Regarding what’s canon to what, Super doesn’t really work as a continuation of Kai

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

WittyUsername
I Live Here
Posts: 2304
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 am
Location: Houston, Texas

Regarding what’s canon to what, Super doesn’t really work as a continuation of Kai

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:09 pm

I’ve more or less given up on trying to determine what is canon to what at this point. Back when BoG and RF were released, it was pretty easy to view those as being continuations of the manga that had no connection to the anime, but Super ended up complicating things by not only retelling the events of those movies with some notable differences, but also by having both an anime and manga version of the series. If Super had simply been an anime series, I suppose we could’ve assumed that was to be the official continuation of the manga, but the fact that there’s a manga version of the story only serves to make things messy. Nevertheless, I’ve seen people trying to rationalize all this by arguing that the manga for Super is the true continuation of Toriyama’s original manga, while the anime is a continuation of Kai. The problem is, that doesn’t really work when you get right down to it.

First, it’s important to keep in mind that while Kai did strive to be a more accurate retelling of Toriyama’s original manga, Toriyama had no involvement in the decisions that Toei made for the series. While Toei did get rid of a lot of filler moments from the old anime, they also kept certain things that only served to contradict what would later be established. For example, as far as Kai is concerned, the Bardock special is unmistakably canon, which means that instead of being sent to Earth as a toddler by his parents in order to keep him safe, Goku was sent to Earth as an infant in order to conquer it. Needless to say, that doesn’t work with what Toriyama would later establish with Jaco the Galactic Patrolman and Dragon Ball Minus.

Second, during the Buu arc, Toei decided to keep that filler scene of all the dead villains in Hell watching Goku and Vegeta’s fight with Buu, which also creates a problem. Not only is the old Toei version of Hell completely different from the Hell that Toriyama would later envision, but Freeza wasn’t a cyborg during that scene, he wouldn’t have shared a Hell with the other villains, and in Super, he didn’t learn about Goku having defeated Majin Buu until after he was brought back to life by Sorbet.

I know that people want to try and place the canon of the franchise neatly into these little bubbles, but that doesn’t really work anymore. The truth is that the franchise as a whole has become far too messy for there to really be any one true canon. Even the manga for Super has recently contradicted Toriyama’s original manga by having Goku reference Mount Paozu.

User avatar
Son-Kakaroto
Temporarily Banned
Posts: 120
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:01 pm

Re: Regarding what’s canon to what, Super doesn’t really work as a continuation of Kai

Post by Son-Kakaroto » Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:29 pm

WittyUsername wrote:I’ve more or less given up on trying to determine what is canon to what at this point. Back when BoG and RF were released, it was pretty easy to view those as being continuations of the manga that had no connection to the anime, but Super ended up complicating things by not only retelling the events of those movies with some notable differences, but also by having both an anime and manga version of the series. If Super had simply been an anime series, I suppose we could’ve assumed that was to be the official continuation of the manga, but the fact that there’s a manga version of the story only serves to make things messy. Nevertheless, I’ve seen people trying to rationalize all this by arguing that the manga for Super is the true continuation of Toriyama’s original manga, while the anime is a continuation of Kai. The problem is, that doesn’t really work when you get right down to it.

First, it’s important to keep in mind that while Kai did strive to be a more accurate retelling of Toriyama’s original manga, Toriyama had no involvement in the decisions that Toei made for the series. While Toei did get rid of a lot of filler moments from the old anime, they also kept certain things that only served to contradict what would later be established. For example, as far as Kai is concerned, the Bardock special is unmistakably canon, which means that instead of being sent to Earth as a toddler by his parents in order to keep him safe, Goku was sent to Earth as an infant in order to conquer it. Needless to say, that doesn’t work with what Toriyama would later establish with Jaco the Galactic Patrolman and Dragon Ball Minus.

Second, during the Buu arc, Toei decided to keep that filler scene of all the dead villains in Hell watching Goku and Vegeta’s fight with Buu, which also creates a problem. Not only is the old Toei version of Hell completely different from the Hell that Toriyama would later envision, but Freeza wasn’t a cyborg during that scene, he wouldn’t have shared a Hell with the other villains, and in Super, he didn’t learn about Goku having defeated Majin Buu until after he was brought back to life by Sorbet.

I know that people want to try and place the canon of the franchise neatly into these little bubbles, but that doesn’t really work anymore. The truth is that the franchise as a whole has become far too messy for there to really be any one true canon. Even the manga for Super has recently contradicted Toriyama’s original manga by having Goku reference Mount Paozu.
Db manga -> dbs anime (or dbs manga as an alternative)
Db anime -> db kai -> dbs anime
db anime -> dbz -> dbs anime (or GT as an alternative)
That's how I see it. I kinda ignore the movie rof and bog since they are re told in dbs

User avatar
Mister_Popo
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 819
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:12 pm

Re: Regarding what’s canon to what, Super doesn’t really work as a continuation of Kai

Post by Mister_Popo » Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:48 pm

Strictly speaking only the original manga, works like Jaco, Minus and the scripts , drawings Toriyama made for the "new continuity" are hardcore canon.
Because a few scripts and drawings cannot be seen as a "official product of the franchise", it's perfectly reasonable to call the derivatives (anime, movies and manga) canon, because they all contain the same basic plot outlines determined by the current author. Just like DB Kai and the original anime run minus the filler can be seen as canon, being the adaptations of the original manga.

User avatar
Rakurai
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1258
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:48 pm
Contact:

Re: Regarding what’s canon to what, Super doesn’t really work as a continuation of Kai

Post by Rakurai » Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:52 pm

WittyUsername wrote:Even the manga for Super has recently contradicted Toriyama’s original manga by having Goku reference Mount Paozu.
That is no way a contradiction to the original manga.

Toyotarou's DBS manga is officially called the canonical sequel to the original manga. That's actually a fact.
Super Dragon Ball Heroes Universe Mission translation compilation here. All translations are done and owned by me.

SDBH 9th anniversary the secret development interview here. Learn how original SDBH characters such as SS3 Raditz, SS4 Bardock, Robel, & more were conceived!

precita
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5468
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:10 pm

Re: Regarding what’s canon to what, Super doesn’t really work as a continuation of Kai

Post by precita » Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:08 pm

Kai is just a directors cut. It's not meant to replace DBZ.

Basically it's DB/DBZ/Super
Or manga DB/DBZ/Super

WittyUsername
I Live Here
Posts: 2304
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 am
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Regarding what’s canon to what, Super doesn’t really work as a continuation of Kai

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:40 pm

Rakurai wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:Even the manga for Super has recently contradicted Toriyama’s original manga by having Goku reference Mount Paozu.
That is no way a contradiction to the original manga.

Toyotarou's DBS manga is officially called the canonical sequel to the original manga. That's actually a fact.
When was that ever stated? I thought the manga was initially made to promote the anime?

User avatar
OhHiRenan
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 278
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:44 pm
Location: MA
Contact:

Re: Regarding what’s canon to what, Super doesn’t really work as a continuation of Kai

Post by OhHiRenan » Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:49 pm

precita wrote:Kai is just a directors cut. It's not meant to replace DBZ.

Basically it's DB/DBZ/Super
Or manga DB/DBZ/Super
It does replace Z in the context of Super since Z immediately transitions into GT whereas Kai immediately transitions into Super.
Check out my video game & Dragon Ball write-ups here: https://www.goombastomp.com/author/renan-fontes/

WittyUsername
I Live Here
Posts: 2304
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 am
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Regarding what’s canon to what, Super doesn’t really work as a continuation of Kai

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:07 pm

OhHiRenan wrote:
precita wrote:Kai is just a directors cut. It's not meant to replace DBZ.

Basically it's DB/DBZ/Super
Or manga DB/DBZ/Super
It does replace Z in the context of Super since Z immediately transitions into GT whereas Kai immediately transitions into Super.
But the performance of Kai wasn’t what led to the existence of Super, so that’s not really the best comparison.

User avatar
Dragon Wukong
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 277
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:06 am

Re: Regarding what’s canon to what, Super doesn’t really work as a continuation of Kai

Post by Dragon Wukong » Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:16 pm

To be fair to the Super manga, referencing Mount Paozu doesn't contradict the original manga. It just references an element that up to this point only appeared in the anime. Contradicting the manga would be doing something like pretending Gregory existed, or referencing Trunks getting Super Saiyan when Gohan died..

User avatar
Rakurai
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1258
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:48 pm
Contact:

Re: Regarding what’s canon to what, Super doesn’t really work as a continuation of Kai

Post by Rakurai » Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:11 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Rakurai wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:Even the manga for Super has recently contradicted Toriyama’s original manga by having Goku reference Mount Paozu.
That is no way a contradiction to the original manga.

Toyotarou's DBS manga is officially called the canonical sequel to the original manga. That's actually a fact.
When was that ever stated? I thought the manga was initially made to promote the anime?
Image

Image

魔人ブウ編の "その後" を描いた、「ドラゴンボール」の正統続編。

正統続編 = canonical sequel
Super Dragon Ball Heroes Universe Mission translation compilation here. All translations are done and owned by me.

SDBH 9th anniversary the secret development interview here. Learn how original SDBH characters such as SS3 Raditz, SS4 Bardock, Robel, & more were conceived!

WittyUsername
I Live Here
Posts: 2304
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 am
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Regarding what’s canon to what, Super doesn’t really work as a continuation of Kai

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:02 pm

Rakurai wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:
Rakurai wrote:
That is no way a contradiction to the original manga.

Toyotarou's DBS manga is officially called the canonical sequel to the original manga. That's actually a fact.
When was that ever stated? I thought the manga was initially made to promote the anime?
Image

Image

魔人ブウ編の "その後" を描いた、「ドラゴンボール」の正統続編。

正統続編 = canonical sequel
Wasn’t the same thing said about the anime? That source didn’t even specify the original manga. Besides, isn’t that just an ad?

User avatar
Rakurai
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1258
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:48 pm
Contact:

Re: Regarding what’s canon to what, Super doesn’t really work as a continuation of Kai

Post by Rakurai » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:44 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Wasn’t the same thing said about the anime? That source didn’t even specify the original manga. Besides, isn’t that just an ad?
It's not an ad, it's part of a timeline of the DB manga created by Shueisha for the Broly Skyline Exhibit, and translated by Viz Media for the DB North American tour. This is as official as one can get with regards to canonical sequel statements.
Super Dragon Ball Heroes Universe Mission translation compilation here. All translations are done and owned by me.

SDBH 9th anniversary the secret development interview here. Learn how original SDBH characters such as SS3 Raditz, SS4 Bardock, Robel, & more were conceived!

WittyUsername
I Live Here
Posts: 2304
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 am
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Regarding what’s canon to what, Super doesn’t really work as a continuation of Kai

Post by WittyUsername » Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:24 am

:shifty:
Rakurai wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:
Wasn’t the same thing said about the anime? That source didn’t even specify the original manga. Besides, isn’t that just an ad?
It's not an ad, it's part of a timeline of the DB manga created by Shueisha for the Broly Skyline Exhibit, and translated by Viz Media for the DB North American tour. This is as official as one can get with regards to canonical sequel statements.
No offense, but it really seems like you’re reading too much into that. I don’t see how a Viz Media statement (and Shueisha does own Viz Media) can really be considered definitive. I don’t think Toriyama even thinks about which one is the official continuation of his work. He also apparently had a direct hand in the upcoming Broly movie, which he claims follows the anime. Does that make that version non canon? What about if Toei decides to retell the events of the film once Super inevitably comes back?

Plus as I’ve mentioned earlier, Super was initially conceived as an anime series, whereas the manga was primarily meant to serve as promotional material. It’s evolved into its own thing at this point, but I don’t understand why anyone would be so insistent on the idea that it’s anymore canon to the manga than the anime is. As I said in the OP, canon in Dragon Ball has become a confusing mess at this point, and a publishing company calling the thing they’re distributing the “canon sequel” doesn’t strike me as truly concrete confirmation.

User avatar
Rakurai
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1258
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:48 pm
Contact:

Re: Regarding what’s canon to what, Super doesn’t really work as a continuation of Kai

Post by Rakurai » Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:34 am

WittyUsername wrote: No offense, but it really seems like you’re reading too much into that. I don’t see how a Viz Media statement (and Shueisha does own Viz Media) can really be considered definitive. I don’t think Toriyama even thinks about which one is the official continuation of his work. He also apparently had a direct hand in the upcoming Broly movie, which he claims follows the anime. Does that make that version non canon? What about if Toei decides to retell the events of the film once Super inevitably comes back?

Plus as I’ve mentioned earlier, Super was initially conceived as an anime series, whereas the manga was primarily meant to serve as promotional material. It’s evolved into its own thing at this point, but I don’t understand why anyone would be so insistent on the idea that it’s anymore canon to the manga than the anime is. As I said in the OP, canon in Dragon Ball has become a confusing mess at this point, and a publishing company calling the thing they’re distributing the “canon sequel” doesn’t strike me as truly concrete confirmation.
Shueisha literally owns the rights to DB. The company issecond only to Toriyama himself to decide what is legitimately canon or not to his manga. I will take their word or statement over any random internet fans' any day of the week.

The DBS manga follows from the DB manga, and again has been stated to be the canonical sequel to the manga. The same cannot be said for the DBS anime, which follows more from Z/Kai despite the different depiction of Hell.

I don't put this out to spite anime vs manga debates because frankly I don't care much for those. I put this out to organize proper continuities. That's how I label my canon.

The DBS manga follows from the original manga, and that is fact evident in both the story and by official marketing/media. One location name from the anime doesn't contradict that notion, and based on how you use it I'm not sure you understand what it means either. Or are we going to say that the Namek saga is not canon because it referenced the Bardock TV special?
Super Dragon Ball Heroes Universe Mission translation compilation here. All translations are done and owned by me.

SDBH 9th anniversary the secret development interview here. Learn how original SDBH characters such as SS3 Raditz, SS4 Bardock, Robel, & more were conceived!

User avatar
Saturnine
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1471
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:45 am

Re: Regarding what’s canon to what, Super doesn’t really work as a continuation of Kai

Post by Saturnine » Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:41 am

There is no such thing as "something canon to something else". There's just "canon" and "not canon". That you probably mean is something entorely consistent with another part of the franchise, which in post BoG Dragon Ball is very difficult to determine, really.

User avatar
Baggie_Saiyan
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10237
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:22 pm
Location: Atlantis.

Re: Regarding what’s canon to what, Super doesn’t really work as a continuation of Kai

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:26 am

WittyUsername wrote:
Rakurai wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:
When was that ever stated? I thought the manga was initially made to promote the anime?
魔人ブウ編の "その後" を描いた、「ドラゴンボール」の正統続編。

正統続編 = canonical sequel
Wasn’t the same thing said about the anime? That source didn’t even specify the original manga. Besides, isn’t that just an ad?
It also doesn't say anything against the DBS anime at all and everyone knows that is the main product. Hell Toyo's manga is gonna adapt the Broly story different so I wonder whatt people are gonna say to that "oh this is Toriyama's true vision for this story because xyz reason". We already know it's going against his vision but I'm sure people will make an excuse why it isn't.

User avatar
BlueBasilisk
I Live Here
Posts: 3061
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:58 am

Re: Regarding what’s canon to what, Super doesn’t really work as a continuation of Kai

Post by BlueBasilisk » Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:30 am

Saturnine wrote:There is no such thing as "something canon to something else". There's just "canon" and "not canon". That you probably mean is something entorely consistent with another part of the franchise, which in post BoG Dragon Ball is very difficult to determine, really.
Super strikes me as a show that takes a 'broad strokes' approach. It includes anime-original stuff like Gregory or Satan's students or the History of Trunks so it doesn't fit cleanly with the manga but also it doesn't fit cleanly with either version of the Z anime either because of Frieza in hell and it accepting Minus/Jaco as the official backstory. It takes elements from multiple versions of the story but doesn't fully commit to any one.

WittyUsername
I Live Here
Posts: 2304
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 am
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Regarding what’s canon to what, Super doesn’t really work as a continuation of Kai

Post by WittyUsername » Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:10 am

Rakurai wrote:
WittyUsername wrote: No offense, but it really seems like you’re reading too much into that. I don’t see how a Viz Media statement (and Shueisha does own Viz Media) can really be considered definitive. I don’t think Toriyama even thinks about which one is the official continuation of his work. He also apparently had a direct hand in the upcoming Broly movie, which he claims follows the anime. Does that make that version non canon? What about if Toei decides to retell the events of the film once Super inevitably comes back?

Plus as I’ve mentioned earlier, Super was initially conceived as an anime series, whereas the manga was primarily meant to serve as promotional material. It’s evolved into its own thing at this point, but I don’t understand why anyone would be so insistent on the idea that it’s anymore canon to the manga than the anime is. As I said in the OP, canon in Dragon Ball has become a confusing mess at this point, and a publishing company calling the thing they’re distributing the “canon sequel” doesn’t strike me as truly concrete confirmation.
Shueisha literally owns the rights to DB. The company issecond only to Toriyama himself to decide what is legitimately canon or not to his manga. I will take their word or statement over any random internet fans' any day of the week.

The DBS manga follows from the DB manga, and again has been stated to be the canonical sequel to the manga. The same cannot be said for the DBS anime, which follows more from Z/Kai despite the different depiction of Hell.

I don't put this out to spite anime vs manga debates because frankly I don't care much for those. I put this out to organize proper continuities. That's how I label my canon.

The DBS manga follows from the original manga, and that is fact evident in both the story and by official marketing/media. One location name from the anime doesn't contradict that notion, and based on how you use it I'm not sure you understand what it means either. Or are we going to say that the Namek saga is not canon because it referenced the Bardock TV special?
I don’t understand what you’re trying to get at. Toei also owns the rights to DB, but they aren’t the ones who created the franchise.

Besides, “Mount Paozu” being the name of Goku’s home is something that Toei made up. My initial point was that referencing something that was exclusive to Toei’s version of the series kind of goes against the notion that the manga is entirely Toriyama’s vision. I seriously doubt that Toriyama insisted that Toyatoro randomly reference a name from the anime.

superfan2024
Regular
Posts: 652
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: Regarding what’s canon to what, Super doesn’t really work as a continuation of Kai

Post by superfan2024 » Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:27 am

Super is just based upon Toriyama's outlines with the staff fleshing it out with their own ideas. The staff behind Super use whatever continuity they want from episode to episode. The Gohan Saiyaman filler in episode 73 of Super featured a flashback to Gohan and Videl fighting those two guys from the Saiyaman Saga in the OG 42 volumes; however, that never occurred in the Z anime and was replaced by a different scenario. But then, we have anime-only esque things like Gregory's existence on Kaio's planet.

User avatar
Rakurai
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1258
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:48 pm
Contact:

Re: Regarding what’s canon to what, Super doesn’t really work as a continuation of Kai

Post by Rakurai » Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:52 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
I don’t understand what you’re trying to get at. Toei also owns the rights to DB, but they aren’t the ones who created the franchise.

Besides, “Mount Paozu” being the name of Goku’s home is something that Toei made up. My initial point was that referencing something that was exclusive to Toei’s version of the series kind of goes against the notion that the manga is entirely Toriyama’s vision. I seriously doubt that Toriyama insisted that Toyatoro randomly reference a name from the anime.
Toei owns the rights to producing the anime. Let me put it this way for you.

Toei made up Bardock's original story. Toriyama still incorporated it into his manga during serialization, before he retconned it (and he is allowed to because he is the author).

Toei made up Broly. Toriyama still incorporated the character into his story.

Toriyama is free to take whatever he wants from any part of the DB franchise and adapt it into his own DB story, hence why he have stuff like Bardock or Broly. Likewise, Toyotarou can take whatever he wants and incorporate it into the manga whether it came from anime or video games, and as long as it doesn't contradict the original manga then it remains a proper canonical sequel.

The DBS manga logically follows the original manga. The same cannot be said from the anime. BlueBasilisk said it best, the anime takes a 'broad-strokes' approach with regards to it which does not work as a canonical sequel. The F. Trunks TV special does not tell the events of F. Trunks as is supposed to be in the original manga story just because the anime decided to adapt it into the Super anime.
Saturnine wrote:There is no such thing as "something canon to something else". There's just "canon" and "not canon". That you probably mean is something entorely consistent with another part of the franchise, which in post BoG Dragon Ball is very difficult to determine, really.
The canonical sequel to the DB manga is the manga, not the anime.
Super Dragon Ball Heroes Universe Mission translation compilation here. All translations are done and owned by me.

SDBH 9th anniversary the secret development interview here. Learn how original SDBH characters such as SS3 Raditz, SS4 Bardock, Robel, & more were conceived!

Post Reply