-scaling. The idea that this amazing fight sequence was controversial because the weakest character isn't immediately one-shot is ludicrous. Never mind that as Herms says, Trunks never manages to seriously harm either of them and is clearly on the back foot throughout most of the fight so it isn't even particularly inconsistent. It confirms my suspicion that most dedicated power scalers aren't really paying attention to the action onscreen, they're just constantly running numbers in their head like they're studying for an exam.

Now, this logic also applies to most of Roshi's fights in the anime, particularly him vs Frost. To anyone watching, it's obvious Roshi stands no chance against Frost, is being toyed with and is completely worn out by the end. But because he landed a couple of surprise blows during that fight, "the power-scaling is bad." I don't personally care about this, you could have Krillin throwing hands with Jiren and I'll buy it so long as it makes sense on screen (and hey, remember when that was a hyperbolic statement used to exaggerate Super's power-scaling issues?). The problem I have with Roshi v Jiren and the defence of it is that the manga was meant to be the version that avoided the issue. This is the same version that mostly sidelined Trunks in his own arc to avoid having him fight god-tier characters, and people praised it for being "better than the anime." This is the version that blitzed through the Tournament of Power, taking out characters and even entire universes that the anime at least attempted to utilise and people praised it because "it's more like a battle royale."

Roshi v Jiren broke the rules the manga was operating under in the worst way possible. It didn't even feel like an underdog fight compared to Frost v Roshi in the anime, it was basically Roshi styling on Jiren until the latter randomly decided he'd had enough and blew him away. This is the version people praise for being more grounded and less "rule of cool" than the anime, but ends up producing the shallowest "cool moment" of them all. All it really goes to show is that looking for grounding in Dragon Ball is pointless, and you're better off just embracing the fun.

[Miracles]

Let's be real here. I always think situations like these are ridiculous from a viewing standpoint. A weaker being doing things against someone a thousand times stronger than them.
However, I remembered that these type of situations has happened before in canon Dragonball. Where special techniques could hurt and impede much stronger foes.

Look at Kuririn vs Freeza? Why did second form Freeza's tail get sliced by Kienzan?
Why did Tenshinhan's Shin-Kikoho subdue Big lip Cell who is in another dimension?
How did Kaioshin manage to stop a being beyond his imagination in Super Saiyan 2 Gohan with his paralysis?!
Lastly, Roshi, using the basic principles "similar"to Ultra Instinct. So much so Beerus even compared Roshi's movement to UI.

So what is the point? Techniques greatly augment an ants chances to throw shade on a dinosaur.
Do we have to like it? Nope, but since we don't like it does it mean it doesn't work from a story standpoint? Nope.
As ridiculous as it may sound Roshi dancing on Jiren for a moment is nothing new in Dragonball literature.

And in none of those examples is the gap between fighters anywhere close to being as wide as between Jiren and Roshi. Like seriously, Roshi logically isn't even 1% of Jiren, possibly not even 1% of that 1% either. So while there may be some examples, this situation isn't even close to being in the realm of believability.

With that said, my issue was never really just Roshi dodging Jiren, but rather the context surrounding it.

Yeah, I'm fully aware of your complaints.

But regardless of the difference of percentage, characters having no business at all doing work on a out of their dimension opponent has always been a thing in Dragonball. We should not be surprised by this.

[prince212]

[spoiler]Herms made a tweet about the Goku and Trunks v Black and Zamasu fight in the anime (https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1034635100619599872) that sums up the issue I have with getting worked up over power-scaling. The idea that this amazing fight sequence was controversial because the weakest character isn't immediately one-shot is ludicrous. Never mind that as Herms says, Trunks never manages to seriously harm either of them and is clearly on the back foot throughout most of the fight so it isn't even particularly inconsistent. It confirms my suspicion that most dedicated power scalers aren't really paying attention to the action onscreen, they're just constantly running numbers in their head like they're studying for an exam.

Now, this logic also applies to most of Roshi's fights in the anime, particularly him vs Frost. To anyone watching, it's obvious Roshi stands no chance against Frost, is being toyed with and is completely worn out by the end. But because he landed a couple of surprise blows during that fight, "the power-scaling is bad." I don't personally care about this, you could have Krillin throwing hands with Jiren and I'll buy it so long as it makes sense on screen (and hey, remember when that was a hyperbolic statement used to exaggerate Super's power-scaling issues?). The problem I have with Roshi v Jiren and the defence of it is that the manga was meant to be the version that avoided the issue. This is the same version that mostly sidelined Trunks in his own arc to avoid having him fight god-tier characters, and people praised it for being "better than the anime." This is the version that blitzed through the Tournament of Power, taking out characters and even entire universes that the anime at least attempted to utilise and people praised it because "it's more like a battle royale."

Roshi v Jiren broke the rules the manga was operating under in the worst way possible. It didn't even feel like an underdog fight compared to Frost v Roshi in the anime, it was basically Roshi styling on Jiren until the latter randomly decided he'd had enough and blew him away. This is the version people praise for being more grounded and less "rule of cool" than the anime, but ends up producing the shallowest "cool moment" of them all.[/spoiler] All it really goes to show is that looking for grounding in Dragon Ball is pointless, and you're better off just embracing the fun.

Amen to that last sentence.
Mostly agree all in your message.
I take the fun , look for coherence just make me think that , for example goku should be out of the tournament by Jiren long time ago , in both versions . Call them plot convenience, plot holes , coherence or whatever , there’s always tons of them .
I take the fun and run . Roshi 2 pages dodging was one of the best moments in my opinion . Chill .
Sometimes they work better or not , depending of your tastes, for example I hate bulma going to the future and facing zamasu and nobody complains about it . There is other times like mr.satan surviving a punch from cell that I take it funny ..
So this roshi jiren , I really liked it . But I understand most of people not . For me in that chapter containing roshi vs jiren , gohan vs kefla was worse , I can’t deal with kafla admitting her defeat like she did ... in a serious moment ...
Roshi jiren was a joke just to adjust the ultra instinct plot in that way , that for me still has more sense that eat a boom and obtain ultra instinct . Btw was nice too

[FireFly]

The bullshit makes no sense no matter how you slice it. Roshi showed no indication of ever being able to follow people far above him in speed or power in the original manga, and shouldn't be able to here with Jiren of all people. Just Toyotaro pulling a contrived excuse to introduce Goku to UI without needing Beerus do to some demonstration to him first.