Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

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Re: Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

Post by majinwarman » Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:46 am

Lord Beerus wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Ultimate Gohan was always remain for me a point where Dragon Ball crossed a line that it shouldn't have ever crossed. In a story where characters are literally killing themselves to becoming stronger -- and still failing in those scenario might I add -- it's just so antithetical to Dragon Ball's core to have a character do nothing and become the strongest fighter in the universe. There's no journey for the character. No lessons to be gained. It's just a unearned monster power-up which emphasises the negative storytelling connotations for a character being born from the right blood and having a genetic advantage over everyone else.

Fuck Ultimate/Mystic/Super Gohan and everything it represents.
That's why I liked Gohan losing and eventually regaining the power.

It was a proper journey, one that Gohan underwent thanks to his newfound experiences after the awakening of Beerus; it may not have been a perfect buildup, but it WAS built up, at least.
Although I'm not in line with Gohan becoming a strong as he did leading up to the Tournament of Power, I really appreciate that anime went out of its way to address the flaws in Gohan's character and have him learn from them and not horrendously backpedal like he has in the past. This is one of the occasions I can forgive the power scaling shenanigans because the character writing was so damn good.
I agree. As much as the fans hate Gohan lose his power, Gohan needed to earn his power and not given to him with any struggle.
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Re: Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

Post by Lukmendes » Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:18 pm

BWri wrote:
RecolorSaiyan wrote:All that said, of the three Gohan is undoubtedly the worst though Goku is actually even worse than Vegeta, believe it or not. A lot of people, myself included, give Vegeta a lot of flak for his Namek zenkais, but the one Goku got that took him from just above Ginyu to Final Form Frieza tier was just egregious. What really irks me about the Goku and Vegeta dynamic is how with only one trip in the RoSaT compared to Vegetas two, Goku was still that much stronger than him. They should have been a lot closer in power since Vegeta had twice the length of time to get stronger. That completely undersells Vegeta. We all know Goku is a fighting and training genius but that's just plot based B.S. So yeah, those two instances sell me on the idea that Goku gets more BS boosts than even Vegeta. Gohan's boost is definitely the worst in the series along with Frieza, Tagoma, and Android 17 IMO.
To be fair, it's usualy occasionaly pointed out that Goku trains better than Vegeta, so Vegeta spending all of that time training wouldn't mean much if Goku is just better at it than him.
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Lukmendes wrote:
Super Saiyan God ritual is pretty undeserving.
SSG ritual was only supposed to be a temporary boost in power, yet Goku absorbed the power and made it his own, and Vegeta attained it without needing the ritual. I'd say that is pretty deserving.
The ritual being used at all is an undeserving power up, keeping it while not even knowing how the fuck he did that just makes it worse. And Vegeta getting it while training with Whis is fine.

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Re: Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

Post by Nokra » Sat Oct 27, 2018 6:44 am

zarmack wrote:Piccolo's 2 major power-ups in the series were arguably worse than any of the Saiyans. Neither involved any talent or hard work, just puts his hands on another Namekian and that's it lol.

Out of the all Saiyans, Gohan's are easily the most undeserved (Elder Kai boost, becoming SSB level in 1 day (anime), matching SSJ Kefla in base (manga)).

Followed by Goten/Present Trunks/Gotenks (turning SSJ1 into a joke, Gotenks unlocking SSJ3 just be thinking about it even though neither of his halves went bast SSJ1 lol).

Then its Cauilfla & Kefla (tingly-back nonsense, turning SSJ2 with no effort, Kefla somehow surpassing the first 2 UI Omens lol.)

After that its Goku (getting an over 33x zenkai boost to match Freeza on Namek, the God-Ritual which even he thought was lame, getting a zenkai boost to match Vegeta's 6 months on training in the ROSAT, getting a 10x zenkai boost to surpass Syn Shenron and arguably, UI in general (as cool as it was))

Next its Future Trunks (Spirit Sword asspull). However, SSJ Rage is actually kindly justifiable to me since the way he got isn't all that different from how Goku & Vegeta unlocked SSJ1 for the first time.

With the exceptions of taking the Majin boost (Z) and cheating his way into SSJ4 (GT), all of Vegeta's power-ups in the franchise are actually justified.

I'd also say Kale & Broly's power-ups were all justified considering the lore surrounding their powers and the fact that they were triggered by intense rage.

I guess this makes Cabba the least asspull-ish Saiyan in the cast lmao.
Good to know I'm not the only person who believes Trunks actually deserved SSJR :thumbup:

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Re: Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

Post by BWri » Sat Oct 27, 2018 4:49 pm

zarmack wrote:Piccolo's 2 major power-ups in the series were arguably worse than any of the Saiyans. Neither involved any talent or hard work, just puts his hands on another Namekian and that's it lol.
There really should be some sort of restriction on this, otherwise it doesn't make sense to not abuse it when there are universe ending terrors out there.
I guess this makes Cabba the least asspull-ish Saiyan in the cast lmao.
Which is exactly why he is my favorite universe 6 Saiyan. He could've made an excellent rival for Gohan if built up properly. I thought the way he got SSJ was a bit ass-pull-y in the U6 tourney though, but that's just due to how it was written. Maybe if Vegeta beat him bloody to within an inch of his life then threatened his people it would've felt more dire. It's a shame Cabba doesn't get more spotlight because he's so tame compared to the lady monster Saiyans on his team.
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Re: Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

Post by zarmack » Sat Oct 27, 2018 5:06 pm

BWri wrote:
zarmack wrote:Piccolo's 2 major power-ups in the series were arguably worse than any of the Saiyans. Neither involved any talent or hard work, just puts his hands on another Namekian and that's it lol.
There really should be some sort of restriction on this, otherwise it doesn't make sense to not abuse it when there are universe ending terrors out there.
I guess this makes Cabba the least asspull-ish Saiyan in the cast lmao.
Which is exactly why he is my favorite universe 6 Saiyan. He could've made an excellent rival for Gohan if built up properly. I thought the way he got SSJ was a bit ass-pull-y in the U6 tourney though, but that's just due to how it was written. Maybe if Vegeta beat him bloody to within an inch of his life then threatened his people it would've felt more dire. It's a shame Cabba doesn't get more spotlight because he's so tame compared to the lady monster Saiyans on his team.
Its good to see another Cabba fan. I don't actually prefer him over Kale & Caulifla, but he's a very likeable, underrated character that could use more spotlight and development. He could be Vegeta's Uub.

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Re: Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

Post by BWri » Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:00 am

zarmack wrote:Its good to see another Cabba fan. I don't actually prefer him over Kale & Caulifla, but he's a very likeable, underrated character that could use more spotlight and development. He could be Vegeta's Uub.
Well said. I do like him in that Uub/Gohan apprentice role. I can see Vegeta and Goku's rivalry extended through their mentoring roles. I just wish they mentored Goten and Trunks more, but I like Cabba and Gohan more anyway.
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Re: Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

Post by Kataphrut » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:33 am

How do you define undeserved? All three of them got exactly one powerup that was given to them: Super Saiyan God for Goku, Potential Unleashed for Gohan, Babidi's power boost for Vegeta. Although Gohan also got a potential boosty from Guru, there was Goku with the Ultra Divine Water, Vegeta deliberately wounding himself to abuse zenkai and wark wark wark.

Are transformations achieved through emotional triggers rather than training considered "undeserved"? Because it's funny how people will dismiss some but not others when that represents the vast majority. Either we give Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta and Super Saiyan Rage Trunks the same pass we give Super Saiyan Goku and Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, or we throw them all under the bus and say the only character to truly earn their first Super Saiyan transformation was Caulifla.

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Re: Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

Post by Nokra » Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:18 pm

Kataphrut wrote:How do you define undeserved? All three of them got exactly one powerup that was given to them: Super Saiyan God for Goku, Potential Unleashed for Gohan, Babidi's power boost for Vegeta. Although Gohan also got a potential boosty from Guru, there was Goku with the Ultra Divine Water, Vegeta deliberately wounding himself to abuse zenkai and wark wark wark.

Are transformations achieved through emotional triggers rather than training considered "undeserved"? Because it's funny how people will dismiss some but not others when that represents the vast majority. Either we give Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta and Super Saiyan Rage Trunks the same pass we give Super Saiyan Goku and Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, or we throw them all under the bus and say the only character to truly earn their first Super Saiyan transformation was Caulifla.
It's not up to me to define what "undeserved" means for everyone. It's up to you because it's all opinionated anyway :thumbup:

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Re: Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

Post by Zamasu55 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:36 pm

Trunks.

Gohan, at least, never became God tier (we can clearly see this during his fight with Toppo).

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Re: Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

Post by zarmack » Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:54 pm

Zamasu55 wrote:Trunks.

Gohan, at least, never became God tier (we can clearly see this during his fight with Toppo).
Gohan is clearly at least SSB level in both versions of the ToP arc. Just because he was struggling with base Toppo (who, mind you, forced Goku into using Blue Kaioken times an unknown number in the preliminaries), doesn't mean he isn't God tier.

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Re: Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

Post by Zamasu55 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:21 pm

zarmack wrote:
Zamasu55 wrote:Trunks.

Gohan, at least, never became God tier (we can clearly see this during his fight with Toppo).
Gohan is clearly at least SSB level in both versions of the ToP arc. Just because he was struggling with base Toppo (who, mind you, forced Goku into using Blue Kaioken times an unknown number in the preliminaries), doesn't mean he isn't God tier.
He wasn't struggling, he was losing pretty badly.

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Re: Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

Post by AnimeNation101 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:25 pm

Gohan easily. Makes it that much more satisfying when he ends up not joining major fights like the Future Trunks arc and now the Broly movie.

Its called the Law of Equivalent Exchange.
I called it that Gogeta, Bardock, and something Broly related would be in the movie before it was even announced that it was a Broly movie. 8)

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Re: Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

Post by PFM18 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:51 am

AnimeNation101 wrote:Gohan easily. Makes it that much more satisfying when he ends up not joining major fights like the Future Trunks arc and now the Broly movie.

Its called the Law of Equivalent Exchange.
Agree 100%. Gohan getting huge, undeserved power-ups is Gohan's entire character so it is more satisfying when people that DID earn their power replace him in fights.

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Re: Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

Post by PFM18 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:55 am

zarmack wrote:
Zamasu55 wrote:Trunks.

Gohan, at least, never became God tier (we can clearly see this during his fight with Toppo).
Gohan is clearly at least SSB level in both versions of the ToP arc. Just because he was struggling with base Toppo (who, mind you, forced Goku into using Blue Kaioken times an unknown number in the preliminaries), doesn't mean he isn't God tier.
He's certainly not "at least" SSB level in either iteration of the story. In the anime, he doesn't display superiority over his father's SSB form in their sparring match and Base Toppo dominates him despite being dead even with SSB Vegeta earlier in the tournament and getting his ass kicked in the Exhibition match by SSB Goku before presumably going full-power. In the manga, Kururin speculates that he could be stronger than Goku if he trained more, this dialogue would not be necessary if he was already stronger than CSSB Goku.

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Re: Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

Post by AnimeNation101 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:15 am

PFM18 wrote:
AnimeNation101 wrote:Gohan easily. Makes it that much more satisfying when he ends up not joining major fights like the Future Trunks arc and now the Broly movie.

Its called the Law of Equivalent Exchange.
Agree 100%. Gohan getting huge, undeserved power-ups is Gohan's entire character so it is more satisfying when people that DID earn their power replace him in fights.
Exactly
I called it that Gogeta, Bardock, and something Broly related would be in the movie before it was even announced that it was a Broly movie. 8)

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Re: Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

Post by Master Xar » Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:15 pm

Well it’s an odd case for me personally. There’s an undeserved power-up and there’s an unavoidable undeserved power-up. And what I mean is that said character has or had absolutely NO way of closing the gap with any given training in their given time or lifespan. And in the case of Zenkais there’s struggle vs. how large the boost is.

In the case of SSJG Goku and the ritual. Well... it kinda needed to happen as there was no other way with Goku’s current methods, time, and training could be have ever matched SSJG’s power to impress Beerus with just SSJ3 in his pocket. In the manga’s case you can argue he’d somehow find a way to UI if he retrained under Master Roshi.

As far as Zenkai boosts go from the Saiyan Saga and Namek I feel the boosts should have been the other way around like the cheap self-injury Zenkai Vegeta got from Krillin should have yield the minimal results of the equivalent of Vegeta’s boost from 18,000 to 24,000 in the beginning of the arc while bone-crushing, spirit-breaking, war of attrition battles like the end of the Saiyan Saga should have got the 10x+ boosts as those were the more deserving battles and far worse injuries.

As far as the most undeserved power-up goes. I have to agree with Lord Beerus with Gohan’s Ultimate boost from Elder Kai hands down.
Not only is it simply an undeserved power-up. It’s undeserved power-up that could have been avoided unlike SSJG with Gohan’s insane potential and the loads of time given in 7 years. He could have easily matched the Ultimate’s power if not surpassed it by then had he just kept up with his training. While Buu was a monster and in comparison to Arc start was easily tens if not hundreds of times over Gohan in the beginning of the arc with his strongest iterations...

he was no Beerus.

The gap was nowhere near as large and the consequences of Gohan having Ultimate or not are nothing in comparison to if Goku gets the ritual or not in this situation.

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Re: Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

Post by TheShadowEmperor8055 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:17 am

It’s been reiterated many times, but Gohan hands down. I like Gohan and believe he should not have been shafted in Super, but I agree that getting undeserved power ups out of nowhere is his MO.

Must say I really like and agree with most of the replies in this thread. It’s hilarious how people can’t tolerate Trunks or the U6 Saiyan girls getting power ups and yet look over Gohan entirely... the double standards in the fandom do get quite annoying.

But back to the subject at hand, Gokū and Vegeta train their asses off for years and Gohan does not at all, and then through some ritual, he is arguably in the ballpark of SS3 Gokū? Hmm. Would have been better if Gohan just kept up with his training for those seven years.

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Re: Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

Post by ruler9871 » Sun May 19, 2019 11:51 pm

Nokra wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 6:44 am
zarmack wrote:Piccolo's 2 major power-ups in the series were arguably worse than any of the Saiyans. Neither involved any talent or hard work, just puts his hands on another Namekian and that's it lol.

Out of the all Saiyans, Gohan's are easily the most undeserved (Elder Kai boost, becoming SSB level in 1 day (anime), matching SSJ Kefla in base (manga)).

Followed by Goten/Present Trunks/Gotenks (turning SSJ1 into a joke, Gotenks unlocking SSJ3 just be thinking about it even though neither of his halves went bast SSJ1 lol).

Then its Cauilfla & Kefla (tingly-back nonsense, turning SSJ2 with no effort, Kefla somehow surpassing the first 2 UI Omens lol.)

After that its Goku (getting an over 33x zenkai boost to match Freeza on Namek, the God-Ritual which even he thought was lame, getting a zenkai boost to match Vegeta's 6 months on training in the ROSAT, getting a 10x zenkai boost to surpass Syn Shenron and arguably, UI in general (as cool as it was))

Next its Future Trunks (Spirit Sword asspull). However, SSJ Rage is actually kindly justifiable to me since the way he got isn't all that different from how Goku & Vegeta unlocked SSJ1 for the first time.

With the exceptions of taking the Majin boost (Z) and cheating his way into SSJ4 (GT), all of Vegeta's power-ups in the franchise are actually justified.

I'd also say Kale & Broly's power-ups were all justified considering the lore surrounding their powers and the fact that they were triggered by intense rage.

I guess this makes Cabba the least asspull-ish Saiyan in the cast lmao.
Good to know I'm not the only person who believes Trunks actually deserved SSJR :thumbup:
Add me to the list too. SSJ Rage is underrated by the fandom.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

Post by ruler9871 » Sun May 19, 2019 11:52 pm

TheShadowEmperor8055 wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:17 am
It’s been reiterated many times, but Gohan hands down. I like Gohan and believe he should not have been shafted in Super, but I agree that getting undeserved power ups out of nowhere is his MO.

Must say I really like and agree with most of the replies in this thread. It’s hilarious how people can’t tolerate Trunks or the U6 Saiyan girls getting power ups and yet look over Gohan entirely... the double standards in the fandom do get quite annoying.

But back to the subject at hand, Gokū and Vegeta train their asses off for years and Gohan does not at all, and then through some ritual, he is arguably in the ballpark of SS3 Gokū? Hmm. Would have been better if Gohan just kept up with his training for those seven years.
I agree with all of this.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Between Goku, Vegeta & Gohan Who Do You Think Has Received The Most Amount Of Undeserved Power-Ups/Transformations?

Post by Tai Lung » Mon May 20, 2019 12:26 am

some transformations came out of nowhere but goku trained for most of these.
it is not the case of gohan with his anger attacks or potential unlocking
vegeta mostly trained and did not achieve anything the only exception is in the BoG manga.

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