Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

[Lionel]

Nope. Sorry, what you wrote there makes no sense. Roshi was never a more talented martial artist than Goku, which is why it took him 3 years to adapt to Korin’s movements and get the water from him, while it took Goku just 3 days.
Roshi is way less talented than the likes of Krillin, Tenshinan, Yamcha, Chaozu. He should never be able to become a better martial artist than those, not even if he was younger. Even if you take Toyo’s Roshi in account, it’s implied he is that way because of his wisdom and experience. There’s no way he should be able to achieve Ultra Instinct faster than Beerus either.

See, this is why I absolutely despise this latest chapter. It makes Roshi into something he never was, ignoring everything his character was in the original manga, just for the sake of having him look cool. Because, frankly, if Goku had to “learn” Ultra Instinct during the tournament, he would have been able to do it alone and to realize alone that what he needed to beat Jiren was the same thing Beerus used in the Zen Exhibition match, which Goku saw with his own eyes. I would have preferred to see Goku slowly getting UI going through some phases, from a version more imperfect than Beerus’ (the one Roshi was gifted with) to a version similar to Beerus’, to Omen and then to the mastered one.
He didn’t need another teaching from a man who claimed multiple times he had no more to teach.

I still stand by how Goku casually achieving UI as he did in the anime was the best way to introduce the form. It also explains how Goku, at the end of the ToP, still isn’t able to use UI at will, as he achieved it for pure luck and in the perfect situation and condition, by breaking his limits.

Goku was already an extensional benefactor of Roshi's toils and efforts during his own personal climb to martial acclaim when he followed the hands-on example of his mentor throughout their time together labouring on the island prior to the 21st tournament. Just about every specific notable ability Goku has acquired, to my immediate knowledge at least, has been gleaned from or was inspired by the tutelage of others that had already laid the foundation down for them to cultivate upwards from there. It's like comparing Roshi's 50 years of tinkering with ki manipulation to conceive the Kamehameha with Goku witnessing the completed version once and then generating an imitation of it back in the first arc of the series. But even then, I wouldn't limit the scope of potential aptitude to just a person's ability to copy other techniques to whatever degree they're capable of mimicking them by.

I'm not going to justify Roshi's performance in this chapter. My argument is that he may have the potential to grasp it in a timely manner just like with others, possibly sooner if his centuries worth of living as a career martial artist bears any merit in a situation like this.

Of course Goku benefitted from Roshi’s teachings, it is the reason why he is still wearing the orange gi in his honor and respect. This doesn’t change the fact that, compared to Goku, Roshi is nothing talent wise. It’s the reason why he happily retired, as he felt that finally a new extremely capable generation of martial artists had emerged.

You have all the rights to believe that Roshi could learn the full Ultra Instinct if we go by the latest chapter of the manga. Unfortunately, it doesn’t really have sense if you think about what the original manga established regarding Roshi’s character, and there’s no way I would ever buy Roshi being able to learn Ultra Instinct faster than Goku, Vegeta and even Beerus.

We don’t know much of Beerus, but I was always under the assumption that Beerus is also very talented which is why he was able to reach the level he is at. We know he has been training to learn Ultra Instinct for million of years so if he still couldn’t grasp the full thing, then Roshi has no hope of doing it in a relatively short time.

By benefactor, I meant Roshi's preceding training with Karin. Similar to the Kamehameha, Roshi climbed his way up the tower to reach the top and proceeded to spent the next 3 years trying to claim the water from Karin before Goku ever did so. The intensity of Roshi's training should have logically been influenced by the rigours he endured atop Karin's tower since it's there that he increased his own strength and presumably established a new pedestal of strength. Goku would have inadvertently benefited from that experience as he laboured under Roshi's guidance. Roshi lacked that kind of preemptive advantage when he first climbed. All he would have had to work with is Mutaito and the Crane Hermit in his early years -- both of whom are good martial artists to work with, but Karin is technically a deity in his own right.

We never do see Roshi glean techniques or receive instruction under anyone else in the manga directly. Once after having witnessed Tenshinhan's prestige in the 22nd tournament, he gives up the match and returns to retirement. By comparison, Beerus has been learning whatever he's obtained under Whis. I would like to see what Beerus' learning curve is since it apparently took him millions of years just to acquire the abilities he currently has. Maybe his lazy personality acts as a hindrance to him mastering Ultra Instinct. Roshi's learning curve is also unknown, though if he managed to grasp enough of the Mafuba to begin practicing it somehow just from observing his master use it then it's possible to argue that he also possesses a keen analytical mind when it comes to techniques.

[shadowfox87]

Ultra Instinct as Whis states, is severing the connection between consciousness and body. In Cognitive Psychology, consciousness has 3 levels - conscious, subconscious, and unconscious. Thinking happens in all three levels. However, Whis states that UI is subconsciously moving the body to avoid any attack. This means that all the extra time that is wasted being conscious is gone. Beerus used UI against the other Hakaishin and Whis uses it naturally. The manga even reminds the fans using direct quotes from all of Goku's teachers about "movement" from Korin to Mr. Popo. Basically, they are saying that all roads lead to the same end path in martial arts - UI. (Credits to VegettoEX for this part) People didn't like Roshi dodging Jiren's attacks, but Roshi wasn't moving faster than Jiren to do so. He was anticipating and moved out of the way before those punches were made. He lasted 2 secs until Jiren just got a bit serious and karate chopped him. Jiren can't get too serious or he'll end up killing Roshi. Jiren is fighting a fly. A fly can be annoying for a while, but it is eventually defeated (unless you're Saitama). I really liked the manga version. I would prefer it that UI is not a boost in speed or power but mastery of self-movement, a technique. However, it does manifest as physical changes so it is also a transformation. In real life, "Mushin" is also a state of mind that is reached by a few of the top grandmasters in martial arts. It is similar in principle to UI but still a "far cry" from UI as Whis said. Roshi is over 300 years old now. He's been taught how to move by Korin and Mutaito. Earthlings have a better understanding of martial arts and ki than most of the universe. Evidence of this is that Freeza didn't even know how to control his ki or sense it until after he fought Goku.

For more info on UI, you can go here: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

[JazzMazz]

The problem isn’t Roshi dodging because he has a UI bootleg, but more because he has a UI bootleg at all.

In spite, Roshi, despite being more advanced than a lot of races, Roshi is easily the least developed of the main cast in story when it comes to movement and martial arts training.

As such, Roshi of all people really has no legitimate in story reason for being the only fighter among the main cast to showcase this sort of movement.

[Bergamo]

The problem isn’t Roshi dodging because he has a UI bootleg, but more because he has a UI bootleg at all.

In spite, Roshi, despite being more advanced than a lot of races, Roshi is easily the least developed of the main cast in story when it comes to movement and martial arts training.

As such, Roshi of all people really has no legitimate in story reason for being the only fighter among the main cast to showcase this sort of movement.

It's not necessarily about Roshi himself, but more of what Roshi represents. UI is the first major technique that Goku will be using since the Saiyan Saga, because he's been using transformations for most of Z and Super. Roshi represents pre-transformation era Dragon Ball and he was Goku's first master, so it makes sense for him to be the one to remind Goku of where he came from.

[JazzMazz]

The problem isn’t Roshi dodging because he has a UI bootleg, but more because he has a UI bootleg at all.

In spite, Roshi, despite being more advanced than a lot of races, Roshi is easily the least developed of the main cast in story when it comes to movement and martial arts training.

As such, Roshi of all people really has no legitimate in story reason for being the only fighter among the main cast to showcase this sort of movement.

It's not necessarily about Roshi himself, but more of what Roshi represents. UI is the first major technique that Goku will be using since the Saiyan Saga, because he's been using transformations for most of Z and Super. Roshi represents pre-transformation era Dragon Ball and he was Goku's first master, so it makes sense for him to be the one to remind Goku of where he came from.

Thats still taking the context of Roshi as a character and turning him into something that he doesn't adequately represent.

[Simere]

Gohan was Goku's first master.

[JazzMazz]

Gohan was Goku's first master.

Well, yes, but I wouldn't exactly say he was Goku's first serious master, and we didn't see any of the training Goku really did with him on-panel.

[HeroR]

It's shame for the old hermit that he's not young enough to take advantage of the health and vivacity of a person's physical prime. If he were a 20 something year old man once again being allowed to partake in these training regimens, who's to say how far he could go; maybe not with respect to raw power so much as broadening the horizons of his combat applications. Maybe a hypothetical Roshi in his prime could learn Ultra Instinct in quicker fashion than Goku. After all, it's about bodily harmonisation with external stimuli rather than attaining some new pinnacle of brutish strength.

Nope. Sorry, what you wrote there makes no sense. Roshi was never a more talented martial artist than Goku, which is why it took him 3 years to adapt to Korin’s movements and get the water from him, while it took Goku just 3 days.
Roshi is way less talented than the likes of Krillin, Tenshinan, Yamcha, Chaozu. He should never be able to become a better martial artist than those, not even if he was younger. Even if you take Toyo’s Roshi in account, it’s implied he is that way because of his wisdom and experience. There’s no way he should be able to achieve Ultra Instinct faster than Beerus either.

See, this is why I absolutely despise this latest chapter. It makes Roshi into something he never was, ignoring everything his character was in the original manga, just for the sake of having him look cool. Because, frankly, if Goku had to “learn” Ultra Instinct during the tournament, he would have been able to do it alone and to realize alone that what he needed to beat Jiren was the same thing Beerus used in the Zen Exhibition match, which Goku saw with his own eyes. I would have preferred to see Goku slowly getting UI going through some phases, from a version more imperfect than Beerus’ (the one Roshi was gifted with) to a version similar to Beerus’, to Omen and then to the mastered one.
He didn’t need another teaching from a man who claimed multiple times he had no more to teach.

I still stand by how Goku casually achieving UI as he did in the anime was the best way to introduce the form. It also explains how Goku, at the end of the ToP, still isn’t able to use UI at will, as he achieved it for pure luck and in the perfect situation and condition, by breaking his limits.

Casually? He blew himself up by accident.

[MKCSTEALTH]

What bothered me was the Jiren looked visibly annoyed trying to hit Roshi. So by that logic, Jiren is having a tough time hitting Roshi, an old hermit who's days of fighting are way past in all honesty, but can roflstomp Hit, a character that can literally manipulate time to his will and hide in pocket dimensions.

The inconsistency is what bothers me the most about it. Jiren should have no problem flicking Roshi away. It makes no sense Roshi last longer than one page against Jiren

[reecehoward]

It's actually really simple

The character who in the original manga was freaked out by the speed of Goku and Tien's fight in the 22nd BT



Can now suddenly dodge attacks from a character who is so far beyond him it's beyond comprehension.

It's very jarring.

I said it many times already, Roshi in the latest chapter is not Roshi. Toyotaro has no idea who Roshi is, and frankly he has shown to have forgotten who Goku is too judging by the last chapter.

We have presented FACTS to explain why this shit makes no sense whatsoever, how both Goku and Roshi aren’t just out of character - they are completely different characters, yet people still defend it coming up with the more disperate headcanons to try and defend this chapter. At this point they should just create a “Manga praise thread” where they can have fun praising the perfection of Toyotaro’s manga in their little circlejerk, while the actual fans of Dragon Ball can discuss each chapter and either praise or criticise them.
It’s quite hilarious how the manga defenders can’t comprehend that this chapter completely shits on almost the entirety of the original manga. I would expect this from anime fans who have never watched the original Dragon Ball, surely not from fans of the manga who are supposed to have read Toriyama’s work too.

I've only been here for a few weeks and I'm starting to see this. The bias is absolutely unreal. I just don't see how on any level this Roshi incident makes any sense, both from a power scaling and writing stance.

There's so much wrong with it that you literally have to create reasons to accept it beyond logical headcanon. For one, at this point in Dragonball, Goku could be Roshi's master! Yes, I said it. Goku has been fighting opponents from all over the multiverse while not only has Roshi only fought beings from earth, with the exception of King Piccolo, but he retired due to being far outclassed in strength and skill by the new generation. Goku has trained with deities and learned techniques far beyond Roshi's grasp of their universes brand of martial arts, the fact that he STILL cant fly proves this. So we as the audience have to suspend so much belief to even accept that he could teach Goku anything at this point. If he could, why now after 20+ years would he do it when it actually would've helped as far back as General Tao?!

The fact that with a bootleg UI, Roshi was able to finesse all over Jiren while they were at equal stats, takes all of the tension from the inevitable UI Goku vs Jiren fight away. If he couldn't hit Roshi with a poor man's UI, he's FUCKED when Goku gets to use MUI at an equal power level with Jiren.

[precita]

If this happened in the anime it would be the biggest jump the shark moment in Dragonball history.

Why do you think the anime writers had Roshi just take out weaker opponents? They knew him fighting anyone major was absurd. To be fair Frost beating him up and not killing him (even if he was holding back) was hard to swallow because like one punch from Frost should have exploded Roshi's body.

[Bergamo]

If this happened in the anime it would be the biggest jump the shark moment in Dragonball history.

Why do you think the anime writers had Roshi just take out weaker opponents? They knew him fighting anyone major was absurd. To be fair Frost beating him up and not killing him (even if he was holding back) was hard to swallow because like one punch from Frost should have exploded Roshi's body.

This stems from a misconception that DBZ characters can punch holes in universe. Ki control is a thing. Goku in the buu arc could only lift a few tons.

[supersaiyanZero]

So anime fanboys can accept that Roshi, who had not fought in any saga since the start of Z. Could go mano a mano versus the strongest warriors in other Universes. Yet he was weaker than Raditz.

But he dodging and making jiren block, is too Much ? lol?

[Bergamo]

So anime fanboys can accept that Roshi, who had not fought in any saga since the start of Z. Could go mano a mano versus the strongest warriors in other Universes. Yet he was weaker than Raditz.

But he dodging and making jiren block, is too Much ? lol?

If I hear another person say that Roshi made Jiren block, I will literally kill myself.

FF Frieza deflected Vegeta's blast
FF Frieza took Goku's KK x20 Kamehameha and was completely unharmed
Frieza didn't need to block Vegeta's attack, but he did anyway

Guess Toriyama is a hack who doesn't know how to keep a consistent power scale. Vegeta should NOT be able to make FF Frieza block his attack. I'm burning my copies of the original Frieza Saga manga.

[Koitsukai]

What bothers me the most are Roshi's stones to go toe to toe against Jiren, believing he can actually teach something to Goku... against Jiren, he believes he can make a point against Jiren AND HE DOES!!! Sigh... I mean is not like Gohan's case (he was actually training thinking of the day when he would actually be needed), Roshi had no idea the ToP would take place, and wasn't needed for a fight in over 20 years.
He could've done some dodging against Super Buu to buy Gotenks more time, if he could surpass in speed the guy that had just tank everything from Blue Goku, Super Buu should've been a piece of cake, they were all going to die anyway... and it wasn't too long ago.

[Simere]

So anime fanboys can accept that Roshi, who had not fought in any saga since the start of Z. Could go mano a mano versus the strongest warriors in other Universes. Yet he was weaker than Raditz.

But he dodging and making jiren block, is too Much ? lol?

If I hear another person say that Roshi made Jiren block, I will literally kill myself.

FF Frieza deflected Vegeta's blast
FF Frieza took Goku's KK x20 Kamehameha and was completely unharmed
Frieza didn't need to block Vegeta's attack, but he did anyway

Guess Toriyama is a hack who doesn't know how to keep a consistent power scale. Vegeta should NOT be able to make FF Frieza block his attack. I'm burning my copies of the original Frieza Saga manga.

Those two Freezas aren't the same, he powered up against Goku by that point. And Freeza was going to tank Vegeta's blast, but then Piccolo made him think it was going to destroy the planet, so in a show of dominance he sent it back with one foot. Not that I care about this. It's just funny your comparison couldn't be more faulty.

Anyway...don't threaten to kill yourself.

[Jack Bz]

It was really really strange if you've read or watched the original Dragon Ball. Roshi clearly retired after admitting that he has been surpassed by the next generation in both strength and ability, and he was comfortable with that and knew he couldn't keep up going forward. And it makes me think, has Goku just become a worse and worse fighter as he's grown stronger? Or is it very recently that he's forgotten what his masters taught him? Or a momentary lapse in the tournament as he is overwhelmed by Jiren's strength?

It makes Goku look very inexperienced and in no way a fighting genius. Especially the fact that he's been frequently training with Whis, the greatest martial artist and probably greatest fighting teacher in Universe 7, and needs to be reminded of such basics by someone he has far exceeded as a martial artist in every way.

But at the same time, it was a cool moment. I enjoyed it as an extremely left-field move. I think it would've worked better if he dodged only 1 punch, and more pages were given to the Gohan/Kefla fight.

[reecehoward]

If this happened in the anime it would be the biggest jump the shark moment in Dragonball history.

Why do you think the anime writers had Roshi just take out weaker opponents? They knew him fighting anyone major was absurd. To be fair Frost beating him up and not killing him (even if he was holding back) was hard to swallow because like one punch from Frost should have exploded Roshi's body.

A look at what it would have been like. Please tell me this wouldn't have looked absurd.lol
https://youtu.be/53jBM7IdNTo

[Regarder]

Would this whole thing be justified if it was established that Goku was way more skilled at learning techniques instantly, but Roshi still had cards up his sleeve in terms of inventing techniques? What if Roshi had acknowledged the fact that in DB he already said Goku had surpassed him?

"Goku, you've been a fighting prodigy since the day I met you. It took me 50 years to master the Kamehameha, but you grasped that technique in a jiffy! (background image of this) You surpassed me when you were still a kid, so all I could do up to now is watch you grow from strength to strength. (background showing Goku fighting powerful enemies) But... You think all I've been doing is watching exercise videos? (Goku poker face) Hmmpf! This old dog has one more trick to teach! I've been working on something special that's taken me a loooong time to master... so you should have no problem with it, right? Now... watch this one Goku!"

Then he charges at Jiren and pulls out the unconscious speed boost + reflex dodge that UI and proto-versions blatantly are. The other difference would be that even Jiren would be seen to crack a small grin, and not take this seriously. Roshi dodges exactly one punch, leading to mild surprise by Jiren/complete shock from everyone who knows Roshi, and and then the next one knocks him away no concentration required.

Maybe a sequence like that (but better worded/less wordy same content) would justify it more. I don't think it's out of bounds that Roshi would invent another technique/power up that just happens to be really powerful, but only Goku can really master it once observing it once. Just make Goku sound like less of a total idiot who forgot his training in the process. The trick here is really that anyone can come up with amazing techniques if there's a way to do it, but Goku can master anything after seeing it. There's no need for Roshi to act like Goku has already been taught this stuff. Make out it's something much more new and it can work.

[JazzMazz]

So anime fanboys can accept that Roshi, who had not fought in any saga since the start of Z. Could go mano a mano versus the strongest warriors in other Universes. Yet he was weaker than Raditz.

But he dodging and making jiren block, is too Much ? lol?

You are generalizing the anime fanbase.

I personally didn't enjoy Roshi's glorification in the anime, specifically for becauuse that was all it seemed to want to do. Likewise, I think Roshi's fight against the Jiren, magnifies the stupidity of the initial problem I hade expotentially. At least you could write off those other characters as just being extremely weak(though that still raises issues), but having Roshi go head to head against the strongest antagonist we've encountered up to this point for a period of time, only exemplifies and magnifies the original problem I had.