Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

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Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by Bergamo » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:00 pm

supersaiyanZero wrote:
Bullza wrote:
SaiyanGod117 wrote:You’re joking right, because Minus whether by itself or conjoined with the manga is a generic subpar story.
No, that old Bardock movie was never that good. Minus was never that good. This expanded version they seem to be doing for the movie will likely be better though.
Lmao, the original bardock movie was one of the best lore building and stand alone movies the franchise has to offer. You're clearly trolling.
The movie gave Bardock random precognition powers and retroactively ruined Goku's story by making him the destined son of a Saiyan rebel rather than a man who overcame all challenges with hard work despite his status. That's pretty bad.
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Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:01 pm

coola wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
ricky84 wrote:
False Analogy. Lucas did plenty of bullshit with the prequel and sequel trilogies and still get bashed for it.
Lucas gets rightly deserved ire, but my point is, Toriyama has already pulled quite a few things that put him well into Lucas' camp if not his equal and nobody cares or just shruggs it off like damaging your series is totally fine. That's what I mean when DB gets no respect, its creator can bork it nine ways to sunday and the vast, vast, vast majority of people well just wave it off and say: "Oh that Toriyama!"
My only problem with George Lucas, was that he refused to re release Original Trilogy in unaltered version, instead he made it worse with every release.
I'm torn on an OG re-release, on one hand I want them to do it so people shut up about it already but on the other hand, I have such thorough disdain for Star Wars and its fandom nowadays, the asshole part of me wants it to never happen just to annoy that whole cabal.
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Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by Luso Saiyan » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:33 pm

TheMikado wrote:Toriyama is free to do as he likes, but the continued false equivalence of Dragonball then versus Dragonball now is the point.

The original Dragonball was made in a very different time in a very different way. Acting as if its the same creative process is self delusion.
What...?!
TheMikado wrote:Modern Dragonball is made with mutliple authors or are you claiming that everything Dragonball IS Toriyamas and thus should be treated equally in terms of its creative content and authority?
If I'm making a point that the original Bardock special not being a Toriyama story and that his story is bound to be (and is) different, how am I treating everything equally? There's Dragon Ball that comes from Toriyama, and there's Dragon Ball that doesn't come from Toriyama. That's been the case for decades. We are getting a story from Toriyama adapted in this movie, which was not the case with the Bardock special.
TheMikado wrote:You're trying to claim there is a level of involvment surrounding theae projects without specifying what that level is.
His level of involvement is splashed in every trailer that has been released.
TheMikado wrote:Toriyama has writing credits on everything from GT to the movies.
No, he hasn't. Only the latest movie have him with story/writing credits.
TheMikado wrote:Toriyama designed the previous Broly but suddenly its not his?
He merely designed, yes. And he designed the character taking into account a story and characterization that wasn't his, but Toei's. The complete opposite is happening here.
TheMikado wrote:It seems you want to give Toriyama full credit when its convenient and none where you dont want his name on a project.
How did you even jump to that baseless conclusion?

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Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by alakazam^ » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:54 pm

TheMikado wrote:The fact is in terms of production modern DB does not have the same creative process as the original manga. This is fact it shows in the artistic process and product.
Toriyama's manga had different creative processes during serialization by the mere fact he had different editors, so you need to stop this nonsense. You're so blind with bias that you don't even realize Dragon Ball only exists because Toriyama wanted money (and it was Torishima's suggestion, if I recall). Does it sound familiar?

Going by your logic, Dragon Ball isn't Toriyama's story either since it always had outside influences that "tainted" the creative process. Where's the Jouney to the West vibe Toriyama wanted? Nowhere to be seen. Tounaments? We only have them because the series wasn't very popular at the time. Piccolo Daimaou, Freeza and Boo? All inspired by Toriyama's editors. Goku losing tournaments? Well, just Toriyama going against what fans expected. The Burdock panels? Only exist because Toriyama liked the special well enough but otherwise would never exist because that's not a story he would ever tell. Travelling to the past to warn about dangerous robots? I don't know, it sounds like some other famous franchise. #17, #18 and Cell? I don't even have to talk about them. The Majin Boo arc? Toriyama's editor letting him do as he wanted. What about Fusion? Not Toriyama's idea. So, what does this tells us about the artistic process and product? I'm now interested in imagining "the story Toriyama wanted or would have told without outside influences focused on profits and money", because we never had that.

It's even more insulting that people try to manipulate others with these fragile strawmen ignoring all the interviews, tweets and public comments by people involved with the franchise saying they love Dragon Ball and were a fan ever since it was being published/airing on TV. Money isn't evil and no one works for free, nor should they. Dragon Ball started because of money and it brings lots of it and there's nothing wrong with it. We know enough of Toriyama's mindset to know he's no pushover and no "corporate sellout", he's humble enough to go along and accept suggestions and no one's forcing him to be a part of Super. He's here because he wants to and he's being payed for it just like he always was. You should also inform yourself before posting because the majority of the "new stuff" has hardly been marketed in the first place.

Lastly, If Toriyama's manga is his story, then so is Super's.

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Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by The Monkey King » Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:00 pm

Bergamo wrote:The movie gave Bardock random precognition powers
And the manga gave characters random mind reading/telepathic powers. What's the big deal?
and retroactively ruined Goku's story by making him the destined son of a Saiyan rebel rather than a man who overcame all challenges with hard work despite his status.
No it didn't change anything about Goku at all, the special went out of its way to show Goku was nothing special as a saiyan baby, he was born with a PL of 1. Bardock simply caught glimpses as to how all of Goku's training and hardwork would lead him to a battle against Freeza.
That's pretty bad.
Nope. The Bardock special is one of the greatest Dragon Ball stories ever made, it being 100% retconned by DB-, the worst story I've ever seen Toriyama tell for no real reason is a travesty.
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Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by Kaiza_Toshiyuki » Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:02 pm

People are making this a much bigger problem than it actually is. At least have the decency to wait for the movie to come out first to bash it. I personally don´t think its too big a deal. And even if I thought it was, if they pull this off it could be better. The scene in the manga could still happen. Thats all that matters.

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Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by sintzu » Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:21 pm

alakazam^ wrote:
TheMikado wrote:The fact is in terms of production modern DB does not have the same creative process as the original manga. This is fact it shows in the artistic process and product.
Toriyama's manga had different creative processes during serialization by the mere fact he had different editors, so you need to stop this nonsense. You're so blind with bias that you don't even realize Dragon Ball only exists because Toriyama wanted money (and it was Torishima's suggestion, if I recall). Does it sound familiar?
Everything in the entertainment industry exists for money but to say that there are no differences between modern and old DB is just pure denial. the biggest difference is that the original manga was a full story written and drawn by Toriyama while Super is bullet points that allows others to fill in the blanks. Another difference is the changes the anime industry has went through in the 20 year gap between old and modern DB as the styles of writing have greatly and clearly changed. Whether or not that's a good thing is entirely up to you but fact of the matter is, modern DB IS different from old DB.
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Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by TheMikado » Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:24 pm

Luso Saiyan wrote:
TheMikado wrote:Toriyama has writing credits on everything from GT to the movies.
No, he hasn't. Only the latest movie have him with story/writing credits.
No, that's a bold face lie which gets ignorantly regurgitated around the internet without people bothering to research a shred of information for themselves.
Toriyama has himself listed as the "Author" for almost every single movie and series.

GT:
Image

Bardock:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZCOhuDplI8

Broly:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEQpIBPFpKI

And before we even try that "It's the series author credits" There's a seperate credit for that:
Image

If Toriyama is allowing himself to be listed as the author how a the fans going to try to claim what is and isn't "his" story when it looks like he claims all of it.
Again what's the criteria?
alakazam^ wrote:
TheMikado wrote:The fact is in terms of production modern DB does not have the same creative process as the original manga. This is fact it shows in the artistic process and product.
Toriyama's manga had different creative processes during serialization by the mere fact he had different editors, so you need to stop this nonsense. You're so blind with bias that you don't even realize Dragon Ball only exists because Toriyama wanted money (and it was Torishima's suggestion, if I recall). Does it sound familiar?

Going by your logic, Dragon Ball isn't Toriyama's story either since it always had outside influences that "tainted" the creative process. Where's the Jouney to the West vibe Toriyama wanted? Nowhere to be seen. Tounaments? We only have them because the series wasn't very popular at the time. Piccolo Daimaou, Freeza and Boo? All inspired by Toriyama's editors. Goku losing tournaments? Well, just Toriyama going against what fans expected. The Burdock panels? Only exist because Toriyama liked the special well enough but otherwise would never exist because that's not a story he would ever tell. Travelling to the past to warn about dangerous robots? I don't know, it sounds like some other famous franchise. #17, #18 and Cell? I don't even have to talk about them. The Majin Boo arc? Toriyama's editor letting him do as he wanted. What about Fusion? Not Toriyama's idea. So, what does this tells us about the artistic process and product? I'm now interested in imagining "the story Toriyama wanted or would have told without outside influences focused on profits and money", because we never had that.

It's even more insulting that people try to manipulate others with these fragile strawmen ignoring all the interviews, tweets and public comments by people involved with the franchise saying they love Dragon Ball and were a fan ever since it was being published/airing on TV. Money isn't evil and no one works for free, nor should they. Dragon Ball started because of money and it brings lots of it and there's nothing wrong with it. We know enough of Toriyama's mindset to know he's no pushover and no "corporate sellout", he's humble enough to go along and accept suggestions and no one's forcing him to be a part of Super. He's here because he wants to and he's being payed for it just like he always was. You should also inform yourself before posting because the majority of the "new stuff" has hardly been marketed in the first place.

Lastly, If Toriyama's manga is his story, then so is Super's.
I'd actually recommend you inform yourself first. Toriyama was given a choice between continuing on Dr. Slump and making a new manga, your creating a made-up excuse of Toriyama "wanting money" being the reason for its creation just to prove a point which is actually far far more insulting. No one is saying money is evil either, but Toriyama has had his name plastered on all Dragonball material for decades and never ever stating something along the lines of an official canon. Yet we have people trying to claim this is his story and that's not. When Toriyama himself never made the distinction. If anything he has been very consistent with his credit history.

Its when we get to the fandom that we begin the process of gatekeeping on what's "Toriyama's" story and what isn't when he's made it abundantly clear its ALL part of his story. If he didn't want it to be he wouldn't put his name on it. No one's forcing him to do so. So by your logic, if the manga is Toriyama's story, then Super is, then GT is, then the movies are. He didn't have to be involved with any of those projects yet he choose to be and got paid for it and lists himself as the "author" not just "based on" credits on all his work.

So again, this is about fandom gatekeeping and purity tests, however the tests begin to fail as you try to separate out these projects with ambiguous criteria. Either EVERYTHING with Toriyama's name on it that he claims to be the author is his or its not. The fandom purity tests are absurd. If what constitutes his work is based on the creative process and influence than the manga is the "purest" form. You can't have it both ways.

And let me just state it doesn't matter to me one way or the other, but trying to act as if Super and Modern DB follows a similar creative process and thus equivalently "Toriyama's story" where GT and the movies aren't is what is absurd. Again what's the criteria for determining if it is or isn't Toriyama's story if Toriyama himself doesn't say so? That's pretty insulting of the fandom don't you think?

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Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by alakazam^ » Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:45 pm

sintzu wrote:Everything in the entertainment industry exists for money but to say that there are no differences between modern and old DB is just pure denial. the biggest difference is that the original manga was a full story written and drawn by Toriyama while Super is bullet points that allows others to fill in the blanks. Another difference is the changes the anime industry has went through in the 20 year gap between old and modern DB as the styles of writing have greatly and clearly changed. Whether or not that's a good thing is entirely up to you but fact of the matter is, modern DB IS different from old DB.
I never said it wasn't, what I pointed out was that "Old Dragon Ball" had differences within itself as well.
TheMikado wrote:I'd actually recommend you inform yourself first. Toriyama was given a choice between continuing on Dr. Slump and making a new manga, your creating a made-up excuse of Toriyama "wanting money" being the reason for its creation just to prove a point which is actually far far more insulting. No one is saying money is evil either, but Toriyama has had his name plastered on all Dragonball material for decades and never ever stating something along the lines of an official canon. Yet we have people trying to claim this is his story and that's not. When Toriyama himself never made the distinction. If anything he has been very consistent with his credit history.

Its when we get to the fandom that we begin the process of gatekeeping on what's "Toriyama's" story and what isn't when he's made it abundantly clear its ALL part of his story. If he didn't want it to be he wouldn't put his name on it. No one's forcing him to do so. So by your logic, if the manga is Toriyama's story, then Super is, then GT is, then the movies are. He didn't have to be involved with any of those projects yet he choose to be and got paid for it and lists himself as the "author" not just "based on" credits on all his work.

So again, this is about fandom gatekeeping and purity tests, however the tests begin to fail as you try to separate out these projects with ambiguous criteria. Either EVERYTHING with Toriyama's name on it that he claims to be the author is his or its not. The fandom purity tests are absurd. If what constitutes his work is based on the creative process and influence than the manga is the "purest" form. You can't have it both ways.

And let me just state it doesn't matter to me one way or the other, but trying to act as if Super and Modern DB follows a similar creative process and thus equivalently "Toriyama's story" where GT and the movies aren't is what is absurd. Again what's the criteria for determining if it is or isn't Toriyama's story if Toriyama himself doesn't say so? That's pretty insulting of the fandom don't you think?
Toriyama started drawing manga for money, where's the made-up excuse? Do you actually think he'd draw Dragon Ball if he wasn't being payed? Given that he was sick of the series (and the schedule) by the time he ended, the answer is obvious. And yes, people are demonizing money every time they mention the greedy, evil companies and the "cashgrabs", like you did.

No idea why you mentioned "canon" but it's pretty simple to understand Toriyama uses what he writes, which doesn't include GT or the fillers. Which is also the reason the nobody-Burdock remains a nobody in the manga. In fact, he's such a nobody that Freeza even misremembered when he last saw him, because it sure as hell wasn't before exploding Vegeeta, as the trailer proves us ( :P ).

Toriyama isn't the one writing the credits and all of that has to do with laws, so no, GT and the movies have no bearing in the story he's telling. If they ever sell Dragon Ball sex toys, you can be sure they'll all have the proper credits on the package.

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Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by zDBZ » Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:45 pm

Bergamo wrote:
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Bullza wrote:
No, that old Bardock movie was never that good. Minus was never that good. This expanded version they seem to be doing for the movie will likely be better though.
Lmao, the original bardock movie was one of the best lore building and stand alone movies the franchise has to offer. You're clearly trolling.
The movie gave Bardock random precognition powers and retroactively ruined Goku's story by making him the destined son of a Saiyan rebel rather than a man who overcame all challenges with hard work despite his status. That's pretty bad.
On top of everything The Monkey King already said, Bardock's powers and actions have absolutely no bearing on Goku's life and development. His precognition doesn't destine Goku to defeat Freeza or generate a prophecy passed around to frame that battle as anything divine or ordained; it just gives Bardock a glimpse of something to smile about as he disintegrates. Goku's still someone who came from nothing and worked hard to obtain his skills and power. And, to be fair to Minus, that story doesn't take that away from Goku either, for all the other changes it makes to the thematic ideas surrounding him.

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Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by LettuceJUMP » Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:47 pm

More dragon ball is a good thing.

Think of it as alternate timeline if it helps you sleep at night. DC and Marvel retell stories decades later. What is or isn’t canon can be up to you. Enjoy it as new content and believe what you want. A reimaging can be fun if it is more fleshed out. I’m just happy to be living in a time where we are getting more content of my favorite anime.

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Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by Bullza » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:54 pm

supersaiyanZero wrote:Lmao, the original bardock movie was one of the best lore building and stand alone movies the franchise has to offer. You're clearly trolling.
Being one of the best movies isn't saying much because most of the original 13 movies weren't very good either. It was a mediocre movie with only the last few minutes being any good.

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Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by precita » Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:50 pm

The Bardock special is better than anything Super put forth.

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Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by supersaiyanZero » Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:03 am

precita wrote:The Bardock special is better than anything Super put forth.
Truer words have never been spoken.

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Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by Shaddy » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:03 am

Literally every word I've heard in my life is truer than those ones.
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Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:54 am

Bullza wrote:
supersaiyanZero wrote:Lmao, the original bardock movie was one of the best lore building and stand alone movies the franchise has to offer. You're clearly trolling.
Being one of the best movies isn't saying much because most of the original 13 movies weren't very good either. It was a mediocre movie with only the last few minutes being any good.
It also didn't build any lore. We barely saw any of Planet Vegeta or the rest of the Saiyans instead followed this Bardock guy who got stupid psychic powers and Freeza blew up the planet... Which we already knew. It literally didn't lore build anything.

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Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by superfan2024 » Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:39 am

The Bardock special was never fully canon, or at least was never Toriyama's story to begin with. It was just Toei's interpretation of Bardock's story based upon Raditz saying that Goku looked just like his father, Dodoria telling Vegeta that Freeza destroyed the planet, and Toriyama's final design after correcting Nakatsuru's initial designs for Bardock and his teammates.

Just read this and you'll understand:

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/tidbits/the-h ... f-bardock/

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Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by Saturnine » Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:53 am

Yeah, I really don't understand why it's so difficult to tell apart Toriyama personally writing a story and jus sticking his name on it as the "original author". It's obvious that his personal involvement in different Dragon Ball media varies. If Broly and the Bardock special were legit and his own stories, he wouldn't be writing a different one now that directly borrows elements from them. There is a main continuity and there are alternate reality side stories and there is no denying it or arguing against it.

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Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by 1345521 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:31 am

I notice there are the type of people who say they are dragon ball fans, BUT who literally slam, slander, undermine, disregard and plainly disrespect everything about dragon ball that's not penned by toriyama. My question is why do these people, if you exist, basically really dislike everything that isn't toriyama (All the movies of Z, GT and super manga) but yet have a soft spot for dragon ball super the anime? And these people who have bias for anything toriyama are the same people who'll say DBZ was overrated and the only good arcs were Freeza arc and sayain arc. I don't get it. And they will just ADORE the orginal orginal dragon ball continuity. Is this like built-up frusteriation over the years of how you see your favorite product, dragon ball, be disregarded and ignored by the famdon so much that now anything that gives you a semblace of that nostalgic dragon ball feel, you quickly defend it over the more Z-like versions of dragon ball?

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Re: Why are they retconning the original Bardock special? Now it's no longer canon?

Post by Saturnine » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:46 am

1345521 wrote:I notice there are the type of people who say they are dragon ball fans, BUT who literally slam, slander, undermine, disregard and plainly disrespect everything about dragon ball that's not penned by toriyama. My question is why do these people, if you exist, basically really dislike everything that isn't toriyama (All the movies of Z, GT and super manga) but yet have a soft spot for dragon ball super the anime? And these people who have bias for anything toriyama are the same people who'll say DBZ was overrated and the only good arcs were Freeza arc and sayain arc. I don't get it. And they will just ADORE the orginal orginal dragon ball continuity. Is this like built-up frusteriation over the years of how you see your favorite product, dragon ball, be disregarded and ignored by the famdon so much that now anything that gives you a semblace of that nostalgic dragon ball feel, you quickly defend it over the more Z-like versions of dragon ball?
I think it's because whenever Toei gets free rein, the finer and subtler elements of Dragon Ball become lost, and all we get are mindless fights and gratuitous badassery, as epitomized by SDBH. Unlike GT, Super doesn't circle jerk Toei's own material, whcih more often than not was completely different in tone from stuff written by Toriyama. That gives it a quaint, nostalgic feel and at least some authenticity.

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