Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

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nato25
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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by nato25 » Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:01 pm

Hopefully we get some explanation about it rather than Vegeta just smirking and powering up into it but I doubt it, I think they'll just expect us to assume he learned to do it or performed the ritual somewhere between episodes 14 and 28 or whenever they go SSB.

In my opinion its fairly likely he just learns it while focusing his God Ki in Whis staff. Its a precursor to SSB.

Yeah its wierd he never uses it in Super, if Goku found uses for it in the ToP and fights prior why wouldn't Vegeta?

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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by PFM18 » Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:11 pm

nato25 wrote:Yeah its wierd he never uses it in Super, if Goku found uses for it in the ToP and fights prior why wouldn't Vegeta?
Do you mind naming these fights prior where Goku used SSG where Vegeta didn't?

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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by Miracles » Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:52 pm

It's all due to the fandoms assumptions. They assumed Goku shouldn't have used red anymore after absorbing it. Even tho Beerus said gods red light still burns in him.
Why would Vegeta not have red when he has the Super Saiyan form of red which is Blue?

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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by nato25 » Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:20 pm

PFM18 wrote:
nato25 wrote:Yeah its wierd he never uses it in Super, if Goku found uses for it in the ToP and fights prior why wouldn't Vegeta?
Do you mind naming these fights prior where Goku used SSG where Vegeta didn't?
Sorry I think I was getting a bit confused with the Manga and the Zamasu fight. I think it is strange neither Goku or Vegeta bothered with the form at all during that fight but that doesn't really have any relevance to the anime.

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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by Lukmendes » Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:32 pm

nato25 wrote:Sorry I think I was getting a bit confused with the Manga and the Zamasu fight. I think it is strange neither Goku or Vegeta bothered with the form at all during that fight but that doesn't really have any relevance to the anime.
They didn't have a reason to use it in the anime since Black and Zamasu were already stronger than them, using a weaker form would just increase the beating they would take.

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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by nato25 » Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:51 pm

Lukmendes wrote:
nato25 wrote:Sorry I think I was getting a bit confused with the Manga and the Zamasu fight. I think it is strange neither Goku or Vegeta bothered with the form at all during that fight but that doesn't really have any relevance to the anime.
They didn't have a reason to use it in the anime since Black and Zamasu were already stronger than them, using a weaker form would just increase the beating they would take.
I'd argue Zamasu was easily weaker (albeit immortal) but fair point.

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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by Mister_Popo » Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:53 pm

God-Ki can be obtained through ritual (temporarily) or extented training with a deity.
Whis has taught them both God-Ki. Nothing controversial as such.
Red is basically God-Ki in baseform, not combined with SSJ.
As Red is a viable option to use God-Ki with less stamina consumption, it's very normal for Vegeta to use that option too.

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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by Lukmendes » Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:30 pm

nato25 wrote:
Lukmendes wrote:
nato25 wrote:Sorry I think I was getting a bit confused with the Manga and the Zamasu fight. I think it is strange neither Goku or Vegeta bothered with the form at all during that fight but that doesn't really have any relevance to the anime.
They didn't have a reason to use it in the anime since Black and Zamasu were already stronger than them, using a weaker form would just increase the beating they would take.
I'd argue Zamasu was easily weaker (albeit immortal) but fair point.
Even if he is weaker, it's not by a big margin, Future Zamasu was fighting quite well without taking much hits, a significant ammount of them were even on purpose.

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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by nato25 » Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:46 pm

Lukmendes wrote:
nato25 wrote:
Lukmendes wrote:
They didn't have a reason to use it in the anime since Black and Zamasu were already stronger than them, using a weaker form would just increase the beating they would take.
I'd argue Zamasu was easily weaker (albeit immortal) but fair point.
Even if he is weaker, it's not by a big margin, Future Zamasu was fighting quite well without taking much hits, a significant ammount of them were even on purpose.
I probably won't reply further to this to not derail the topic, but I think Zamasu is actually a fair bit weaker than anyone else in that fight, I'd put him above where he is initially placed, around SSJ2 level. If he wasn't immortal he would have easily been killed by everyone there including Trunks.

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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by PFM18 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:11 am

nato25 wrote:
Lukmendes wrote:
nato25 wrote:
I'd argue Zamasu was easily weaker (albeit immortal) but fair point.
Even if he is weaker, it's not by a big margin, Future Zamasu was fighting quite well without taking much hits, a significant ammount of them were even on purpose.
I probably won't reply further to this to not derail the topic, but I think Zamasu is actually a fair bit weaker than anyone else in that fight, I'd put him above where he is initially placed, around SSJ2 level. If he wasn't immortal he would have easily been killed by everyone there including Trunks.
I agree with this. But yeah there truly was never a reason for them to use it in the anime. The only reason it needed to be used in the manga was because Toyotsro decided he would contradict the entire RoF arc/movie.

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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by Lukmendes » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:59 am

nato25 wrote:
Lukmendes wrote:
nato25 wrote:
I'd argue Zamasu was easily weaker (albeit immortal) but fair point.
Even if he is weaker, it's not by a big margin, Future Zamasu was fighting quite well without taking much hits, a significant ammount of them were even on purpose.
I probably won't reply further to this to not derail the topic, but I think Zamasu is actually a fair bit weaker than anyone else in that fight, I'd put him above where he is initially placed, around SSJ2 level. If he wasn't immortal he would have easily been killed by everyone there including Trunks.
He might be the weakest, but again, not by a big margin, despite being immortal he doesn't take many hits, and deals well with anyone he's fighting with even without Black's help (When both briefly fought Trunks in episode 63, Zamasu was even the one who fought better), so I doubt he would have been killed easily.

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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by Rebel Instinct » Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:14 pm

PFM18 wrote:
nato25 wrote:
Lukmendes wrote:
Even if he is weaker, it's not by a big margin, Future Zamasu was fighting quite well without taking much hits, a significant ammount of them were even on purpose.
I probably won't reply further to this to not derail the topic, but I think Zamasu is actually a fair bit weaker than anyone else in that fight, I'd put him above where he is initially placed, around SSJ2 level. If he wasn't immortal he would have easily been killed by everyone there including Trunks.
I agree with this. But yeah there truly was never a reason for them to use it in the anime. The only reason it needed to be used in the manga was because Toyotsro decided he would contradict the entire RoF arc/movie.
Except for the part where Toriyama says he closely monitored the inclusion of Super Saiyan God Vegeta in the manga and greatly approved of Toyotaro's idea.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... alk-vol-2/
Super Saiyan God Vegeta likewise only appeared in the manga version.

Toriyama:
I supervised that. I remember (laughs). It was fun to see Toyotarō-sensei‘s ideas start coming out more and more.
But, whatever satisfies the constant, all-consuming hateboner you have for the manga/Toyotaro that you love to wag around in just about every thread you comment in (regardless of whether or not the manga is even being discussed).

We'll also leave out the fact that the anime (and the upcoming movie directed by Toriyama himself) also adopted the the stamina issues for Super Saiyan Blue. Eh, but that's in the anime and thus totally a-okay. Keep on throwing the manga/Toyotaro under the bus every chance you get though - especially when it's not relevant to the discussion at hand! You're really doing a much needed service to the community! :thumbup:
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LightBing wrote:Most of what's going on here isn't speculation, it's judgments and conclusions. It's the reason why the manga thread is closed, it's the reason why VegettoEX warned people not to do what they are doing a few pages ago.

It's people riveting on their chance to feel validated in their opinion; to attack the "manga fans" (whatever that means) to prove themselves. My assumption is that everyone here is a Dragon Ball fan, capable of having discussions as equals and not segregate ourselves into little sectors trying to be the "superior faction", ignoring arguments, politeness and even common sense (like having all the information at hand).

Clearly I am mistaken.

I wish we were having fun making up theories or cracking jokes.

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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:32 pm

Just because the SSG appeared once through a ritual, it disappeared, and only came back 90 episodes later without any explanation.

We already knew that SSG could be obtained through training, but why when Goku and Vegeta trained with Whis and got the SSB nothing was said about how they also got the SSG's power (especially Vegeta)? This would avoid much confusion when this transformation returned on EP 104.

And the most inexplicable of all this is that throughout ToP Vegeta had several opportunities to use this transformation (mainly because it was stressed several times that the SSB spent a lot of energy), but this did not happen.

Now they put a lot of hype into Vegeta SSG in the new movie (and they even talked about how Vegeta SSG would only show up because of Toyotaro's manga), and he'll probably be totally useless in the fight against Broly

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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by Saturnine » Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:45 pm

The thing with SSj God is that once you've got Blue, using it is purely arbitrary. SSj Blue has been demonstrated to be suppressable to hardly above regular SSj levels, which is well below God. So Vegeta not using it thus far is perfectly justified.

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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:12 pm

Saturnine wrote:The thing with SSj God is that once you've got Blue, using it is purely arbitrary. SSj Blue has been demonstrated to be suppressable to hardly above regular SSj levels, which is well below God. So Vegeta not using it thus far is perfectly justified.
Even though Goku and Vegeta can suppress as much as they want with SSB, it's still a transformation that spends a lot of energy. SSG is stronger than SSJ and spends less energy than SSB, which would be a much better transformation to use in the ToP against weaker opponents.

Against Aniraza, while Goku used the SSG and was defeated, Vegeta continued with only the common SSJ, which does not make sense since it was obvious that this would not work and even then he did not use the SSG

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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by PFM18 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:56 pm

Rebel Instinct wrote:Except for the part where Toriyama says he closely monitored the inclusion of Super Saiyan God Vegeta in the manga and greatly approved of Toyotaro's idea.
Well it's fine and dandy that you seem to think that this somehow disproves what I said, but this isn't even what I was talking about in the first place, and even if it was, Toriyama approving a stupid idea doesn't make it any less of a stupid idea. Toryama is not infallible.

I wasn't referring to Vegeta having the form because that's totally fine. I'm referring to how he made it necessary in the first place. In RoF, Goku and Vegeta won because SSB has far superior endurance to Freeza's Golden Evolution. Freeza's stamina drained faster than theirs. But then Toyotaro thought it would be neat if in the very next arc he had Vegeta use SSB very briefly against Cabba, and lose 90% of his power from it and the associated drain. He literally could only use 1/10 of his power after it was JUST established that the stamina drain wasn't that intense. The stamina drain just justifies using other forms over SSB at any given point. Otherwise, there would never be a point to use SSB ever. Toyotaro tried to get cute and make the SSB drain extremely severe to the point where this writing choice renderered using SSG completely necessary and that's the only reason why Vegeta used it at all and why Goku used it so much.
But, whatever satisfies the constant, all-consuming hateboner you have for the manga/Toyotaro that you love to wag around in just about every thread you comment in (regardless of whether or not the manga is even being discussed).
Sorry that I criticized Toyotaro? The manga is completely relevant to this topic because it is about Vegeta SSG being used and the manga introduced SSG for Vegeta a long time ago.

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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by Burakku » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:20 pm

I think this having SSG would never be a problem I'd that strange Saiyan beyond god stuff would have come.ul

Think about it

Base plus god ki = SSG
SSJ plus god ki = SSB

Instead they used ultra base forms in RoF instead of SSG and Heroes helped out with that strange name.

Later on it became ridiculous and that they haven't used SSG much earlier from time to time in the ankme like in U6 tournament haven't helped out

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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by Son-Kakaroto » Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:21 pm

Because he never did it in the show, but only in the manga. This movie was hinted at being just a direct continuation of the tv show continuity so it created some confusion. Add to the fact it was never stated he could use ssj god in the tv show as well, so many people thought he just "skipped" the form.

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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by Rebel Instinct » Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:05 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Rebel Instinct wrote:Except for the part where Toriyama says he closely monitored the inclusion of Super Saiyan God Vegeta in the manga and greatly approved of Toyotaro's idea.
Well it's fine and dandy that you seem to think that this somehow disproves what I said, but this isn't even what I was talking about in the first place, and even if it was, Toriyama approving a stupid idea doesn't make it any less of a stupid idea. Toryama is not infallible.
Your remark was that Toyotaro only added in the stamina drain with Super Saiyan Blue/the re-introducton of Super Saiyan God to be "cute" and to contradict Toriyama's narrative for Resurrection F. Toriyama directly supervising those additions and being happy with them proves that Toyotaro wasn't acting alone and contradicting his vision. If Toriyama thought that what Toyotaro was doing with Super Saiyan Blue went against his narrative, he would've had him change it like he has with several other parts of Toyotaro's initial drafts.

Whether or not Toriyama is infallible is irrelevant and I never said he was to begin with. Plus, you only decided to attack Toyotaro over this issue, despite the fact that both Toei and Toriyama himself also included these ideas. If you're going to call someone out over this, you have to call ALL of them out since they all did it - not just Toyotaro. Instead you decided to just lay all the blame squarely on Toyotaro's shoulders while conveniently leaving out Toei and Toriyama and their share of the blame.
PFM18 wrote:I wasn't referring to Vegeta having the form because that's totally fine. I'm referring to how he made it necessary in the first place. In RoF, Goku and Vegeta won because SSB has far superior endurance to Freeza's Golden Evolution. Freeza's stamina drained faster than theirs. But then Toyotaro thought it would be neat if in the very next arc he had Vegeta use SSB very briefly against Cabba, and lose 90% of his power from it and the associated drain. He literally could only use 1/10 of his power after it was JUST established that the stamina drain wasn't that intense. The stamina drain just justifies using other forms over SSB at any given point. Otherwise, there would never be a point to use SSB ever. Toyotaro tried to get cute and make the SSB drain extremely severe to the point where this writing choice renderered using SSG completely necessary and that's the only reason why Vegeta used it at all and why Goku used it so much.
The main issue here is that you're assuming that Toyotaro's version of Resurrection F is identical to either the movie or anime's telling of events. Every other arc of the manga has deviated away from the movie/anime tellings in significant ways and yet, for some reason, you're choosing to assume that in this one specific instance, no changes would be made and Toyotaro blatantly contradicted himself. However, we never saw what actually happened in the manga's version of the arc. For all we know, Goku could've stayed in Super Saiyan God while Frieza went all out in his Golden form and only transformed into Blue after discovering Frieza's stamina weakness - thus preserving both Toyotaro's interpretation of Blue and Goku's lesson to Frieza about knowing your limits before running off to seek revenge. Or, Goku could've been Blue the whole time and brazenly contradicting the idea of it having any sort of drain whatsoever. We don't know that though and neither do you.

The point being, we don't know how the manga's version played out, but you're still going ahead and assuming it played out the same way as the movie/anime in order to invent a hypothetical contradiction with the Tournament of Destroyers arc and using that completely hypothetical contradiction to attack Toyotaro's competence as a person - despite not having any evidence either way and every reason to think it could be radically different to either the movie or the anime. The jab you made at Toyotaro is based on nothing established in the manga and totally unfounded. You know good and well that you can't conflate the events of the different tellings of Super to justify things in another, but that's exactly what you're doing.
PFM18 wrote:
But, whatever satisfies the constant, all-consuming hateboner you have for the manga/Toyotaro that you love to wag around in just about every thread you comment in (regardless of whether or not the manga is even being discussed).
Sorry that I criticized Toyotaro? The manga is completely relevant to this topic because it is about Vegeta SSG being used and the manga introduced SSG for Vegeta a long time ago.
It's not even real criticism, there was no substance to it. Your first sentence was totally fine and relevant to the comments you quoted, but then you essentially stapled what amounts to "Also, Toyotaro's writing sucks." on the end of a perfectly valid reply. It added absolutely nothing of value to the conversation. It was just a random unwarranted backhanded remark about Toyotaro. It served no purpose other than hate and it's far from the first time you've done this sort of thing. I don't care about whether or not Toyotaro is criticized because it's totally valid in some respects. It's about injecting random hate into conversations where it isn't warranted and creating imaginary contradictions to attack.

Whatever though. This exact sort of thing is precisely why I quit posting here in the first place. I honestly should've known better than to ever bother. I'm out.
The post-Super fandom has ruined my love for Dragon Ball.
LightBing wrote:Most of what's going on here isn't speculation, it's judgments and conclusions. It's the reason why the manga thread is closed, it's the reason why VegettoEX warned people not to do what they are doing a few pages ago.

It's people riveting on their chance to feel validated in their opinion; to attack the "manga fans" (whatever that means) to prove themselves. My assumption is that everyone here is a Dragon Ball fan, capable of having discussions as equals and not segregate ourselves into little sectors trying to be the "superior faction", ignoring arguments, politeness and even common sense (like having all the information at hand).

Clearly I am mistaken.

I wish we were having fun making up theories or cracking jokes.

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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by PFM18 » Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:28 pm

Rebel Instinct wrote:Your remark was that Toyotaro only added in the stamina drain with Super Saiyan Blue/the re-introducton of Super Saiyan God to be "cute" and to contradict Toriyama's narrative for Resurrection F. Toriyama directly supervising those additions and being happy with them proves that Toyotaro wasn't acting alone and contradicting his vision. If Toriyama thought that what Toyotaro was doing with Super Saiyan Blue went against his narrative, he would've had him change it like he has with several other parts of Toyotaro's initial drafts.
All that would mean is that Toriyama unknowingly contradicted himself. It still blatantly contradicts what we saw in RoF regardless of whether Toriyama realizes it or not.
Whether or not Toriyama is infallible is irrelevant and I never said he was to begin with. Plus, you only decided to attack Toyotaro over this issue, despite the fact that both Toei and Toriyama himself also included these ideas. If you're going to call someone out over this, you have to call ALL of them out since they all did it - not just Toyotaro. Instead you decided to just lay all the blame squarely on Toyotaro's shoulders while conveniently leaving out Toei and Toriyama and their share of the blame.
What are you talking about? Toei never had a scene where somebody literally lost 90% of their power for briefly using SSB, and rendering methods to minimize this issue completely essential. This idea of this extremely severe drain contradicts RoF and Toei never did that, and if Toei never did it, why WOULD I attack them over it? I "attacked"(using this very loosely here, your words not mine) Toyotaro because he's the one who's idea it was to begin with.
The point being, we don't know how the manga's version played out, but you're still going ahead and assuming it played out the same way as the movie/anime in order to invent a hypothetical contradiction with the Tournament of Destroyers arc and using that completely hypothetical contradiction to attack Toyotaro's competence as a person
Toyotaro doesn't have his own version of the events so he has to follow what was already in place does he not? Am I supposed to excuse him because hypothetically if he were to have a version of the event it may not contradict the Tournament of Destroyers? He doesn't. Are we just supposed to read his mind and know what he would have meant to happen during the previous arc?
It's not even real criticism, there was no substance to it.
We are discussing SSG Vegeta and his existence in different continuities. The only continuity before in which it does exist, it exists for the reason that I mentioned and that is relevant to the discussion. It exists in the manga because Toyotaro grossly exaggered the stamina drain issues. That's the only reason why it was there in the manga and not in the anime, and people use this to conclude that Vegeta never achieved SSG in the anime continuity when really he just never had a reason to use it and in the manga he was forced to use it.

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