Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
BlueBasilisk
I Live Here
Posts: 3061
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:58 am

Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by BlueBasilisk » Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:14 pm

ShadowBardock89 wrote:The only things that have changed are Bardock's role as Cassandra to Planet Vegeta's Troy and the existence of his crew (which I am torn over).
I'm not so sure about that:

ricky84
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 546
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:16 pm

Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by ricky84 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:30 pm

#17 wrote:No problem with it or are people bitching that the Chilled stuff isn't canon as well?
No one likes Episode of Bardock
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

precita
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5468
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:10 pm

Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by precita » Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:53 pm

That's the problem. Freeza says even in the manga he met Bardock, he "looks like Goku" and killed him.

If that doesn't happen the whole series is ruined. Did Toriyama, none of the writers at Toei, etc....think of this? Surely they researched the original Bardock special and the Namek saga during development of this new movie. It's not like they all suffered amnesia or memory loss.

Broly's origins being changed is fine because the original movie isn't canon, but Bardock's special is entirely important to the backstory and Freeza thinking Goku looks familiar. The whole goddamn Namek saga will be completely ruined. Toiryama really did turn into the Japanese version of George Lucas.

Man, now I know how Star Wars fans feel. We Dragonball fans are becoming the next Star War fans...why did it have to be like this...

Nickolaidas
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1030
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:56 pm

Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by Nickolaidas » Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:18 pm

precita wrote:The whole goddamn Namek saga will be completely ruined.
Seriously? The entire Namek Saga will be ruined because Frieza casually commenting that Goku reminds him of a nobody he killed on a Tuesday will no longer apply?

It's hyperbolic reactions like those that make me ashamed to call myself a Dragon Ball fan.

If you're pissed because you think that the whole 'karma' thing with Frieza and the Saiyans will no longer apply … seriously, there's no need. The Karma still applies. Frieza kills Saiyan Race. --> Frieza gets wrecked by Saiyan survivors (Goku / Trunks) It doesn't matter if Frieza kills Bardock while he's hugging Gine or while Bardock's about to make an attempt to kill the tyrant - for Frieza it's the same thing. Bardock couldn't do shit to him either way. It's not like an amazing battle between Frieza and Bardock is cancelled or retconned. Frieza literally kills Bardock because the latter stood in the way of the blast blowing up Namek. IT'S NOT EVEN A FREAKIN' FIGHT. Frieza doesn't even bother to speak or learn the guy's name. He's literally a nobody who spoke crap to him and Frieza casually blasted him away. There's no epicness on Bardock's side - only utter humiliation.

Bardock is a useless character in the old special - he can't even hold his ground against Dodoria and the only badass thing he does is beat up nameless mooks. Big deal. Literally everyone on the Z Roster can do this. It's like saying that Dragonball is ruined in a remake because they took out the scene where Krillin makes a futile attack on Cell once the android is perfected. It's not a big deal at all.

A 'big deal' in terms of continuity and lore would be if the new movie shows us that Beerus blew up planet Vegeta and not Frieza (completely changing the relationship between Frieza and the Saiyan Race) or Vegeta being a very polite and good person as a kid (thus screwing his character over).


I for one, welcome the changes they make to the lore. A race being evil for the sake of being evil is very childish and shallow writing, and Toriyama does the series good by showing that not all Saiyans were assholes. Turning Bardock into Jor-El is a good move and makes him a far more important character here than in the old special. In the old special Bardock's useless since A) he doesn't do anything to help Goku and B) does crap against Frieza. Here he's useful because he saves Goku's life by sending him away (thus making him one of the most influencial characters in the lore of the series right next to Frieza since he's indirectly responsible for Goku becoming the savior of the Earth).

And people get pissed with the changes? Seriously?

User avatar
Grimlock
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5633
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Conton City

Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by Grimlock » Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:30 pm

Nickolaidas wrote:It's not like an amazing battle between Frieza and Bardock is cancelled or retconned.
Yes it is. No matter how you want to belittle Bardock's effort, the fact that he stood up against Freeza until the very end IS an awesome moment in and out-universe. And considering it's the only major thing Bardock (tried) did, that is one of the many reasons it cannot be cancelled/retconned. You're taking away his only glory moment, you're taking away his legacy.

Just like Dragon Ball Minus takes away things from Goku and a lot of people agree whenever it's pointed out, this movie might take away a huge thing from Bardock's character and it's at least as bad as what Minus does to Goku for some people. Bardock "dying" without even trying to save his race is utterly terrible in countless ways. Bardock can be the one who sent Goku away at the same time as he tries to save the planet and this is how things must be.
Games - You are weak. Why are you weak?
Dragon Ball Super - *coughes*
Games - Because you lack... Content.

Nickolaidas
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1030
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:56 pm

Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by Nickolaidas » Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:36 pm

Grimlock wrote:You're taking away his only glory moment, you're taking away his legacy.
His legacy is Goku, not a ki blast which for Frieza was literally a fart in the wind.

User avatar
Bebi Hatchiyack
Regular
Posts: 714
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2017 4:53 pm

Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by Bebi Hatchiyack » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:03 pm

AnimeNation101 wrote:
Dbzk1999 wrote:A) “Becoming”? Why people are acting as if Minus wasn’t “canon” as soon as that chapter was released?

B) Also don’t know why people are acting as if similar events to what happened to the special could happen here. Doesn’t Minus itself take place about a month before freeza destroys planet vegeta? That special is day of its destruction
Well, the lack of a rebellion from Bardock in his iconic armor and the age change are 2 HUGE retcons brought by this trailer. So, according to the trailer, the events of Bardock’s rebellion DONT happen
I will quote myself from the Super Broly topic hope eveyone can also read it, I think you will see a different perspective about the upcoming movie
Bebi Hatchiyack wrote:Why people said that this scene are retconned ?
First trailers doesn't show the final product there is a long time history in movie industry about that case, second given the position of the camera we don't see the troops and Bardock because they are behind the Supernova Death Ball of Frieza and thirdly Bardock should be not so far the surface of planet Bejita maxi the Stratosphere and it appears that Frieza is far from the stratosphere since he can breath in space.

So there is no retcon at all in this scene.

Given the perspective of this scene we mustn't see peoples.

Edit:
Also people consider this
Saiya-jin me, watashi ha kisama wo koroshimasu

User avatar
jjgp1112
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6191
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:15 pm
Location: Georgia (I wish I was in New York)

Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by jjgp1112 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:10 pm

Nickolaidas wrote:
precita wrote:The whole goddamn Namek saga will be completely ruined.
Seriously? The entire Namek Saga will be ruined because Frieza casually commenting that Goku reminds him of a nobody he killed on a Tuesday will no longer apply?

It's hyperbolic reactions like those that make me ashamed to call myself a Dragon Ball fan.
It's precita being precita. He's doing a bit. I'd just tune it out.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
Cold World
"They say assholes grow on trees/But I'm just here to trim the leaves"
"If a girl is over 35 and not married, then she must be nuttier than squirrel shit." - Reverend Pastor Father Uncle Ruckus (no relation)

User avatar
Luso Saiyan
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1305
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:33 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by Luso Saiyan » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:37 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Nickolaidas wrote:It's not like an amazing battle between Frieza and Bardock is cancelled or retconned.
Yes it is.
No. That he made a last stand against Freeza is in the manga. Claiming that it didn't happen or that it's retconned is pure speculation based on out of context trailer shots.

Regarding the OP, since when was the Bardock special canon? It never was. Toriyama referencing two panels from a specific scene doesn't mean the whole special was taken into account for his story. He simply liked it.

User avatar
jjgp1112
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6191
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:15 pm
Location: Georgia (I wish I was in New York)

Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by jjgp1112 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:01 pm

Doctor. wrote:Don't forget retconning Saiyan hair color by canonizing king Vegeta's brown hair.
...but Vegeta already had reddish hair to begin with :|

Did Battle of Gods and RF retcon it too, then?
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
Cold World
"They say assholes grow on trees/But I'm just here to trim the leaves"
"If a girl is over 35 and not married, then she must be nuttier than squirrel shit." - Reverend Pastor Father Uncle Ruckus (no relation)

User avatar
Doctor.
Banned
Posts: 10529
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by Doctor. » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:06 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Don't forget retconning Saiyan hair color by canonizing king Vegeta's brown hair.
...but Vegeta already had reddish hair to begin with :|

Did Battle of Gods and RF retcon it too, then?
Vegeta had reddish hair in the Z anime. It was black in BoG and RF.

User avatar
Baggie_Saiyan
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10211
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:22 pm
Location: Atlantis.

Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:08 pm

Luso Saiyan wrote:Regarding the OP, since when was the Bardock special canon? It never was. Toriyama referencing two panels from a specific scene doesn't mean the whole special was taken into account for his story. He simply liked it.
More to the point, he didn't even write the original special so the George Lucas comparisons seems silly.

User avatar
Luso Saiyan
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1305
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:33 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by Luso Saiyan » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:24 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:More to the point, he didn't even write the original special so the George Lucas comparisons seems silly.
Indeed. I'm yet to understand how any of this relates to George Lucas or is comparable to his work.

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by sintzu » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:39 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Luso Saiyan wrote:Regarding the OP, since when was the Bardock special canon? It never was. Toriyama referencing two panels from a specific scene doesn't mean the whole special was taken into account for his story. He simply liked it.
More to the point, he didn't even write the original special.
If Toriyama wants to re-write the Saiyans' past and retcon Bardock's special that's fine, however, the original manga clearly stated AND showed Bardock standing up to and being killed by Freeza so that one scene needs to be kept as not only is it what made Bardock stand out, it's part of the original manga. It's one thing to retcon and contradict anime only material but the manga is a different story so it's understandable why fans are drawing a red line with it.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

User avatar
zDBZ
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 113
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:19 pm

Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by zDBZ » Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:35 pm

Nickolaidas wrote:Bardock is a useless character in the old special - he can't even hold his ground against Dodoria and the only badass thing he does is beat up nameless mooks. Big deal. Literally everyone on the Z Roster can do this. It's like saying that Dragonball is ruined in a remake because they took out the scene where Krillin makes a futile attack on Cell once the android is perfected. It's not a big deal at all.

...

I for one, welcome the changes they make to the lore. A race being evil for the sake of being evil is very childish and shallow writing, and Toriyama does the series good by showing that not all Saiyans were assholes. Turning Bardock into Jor-El is a good move and makes him a far more important character here than in the old special. In the old special Bardock's useless since A) he doesn't do anything to help Goku and B) does crap against Frieza. Here he's useful because he saves Goku's life by sending him away (thus making him one of the most influencial characters in the lore of the series right next to Frieza since he's indirectly responsible for Goku becoming the savior of the Earth).
Well, for quite a few of us (and I'm quoting from Dragon Ball Dissection here) what makes Bardock special is that he's not special. The psychic powers given to him in the last days of his life and his desperate efforts to protect his people from the betrayal of their master give his story pathos and tragedy, but he ultimately isn't anything more than another Saiyan warrior, ruthless and mercenary, who abides by his society's standards of worth and so writes off his unimpressive offspring. Bardock realizing, in his last moments of life, that that no-account son of his will be the one to do what he couldn't was a fitting end for him, and tied into two of the themes of the Saiyan saga's battle between Goku and Vegeta - that the low-level outcast could prove to be better, in every way, than the Saiyan ideal, and that somebody as pure as Goku could come from as terrible a background as the Saiyan race through chance. These things made Bardock an interesting character, and made his story something unique to Dragon Ball and an original interpretation of a classical tragedy.

Turning Bardock into a Jor-El figure who plans for Goku's future might make him into a more morally upright character, but it's far more derivative than anything in the original special and turns Bardock into a cliched figure, made less special by efforts to make him special. When it comes to Bardock himself, quality is the issue for me, not canonicity. Toriyama doing his own take on Bardock is, in principle, fine. But what he came up with was less interesting than the special the character came from in the first place and owed too much to another property. Issues of canon only matter when it comes to undermining the themes underlying Goku's character, not Bardock's.

User avatar
#17
Newbie
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:55 pm

Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by #17 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:24 pm

Can someone explain the outrage?

The one panel Todiyama put in the manga was the last stand of Bardock... I repeat the one single panel from the whole TV special.

This single panel has nothing to do with Minus being canon (which it always was) cuz it easily still could have happened /can happen

precita
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5468
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:10 pm

Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by precita » Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:53 pm

The controversy is in the trailer Bardock and the Freeza soldiers aren't in space as Freeza throws down his Death ball on Planet Vegeta.

So like the entire epic point of Bardock's character, and Freeza recognizing him in the manga, along with the karma of Goku defeating Freeza on Namek...will be lost. Besides that, where the heck is Bardock then? If he's just on Planet Vegeta with Gine when it's destroyed...isn't that anti-climatic? So instead of Bardock going out in a great (if futile) attempt to stop Freeza...he's just going to go out like a nobody?

It ruins 20+ years of history. I mean it's worse than any retcon we've ever had. It makes me sick thinking about it. I can't believe people are ok with this, people should be outraged.

ricky84
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 546
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:16 pm

Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by ricky84 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:03 pm

zDBZ wrote:
Nickolaidas wrote:Bardock is a useless character in the old special - he can't even hold his ground against Dodoria and the only badass thing he does is beat up nameless mooks. Big deal. Literally everyone on the Z Roster can do this. It's like saying that Dragonball is ruined in a remake because they took out the scene where Krillin makes a futile attack on Cell once the android is perfected. It's not a big deal at all.

...

I for one, welcome the changes they make to the lore. A race being evil for the sake of being evil is very childish and shallow writing, and Toriyama does the series good by showing that not all Saiyans were assholes. Turning Bardock into Jor-El is a good move and makes him a far more important character here than in the old special. In the old special Bardock's useless since A) he doesn't do anything to help Goku and B) does crap against Frieza. Here he's useful because he saves Goku's life by sending him away (thus making him one of the most influencial characters in the lore of the series right next to Frieza since he's indirectly responsible for Goku becoming the savior of the Earth).
Well, for quite a few of us (and I'm quoting from Dragon Ball Dissection here) what makes Bardock special is that he's not special. The psychic powers given to him in the last days of his life and his desperate efforts to protect his people from the betrayal of their master give his story pathos and tragedy, but he ultimately isn't anything more than another Saiyan warrior, ruthless and mercenary, who abides by his society's standards of worth and so writes off his unimpressive offspring. Bardock realizing, in his last moments of life, that that no-account son of his will be the one to do what he couldn't was a fitting end for him, and tied into two of the themes of the Saiyan saga's battle between Goku and Vegeta - that the low-level outcast could prove to be better, in every way, than the Saiyan ideal, and that somebody as pure as Goku could come from as terrible a background as the Saiyan race through chance. These things made Bardock an interesting character, and made his story something unique to Dragon Ball and an original interpretation of a classical tragedy.

Turning Bardock into a Jor-El figure who plans for Goku's future might make him into a more morally upright character, but it's far more derivative than anything in the original special and turns Bardock into a cliched figure, made less special by efforts to make him special. When it comes to Bardock himself, quality is the issue for me, not canonicity. Toriyama doing his own take on Bardock is, in principle, fine. But what he came up with was less interesting than the special the character came from in the first place and owed too much to another property. Issues of canon only matter when it comes to undermining the themes underlying Goku's character, not Bardock's.
You explained the problem with the changes better than everyone else. Great post.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

User avatar
FortuneSSJ
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5317
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:07 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by FortuneSSJ » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:35 pm

Toriyama insists saying Goku is not a typical superhero and that's why he didn't like his portrayal in Toei Movies, and then proceeds to make his backstory exactly the same than Superman.
I will never understand that man.
A world without Dragon Ball is just meh.

User avatar
Kaiza_Toshiyuki
Temporarily Banned
Posts: 262
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:32 pm
Location: South Carolina

Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by Kaiza_Toshiyuki » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:42 pm

For those of you dont understand how a misleading trailer works, let me give you an example.

This Image is from the trailer for Thor Ragnarok
This Image is from the actual movie
You see how they kept thor's lost eye hidden so it was still a surprise when the movie came out. I wouldn't put it past them to pull this kind of thing on the fandom. Not to mention this scene could be un-finished. It might have Bardock's Rebellion still happen.
FortuneSSJ wrote:Toriyama insists saying Goku is not a typical superhero and that's why he didn't like his portrayal in Toei Movies, and then proceeds to make his backstory exactly the same than Superman.
I will never understand that man.
Well, there is a very distinct difference. Superman already had the power of a God when he landed on earth. Goku was a low class warrior, a weakling, had to work hard and earn his power.

Post Reply