What was the point of Super Saiyan Rage?

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What was the point of Super Saiyan Rage?

Post by Dragon Ball Gus » Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:41 pm

There's a lot of people who complain about how Future Trunks pulled Super Saiyan Rage out of nowhere, and the fact that it wasn't given an explanation. Heck it wasn't even named in the show, the name came from Heroes. And I'm here like, "wait a minute, it really didn't even do anything." And before you guys replied to me by saying, "Well, Trunks needed that form to hold off Black and Zamasu, so that Goku and Vegeta can go back to the past, and figure out a plan to stop them" (which I still find to be pretty dumb considering that this is his arc), keep in mind that, he was already going toe-to-toe with them in his SSJ2 form. Which means that he could've just ket using his Super OP 2 to hold them off, instead of pulling some random new form out of nowhere. Which begs the question, What was even the point of SSJ Rage?!
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Re: What was the point of Super Saiyan Rage?

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:47 pm

Toei was laying the foundation for the saiyans "have no limits" concepts. Seeing trunks reach god level on his own sets up all the power buffs in the ToP and eventually the Broly film.

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Re: What was the point of Super Saiyan Rage?

Post by Jackalope89 » Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:58 pm

RecolorSaiyan wrote:Toei was laying the foundation for the saiyans "have no limits" concepts. Seeing trunks reach god level on his own sets up all the power buffs in the ToP and eventually the Broly film.
In all honesty, its never really been stated that Saiyans even have limits. Every single arc, the Saiyans keep hitting new levels of power, going back to even OG Dragon Ball.

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Re: What was the point of Super Saiyan Rage?

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:32 pm

The point of Super Saiyan Rage was to provide an entertaining, but ultimately thematically shallow, story and character beat that Toei felt was needed as at the point that Future Trunks attained the form, he had become a non-factor in battle and Toei wanted to find a way to incorporate him in the major combat(s) of the story without completely breaking the immersion of the stakes by treating him a combatant on the level of Super Saiyan Blue Goku/Vegeta, Super Saiyan Rose and Future Zamasu, when he clearly isn't on the same level. Expect for that five minute scuffle in EP 57.

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Re: What was the point of Super Saiyan Rage?

Post by Lukmendes » Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:57 pm

Jackalope89 wrote:In all honesty, its never really been stated that Saiyans even have limits. Every single arc, the Saiyans keep hitting new levels of power, going back to even OG Dragon Ball.
Well, at the very least Goku in particular claimed that him and Gohan were reaching their limits in Cell saga, he says they have taken their powers as far as they can go, but they end up surpassing it anyways lol.
Lord Beerus wrote:The point of Super Saiyan Rage was to provide an entertaining, but ultimately thematically shallow, story and character beat that Toei felt was needed as at the point that Future Trunks attained the form, he had become a non-factor in battle and Toei wanted to find a way to incorporate him in the major combat(s) of the story without completely breaking the immersion of the stakes by treating him a combatant on the level of Super Saiyan Blue Goku/Vegeta, Super Saiyan Rose and Future Zamasu, when he clearly isn't on the same level. Expect for that five minute scuffle in EP 57.
Lol yeah, funny that for SS Rage to make sense you have to ignore how well he fought in episode 57, sure he got his ass kicked in episode 61, but so did Vegeta and Goku before he got a rage boost, so episode 61 doesn't really do much to make Trunks look weaker... Then SS Rage has him getting the upper hand for a bit before getting his ass kicked, like every single time a character gets a power up in that story arc lol.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:08 am My man, all Goku had to do was go SSJ3 and shock Vegeta so much the M on his head would have turned into an L and Buu would have never happened.

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Re: What was the point of Super Saiyan Rage?

Post by nato25 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:15 am

Lukmendes wrote:
Jackalope89 wrote:In all honesty, its never really been stated that Saiyans even have limits. Every single arc, the Saiyans keep hitting new levels of power, going back to even OG Dragon Ball.
Well, at the very least Goku in particular claimed that him and Gohan were reaching their limits in Cell saga, he says they have taken their powers as far as they can go, but they end up surpassing it anyways lol.
Lord Beerus wrote:The point of Super Saiyan Rage was to provide an entertaining, but ultimately thematically shallow, story and character beat that Toei felt was needed as at the point that Future Trunks attained the form, he had become a non-factor in battle and Toei wanted to find a way to incorporate him in the major combat(s) of the story without completely breaking the immersion of the stakes by treating him a combatant on the level of Super Saiyan Blue Goku/Vegeta, Super Saiyan Rose and Future Zamasu, when he clearly isn't on the same level. Expect for that five minute scuffle in EP 57.
Lol yeah, funny that for SS Rage to make sense you have to ignore how well he fought in episode 57, sure he got his ass kicked in episode 61, but so did Vegeta and Goku before he got a rage boost, so episode 61 doesn't really do much to make Trunks look weaker... Then SS Rage has him getting the upper hand for a bit before getting his ass kicked, like every single time a character gets a power up in that story arc lol.
I think the Goku limits thing is fine, like at that time thats the best they were capable of and it ties in nicely with how Goku suggests rest 3 days, train 3 days, rest 3 days. Getting stronger should take time, its why ss rage feels like the most cheapest, ill explained form in the series, not too far from SSBE though. At least we can say Vegeta has worked hard and trained though, Trunks barely does any training in his arc and he doesnt seem to be the hardest worker, making it feel even less earned.

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Re: What was the point of Super Saiyan Rage?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:25 am

And before you guys replied to me by saying, "Well, Trunks needed that form to hold off Black and Zamasu, so that Goku and Vegeta can go back to the past, and figure out a plan to stop them" (which I still find to be pretty dumb considering that this is his arc), keep in mind that, he was already going toe-to-toe with them in his SSJ2 form. Which means that he could've just ket using his Super OP 2 to hold them off, instead of pulling some random new form out of nowhere. Which begs the question, What was even the point of SSJ Rage?!
I mean, It's true. Sure Trunks was somewhat useful in Super Saiyan 2 form for a while, but that wouldn't last for long. He certainly wouldn't have done jackshit to Fused Zamasu if he didn't have Rage. And even with Rage, Black and Zamasu thought that he was weak anyway, hence why Zamasu enough was supposed to be enough to kill him, Mai and Bulma in episode 64.

He was not going toe-to-toe with them in Super Saiyan 2. In episode 47, he was so weak that he didn't even bother trying to engage Goku Black. In episode 48, he engaged Goku Black (Base form and before the power-up from episode 50) and got bodied. In episode 57, he got one lucky shot at an unsuspecting Black, then proceeded to get roflstomped by him. Fast-forward to episode 61 and he was no match for Black before he got angrier and pulled Super Saiyan Rage out of his butt.

Explanation for Super Saiyan Rage: Future Trunks got angrier because Black and Zamasu called him a meanie.
Which begs the question, What was even the point of SSJ Rage?!
To show Trunks' immense willpower? To show that even mortals can stand up to the Gods with merely their own natural energy (It's not confirmed that the form has God ki)?

I don't know, I'm just making assumptions, I'm not certain that even Toei would know the answer to that question.

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Re: What was the point of Super Saiyan Rage?

Post by wolflonnie » Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:52 am

Lord Beerus wrote:The point of Super Saiyan Rage was to provide an entertaining, but ultimately thematically shallow, story and character beat that Toei felt was needed as at the point that Future Trunks attained the form, he had become a non-factor in battle and Toei wanted to find a way to incorporate him in the major combat(s) of the story without completely breaking the immersion of the stakes by treating him a combatant on the level of Super Saiyan Blue Goku/Vegeta, Super Saiyan Rose and Future Zamasu, when he clearly isn't on the same level. Expect for that five minute scuffle in EP 57.
This is the correct answer. Provide a way to keep Trunks somehow relevant and amaze the spectators how cool he is.

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Re: What was the point of Super Saiyan Rage?

Post by Rakurai » Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:03 am

You know what's the worst part? Fans still try to connect SSRage Trunks to SS Full Power Broly after all this time.

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Re: What was the point of Super Saiyan Rage?

Post by louisascommie » Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:57 am

Trunks should have just got blue

Have vegeta teach him in the time chamber

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Re: What was the point of Super Saiyan Rage?

Post by Furiza » Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:04 pm

A really bad form... Out of nothing.

Same goes for SSBE

I hope for a future TOEI series both will be forgotten like the movie isn't using SSBE

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Re: What was the point of Super Saiyan Rage?

Post by zarmack » Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:04 pm

louisascommie wrote:Trunks should have just got blue

Have vegeta teach him in the time chamber
I agree with this.

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Re: What was the point of Super Saiyan Rage?

Post by zarmack » Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:09 pm

Furiza wrote:A really bad form... Out of nothing.

Same goes for SSBE

I hope for a future TOEI series both will be forgotten like the movie isn't using SSBE
SSBE in the anime actually made thematic sense. It wasn't an asspull and the episode when he got the form literally explains and shows how he got it as he's powering up into it.

The way Future Trunks got SSJ Rage wasn't any different from how he, Goku & Vegeta got SSJ1 for the first time or how Gohan got SSJ2 in the Cell Games. All were cases of Saiyans being emotionally pushed over the edge after something traumatic happens to them.

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Re: What was the point of Super Saiyan Rage?

Post by TKA » Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:21 pm

Lukmendes wrote: Well, at the very least Goku in particular claimed that him and Gohan were reaching their limits in Cell saga, he says they have taken their powers as far as they can go, but they end up surpassing it anyways lol.
I think the series does a pretty good job of sticking to this, actually.

The form after 2 is completely useless and impractical for a living body to use because it has so much power. Mind you, that form was only attained by a fusion and a dead guy. No normal living person is supposed to have it.

And then no character really went past the Buu arc levels until God Ki got introduced, which opened a whole new world of power. So Goku was right: they did hit their limits as normal living people, but things have changed since then. It's like you've gotten as good at kicking as you can possibly get, so you start training in how to punch. It's not simply that they just yelled and got stronger.

It's pretty neat.

None of this applies to Gohan, though, whose entire schtick from introduction was that he had mind-boggling potential.
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Re: What was the point of Super Saiyan Rage?

Post by MKCSTEALTH » Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:26 pm

There's a lot about the Trunks arc that deserved a better explanation. How the Time Rings function, what Super Saiyan Rage was, how and what the Sword of Hope was. It would make sense if the form was described as Trunks gaining a small understanding of God Ki due to his limited training with Vegeta, and using what tiny fraction of it he experienced to amp his SSJ2 form.

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Re: What was the point of Super Saiyan Rage?

Post by Burakku » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:09 pm

I still think Ikari, SSBE etc and the stuff Toyo has done should never return again and for the next series they should only focus on the forms Toriyama has in mind... And at best evsn telling the SAME story

But sadly if they will retell the Broly movie... They will use "their" stuff... TOEI even more to sell toys... Even if they do not now how to name Ikari probably until this day... same goes for controlled Kaleh

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Re: What was the point of Super Saiyan Rage?

Post by Lukmendes » Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:40 pm

TKA wrote:
Lukmendes wrote: Well, at the very least Goku in particular claimed that him and Gohan were reaching their limits in Cell saga, he says they have taken their powers as far as they can go, but they end up surpassing it anyways lol.
I think the series does a pretty good job of sticking to this, actually.

The form after 2 is completely useless and impractical for a living body to use because it has so much power. Mind you, that form was only attained by a fusion and a dead guy. No normal living person is supposed to have it.

And then no character really went past the Buu arc levels until God Ki got introduced, which opened a whole new world of power. So Goku was right: they did hit their limits as normal living people, but things have changed since then. It's like you've gotten as good at kicking as you can possibly get, so you start training in how to punch. It's not simply that they just yelled and got stronger.

It's pretty neat.

None of this applies to Gohan, though, whose entire schtick from introduction was that he had mind-boggling potential.
Well, he was still wrong even if you don't count Super's stuff, since SS2 is a thing, and he didn't even know about it (The way he talked about it gives the impression he thought it was a Gohan exclusive thing).

And I wouldn't say that SS3 isn't supposed to be attainable by other saiyans, probaly was like that since the first time Goku talks about it he does talk like it's exclusive to dead people, but when Gotenks does it he drops that and just says that it took him a long time to do it and praises "the new generation's talent" without questioning how they got it without being dead, so it seems it's just a difficult transformation to get and that being dead just makes it better to be used.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:08 am My man, all Goku had to do was go SSJ3 and shock Vegeta so much the M on his head would have turned into an L and Buu would have never happened.

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Re: What was the point of Super Saiyan Rage?

Post by Son-Kakaroto » Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:04 pm

zarmack wrote:
Furiza wrote:A really bad form... Out of nothing.

Same goes for SSBE

I hope for a future TOEI series both will be forgotten like the movie isn't using SSBE
SSBE in the anime actually made thematic sense. It wasn't an asspull and the episode when he got the form literally explains and shows how he got it as he's powering up into it.

The way Future Trunks got SSJ Rage wasn't any different from how he, Goku & Vegeta got SSJ1 for the first time or how Gohan got SSJ2 in the Cell Games. All were cases of Saiyans being emotionally pushed over the edge after something traumatic happens to them.
No, it actually made little thematic sense. Vegeta got a random power-up out of nowhere that has little explanation other then "vegeta broke his limits" because he thought about cabba. That's a very poor explanation and came across as an "asspull". It didn't show sh$t. I mean, ssj blue evolution has little explanation to what it is other then some antiquated contrived power-up to blue.

ssj rage was garbage too, why he got the power-up wasn't terrible... but the lack of explanation of what the form is and why trunks only got it makes it nothing but shallow fan service.

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Re: What was the point of Super Saiyan Rage?

Post by zarmack » Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:31 pm

Son-Kakaroto wrote:
zarmack wrote:
Furiza wrote:A really bad form... Out of nothing.

Same goes for SSBE

I hope for a future TOEI series both will be forgotten like the movie isn't using SSBE
SSBE in the anime actually made thematic sense. It wasn't an asspull and the episode when he got the form literally explains and shows how he got it as he's powering up into it.

The way Future Trunks got SSJ Rage wasn't any different from how he, Goku & Vegeta got SSJ1 for the first time or how Gohan got SSJ2 in the Cell Games. All were cases of Saiyans being emotionally pushed over the edge after something traumatic happens to them.
No, it actually made little thematic sense. Vegeta got a random power-up out of nowhere that has little explanation other then "vegeta broke his limits" because he thought about cabba. That's a very poor explanation and came across as an "asspull". It didn't show sh$t. I mean, ssj blue evolution has little explanation to what it is other then some antiquated contrived power-up to blue.

ssj rage was garbage too, why he got the power-up wasn't terrible... but the lack of explanation of what the form is and why trunks only got it makes it nothing but shallow fan service.
Way to strawman bro smh.

SSBE wasn't just Vegeta thinking about Cabba. And the form was foreshadowed throughout ep.122 (with numerous visual and verbal hints about Vegeta getting something like UI) before finally revealing it in ep.123. SSBE was Vegeta using his pride to willing pushing himself and the SSB form over the edge to keep his promise to Cabba and Bulma and win the ToP. Hardly an asspull.

A form lacking explanation in dialogue nor a name doesn't make it bad, so that was a shallow argument you made. None of the SSJ Grades nor SSJ2 got a name in the Android arc itself (only afterwards in guides) either.

Just because you don't like a power up doesn't mean its an asspull.

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Re: What was the point of Super Saiyan Rage?

Post by Son-Kakaroto » Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:51 pm

zarmack wrote:
Son-Kakaroto wrote:
zarmack wrote:
SSBE in the anime actually made thematic sense. It wasn't an asspull and the episode when he got the form literally explains and shows how he got it as he's powering up into it.

The way Future Trunks got SSJ Rage wasn't any different from how he, Goku & Vegeta got SSJ1 for the first time or how Gohan got SSJ2 in the Cell Games. All were cases of Saiyans being emotionally pushed over the edge after something traumatic happens to them.
No, it actually made little thematic sense. Vegeta got a random power-up out of nowhere that has little explanation other then "vegeta broke his limits" because he thought about cabba. That's a very poor explanation and came across as an "asspull". It didn't show sh$t. I mean, ssj blue evolution has little explanation to what it is other then some antiquated contrived power-up to blue.

ssj rage was garbage too, why he got the power-up wasn't terrible... but the lack of explanation of what the form is and why trunks only got it makes it nothing but shallow fan service.
Way to strawman bro smh.

SSBE wasn't just Vegeta thinking about Cabba. And the form was foreshadowed throughout ep.122 (with numerous visual and verbal hints about Vegeta getting something like UI) before finally revealing it in ep.123. SSBE was Vegeta using his pride to willing pushing himself and the SSB form over the edge to keep his promise to Cabba and Bulma and win the ToP. Hardly an asspull.

A form lacking explanation in dialogue nor a name doesn't make it bad, so that was a shallow argument you made. None of the SSJ Grades nor SSJ2 got a name in the Android arc itself (only afterwards in guides) either.

Just because you don't like a power up doesn't mean its an asspull.
What does UI have to do with ssbE? My point being how does him dodging jiren's technique or spouting about his pride foreshadow a new form? "using his pride", where did you get that from? The show literally just states he broke his limits - no mention because of his "pride".
At least as an viewer you knew vegeta and trunks had to work effortelssy to get those forms in the HTC... instead of pulling it out of no where. Plus those forms are explained, it does not matter when - unlike ssj blue E which yet has nothing.

it's an asspull. The form came out of nowhere, and has no little informative explanation for its existence in the first place. It was lazy writing and cheap fan service. Toei could have actauly been creative and give vegeta something like an technique, ability or an attack that would better represent the internal character arc taking place before him. But supers anime really lacks any sort of imaginative ability and creativity nowadays... may be due to the fact it's audience is targeted for children....

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