Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Jackalope89
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 886
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:36 pm

Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by Jackalope89 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:44 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
ricky84 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote: I'd say Toriyama has thoroughly managed to out-stupid Lucas, by a country mile too. He's more or less destroyed anything of substantive worth concerning Goku or Vegeta if you ask me, they're basically western comic book tripe at this point.
How? Their backstories have little to do with who they naturally are as characters. How the hell is Goku's character "ruined" when his core character/personality has zero to do with the reasons why he was sent to Earth?
Goku isn't directly informed by this Saiyan background but it absolutely adds a lot to him whether he's actually aware of it or not. Goku was once a low-level nobody who was basically designated trash from his birth and was supposed to destroy the Earth, instead, he saves it, befriends the people on it and proves how stupid the Saiyans were in their elitist worldview by beating the crap out of Vegeta, a fact Goku does verbally acknowledge in their battle. It adds not just to his character but to the Saiyan arc as a whole and all of that it so much less interesting now.

I probably wouldn't even care as much if Toriyama 1) didn't make Gine a worthless drone who doesn't even fit the strong-willed criteria Saiyans apparently like and 2) didn't overemphasize the specialness of their relationship.
Goku was once just a kid with a monkey tail looking for adventure and getting stronger. That got retconned into being from a race of space pirates.

ricky84
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 546
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:16 pm

Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by ricky84 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:49 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
ricky84 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote: I'd say Toriyama has thoroughly managed to out-stupid Lucas, by a country mile too. He's more or less destroyed anything of substantive worth concerning Goku or Vegeta if you ask me, they're basically western comic book tripe at this point.
How? Their backstories have little to do with who they naturally are as characters. How the hell is Goku's character "ruined" when his core character/personality has zero to do with the reasons why he was sent to Earth?
Goku isn't directly informed by this Saiyan background but it absolutely adds a lot to him whether he's actually aware of it or not. Goku was once a low-level nobody who was basically designated trash from his birth and was supposed to destroy the Earth, instead, he saves it, befriends the people on it and proves how stupid the Saiyans were in their elitist worldview by beating the crap out of Vegeta, a fact Goku does verbally acknowledge in their battle. It adds not just to his character but to the Saiyan arc as a whole and all of that it so much less interesting now.

I probably wouldn't even care as much if Toriyama 1) didn't make Gine a worthless drone who doesn't even fit the strong-willed criteria Saiyans apparently like and 2) didn't overemphasize the specialness of their relationship.
Goku is still a low class nobody even in DB Minus, same with his parents. So were is the contradiction?
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

User avatar
Doctor.
Banned
Posts: 10529
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by Doctor. » Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:50 pm

Jackalope89 wrote:Goku was once just a kid with a monkey tail looking for adventure and getting stronger. That got retconned into being from a race of space pirates.
There are good retcons and bad retcons. Goku being a Saiyan is a good retcon because it adds to the story and the character. Minus is a bad retcon because it takes away from the story and the character.

I don't know why this is so difficult to understand.

ricky84
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 546
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:16 pm

Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by ricky84 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:52 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Jackalope89 wrote:Goku was once just a kid with a monkey tail looking for adventure and getting stronger. That got retconned into being from a race of space pirates.
There are good retcons and bad retcons. Goku being a Saiyan is a good retcon because it adds to the story and the character. Minus is a bad retcon because it takes away from the story and the character.

I don't know why this is so difficult to understand.
Piccolo being a Namekian instead of a demon was also a good retcon.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

User avatar
ekrolo2
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7812
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:27 am
Location: Split, Croatia

Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:58 pm

ricky84 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
ricky84 wrote:
How? Their backstories have little to do with who they naturally are as characters. How the hell is Goku's character "ruined" when his core character/personality has zero to do with the reasons why he was sent to Earth?
Goku isn't directly informed by this Saiyan background but it absolutely adds a lot to him whether he's actually aware of it or not. Goku was once a low-level nobody who was basically designated trash from his birth and was supposed to destroy the Earth, instead, he saves it, befriends the people on it and proves how stupid the Saiyans were in their elitist worldview by beating the crap out of Vegeta, a fact Goku does verbally acknowledge in their battle. It adds not just to his character but to the Saiyan arc as a whole and all of that it so much less interesting now.

I probably wouldn't even care as much if Toriyama 1) didn't make Gine a worthless drone who doesn't even fit the strong-willed criteria Saiyans apparently like and 2) didn't overemphasize the specialness of their relationship.
Goku is still a low class nobody even in DB Minus, same with his parents. So were is the contradiction?
He's low class but he's not a nobody who no one cares about and treats like disposable trash: he's the special child of a unique Saiyan family who risk themselves to save his life because Bardock read the script and determined Freeza wants to kill his species soon. So yeah, him being a low-class warrior pretty much means nothing since that's not what causes him to get sent to Earth meaning the irony of him saving a planet he was supposed to destroy is gone and his specialness is racked up substantially thanks to Bardock & Gine being hyped up by Toriyama.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):

User avatar
Mister_Popo
Regular
Posts: 616
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:12 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by Mister_Popo » Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:01 pm

What strikes me is that the same people who state that 'canon' not exists, are now bothered by the fact that multiple interpretations are possible for the same storyline. That is contradictory. If you do not accept a canon (which is strange, the word 'canon' has a strange biblical connotation and there has never been a canon officially pronounced but a main timeline determined by author Toriyama is definitely there), then you should open to multiple interpretations of the same storyline. A bit like Battle of God in the anime still had the same story line as the original movie, although the details and execution were different.

If the storyline does not change to that extent, is it a real retcon?
And first and foremost, is there a retcon?
In my view, a retcon is something that changes the story line in its meaning,
nothing that improves the concept.
And sometimes we must also be able to accept that, without dishonoring the original story, some things will be reconsidered 'whether they are so meaningful'. It is not because it is in the original manga, that there is always so much thought about it. Toriyama had to produce in the 80s, now he may have more time to reflect on business. He only has to think about the main story, the execution is done for him, which in a sense can mean an advantage to look at things in a different perspective.
Moreover, I think that we must first have seen the film before we can make that statement.

So with regard to a few of the possible 'retcons':

1. Vegeta that would have the same age as Goku and Broly.
So it is possible that Vegeta is still a bit older.
And that the scene where King Vegeta greets his son in the incubator is a few years before the same scene with Goku and Broly.
In the shot of child Vegeta later in the trailer, he also seems to be a bit older than Goku and Broly.

Should Vegeta have the same age as Goku and Broly at birth ...
Now that I can understand that for the convenience of the story, they have made the choice to give them about the same date of birth. For the synchronization of the story and therefore the further development, it is understandable to tell it departing from the same moment.
For neutral spectators who do not know the details of the story, it is easier to follow.
"They were born about the same time, but they followed a different path until the moment that the fight begins". Yes, strictly speaking it is a change of detail, but not one that I can't understand in function of the story.

2. "Bardock special" makes way for Minus.

Of course Toriyama chooses for the Minus version of Bardock. That is his own version of the story. So if there is already a retcon (the Bardock that appears in the manga is indeed different from that of Minus), then that is anything but new and we know that for a while.
In addition, Toriyama itself has every right to do so. He is currently the author.
Especially if this benefits the story.

Bardock states in the trailer 'that there is not much time because Freeza is planning something'.
This does indeed point to the fact that he is planning something in the face of a 'rebellion' to counter Freeza's plan. Now in the original manga, that rebellion is portrayed as being Bardock and the other Saiyan fighters who simply confront Freeza directly. This is actually stupid, meaningless and in a sense 'little realistic'. Freeza's power level and that of his brigadiers is much more superior than that of Bardock and co. It is pointless for Bardock to waste his life in such a way and Planet Vegeta and Saiyan's fate isn't helped wit this. We have to wait for the details of the script. But it could be that Bardock is planning something more intelligent to prevent Freeza. A bit like the tactics of resistance fighters during the war. Through a sophisticated plan, which ultimately was not successful because Freeza was too strong and ruthless, try something. A form of more intelligent rebellion, as it were. I would actually find that a more interesting script than that of the original manga. The fact that Freeza remembers physically as a rebel in the original manga Bardock would still be true in a sense, even though it happened in a different way.

3. Freeza has a different color in its basic form.

Is that really a retcon? Freeza has already changed so much. In addition, this pink version seems better on the original version Toriyama intended. That is the intention of this film, going back closer to the intentions of Toriyama. This does not bother me at all, and he looks okay like that.

There are enough elements in the trailer that refer to elements from the past, such as the Ginyu Force, Planet Vegeta, King Vegeta ... who we all know, tied to an all new story in the present. The rerference to the elements of the past maybe just is what gives this movie its strong content. The film will, because of these noastalgia and moreover thanks to its excellent animation and past-present-tier story elements, bring an extra value to the original manga.
Last edited by Mister_Popo on Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:27 pm, edited 3 times in total.

ricky84
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 546
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:16 pm

Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by ricky84 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:05 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
ricky84 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote: Goku isn't directly informed by this Saiyan background but it absolutely adds a lot to him whether he's actually aware of it or not. Goku was once a low-level nobody who was basically designated trash from his birth and was supposed to destroy the Earth, instead, he saves it, befriends the people on it and proves how stupid the Saiyans were in their elitist worldview by beating the crap out of Vegeta, a fact Goku does verbally acknowledge in their battle. It adds not just to his character but to the Saiyan arc as a whole and all of that it so much less interesting now.

I probably wouldn't even care as much if Toriyama 1) didn't make Gine a worthless drone who doesn't even fit the strong-willed criteria Saiyans apparently like and 2) didn't overemphasize the specialness of their relationship.
Goku is still a low class nobody even in DB Minus, same with his parents. So were is the contradiction?
He's low class but he's not a nobody who no one cares about and treats like disposable trash: he's the special child of a unique Saiyan family who risk themselves to save his life because Bardock read the script and determined Freeza wants to kill his species soon. So yeah, him being a low-class warrior pretty much means nothing since that's not what causes him to get sent to Earth meaning the irony of him saving a planet he was supposed to destroy is gone and his specialness is racked up substantially thanks to Bardock & Gine being hyped up by Toriyama.
Goku being essentially "special" was inevitable since he's the protagonist and considering how far he's gotten compared to the rest of his race. There's no way Goku would have accomplished as much as he has if he wasn't "destined" in some way.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

User avatar
ekrolo2
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7812
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:27 am
Location: Split, Croatia

Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:09 pm

ricky84 wrote:Goku being essentially "special" was inevitable since he's the protagonist and considering how far he's gotten compared to the rest of his race. There's no way Goku would have accomplished as much as he has if he wasn't "destined" in some way.
Of course, like anything in a story, Goku gets as far as he does because the story needs him to, like any story ever in the history of mankind and just like any other story, its the purpose of the storyteller to make you forget this and get invested in characters & plots. To make things feel like they come from a place that's natural for the character or decisions to make sense for who they're coming from. Which is why when you establish that Goku is a worthless nobody no one ever cared about, who was supposed to kill everyone who ends up being his friend and/or family into a special, unique love child of a special Saiyan bond to save his life, the illusion is broken and the reader is understandably annoyed by this.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):

ricky84
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 546
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:16 pm

Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by ricky84 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:20 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
ricky84 wrote:Goku being essentially "special" was inevitable since he's the protagonist and considering how far he's gotten compared to the rest of his race. There's no way Goku would have accomplished as much as he has if he wasn't "destined" in some way.
Of course, like anything in a story, Goku gets as far as he does because the story needs him to, like any story ever in the history of mankind and just like any other story, its the purpose of the storyteller to make you forget this and get invested in characters & plots. To make things feel like they come from a place that's natural for the character or decisions to make sense for who they're coming from. Which is why when you establish that Goku is a worthless nobody no one ever cared about, who was supposed to kill everyone who ends up being his friend and/or family into a special, unique love child of a special Saiyan bond to save his life, the illusion is broken and the reader is understandably annoyed by this.
You just undermined your entire complaint lmao.

Again, the reasons why Goku was sent to Earth in the first place have little to do with who he is as a character. Either way, Goku is still Goku personality wise.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

User avatar
ekrolo2
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7812
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:27 am
Location: Split, Croatia

Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:25 pm

ricky84 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
ricky84 wrote:Goku being essentially "special" was inevitable since he's the protagonist and considering how far he's gotten compared to the rest of his race. There's no way Goku would have accomplished as much as he has if he wasn't "destined" in some way.
Of course, like anything in a story, Goku gets as far as he does because the story needs him to, like any story ever in the history of mankind and just like any other story, its the purpose of the storyteller to make you forget this and get invested in characters & plots. To make things feel like they come from a place that's natural for the character or decisions to make sense for who they're coming from. Which is why when you establish that Goku is a worthless nobody no one ever cared about, who was supposed to kill everyone who ends up being his friend and/or family into a special, unique love child of a special Saiyan bond to save his life, the illusion is broken and the reader is understandably annoyed by this.
You just undermined your entire complaint lmao.

Again, the reasons why Goku was sent to Earth in the first place have little to do with who he is as a character. Either way, Goku is still Goku personality wise.
No, I'm just pointing out how stupid it is to use a basic story fact as a defense or complaint. It's why "because plot" drives me up a well as a sort of critique because EVERYTHING in a story happens because of the plot, that's like saying the sky is blue! I also explained why its the job of a good storyteller to make you forget this, it's why everyone drivels on and on about "character-driven" stories which are just covering up plot necessary events through character actions well.

As I already explained, Goku's not directly affected by this stuff as a person but as a viewer, it absolutely does cast a light on what Goku is versus what he was supposed to be. Just because it exists more for the viewer to get invested in him over directly affecting Goku himself doesn't make it any less worthwhile of an aspect to his character.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):

User avatar
LightBing
I Live Here
Posts: 3468
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:47 am

Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by LightBing » Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:34 pm

Guys the truth is that Goku is only alive because of a piss joke and that's what Mr.Toriyama wants all of us to remember. :thumbup:

Regarding the retcons in general it's mostly improvements in my opinion. A race of people being presented exactly the same is bad writing, Freeza's one month plan is actually sound when killing a race of space faring conquerors, I always scratched my head how he got there and most Saiyans were home in the special.

Goku being saved not by coincidence/luck and instead by actions are a huge improvement. Finally Goku would still destroy Earth or try, it was in his nature and that only changed after hitting his head, that bit hasn't changed.

User avatar
Mister_Popo
Regular
Posts: 616
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:12 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by Mister_Popo » Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:44 pm

[quote="LightBing"

Regarding the retcons in general it's mostly improvements in my opinion. A race of people being presented exactly the same is bad writing, Freeza's one month plan is actually sound when killing a race of space faring conquerors, I always scratched my head how he got there and most Saiyans were home in the special.

[/quote]

Bullseye. Some people automatically think 'the story has changed, how could they do it, changes are bad', without thinking any further. One should first have seen the movie, in order to place it in a meaningful perspective storywise. A story isn't something static, it's alive and sensible to subtle changes. Because authors rethink details during the course of time, in change for the better.

User avatar
SaiyanGod117
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1226
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:31 am

Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:50 pm

Bullza wrote:That old special wasn't very good so maybe they want to replace it with something better this time.
You’re joking right, because Minus whether by itself or conjoined with the manga is a generic subpar story.

User avatar
TheMikado
I Live Here
Posts: 4866
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:28 pm

Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by TheMikado » Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:05 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
ricky84 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote: Of course, like anything in a story, Goku gets as far as he does because the story needs him to, like any story ever in the history of mankind and just like any other story, its the purpose of the storyteller to make you forget this and get invested in characters & plots. To make things feel like they come from a place that's natural for the character or decisions to make sense for who they're coming from. Which is why when you establish that Goku is a worthless nobody no one ever cared about, who was supposed to kill everyone who ends up being his friend and/or family into a special, unique love child of a special Saiyan bond to save his life, the illusion is broken and the reader is understandably annoyed by this.
You just undermined your entire complaint lmao.

Again, the reasons why Goku was sent to Earth in the first place have little to do with who he is as a character. Either way, Goku is still Goku personality wise.
No, I'm just pointing out how stupid it is to use a basic story fact as a defense or complaint. It's why "because plot" drives me up a well as a sort of critique because EVERYTHING in a story happens because of the plot, that's like saying the sky is blue! I also explained why its the job of a good storyteller to make you forget this, it's why everyone drivels on and on about "character-driven" stories which are just covering up plot necessary events through character actions well.

As I already explained, Goku's not directly affected by this stuff as a person but as a viewer, it absolutely does cast a light on what Goku is versus what he was supposed to be. Just because it exists more for the viewer to get invested in him over directly affecting Goku himself doesn't make it any less worthwhile of an aspect to his character.
I would say the difference is the old version of Superman where he is a coincidental hero, versus the "new" version of Superman where he suppose to lead the world and show them the error of their ways because they need his help. I didn't like minus and if this expands on it I'm not going to like it.

That being said if this is mediocre I'm going to watch it once. If it's trash, I'm going to theaters 3 times. The only way to save the franchise at this point is to totally crash it. I said this back in Super when they were teasing the Champa arc. All this is about money and fan service. It's why I said we would get both LSSJ and Broly canonized even way back then. Because modern DB has 1 goal. So in order to save it, I'm going to do my part to support the trash so that they continue to make worse and worse products until they are finally too bad to ignore by the base and the entire modern DB franchise abruptly crashes.

The way its going now continuing to support mediocrity will ensure they have more and more time to destroy the lore and integrity of the series.

precita
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5467
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:10 pm

Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by precita » Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:14 pm

So how are they going to retcon something in the manga? Of Freeza remembering Bardock, saying Goku looks like him, and remembering killing Bardock with his giant death ball?

THIS IS IN THE MANGA. It's not like something they can hand wave like anime filler or specials.

User avatar
Mister_Popo
Regular
Posts: 616
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:12 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by Mister_Popo » Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:17 pm

TheMikado wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
ricky84 wrote:
You just undermined your entire complaint lmao.

Again, the reasons why Goku was sent to Earth in the first place have little to do with who he is as a character. Either way, Goku is still Goku personality wise.
No, I'm just pointing out how stupid it is to use a basic story fact as a defense or complaint. It's why "because plot" drives me up a well as a sort of critique because EVERYTHING in a story happens because of the plot, that's like saying the sky is blue! I also explained why its the job of a good storyteller to make you forget this, it's why everyone drivels on and on about "character-driven" stories which are just covering up plot necessary events through character actions well.

As I already explained, Goku's not directly affected by this stuff as a person but as a viewer, it absolutely does cast a light on what Goku is versus what he was supposed to be. Just because it exists more for the viewer to get invested in him over directly affecting Goku himself doesn't make it any less worthwhile of an aspect to his character.
I would say the difference is the old version of Superman where he is a coincidental hero, versus the "new" version of Superman where he suppose to lead the world and show them the error of their ways because they need his help. I didn't like minus and if this expands on it I'm not going to like it.

That being said if this is mediocre I'm going to watch it once. If it's trash, I'm going to theaters 3 times. The only way to save the franchise at this point is to totally crash it. I said this back in Super when they were teasing the Champa arc. All this is about money and fan service. It's why I said we would get both LSSJ and Broly canonized even way back then. Because modern DB has 1 goal. So in order to save it, I'm going to do my part to support the trash so that they continue to make worse and worse products until they are finally too bad to ignore by the base and the entire modern DB franchise abruptly crashes.

The way its going now continuing to support mediocrity will ensure they have more and more time to destroy the lore and integrity of the series.

It's simple: if it sells, then it sells. TOEI isn't intrested if you trash it or not. They look at the numbers. People have to watch and sell the merchandise. Do you think if some guys are moaning on an internet board is a base of their concern? Then i'm afraid you are spending your time. Trashing has no use whatsoever.
The funny thing is: even the guys who are constantly saying it's no good, are watching it, constantly.

I know the current franchise, even more than the old, is aiming to sell, but that's the reason why we get more DB in first place. I try to see it in a constructive way and make the best of what we get, although i have my thoughts from time to time. I rather have a Zamasu-type-arc than Broly. But: i try to see it from a positive side. The first pieces from the movie and the story it represents look quite ok to be honest.

User avatar
ekrolo2
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7812
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:27 am
Location: Split, Croatia

Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:29 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:It's simple: if it sells, then it sells. TOEI isn't intrested if you trash it or not. They look at the numbers. People have to watch and sell the merchandise. Do you think if some guys are moaning on an internet board is a base of their concern? Then i'm afraid you are spending your time. Trashing has no use whatsoever.
The funny thing is: even the guys who are constantly saying it's no good, are watching it, constantly.

I know the current franchise, even more than the old, is aiming to sell, but that's the reason why we get more DB in first place. I try to see it in a constructive way and make the best of what we get, although i have my thoughts from time to time. I rather have a Zamasu-type-arc than Broly. But: i try to see it from a positive side. The first pieces from the movie and the story it represents look quite ok to be honest.
I'm always perplexed by comments like this pointing out the obvious, we know why franchises make more products, its obviously money just like any product ever. The thing is, just because you're out to make money doesn't excuse bad products or cases outside DB, bad business decisions that hurt consumers for extra profit. There's plenty of stuff that has made lots and lots of money and been good, I don't see what's unreasonable about wanting DB one such product. Particularly since Battle of Gods the movie proved you can tell a good story in the modern age.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):

User avatar
Mister_Popo
Regular
Posts: 616
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:12 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by Mister_Popo » Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:35 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
Mister_Popo wrote:It's simple: if it sells, then it sells. TOEI isn't intrested if you trash it or not. They look at the numbers. People have to watch and sell the merchandise. Do you think if some guys are moaning on an internet board is a base of their concern? Then i'm afraid you are spending your time. Trashing has no use whatsoever.
The funny thing is: even the guys who are constantly saying it's no good, are watching it, constantly.

I know the current franchise, even more than the old, is aiming to sell, but that's the reason why we get more DB in first place. I try to see it in a constructive way and make the best of what we get, although i have my thoughts from time to time. I rather have a Zamasu-type-arc than Broly. But: i try to see it from a positive side. The first pieces from the movie and the story it represents look quite ok to be honest.
I'm always perplexed by comments like this pointing out the obvious, we know why franchises make more products, its obviously money just like any product ever. The thing is, just because you're out to make money doesn't excuse bad products or cases outside DB, bad business decisions that hurt consumers for extra profit. There's plenty of stuff that has made lots and lots of money and been good, I don't see what's unreasonable about wanting DB one such product. Particularly since Battle of Gods the movie proved you can tell a good story in the modern age.

You didn't competely understood my point. I understand we can discuss. I understand we, as fans, can interact and change ideas. You don't have to like it for me and i am open to listen to your points why you don't like it. But we have to see this discussion seperately from a Holy Crusade against Modern DB. because that's not something that we are going to influence on a board. Definitely considering the fact even the people that hate it still watch it at the end. That doesn't make any sense.

User avatar
TheMikado
I Live Here
Posts: 4866
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:28 pm

Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by TheMikado » Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:53 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
Mister_Popo wrote:It's simple: if it sells, then it sells. TOEI isn't intrested if you trash it or not. They look at the numbers. People have to watch and sell the merchandise. Do you think if some guys are moaning on an internet board is a base of their concern? Then i'm afraid you are spending your time. Trashing has no use whatsoever.
The funny thing is: even the guys who are constantly saying it's no good, are watching it, constantly.

I know the current franchise, even more than the old, is aiming to sell, but that's the reason why we get more DB in first place. I try to see it in a constructive way and make the best of what we get, although i have my thoughts from time to time. I rather have a Zamasu-type-arc than Broly. But: i try to see it from a positive side. The first pieces from the movie and the story it represents look quite ok to be honest.
I'm always perplexed by comments like this pointing out the obvious, we know why franchises make more products, its obviously money just like any product ever. The thing is, just because you're out to make money doesn't excuse bad products or cases outside DB, bad business decisions that hurt consumers for extra profit. There's plenty of stuff that has made lots and lots of money and been good, I don't see what's unreasonable about wanting DB one such product. Particularly since Battle of Gods the movie proved you can tell a good story in the modern age.

You didn't competely understood my point. I understand we can discuss. I understand we, as fans, can interact and change ideas. You don't have to like it for me and i am open to listen to your points why you don't like it. But we have to see this discussion seperately from a Holy Crusade against Modern DB. because that's not something that we are going to influence on a board. Definitely considering the fact even the people that hate it still watch it at the end. That doesn't make any sense.
Except it is, these things dont happen in a vacuum. How did you even find the series in series in the first place? Imagine how you react if the reviews to DB franchise were primarily negative. Its unfortunate that individuals cannot see their role in the great effect of things. No one individual is going to single handedly change the tide but if enough fans demand better we may be able to get better from modern DB or at worse at least stop them from crapping on franchise for the sake of profit focused cashgrabs.

User avatar
Mister_Popo
Regular
Posts: 616
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:12 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by Mister_Popo » Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:07 pm

TheMikado wrote:
Mister_Popo wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote: I'm always perplexed by comments like this pointing out the obvious, we know why franchises make more products, its obviously money just like any product ever. The thing is, just because you're out to , i make money doesn't excuse bad products or cases outside DB, bad business decisions that hurt consumers for extra profit. There's plenty of stuff that has made lots and lots of money and been good, I don't see what's unreasonable about wanting DB one such product. Particularly since Battle of Gods the movie proved you can tell a good story in the modern age.

You didn't competely understood my point. I understand we can discuss. I understand we, as fans, can interact and change ideas. You don't have to like it for me and i am open to listen to your points why you don't like it. But we have to see this discussion seperately from a Holy Crusade against Modern DB. because that's not something that we are going to influence on a board. Definitely considering the fact even the people that hate it still watch it at the end. That doesn't make any sense.
Except it is, these things dont happen in a vacuum. How did you even find the series in series in the first place? Imagine how you react if the reviews to DB franchise were primarily negative. Its unfortunate that individuals cannot see their role in the great effect of things. No one individual is going to single handedly change the tide but if enough fans demand better we may be able to get better from modern DB or at worse at least stop them from crapping on franchise for the sake of profit focused cashgrabs.


I think they are aware there are different segments of fans. But they first look at things that are popular with larger segments.

You are free to comment the movie. Buti would recommend: first take a look at the final product before you judge it.
Do you somewhere understand my point as well? If i am going to watch this movie somewhere early 2019, i want to make the best of it.
I like the first two trailers and i don't have any reason to be negative at this point, so why would i?

I am not going to say i don't like it something because someone demands it from me.

What always does strike me with these hardcore 'Super-haters': they simply don't respect another opinion.
If you don't like it and you argument, i can not accept your arguments but i still respect your opinion.
What hardcore haters do is 'i don't like it, so even if you don't like it, you are saying crap, your opinion isn't valid because it's an objective fact it's bad'.
That's nonsense if you know how many people like the show. I don't believe all those folks that are watching it are plain idiots with bad taste that don't have the balls to stand out for their opinion.

Post Reply