Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

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Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by FortuneSSJ » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:48 pm

Kaiza_Toshiyuki wrote:
FortuneSSJ wrote:Toriyama insists saying Goku is not a typical superhero and that's why he didn't like his portrayal in Toei Movies, and then proceeds to make his backstory exactly the same than Superman.
I will never understand that man.
Well, there is a very distinct difference. Superman already had the power of a God when he landed on earth. Goku was a low class warrior, a weakling, had to work hard and earn his power.
In before, Toriyama says Goku is descended from Yamoshi since they are already playing the destiny card.
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Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by Simere » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:53 pm

FortuneSSJ wrote:Toriyama insists saying Goku is not a typical superhero and that's why he didn't like his portrayal in Toei Movies, and then proceeds to make his backstory exactly the same than Superman.
I will never understand that man.
It's probably because he thinks a character coming off like a superhero comes down to their motivations and personality, not their origin.

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Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by Kaiza_Toshiyuki » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:53 pm

FortuneSSJ wrote:
Kaiza_Toshiyuki wrote:
FortuneSSJ wrote:Toriyama insists saying Goku is not a typical superhero and that's why he didn't like his portrayal in Toei Movies, and then proceeds to make his backstory exactly the same than Superman.
I will never understand that man.
Well, there is a very distinct difference. Superman already had the power of a God when he landed on earth. Goku was a low class warrior, a weakling, had to work hard and earn his power.
In before, Toriyama says Goku is descended from Yamoshi since they are already playing the destiny card.
If you don´t mind, I´d like to see proof of toriyama stating this. Not that I don´t trust your credibility, its just that misinformation spreads like wild fire in the dragon ball fandom. Better just to be on the safe side.

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Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by FortuneSSJ » Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:01 pm

Simere wrote:
FortuneSSJ wrote:Toriyama insists saying Goku is not a typical superhero and that's why he didn't like his portrayal in Toei Movies, and then proceeds to make his backstory exactly the same than Superman.
I will never understand that man.
It's probably because he thinks a character coming off like a superhero comes down to their motivations and personality, not their origin.
If you don't want your character to be seen as a typical superhero, you don't make his backstory exactly the same than the most well known superhero.
A world without Dragon Ball is just meh.

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Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by Shaddy » Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:36 pm

Actually if you don't want your character to seem like a superhero, you don't make them act like a superhero. You know, like the old Funi dub.

Nothing about the backstory matters. It is, and always will be, how the character is written. This is why Bleach's shitty flashbacks didn't make any of it's characters less wooden.
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Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by lancerman » Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:25 pm

zDBZ wrote:
lancerman wrote:The original Bardock special was no more canon than the Broly or Cooler movies lol. Aside from one panel in the manga, that's the only thing about it. And honestly, I get that it was popular with fans, but it was otherwise irrelevant from a canon perspective. Not to mention this definitively gets rid of the crappy Episode of Bardock. I get that people liked the Bardock special, but this looks like overall it's better for the lore of the actual main characters. I wouldn't avoid that to service a popular secondary character whose whole appeal is based off a non canon special
Except that said non-canon special is the only reason Bardock exists in the first place. And, by the nature of its classical tragic storyline, the special doesn't easily lend itself to any sort of continuation or expansion. Bardock appearing in this movie, "Episode of Bardock," Minus itself - these are the fanservice. They're all part of the mindset of "everyone loves that character, so let's do more with him!" - even when that character, in his original incarnation, was given a very definite end to his story.
Is it really anymore fanservice than "hey lets make Goku's father a badass whose battle power is one of the things that gives Freeza pause and is the person to make the last stand against Freeza". Because that's pretty "fanservicey" to take the main character's dad and give him a role like that after the fact.

There's no reason Toriyama can't just take the fact that Goku would have a biological father and use the established name and look (which is basically Goku's look) and retcon it for what he wants the canon to be.

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Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by lancerman » Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:28 pm

TheOne wrote:
dragon boss z wrote:
precita wrote:What a waste. The original Bardock special, along with the flashbacks of Freeza knocking out King Vegeta on his ship, and destroying Bardock and his team is no longer canon? So what happened to Bardock's team? Do they no longer exist, the ones Dodoria killed?

Bardock will no longer fight Freeza in space before he gets killed? Ugh, I hate Dragonball Minus becoming canon. Toriyama is going "George Lucas" with the series.
That special was never fully "canon", and it's been retconned since dragon ball minus which came out years ago. This isn't new. However Frieza's design is different which is weird.
It’s still frustrating though. If someone was to watch the entire dragon ball series, all the way up to the Broly movie (including bardock and history of Trunks) they would be confused as heck watching all these retcons.
Would they really? Because even as a kid I was pretty much convinced that the movies and villains like Cooler, Broly, Janemba were just side things that didn't actually fit into the story. I don't see why the Bardock special has to be any different.

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Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by lancerman » Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:35 pm

sintzu wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Luso Saiyan wrote:Regarding the OP, since when was the Bardock special canon? It never was. Toriyama referencing two panels from a specific scene doesn't mean the whole special was taken into account for his story. He simply liked it.
More to the point, he didn't even write the original special.
If Toriyama wants to re-write the Saiyans' past and retcon Bardock's special that's fine, however, the original manga clearly stated AND showed Bardock standing up to and being killed by Freeza so that one scene needs to be kept as not only is it what made Bardock stand out, it's part of the original manga. It's one thing to retcon and contradict anime only material but the manga is a different story so it's understandable why fans are drawing a red line with it.
Actually the original manga only states that Goku looks like a Saiyan that Freeza killed when he destroyed Vegeta. Aside from a movie that was never canon to begin with, there really isn't a reason it has to be Bardock, or if it is Bardock, why it has to go down at all like how it did in the special.

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Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by zDBZ » Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:59 am

lancerman wrote:
zDBZ wrote:
lancerman wrote:The original Bardock special was no more canon than the Broly or Cooler movies lol. Aside from one panel in the manga, that's the only thing about it. And honestly, I get that it was popular with fans, but it was otherwise irrelevant from a canon perspective. Not to mention this definitively gets rid of the crappy Episode of Bardock. I get that people liked the Bardock special, but this looks like overall it's better for the lore of the actual main characters. I wouldn't avoid that to service a popular secondary character whose whole appeal is based off a non canon special
Except that said non-canon special is the only reason Bardock exists in the first place. And, by the nature of its classical tragic storyline, the special doesn't easily lend itself to any sort of continuation or expansion. Bardock appearing in this movie, "Episode of Bardock," Minus itself - these are the fanservice. They're all part of the mindset of "everyone loves that character, so let's do more with him!" - even when that character, in his original incarnation, was given a very definite end to his story.
Is it really anymore fanservice than "hey lets make Goku's father a badass whose battle power is one of the things that gives Freeza pause and is the person to make the last stand against Freeza". Because that's pretty "fanservicey" to take the main character's dad and give him a role like that after the fact.

There's no reason Toriyama can't just take the fact that Goku would have a biological father and use the established name and look (which is basically Goku's look) and retcon it for what he wants the canon to be.
To quote from Dragon Ball Dissection again, the original Bardock special went against the usual pitfalls of that kind of story at nearly every turn. Bardock's team's success in conquering Kanassa gives Freeza pause, yes - but that conversation implies that this has been a concern for some time, and the only name mentioned is Vegeta's - Bardock and his team are still nameless low-level warriors. Bardock is unusually strong for a low-level warrior and can handle Freeza's soldiers, but he's powerless against the likes of Dodoria, however "badass" he might be. He's given clairvoyance and makes a final stand against Freeza, but his powers do nothing but torture him, and his last stand is a futile gesture, brushed away by Freeza with a mere flick. He becomes nothing but a vague memory in Freeza's mind of a nameless Saiyan. Nothing about Bardock, in-universe, is special, and that's what makes his story special in this franchise, and what keeps the original Bardock special from being a big pile of fanservice celebrating how awesome and special Goku is because his dad happened to be awesome and special.

And as I said before, there's no reason Toriyama can't tell his own version of the Bardock story. The problem isn't that he did that; the problem is that his version is bad.

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Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by sintzu » Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:25 am

FortuneSSJ wrote:If you don't want your character to be seen as a typical superhero, you don't make his backstory exactly the same than the most well known superhero.
So Bardock and Gine will be getting shot in an alley and Goku will swear to avenge them ? :shock:
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Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by HybridSaiyan » Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:33 am

The more modern Dragon ball continues, the more the OG story gets ruined and retconned. Basically Goku's origin was a lie at this point lol. Nothing Is consistent, Toriyama and Toei are always tweeking and twisting things that was already written on paper. What's next, nappa gonna be the same age as Goku and Vegeta now?

The relationship between Bardock and his crew better be relevant In this retconned movie. I'm only going to watch for the fights :/

And for those saying the Bardock special Isn't canon anymore just cus this movie Is coming out; that highkey means there's a chance the History of Trunks aint canon either. Toriyama gonna retcon the events in that sooner or later

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Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by BlueBasilisk » Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:50 am

HybridSaiyan wrote: And for those saying the Bardock special Isn't canon anymore just cus this movie Is coming out; that highkey means there's a chance the History of Trunks aint canon either. Toriyama gonna retcon the events in that sooner or later
Toriyama wrote that story ages ago and it does contradict The History of Trunks. Young Future Trunks was already a Super Saiyan before Gohan died.

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Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by Zillamon51 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:15 am

It's always been fairly well accepted that while the movies aren't canon, the Bardock and Trunks specials are (they don't contradict anything, and Toriyama apparently "liked" them).

It's just a lesson: This fanbase has been obsessed with "canon" for as long as I can remember. But it was all for nought. There is no DB "canon." And there never was. This has always been a franchise made up on the fly, for the amusement of undemanding children.

Both Toriyama and Toei will continue to Lucas this thing. You know, like they always have. I don't like them retconning Bardock, but it is what it is.
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Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by Zillamon51 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:30 am

A lot of fans were quick to embrace nonsense like Yamoshi and S-cells, as a display of fealty to the mighty Toriyama. Just Saiyan. Will this be a step too far? By the time the movie comes out, I doubt it.

The reason this trailer is such an info dump is a pragmatic one: Let the fans get used to it. Let people adjust. Then they can go into the movie with clearer minds and managed expectations, and are likely to enjoy it more. It's the same reason we're seeing so many pictures of Joaquin Phoenix as the Joker, when that movie is still a year away. It's so the opening weekend buzz isn't dominated by "Hiz makeup sucks!!1."

BTW, it would be very easy to add Bardock and co. to the scene of Frieza wrecking the planet. They may have just thought a "clean" shot would be more epic for the trailer. Just Saiyan.
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Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:42 am

Zillamon51 wrote:It's always been fairly well accepted that while the movies aren't canon, the Bardock and Trunks specials are (they don't contradict anything, and Toriyama apparently "liked" them).

It's just a lesson: This fanbase has been obsessed with "canon" for as long as I can remember. But it was all for nought. There is no DB "canon." And there never was. This has always been a franchise made up on the fly, for the amusement of undemanding children.

Both Toriyama and Toei will continue to Lucas this thing. You know, like they always have. I don't like them retconning Bardock, but it is what it is.
I'd say Toriyama has thoroughly managed to out-stupid Lucas, by a country mile too. He's more or less destroyed anything of substantive worth concerning Goku or Vegeta if you ask me, they're basically western comic book tripe at this point.
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Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by ricky84 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:22 pm

HybridSaiyan wrote:The more modern Dragon ball continues, the more the OG story gets ruined and retconned. Basically Goku's origin was a lie at this point lol. Nothing Is consistent, Toriyama and Toei are always tweeking and twisting things that was already written on paper. What's next, nappa gonna be the same age as Goku and Vegeta now?

The relationship between Bardock and his crew better be relevant In this retconned movie. I'm only going to watch for the fights :/

And for those saying the Bardock special Isn't canon anymore just cus this movie Is coming out; that highkey means there's a chance the History of Trunks aint canon either. Toriyama gonna retcon the events in that sooner or later
The History of Trunks anime was never canon. In the original manga version, F.Trunks was already a SSJ before Gohan died.
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Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by ricky84 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:25 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
Zillamon51 wrote:It's always been fairly well accepted that while the movies aren't canon, the Bardock and Trunks specials are (they don't contradict anything, and Toriyama apparently "liked" them).

It's just a lesson: This fanbase has been obsessed with "canon" for as long as I can remember. But it was all for nought. There is no DB "canon." And there never was. This has always been a franchise made up on the fly, for the amusement of undemanding children.

Both Toriyama and Toei will continue to Lucas this thing. You know, like they always have. I don't like them retconning Bardock, but it is what it is.
I'd say Toriyama has thoroughly managed to out-stupid Lucas, by a country mile too. He's more or less destroyed anything of substantive worth concerning Goku or Vegeta if you ask me, they're basically western comic book tripe at this point.
How? Their backstories have little to do with who they naturally are as characters. How the hell is Goku's character "ruined" when his core character/personality has zero to do with the reasons why he was sent to Earth?
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by ricky84 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:31 pm

Zillamon51 wrote:A lot of fans were quick to embrace nonsense like Yamoshi and S-cells, as a display of fealty to the mighty Toriyama. Just Saiyan. Will this be a step too far? By the time the movie comes out, I doubt it.

The reason this trailer is such an info dump is a pragmatic one: Let the fans get used to it. Let people adjust. Then they can go into the movie with clearer minds and managed expectations, and are likely to enjoy it more. It's the same reason we're seeing so many pictures of Joaquin Phoenix as the Joker, when that movie is still a year away. It's so the opening weekend buzz isn't dominated by "Hiz makeup sucks!!1."

BTW, it would be very easy to add Bardock and co. to the scene of Frieza wrecking the planet. They may have just thought a "clean" shot would be more epic for the trailer. Just Saiyan.
S-Cells don't contradict anything we've seen in the original series. Western fans just hate it when writers put bio-deterministic explanations in fantasy/sci-fi stories (there doesn't seem to be any major backlash from Japanese fans concerning S-Cells).

And was wrong with the Yamoshi story? It adds a lot to the lore of the saiyan race and doesn't clash with the original manga.
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Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by ricky84 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:34 pm

FortuneSSJ wrote:
Simere wrote:
FortuneSSJ wrote:Toriyama insists saying Goku is not a typical superhero and that's why he didn't like his portrayal in Toei Movies, and then proceeds to make his backstory exactly the same than Superman.
I will never understand that man.
It's probably because he thinks a character coming off like a superhero comes down to their motivations and personality, not their origin.
If you don't want your character to be seen as a typical superhero, you don't make his backstory exactly the same than the most well known superhero.
Goku doesn't act like a typical superhero regardless of his backstory. Personality wise, he's far away from Superman as you can get.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:35 pm

ricky84 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
Zillamon51 wrote:It's always been fairly well accepted that while the movies aren't canon, the Bardock and Trunks specials are (they don't contradict anything, and Toriyama apparently "liked" them).

It's just a lesson: This fanbase has been obsessed with "canon" for as long as I can remember. But it was all for nought. There is no DB "canon." And there never was. This has always been a franchise made up on the fly, for the amusement of undemanding children.

Both Toriyama and Toei will continue to Lucas this thing. You know, like they always have. I don't like them retconning Bardock, but it is what it is.
I'd say Toriyama has thoroughly managed to out-stupid Lucas, by a country mile too. He's more or less destroyed anything of substantive worth concerning Goku or Vegeta if you ask me, they're basically western comic book tripe at this point.
How? Their backstories have little to do with who they naturally are as characters. How the hell is Goku's character "ruined" when his core character/personality has zero to do with the reasons why he was sent to Earth?
Goku isn't directly informed by this Saiyan background but it absolutely adds a lot to him whether he's actually aware of it or not. Goku was once a low-level nobody who was basically designated trash from his birth and was supposed to destroy the Earth, instead, he saves it, befriends the people on it and proves how stupid the Saiyans were in their elitist worldview by beating the crap out of Vegeta, a fact Goku does verbally acknowledge in their battle. It adds not just to his character but to the Saiyan arc as a whole and all of that it so much less interesting now.

I probably wouldn't even care as much if Toriyama 1) didn't make Gine a worthless drone who doesn't even fit the strong-willed criteria Saiyans apparently like and 2) didn't overemphasize the specialness of their relationship.
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