Is Toei’s Kale supposed to have a crush on Caulifla?

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Re: Is Toei’s Kale supposed to have a crush on Caulifla?

Post by supersaiyanZero » Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:04 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
supersaiyanZero wrote:It's a cheap ploy to appeal to a certain demographic and a pathetic attempt at making bland characters more interesting. While the undertones are there, there is nothing of substance worth mentioning.
Do the people responsible for Japanese entertainment even care about appealing to the LGBT community? The country’s politics are complicated in general, but they seem to be pretty firmly on the Conservative side of things.
Not necessarily appealing to the LGBT community, but the Yuri fans.

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Re: Is Toei’s Kale supposed to have a crush on Caulifla?

Post by Ssjcell » Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:02 pm

There's no doubt in my mind that kale views caulifa as a potential lover and that she has a crush on her. I'm glad I'm not the only person who gets that vibe from her I don't think there's any doubt in my mind that caulifa came on to her she would respond sexually.

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Re: Is Toei’s Kale supposed to have a crush on Caulifla?

Post by Saikyo no Senshi » Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:52 am

WittyUsername wrote:Do the people responsible for Japanese entertainment even care about appealing to the LGBT community? The country’s politics are complicated in general, but they seem to be pretty firmly on the Conservative side of things.
They do far more than Western fans think they do. While there's some unfortunate problems like fetishizing certain aspects which I wish was reduced, but there's also respectful representation of queer characters. Remember Sailor Moon and Utena had wonderful lesbian characters in the fucking 90s which was not a great time at all! That's not even getting into modern titles like Yuri on Ice, Kirakira Precure, Princess Principal, Kase-san(greenlit specifically cause the staff were so passionate about it), Flip Flappers(some caveats tho), Doukyuusei(same reason like Kase-san), and some more I'm forgetting right now. Hell, a studio was established recently specifically to appeal to BL fans. Some creators do care. It is no better or worse than Western media really. Good is few and far between. Of course, there's always room for improvement in this regard so as to have more respectful queer characters and I think the anime industry is slowly and steadily finding that path.

I agree that Japan is more on the conservative side. But, attitudes have changed drastically compared to 20 yrs. ago. If it sounds like I'm trying to make anime look better than it is, no that isn't my intention. I completely acknowledge its shortcomings, but anyone even remotely aware of the industry can tell that "Japan does not care about LGBT+ community, feminism etc" is a load of bollocks(not aimed at you, just generally speaking).

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Re: Is Toei’s Kale supposed to have a crush on Caulifla?

Post by WittyUsername » Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:19 am

Saikyo no Senshi wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:Do the people responsible for Japanese entertainment even care about appealing to the LGBT community? The country’s politics are complicated in general, but they seem to be pretty firmly on the Conservative side of things.
They do far more than Western fans think they do. While there's some unfortunate problems like fetishizing certain aspects which I wish was reduced, but there's also respectful representation of queer characters. Remember Sailor Moon and Utena had wonderful lesbian characters in the fucking 90s which was not a great time at all! That's not even getting into modern titles like Yuri on Ice, Kirakira Precure, Princess Principal, Kase-san(greenlit specifically cause the staff were so passionate about it), Flip Flappers(some caveats tho), Doukyuusei(same reason like Kase-san), and some more I'm forgetting right now. Hell, a studio was established recently specifically to appeal to BL fans. Some creators do care. It is no better or worse than Western media really. Good is few and far between. Of course, there's always room for improvement in this regard so as to have more respectful queer characters and I think the anime industry is slowly and steadily finding that path.

I agree that Japan is more on the conservative side. But, attitudes have changed drastically compared to 20 yrs. ago. If it sounds like I'm trying to make anime look better than it is, no that isn't my intention. I completely acknowledge its shortcomings, but anyone even remotely aware of the industry can tell that "Japan does not care about LGBT+ community, feminism etc" is a load of bollocks(not aimed at you, just generally speaking).
Japan’s attitude towards homosexuality has always confused me. On the one hand, they’ve historically been more open about depicting it in children’s entertainment compared to the west, but at the same time, they haven’t been above exploiting the negative stereotypes associated with gay people (just look at how Toei portrayed General Blue), and gay marriage still isn’t legal over there.

Come to think of it, is it fair to say that Japan is generally more accepting of homosexuality when it involves women compared to when it involves men?

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Re: Is Toei’s Kale supposed to have a crush on Caulifla?

Post by Cipher » Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:41 am

Anime Kale is about as straight as a U-turn.

And I don't think that's just fans puffing it up, either. I really do feel it was someone's intention to go as far as they could without explicit confirmation. Which is, you know, still not great, but it's something.

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Re: Is Toei’s Kale supposed to have a crush on Caulifla?

Post by MKCSTEALTH » Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:40 pm

The anime was fairly confusing about it. Before the ToP, Kale was afraid of losing Caulifla to Cabbe. That can be taken romantically or familialy. During the ToP, I definitely got more of a sister vibe from the two. Especially with Caulifla calling her "her best protege"

Whatever they decide, I'll be cool with it.

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Re: Is Toei’s Kale supposed to have a crush on Caulifla?

Post by Saiga » Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:04 pm

It's total yuribait. Unfortunately common in anime, it is there to appeal to yuri fans and so doesn't need to be explicit for fans to buy into it. That way they avoid actually comitting to it and risking upsetting someone or god forbid actually doing somethinh progressive.

And as is incredibly regular in these sorts of portrayals, they dial it down over time. Kale at first comes off as jealous and clingy, motivated solely by her crush on Caulifla. Then instead she's motivated by self-loathing and fear, and Caulifla helps her out of it and they're such good friends. Such friendly friends!

From what I've read, Japan has this comcept of 'Class S' relationships - where young/adolescent girls have a close friendship that bares similarity with romance, but with the expectation that they will grow out of it because it's not a 'real' romance. That fits with the way Caulifla's gang was portrayed using high-school delinquent tropes in the anime.

From a Western perspective, it may seem easy to say Kale is gay, but with DB Super being a Japanese work that leans heavily on anime tropes I think it's most important to view it from an anime perspective.
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Re: Is Toei’s Kale supposed to have a crush on Caulifla?

Post by ekrolo2 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:54 am

Alruneia wrote:No, not really. There may be a bit of yuribait scattered around, but honestly, this is more the shipping part of the fandom blowing things out of proportion than anything.
Because in shipping culture, friendship doesn't exist, everyone wants to fuck everyone and everything else.
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Re: Is Toei’s Kale supposed to have a crush on Caulifla?

Post by Doctor. » Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:59 am

It's yuribait and waifubait at the same time. Kale has no other purpose other than look cute and bait shipping wars. She's Broly expy when she transforms to hold the attention of those who don't care about the fact that she happens to be a woman who may or may not be gay.

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Re: Is Toei’s Kale supposed to have a crush on Caulifla?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:12 pm

If you look at where Pretty Cure has been going lately I definitely feel Caulifla and Kale were meant to be in the same mold, only they're stuck in a shitty shounen series with bad designs, so a lot of the heavy lifting has to be done through dialogue. In KiraKira PreCure a la Mode there was the pairing of Yukari and Akira, with Akira being portrayed as either non-binary or 'boyish' (I haven't seen enough of the series yet). Then there's been Hugtto! PreCure, which has not only Emiru and Ruru but also Henri and Masato. It's the fuckin' gayest thing ever and I need more of it.

I think there's certainly a mood among creators at Toei Animation to push these kinds of stories, even if they can't just come right out and say it, people--and kids--will understand what they mean.
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Re: Is Toei’s Kale supposed to have a crush on Caulifla?

Post by Doctor. » Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:17 pm

They're not pushing these sorts of stories for any artistic purpose. They're doing it to pander to otaku.

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Re: Is Toei’s Kale supposed to have a crush on Caulifla?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:27 pm

Doctor. wrote:They're not pushing these sorts of stories for any artistic purpose. They're doing it to pander to otaku.
The quality wouldn't be as high as it is if the creators of these works were being cynical businessmen.
Doctor. wrote:It's yuribait and waifubait at the same time. Kale has no other purpose other than look cute and bait shipping wars. She's Broly expy when she transforms to hold the attention of those who don't care about the fact that she happens to be a woman who may or may not be gay.
Let's break Kale down: Kale is a cute girl character, shy, but also protective and needy. She has self-esteem issues and views anyone approaching her most dear person as a personal challenge. People who feel the arrival of others into their dynamic with another person feel that way because they have little of their own identity to refrain from giving into irrational impulses that make them make rash decisions, such as when Kale would attack Cabba and Son Gokuu for winning Caulifla's attention. Kale is actually very human in that regard and something I can identify with when I am at my most emotionally fragile. For Kale, Caulifla represents an anchor and a strength and when we humans have our anchors potentially threatened we react violently, as Kale does. But throughout the tournament and the maturation of her bond with Caulifla through their battles together we see Kale mature into someone capable of standing on her own emotionally. She buys into the image of Caulifla and what she means to her and understands so thoroughly what she needs to do to be able to pay Caulifla back that Kale's heart strengthens and she is able to learn to stand on her own two feet. Nagamine Tatsuya and Nakamura Ryouta took the character they were told to do something with and expanded on her character as best they could with their limited production time. They gave Kale human dimension to help justify executive mandates while also creating a character and pairing that was original to the franchise while also playing into Toriyama's usual philosophy of creating characters in pairs so as to better deliver to the consumer a characters' personality.

The Kale and Caulifla duo is simultaneously the most Dragon Ball and most unlike Dragon Ball pairing and that's what makes them so great. I definitely hope that they get their own TV series someday.
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Re: Is Toei’s Kale supposed to have a crush on Caulifla?

Post by Doctor. » Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:40 pm

JulieYBM wrote:The quality wouldn't be as high as it is if the creators of these works were being cynical businessmen.
Yes, that's what you say. Then you turn around and realize the sad truth that dozens of virtually identical shows about cute girls with strangely close relationships are being released every season. It's kinda hard to say for certain they're doing it to push a certain message or vision when we know for a fact that pandering to otaku works and a lot of animators in the industry are otaku themselves who just like to draw cute girls.
Let's break Kale down: Kale is a cute girl character, shy, but also protective and needy. She has self-esteem issues and views anyone approaching her most dear person as a personal challenge. People who feel the arrival of others into their dynamic with another person feel that way because they have little of their own identity to refrain from giving into irrational impulses that make them make rash decisions, such as when Kale would attack Cabba and Son Gokuu for winning Caulifla's attention. Kale is actually very human in that regard and something I can identify with when I am at my most emotionally fragile. For Kale, Caulifla represents an anchor and a strength and when we humans have our anchors potentially threatened we react violently, as Kale does. But throughout the tournament and the maturation of her bond with Caulifla through their battles together we see Kale mature into someone capable of standing on her own emotionally. She buys into the image of Caulifla and what she means to her and understands so thoroughly what she needs to do to be able to pay Caulifla back that Kale's heart strengthens and she is able to learn to stand on her own two feet. Nagamine Tatsuya and Nakamura Ryouta took the character they were told to do something with and expanded on her character as best they could with their limited production time. They gave Kale human dimension to help justify executive mandates while also creating a character and pairing that was original to the franchise while also playing into Toriyama's usual philosophy of creating characters in pairs so as to better deliver to the consumer a characters' personality.

The Kale and Caulifla duo is simultaneously the most Dragon Ball and most unlike Dragon Ball pairing and that's what makes them so great. I definitely hope that they get their own TV series someday.
Kale is a generic archetype that has been done hundreds of times over not only in other Shounen battle anime, but in other anime and manga in general. She was given the most linear and predictable character arc possible as an excuse to give her screentime and market the three things that make her marketable: her shy and timid demeanor which otaku eat up for breakfast; the allusion to potential romantic feelings for Caulifla in order to appeal, again, to those same otaku; and her Broly transformation in order to capture the general audience that grew up with the original series. She is neither interesting nor original and she serves no purpose in the series she's in other than being a poorly done marketing gimmick that lesser shows use all the time in order to sell and gain popularity.

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Re: Is Toei’s Kale supposed to have a crush on Caulifla?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:58 pm

Doctor. wrote:
JulieYBM wrote:The quality wouldn't be as high as it is if the creators of these works were being cynical businessmen.
Yes, that's what you say. Then you turn around and realize the sad truth that dozens of virtually identical shows about cute girls with strangely close relationships are being released every season. It's kinda hard to say for certain they're doing it to push a certain message or vision when we know for a fact that pandering to otaku works and a lot of animators in the industry are otaku themselves who just like to draw cute girls.
Cute girls being drawn and written by people who like cute girls and having entertaining and fulfilling character arcs that are reflections of the feelings of their creators? Woah, too unreal.

Do the executives at Bandai and Toei Animation have money to make? Yes. Are they going to try to fund works that make them said money? Yes. Nobody gives a shit about what those executives think, though. They care about the creators making these works and how they feel. That's where the human connection lies, not only as we see in the fruits of their labor but also in interviews and social media posts.
Doctor. wrote:Kale is a generic archetype that has been done hundreds of times over not only in other Shounen battle anime, but in other anime and manga in general. She was given the most linear and predictable character arc possible as an excuse to give her screentime and market the three things that make her marketable: her shy and timid demeanor which otaku eat up for breakfast; the allusion to potential romantic feelings for Caulifla in order to appeal, again, to those same otaku; and her Broly transformation in order to capture the general audience that grew up with the original series. She is neither interesting nor original and she serves no purpose in the series she's in other than being a poorly done marketing gimmick that lesser shows use all the time in order to sell and gain popularity.
naw she entertaining and has a lot of potential to grow and the people who worked on their arc obviously enjoyed it and deserve the chance to refine their work with the character.

Put-upon cynicism of the silliest shit in the world. Stop. Consume and create what you like. Don't crusade any further trying to make a point you're not going to be able to convince anyone of.
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Re: Is Toei’s Kale supposed to have a crush on Caulifla?

Post by ekrolo2 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:09 pm

JulieYBM wrote:Put-upon cynicism of the silliest shit in the world. Stop. Consume and create what you like. Don't crusade any further trying to make a point you're not going to be able to convince anyone of.
While online cynicism is pervasive these days, I myself can attest to subscribing to it, Kale is... Hard to not be cynical about.

Every story has characters who exist to full fil a function, sometimes its a story role, sometimes its a marketing or publicity one,... The list goes on and it's the job of a good story to act as an illusion, to make these roles feel natural along with the sequence of events.

Kale doesn't really accomplish that, she's so obviously just there so Broly can somehow be in the franchise its painful to watch. They try to give her an arc of attaining self esteem but it is so not fit for a tournament where everything is happen with the time span of less than an hour. It makes Thor's arc from the first MCU movie seem masterful by comparison.

It also doesn't help that actual Broly is a thing in main continuity so I just wonder what the point of her is now. The very obvious purpose of her existence is gone!
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Re: Is Toei’s Kale supposed to have a crush on Caulifla?

Post by ShaggyBlanco » Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:17 pm

Doctor. wrote: Kale is a generic archetype that has been done hundreds of times over not only in other Shounen battle anime, but in other anime and manga in general. She was given the most linear and predictable character arc possible as an excuse to give her screentime and market the three things that make her marketable: her shy and timid demeanor which otaku eat up for breakfast; the allusion to potential romantic feelings for Caulifla in order to appeal, again, to those same otaku; and her Broly transformation in order to capture the general audience that grew up with the original series. She is neither interesting nor original and she serves no purpose in the series she's in other than being a poorly done marketing gimmick that lesser shows use all the time in order to sell and gain popularity.
It's actually funny how Manga Kale ended up being a better character by simply not having an "character arc", I mean if you're going to make a character who's only purpose is fanservice then might as well just get to the point. Not to mention that she isn't nearly as annoying

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Re: Is Toei’s Kale supposed to have a crush on Caulifla?

Post by kudo6000 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:40 pm

There were innuendos, sure. Not as apparent as say, Ribrianne's two friends, but there nonetheless. This only applies to the anime, though.

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Re: Is Toei’s Kale supposed to have a crush on Caulifla?

Post by Simere » Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:00 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
JulieYBM wrote:Put-upon cynicism of the silliest shit in the world. Stop. Consume and create what you like. Don't crusade any further trying to make a point you're not going to be able to convince anyone of.
While online cynicism is pervasive these days, I myself can attest to subscribing to it, Kale is... Hard to not be cynical about.

Every story has characters who exist to full fil a function, sometimes its a story role, sometimes its a marketing or publicity one,... The list goes on and it's the job of a good story to act as an illusion, to make these roles feel natural along with the sequence of events.

Kale doesn't really accomplish that, she's so obviously just there so Broly can somehow be in the franchise its painful to watch. They try to give her an arc of attaining self esteem but it is so not fit for a tournament where everything is happen with the time span of less than an hour. It makes Thor's arc from the first MCU movie seem masterful by comparison.

It also doesn't help that actual Broly is a thing in main continuity so I just wonder what the point of her is now. The very obvious purpose of her existence is gone!
I don't see the Broly thing, honestly. Obviously they were heavily referencing it, but put into context those scenes make up a small portion of her character. She doesn't need Broly to be non-canon to continue as a character, because she wasn't relying on his character in the ToP. Especially by the end, where her full actualization is symbolized with the erasure of the Broly form.

But Kale's purpose in the anime, as far as I'm concerned, is to make Caulifla a better character. I'd still like Caulifla without Kale; she'd still have a great rapport with Goku, and their dynamic I find far more interesting. Kale actually interfered with that. Twice. Without Kale, though, Caulifla wouldn't have the added dimensions of being a mentor and an extremely supportive friend, which is what makes her a truly memorable character for me. The intensity of her encouragement, and the purity with which she provides it, free of any trace of resentment or envy, is something I rarely see. Especially between peers.

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Re: Is Toei’s Kale supposed to have a crush on Caulifla?

Post by kudo6000 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:05 pm

I don't understand how you can't see it. Kale will forever remain in the shadow of Broly. When casuals have her name mentioned to them, they'll immediately think of her being the, "!FemBroly." Even her design, both in clothing and transformation, is akin to the former Broly.

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Re: Is Toei’s Kale supposed to have a crush on Caulifla?

Post by Simere » Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:10 pm

kudo6000 wrote:I don't understand how you can't see it. Kale will forever remain in the shadow of Broly. When casuals have her name mentioned to them, they'll immediately think of her being the, "!FemBroly." Even her design, both in clothing and transformation, is akin to the former Broly.
Well, casuals are quite filthy, you know? For all I know they skipped to the fight scenes like I often see them bragging about. :P Like I said, obviously they were heavyhanded in their references to Broly, but the majority of Kale's scenes, and the totality of her arc, had nothing to do with him.

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