Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Nokra
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 224
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:39 pm
Location: Transcendent Realm

Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

Post by Nokra » Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:52 pm

I'm going to go with Gohan. The Ultimate form was a giant asspull just to make him power relevant again (and also makes no sense considering Guru already brought out his potential on Namek). And SS2, while it was an epic transformation, the way he obtained it makes little sense. Gohan barely even knew Android 16 yet it was his death which somehow triggered Gohan to ascend to SS2 and not his friends being beat up by the Cell Jrs?! Also, the amount of rage boosts he got on namek became progressively more ridiculous to the point where he was able to land hits that visibly had an affect on Final Form Freeza!
P.s. Don't come at me with the "HiZ PoTeNtiaLz tHo!!" excuse. Its still bs and if the potential excuse can't be used for characters like Trunks or Caulifla why can it then be used for Gohan? Oh right! Because double standards :lolno:

User avatar
Doctor.
Banned
Posts: 10529
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

Post by Doctor. » Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:59 pm

Getting undeserved power-ups is Gohan's entire character.

User avatar
Nokra
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 224
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:39 pm
Location: Transcendent Realm

Re: Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

Post by Nokra » Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:03 pm

Doctor. wrote:Getting undeserved power-ups is Gohan's entire character.
You're not wrong :lol:

RecolorSaiyan
Regular
Posts: 563
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:40 pm

Re: Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:05 pm

To answer your question Gohan has gotten the most "underserved" powerups followed by Goku and Vegeta not even close to those two.

However I will address some of your points.

Guru didn't bring out all of gohans potential unless you think he taps out at below 1st form freeza level which not even lesser specimens like Goku do.

GOhan vs Final Form Freeza was filler

A16 was the straw that broke the camels back, how is it that people still don't get this? He gave him the whole speech about fighting to protect, he got through to gohan, his head gets crushed and gohan loses it. Somehow this is "hurr durr gohan cares more about 16 than his own family and friends"

However the ssg ritual gave goku a way bigger power boost than both of gohans unlocks by far.

Vegeta shouldn't even be questioned. The babidi boost probably buffed him 10-20% at most and closed the gap between him and goku in ssj2. Every other form he has busted his ass training for, no potential unlocks, no holding hands with 5 other people, etc

zarmack
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 852
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:22 am

Re: Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

Post by zarmack » Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:09 pm

Gohan easily. How is this even a debate lmao?

User avatar
Lord Beerus
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20409
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:20 pm
Location: A temple on a giant tree
Contact:

Re: Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:39 pm

Ultimate Gohan was always remain for me a point where Dragon Ball crossed a line that it shouldn't have ever crossed. In a story where characters are literally killing themselves to becoming stronger -- and still failing in those scenario might I add -- it's just so antithetical to Dragon Ball's core to have a character do nothing and become the strongest fighter in the universe. There's no journey for the character. No lessons to be gained. It's just a unearned monster power-up which emphasises the negative storytelling connotations for a character being born from the right blood and having a genetic advantage over everyone else.

Fuck Ultimate/Mystic/Super Gohan and everything it represents.

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2010
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:47 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Ultimate Gohan was always remain for me a point where Dragon Ball crossed a line that it shouldn't have ever crossed. In a story where characters are literally killing themselves to becoming stronger -- and still failing in those scenario might I add -- it's just so antithetical to Dragon Ball's core to have a character do nothing and become the strongest fighter in the universe. There's no journey for the character. No lessons to be gained. It's just a unearned monster power-up which emphasises the negative storytelling connotations for a character being born from the right blood and having a genetic advantage over everyone else.

Fuck Ultimate/Mystic/Super Gohan and everything it represents.
That's why I liked Gohan losing and eventually regaining the power.

It was a proper journey, one that Gohan underwent thanks to his newfound experiences after the awakening of Beerus; it may not have been a perfect buildup, but it WAS built up, at least.

User avatar
Lord Beerus
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20409
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:20 pm
Location: A temple on a giant tree
Contact:

Re: Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:58 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Ultimate Gohan was always remain for me a point where Dragon Ball crossed a line that it shouldn't have ever crossed. In a story where characters are literally killing themselves to becoming stronger -- and still failing in those scenario might I add -- it's just so antithetical to Dragon Ball's core to have a character do nothing and become the strongest fighter in the universe. There's no journey for the character. No lessons to be gained. It's just a unearned monster power-up which emphasises the negative storytelling connotations for a character being born from the right blood and having a genetic advantage over everyone else.

Fuck Ultimate/Mystic/Super Gohan and everything it represents.
That's why I liked Gohan losing and eventually regaining the power.

It was a proper journey, one that Gohan underwent thanks to his newfound experiences after the awakening of Beerus; it may not have been a perfect buildup, but it WAS built up, at least.
Although I'm not in line with Gohan becoming a strong as he did leading up to the Tournament of Power, I really appreciate that anime went out of its way to address the flaws in Gohan's character and have him learn from them and not horrendously backpedal like he has in the past. This is one of the occasions I can forgive the power scaling shenanigans because the character writing was so damn good.

User avatar
Lionel
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1562
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:54 am

Re: Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

Post by Lionel » Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:03 pm

I don't know. The potential unlock ritual wasn't traditionally rigorous as training would be but having to stand in one place for hours on end followed by almost a day's worth of sitting in the exact same spot with nothing to do can be maddening. I would argue that the trials were geared more towards being mentally hardwearing than just working out long enough in a gravity chamber to bulk yourself up. The premise of Goku's power acquisition by drinking the Chonshisui was sort of similar albeit he was having to writhe on the ground in agony for a night instead of just meditate or whatever for an entire day.

Besides that, I think the zenkai power up comparison is more debatable. Gohan never intentionally tried to farm zenkais like Vegeta did during the climax of the Freeza arc. To my knowledge, he only ever received two -- one from having his neck gruesomely broken and the other from having his skull almost crushed in. I think Vegeta has had four that we're aware of and most came from him ending up beaten and exhausted. Goku? It's not confirmed but the narration during his time spent training on his way to Namek implies that may have been farming zenkais (again it's not confirmed). Most of his power is earned, though.

In general Gohan definitely has more advantages than the other two. To me, his journey has always been more about personality and building your internal strength up than physically driving yourself to become the strongest.

User avatar
Nokra
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 224
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:39 pm
Location: Transcendent Realm

Re: Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

Post by Nokra » Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:30 pm

RecolorSaiyan wrote:To answer your question Gohan has gotten the most "underserved" powerups followed by Goku and Vegeta not even close to those two.

However I will address some of your points.

Guru didn't bring out all of gohans potential unless you think he taps out at below 1st form freeza level which not even lesser specimens like Goku do.

GOhan vs Final Form Freeza was filler

A16 was the straw that broke the camels back, how is it that people still don't get this? He gave him the whole speech about fighting to protect, he got through to gohan, his head gets crushed and gohan loses it. Somehow this is "hurr durr gohan cares more about 16 than his own family and friends"

However the ssg ritual gave goku a way bigger power boost than both of gohans unlocks by far.

Vegeta shouldn't even be questioned. The babidi boost probably buffed him 10-20% at most and closed the gap between him and goku in ssj2. Every other form he has busted his ass training for, no potential unlocks, no holding hands with 5 other people, etc
Yeah, I still don't agree with this because Gohan never went back to namek to do it again with the new elder (unless it was an ability only unique to Guru?) and he kept getting stronger even after namek. His strength kept growing through training and went far beyond any form of Freeza by the Cell Games. So Gohan having it somehow "brought out" or "unlocked" again by elder kai during the Buu arc, giving him power that eclipsed both SS3 Gotenks and Goku just by watching an old guy dance still feels entirely plot based and underserved.

Fair enough. Toei being toei I guess...

Never said Gohan cares more about Android 16 then his friends or family. But it's not like the show does a good job of making it not seem that way when Gohan is literally watching everyone being manhandled by the Cell Jrs for so long and it's not triggering his transformation yet 16, someone he barely if ever exchanged dialogue with does? Idk, it just feels weird to ne that Toriyama wrote it that way then again, Gohan was written really strangely (even badly) during that arc. Especially the whole "I'm a pacifist now. Let's not fight Cell" even though the whole planet was at stake. Yeah, I don't like cell arc Gohan that much in general tbh... Don't murder me now please :o

And that's why Goku is second in underserved power ups/transformations to me 8)

I wouldn't exactly say he bust his ass for SSJ since he essentially didn't care anymore, yelled a little and VIOLA! Super Saiyan. Also, didn't he just show up to fight Android 19 as a Super Saiyan in the manga which means he just got it off panel somehow? :roll: SS4 as well since he cut corners BIG TIME to achieve it compared to Goku.
Last edited by Nokra on Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:43 pm, edited 4 times in total.

RecolorSaiyan
Regular
Posts: 563
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:40 pm

Re: Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:35 pm

Nokra wrote:
RecolorSaiyan wrote:To answer your question Gohan has gotten the most "underserved" powerups followed by Goku and Vegeta not even close to those two.

However I will address some of your points.

Guru didn't bring out all of gohans potential unless you think he taps out at below 1st form freeza level which not even lesser specimens like Goku do.
Yeah, I still don't agree with this because Gohan never went back to namek to do it again with the new elder (unless it was an ability only unique to Guru?) and he kept getting stronger even after namek. His strength kept growing through training and went far beyond any form of Freeza by the Cell Games. So Gohan having it somehow "brought out" or "unlocked" again by elder kai during the Buu arc, giving him power that eclipsed both SS3 Gotenks and Goku just by watching an old guy dance still feels entirely plot based and underserved.
GOhan vs Final Form Freeza was filler
Fair enough. Toei being toei I guess...
A16 was the straw that broke the camels back, how is it that people still don't get this? He gave him the whole speech about fighting to protect, he got through to gohan, his head gets crushed and gohan loses it. Somehow this is "hurr durr gohan cares more about 16 than his own family and friends"
I never said Gohan cares more about Android 16 then his friends or family. But it's not like the show does a good job of making it not seem that way when Gohan is literally watching everyone being manhandled by the Cell Jrs for so long and it's not triggering his transformation yet 16, someone he barely if ever exchanged dialogue with does? Idk, it just feels weird to ne that Toriyama wrote it that way then again, Gohan was written really strangely (even badly) during that arc. Especially the whole "I'm a pacifist now. Let's not fight Cell" even though the whole planet was at stake. Yeah, I don't like cell arc Gohan that much in general tbh... Don't murder me now please :o
However the ssg ritual gave goku a way bigger power boost than both of gohans unlocks by far.
And that's why Goku is second in underserved power ups/transformations to me
Vegeta shouldn't even be questioned. The babidi boost probably buffed him 10-20% at most and closed the gap between him and goku in ssj2. Every other form he has busted his ass training for, no potential unlocks, no holding hands with 5 other people, etc
I wouldn't exactly say he bust his ass for SSJ since he essentially didn't care anymore, yell a little and VIOLA! Super Saiyan. Also, didn't use just show up to fight Android 19 as a Super Saiyan in the manga which means he just got it off panel somehow? :roll: SS4 as well since he cut corners BIG TIME to achieve it compared to Goku.

Well ssj4 isn't canon so i'm not bringing that up and he had years of training behind ssj and it took intense emotions back then to trigger it, goku got it cause his friend died, he didn't "deserve" it by that logic.

By undeserved i mean characters who get stronger without training behind them or free handouts of power they can't achieve on their own. With vegeta, dude always trains his ass off so his new forms are "deserving" atleast imo

reecehoward
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 182
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:52 am

Re: Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

Post by reecehoward » Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:10 pm

Gohan, without question.lol I think Goku and Vegeta put in more than enough work to earn whatever forms they have aside from UI for Goku and Majin Power up/Ssj2(?). I'm not counting the power ups Goku got in Dragonball because most of them were largely insignificant increases in comparison to his Z ones AND he still had to work for them as well.

Lukmendes
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 242
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:11 pm

Re: Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

Post by Lukmendes » Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:46 pm

To be fair, it can be difficult to say who should be number 1, all 3 of them got undeserved power ups, but Goku and Gohan in particular, since Gohan got the Ultimate form by just sitting still and doing old Kai's dumbass ritual, and Goku got SSG by doing that other dumbass ritual.

Vegeta also got those via zenkais, four of those in Namek saga, 2 were unintentional though, one was kinda intentional (The Zarbon one, since he didn't plan to get beaten but he decided to be fully healed to get one), and the last one being completely intentional with a "guarantee" heal since he noticed Dende's healing powers. I say Vegeta is a bit lower than Goku and Gohan on this since at least he's getting beaten up to get them, the ritual ones are just stay still and get free gains, Goku's zenkai in Namek should count as the same category.

Just realized, when the characters got those undeserved power ups, they couldn't beat the main villain, since Vegeta couldn't beat Freeza, Gohan failed to beat Super Boo, and Goku couldn't to beat Beerus.
Nokra wrote:I wouldn't exactly say he bust his ass for SSJ since he essentially didn't care anymore, yelled a little and VIOLA! Super Saiyan. Also, didn't he just show up to fight Android 19 as a Super Saiyan in the manga which means he just got it off panel somehow? :roll: SS4 as well since he cut corners BIG TIME to achieve it compared to Goku.
While Vegeta did cut corners to get SS4, it wasn't anything tremendous, since all Goku did to get SS4 was have someone pull his tail with that plier and Earth conveniently work like a moon, both of them had to control the Oozaru form and Vegeta was just better at it, and hell, Vegeta cutting corners backfired on him anyways since he couldn't go SS4 afterwards.
reecehoward wrote:Gohan, without question.lol I think Goku and Vegeta put in more than enough work to earn whatever forms they have aside from UI for Goku and Majin Power up/Ssj2(?). I'm not counting the power ups Goku got in Dragonball because most of them were largely insignificant increases in comparison to his Z ones AND he still had to work for them as well.
Well, there's the one he got by drinking that forbidden water arguably, and it wasn't insignificant at all since he went from being crushed by old King Piccolo to being stronger than young King Piccolo, he risked his life for it, but it's on the same category of "undeserving" as a zenkai.

User avatar
PFM18
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 3701
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

Post by PFM18 » Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:07 pm

Well considering that Goku and Vegeta have each received 0 undeserved power-ups Gohan wins by default

Lukmendes
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 242
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:11 pm

Re: Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

Post by Lukmendes » Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:11 pm

PFM18 wrote:Well considering that Goku and Vegeta have each received 0 undeserved power-ups Gohan wins by default
Super Saiyan God ritual is pretty undeserving.

BWri
Regular
Posts: 732
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 1:56 pm
Contact:

Re: Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

Post by BWri » Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:32 am

RecolorSaiyan wrote:Vegeta shouldn't even be questioned. The babidi boost probably buffed him 10-20% at most and closed the gap between him and goku in ssj2. Every other form he has busted his ass training for, no potential unlocks, no holding hands with 5 other people, etc
Eh, Namek era zenkais and Saiyan physiology says hello. Saiyan hacks are honestly making the show no fun for many of us who tend to like all the characters in DB, not just one broken race. I think Saiyan powerups have very gotten out of hand and this new Zenkai in the middle of battle with no healing thing that nearly every plot relevant Saiyan does in Super is really annoying.

All that said, of the three Gohan is undoubtedly the worst though Goku is actually even worse than Vegeta, believe it or not. A lot of people, myself included, give Vegeta a lot of flak for his Namek zenkais, but the one Goku got that took him from just above Ginyu to Final Form Frieza tier was just egregious. What really irks me about the Goku and Vegeta dynamic is how with only one trip in the RoSaT compared to Vegetas two, Goku was still that much stronger than him. They should have been a lot closer in power since Vegeta had twice the length of time to get stronger. That completely undersells Vegeta. We all know Goku is a fighting and training genius but that's just plot based B.S. So yeah, those two instances sell me on the idea that Goku gets more BS boosts than even Vegeta. Gohan's boost is definitely the worst in the series along with Frieza, Tagoma, and Android 17 IMO.

I think all the boosts that Piccolo (my favorite character) received are also just as unwarranted and should be up there with those three Saiyans. If all Namekian fusion multiplies power like Nail x Piccolo then it really needs to be nerfed. And many people like to think that he became stronger than Nail in the short time it took them all to get to Namek. Then there's the fact that he magically got to Super Saiyan levels with 3 years of training in base despite the base Saiyans having far outstripped him on Namek. Some of my examples wouldn't be so bad if we got a decent explanation for my these sorts of boosts happened or he was consistently that strong, but once he wasn't plot relevant he lost all that crazy potential.

I really dislike transformations so I'll spare you all my opinions on those since they are basically a non-ironic parody nowadays.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-

BWri
Regular
Posts: 732
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 1:56 pm
Contact:

Re: Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

Post by BWri » Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:34 am

PFM18 wrote:Well considering that Goku and Vegeta have each received 0 undeserved power-ups Gohan wins by default
Zenkais
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-

User avatar
Baggie_Saiyan
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10186
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:22 pm
Location: Atlantis.

Re: Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:58 am

Lukmendes wrote:
PFM18 wrote:Well considering that Goku and Vegeta have each received 0 undeserved power-ups Gohan wins by default
Super Saiyan God ritual is pretty undeserving.
SSG ritual was only supposed to be a temporary boost in power, yet Goku absorbed the power and made it his own, and Vegeta attained it without needing the ritual. I'd say that is pretty deserving.

Dbzfan94
I Live Here
Posts: 4754
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:16 pm
Location: Mt. Paozu

Re: Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

Post by Dbzfan94 » Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:41 am

Agree with the God ritual. They held hands and Goku got a massive power boost that made him stronger than everyone else in base form.

Lame.

zarmack
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 852
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:22 am

Re: Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

Post by zarmack » Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:54 am

Piccolo's 2 major power-ups in the series were arguably worse than any of the Saiyans. Neither involved any talent or hard work, just puts his hands on another Namekian and that's it lol.

Out of the all Saiyans, Gohan's are easily the most undeserved (Elder Kai boost, becoming SSB level in 1 day (anime), matching SSJ Kefla in base (manga)).

Followed by Goten/Present Trunks/Gotenks (turning SSJ1 into a joke, Gotenks unlocking SSJ3 just be thinking about it even though neither of his halves went bast SSJ1 lol).

Then its Cauilfla & Kefla (tingly-back nonsense, turning SSJ2 with no effort, Kefla somehow surpassing the first 2 UI Omens lol.)

After that its Goku (getting an over 33x zenkai boost to match Freeza on Namek, the God-Ritual which even he thought was lame, getting a zenkai boost to match Vegeta's 6 months on training in the ROSAT, getting a 10x zenkai boost to surpass Syn Shenron and arguably, UI in general (as cool as it was))

Next its Future Trunks (Spirit Sword asspull). However, SSJ Rage is actually kindly justifiable to me since the way he got isn't all that different from how Goku & Vegeta unlocked SSJ1 for the first time.

With the exceptions of taking the Majin boost (Z) and cheating his way into SSJ4 (GT), all of Vegeta's power-ups in the franchise are actually justified.

I'd also say Kale & Broly's power-ups were all justified considering the lore surrounding their powers and the fact that they were triggered by intense rage.

I guess this makes Cabba the least asspull-ish Saiyan in the cast lmao.
Last edited by zarmack on Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Post Reply