Broly’s power increase in this movie explained (Spoilers)

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Re: Broly’s power increase in this movie explained (Spoilers)

Post by Neon Z » Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:15 pm

PFM18 wrote:It isn't actually larger than Freeza's power boost.

Freeza went form Namek level, to being as strong as the post-whis training/BoG Base Goku/Vegeta in his Final Form which is MANY order of magnitudes difference. He completely dwarfed anything from Z outside of maybe SSJ Vegetto in his Final Form, after coming from being absolutely nothing to Android 17/18/Imperfect Cell. Obviously, in addition to that he found a transformation of similar caliber to Super Saiyan Blue.
Final Form Freeza couldn't touch base Goku without distracting him in RoF. He definitely wasn't on his level in spite of getting a big power boost.
PFM18 wrote:The dialogue occurs in the movie just not the same verbatim. Beerus is impressed with Goku for being able to retain the power as a SSJ and then an interview shortly after Toriyama explains that he had absorbed the power in the movie if there was ever any doubt. (there wasn't.) We have every reason to believe that this scene played out the same way in the continuity of this Broly movie.
In the movie, it's just said he absorbed part the his power, and in the end we see him going SSJ God for a moment by himself which causes a bigger boost than SSJ, allowing him to stop Beerus' blast. Considering Toriyama's track record, he often just says things on spur of the moment in interviews, and the actual finished work is what he uses as basis for future creations. That's why we end up with SSJ God returning later and shown to be a form stronger than SSJ1, even though that might not have been Toriyama's original intention. It's how the final product turned out and clearly what he went with later on, even in this Broly movie itself.

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Re: Broly’s power increase in this movie explained (Spoilers)

Post by Mister_Popo » Sun Nov 18, 2018 6:14 pm

There is no way Freezas boost during ROF was comparable with Brolys during the new movie.
There are two essential things that make a power boost: base power and multiplier.
Broly has base power well well beyond Freezas during ROF right after he was resurrected (before he started "training"), that's not even comparable.
Moreover emotive reasons have a insane effect on Broly pushing him well beyond Blue Vegeta and Goku.
He starts of below base Vegeta and he ends up pushing Gogeta into Blue, a fusion who is well beyond Jiren. That gap is utterly utterly massive like nothing we've ever seen before.
What Broly bridges during this movie really isn't comparable with Freezas during ROF. Base power and multiplier of Broly are well beyond everything that was established during ROF.
Freezas power-up to Golden Freeza was a mere joke in comparison.
Even post-TOP Golden Freeza, far far more stronger than ROF Golden Freeza, can't handle SSJ Broly. They aren't in the same league whatsoever.

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Re: Broly’s power increase in this movie explained (Spoilers)

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:57 pm

I'm not convinced he is above Jiren.
Cool stuff that I upload here because Youtube will copyright claim it: https://vimeo.com/user60967147

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Re: Broly’s power increase in this movie explained (Spoilers)

Post by PFM18 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:26 am

Neon Z wrote:In the movie, it's just said he absorbed part the his power, and in the end we see him going SSJ God for a moment by himself which causes a bigger boost than SSJ, allowing him to stop Beerus' blast. Considering Toriyama's track record, he often just says things on spur of the moment in interviews, and the actual finished work is what he uses as basis for future creations.
This is just semantics. As far as Toriyama is concerned, Goku had absorbed the power of SSG into SSJ as he showed in the movie and further corroborated in an interview shortly after the interview. The extent to which this is the case is kind of irrelevant.
That's why we end up with SSJ God returning later and shown to be a form stronger than SSJ1, even though that might not have been Toriyama's original intention. It's how the final product turned out and clearly what he went with later on, even in this Broly movie itself
As far as the anime is concerned, as we see this idea of absorption extended across the series, it does not prohibit Super Saiyan God from returning and being stronger than normal SSJ. The fact that SSG appears in the movie is not evidence that Toriyama had changed his mind about the absorption of SSG.
Mister_Popo wrote: Broly has base power well well beyond Freezas during ROF right after he was resurrected (before he started "training"), that's not even comparable.
Nobody disputed this.
He starts of below base Vegeta and he ends up pushing Gogeta into Blue, a fusion who is well beyond Jiren. That gap is utterly utterly massive like nothing we've ever seen before.
That gap is still absolutely nothing compared to going from weaker than Namek SSJ Goku to being stronger than RoF SSB Goku and Vegeta. Base Broly even being remotely close to current Base Vegeta makes his starting point by default hundreds of thousands if not millions of times stronger than Namek Freeza and Freeza's starting point and LSSJ Broly is not hundreds of thousands if not millions of times stronger than RoF Golden Freeza. Not even close IMO.
Even post-TOP Golden Freeza, far far more stronger than ROF Golden Freeza, can't handle SSJ Broly. They aren't in the same league whatsoever.
Nobody disputed this either. ToP Golden Freeza doesn't need to be on the same level for his power increase to be larger than Broly's because:

initial Base Broly>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Namek Freeza
Polyphase Avatron wrote:I'm not convinced he is above Jiren.
Me either. I think it is left kind of ambiguous if he is above Jiren or not by the movie itself.

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Re: Broly’s power increase in this movie explained (Spoilers)

Post by TheOne » Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:48 am

CTAkuma wrote:Knew i was right about his adaptive power ability
What? How in the world could you claim you knew his adaptive abilities when they said it in the very first trailer? Which came out forever ago... None of this is news.
How i predict the tournament will end:

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Re: Broly’s power increase in this movie explained (Spoilers)

Post by CTAkuma » Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:35 am

TheOne wrote:
CTAkuma wrote:Knew i was right about his adaptive power ability
What? How in the world could you claim you knew his adaptive abilities when they said it in the very first trailer? Which came out forever ago... None of this is news.
Some where in denial that it was just him unlocking forms instead of straight up getting stronger

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Re: Broly’s power increase in this movie explained (Spoilers)

Post by Mister_Popo » Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:44 pm

PFM18 wrote:
That gap is still absolutely nothing compared to going from weaker than Namek SSJ Goku to being stronger than RoF SSB Goku and Vegeta. Base Broly even being remotely close to current Base Vegeta makes his starting point by default hundreds of thousands if not millions of times stronger than Namek Freeza and Freeza's starting point and LSSJ Broly is not hundreds of thousands if not millions of times stronger than RoF Golden Freeza. Not even close IMO.

You have said it yourself here. Post-TOP base Vegeta is way way stronger than just “below SSJ Goku level”. They are in a completety different league. First base Broly and SSJ Broly push both Vegeta and Goku into Blue, we are talking into the thousands at least here in multiplier. Base Gogeta is way beyond casual Blue, LSSJ Boly pushes Gogeta into Blue, which lies again into the hundreds or thousands as well. We get a multiplier that is in the hundreds of thousands or millions potentially that is bridged by Broly here. Let’s take it for ease of discussion Freeza gained as much in multiplier as well during ROF, then Broly has still a massive advantage as the base power where Broly started during the movie is way higher, this combined with the massive multipliergives or millions gives a way bigger powergap that is bridged at the end.

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Re: Broly’s power increase in this movie explained (Spoilers)

Post by PFM18 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:59 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:Broly has still a massive advantage as the base power where Broly started during the movie is way higher
That puts him at a disadvantage if he had a much higher starting point. This is a matter of which one had a higher boost during their respective movies/arcs. If Broly started at a much higher point, then a lesser boost is required. Simply put, Freeza started as nothing, and Broly started as something.

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Re: Broly’s power increase in this movie explained (Spoilers)

Post by Mister_Popo » Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:22 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Mister_Popo wrote:Broly has still a massive advantage as the base power where Broly started during the movie is way higher
That puts him at a disadvantage if he had a much higher starting point. This is a matter of which one had a higher boost during their respective movies/arcs. If Broly started at a much higher point, then a lesser boost is required. Simply put, Freeza started as nothing, and Broly started as something.

Howso disadvantage? Powerboost does not equal multiplier.
These are different things.
We are talking netto gains here.

1 (Freeza) x 10 = 10
2 (Broly) x 10 = 20

Does that put 2 (Broly) in a disadvantage? No, he basically gains double because his starting point may be higher, but this influences things and does matter at the end of the equation.
He was very strong from birth. Probably the strongest mortal that was ever born with that power.
The only disadvantage Broly had he didn't have the opportunity to train for it in between for four months. He basically did it in straight combat, which makes matters even more impressive.

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Re: Broly’s power increase in this movie explained (Spoilers)

Post by Neon Z » Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:20 pm

PFM18 wrote:This is just semantics. As far as Toriyama is concerned, Goku had absorbed the power of SSG into SSJ as he showed in the movie and further corroborated in an interview shortly after the interview. The extent to which this is the case is kind of irrelevant.
It is relevant because in that interview Toriyama claimed Goku wouldn't need to use the form again because its power had been fully absorbed into his base. However, the movie only talks about a partial absorption, which leaves space for the form to still be used and still give Goku a power boost.

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Re: Broly’s power increase in this movie explained (Spoilers)

Post by Mister_Popo » Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:39 pm

The problem i have with Broly not being stronger than Jiren ... How on earth is this possible if we know UI Omen in TOP was only just capable with a lot of effort to defeat SSJ2 Kefla? By that logic Blue Vegetto or Gogeto, which are at least let's say a million times stronger than casual Blue, shouldn't be slighty but thousands times at least stronger than Jiren, compared to Broly against whom Gogeta (who isn't the same league as SSJ2 Kefla whatsoever) had to go pretty all out according to the spoilers?

This would only work of UI Omen against SSJ(2) Kefla, which is the only reference point of UI's power and also Jiren's power we have, was eternally toying with and stronger then Kefla.
This remains a possibility, but certain scenes of the battle Goku vs Kefla during TOP wouldn't make much sense anymore in that case.

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Re: Broly’s power increase in this movie explained (Spoilers)

Post by PFM18 » Sat Nov 24, 2018 5:33 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Mister_Popo wrote:Broly has still a massive advantage as the base power where Broly started during the movie is way higher
That puts him at a disadvantage if he had a much higher starting point. This is a matter of which one had a higher boost during their respective movies/arcs. If Broly started at a much higher point, then a lesser boost is required. Simply put, Freeza started as nothing, and Broly started as something.

Howso disadvantage? Powerboost does not equal multiplier.
These are different things.
We are talking netto gains here.

1 (Freeza) x 10 = 10
2 (Broly) x 10 = 20

Does that put 2 (Broly) in a disadvantage? No, he basically gains double because his starting point may be higher, but this influences things and does matter at the end of the equation.
He was very strong from birth. Probably the strongest mortal that was ever born with that power.
The only disadvantage Broly had he didn't have the opportunity to train for it in between for four months. He basically did it in straight combat, which makes matters even more impressive.
If Broly starts at an exponentially higher level, therefore, he has much less ground to cover as he catches up to DBS Goku/Vegeta, and so his increase across the movie/arc is lesser when compared to Freeza, even if he does end up immensely stronger than RoF Golden Freeza.

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Re: Broly’s power increase in this movie explained (Spoilers)

Post by Mister_Popo » Sat Nov 24, 2018 5:48 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Mister_Popo wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
That puts him at a disadvantage if he had a much higher starting point. This is a matter of which one had a higher boost during their respective movies/arcs. If Broly started at a much higher point, then a lesser boost is required. Simply put, Freeza started as nothing, and Broly started as something.

Howso disadvantage? Powerboost does not equal multiplier.
These are different things.
We are talking netto gains here.

1 (Freeza) x 10 = 10
2 (Broly) x 10 = 20

Does that put 2 (Broly) in a disadvantage? No, he basically gains double because his starting point may be higher, but this influences things and does matter at the end of the equation.
He was very strong from birth. Probably the strongest mortal that was ever born with that power.
The only disadvantage Broly had he didn't have the opportunity to train for it in between for four months. He basically did it in straight combat, which makes matters even more impressive.
If Broly starts at an exponentially higher level, therefore, he has much less ground to cover as he catches up to DBS Goku/Vegeta, and so his increase across the movie/arc is lesser when compared to Freeza, even if he does end up immensely stronger than RoF Golden Freeza.

I have to disagree with this i'm afraid.
Blue Gogeta is needed to finish off Broly, who is only a 'subtle milliard times' stronger than base Vegeta, who starts out a lot stronger than Broly.
And i am basically lowballing here for Blue Gogeta.
Moreover the base power that is being used as a starting point is way higher than Freezas starting level in the ROF Arc.
They have improved massively in comparison to the ROF Arc, as the U6, Future Trunks and TOP arcs are in between.
The power INCREASE in such a short time is way higher than everything we have ever witnessed by far.

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Re: Broly’s power increase in this movie explained (Spoilers)

Post by PFM18 » Sat Nov 24, 2018 5:58 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:Moreover the base power that is being used as a starting point is way higher than Freezas starting level in the ROF Arc.
Yeah that's what I said! That works in Freeza's favor because his starting point is so much lower but he still caught up to Base Goku and Vegeta. Freeza went from 120M to say, something in the quadrillions range, and Broly started in the trillions range and ended at something in the quintillions range. Therefore, Freeza had the larger increase. Roughly speaking, I think Freeza got around a billion times stronger and Broly got around a million times stronger, making Freea's increase larger.

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Re: Broly’s power increase in this movie explained (Spoilers)

Post by Mister_Popo » Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:14 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Mister_Popo wrote:Moreover the base power that is being used as a starting point is way higher than Freezas starting level in the ROF Arc.
Yeah that's what I said! That works in Freeza's favor because his starting point is so much lower but he still caught up to Base Goku and Vegeta. Freeza went from 120M to say, something in the quadrillions range, and Broly started in the trillions range and ended at something in the quintillions range. Therefore, Freeza had the larger increase. Roughly speaking, I think Freeza got around a billion times stronger and Broly got around a million times stronger, making Freea's increase larger.

No, it's the other way around, the fact Broly has a much higher starting point combined with the fact he improved for a billion times rather than a million times, makes his improvement way higher.
Even if Freeza did improve for a billion times, the power increase isn't comparable to Brolys, because the level at which the increase started is way lower.

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Re: Broly’s power increase in this movie explained (Spoilers)

Post by SuperNingenGod » Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:42 am

Do you think Broly's Rage mode is pretty much what SSJ4 is, The power of an Ozaro contained in a human sized form? This explains how this form can go toe to toe with SSb which is about equal in power to SSj4 itself, and consequently vastly stronger than either Blue or SSJ4 when stacked with SSJ and SSJ full power.
Imagine if Goku and Vegeta also attains that power. SSB stacked with Rage power would be insane :D

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Re: Broly’s power increase in this movie explained (Spoilers)

Post by Jmass97 » Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:42 pm

SuperNingenGod wrote:Do you think Broly's Rage mode is pretty much what SSJ4 is, The power of an Ozaro contained in a human sized form? This explains how this form can go toe to toe with SSb which is about equal in power to SSj4 itself, and consequently vastly stronger than either Blue or SSJ4 when stacked with SSJ and SSJ full power.
Imagine if Goku and Vegeta also attains that power. SSB stacked with Rage power would be insane :D
I believe so. Or at least it’s clearly a reference. I thought the same thing because other (non-canon of course) sources of material have hinted that blue is a bit stronger than ssj4 and now we have a canon form that’s similar to ssj4 in nature rivaling and being only slightly below blue. So even if we never get a full on ssj4 in the future (which I hope we do) at least we have an identical form just without the body fur. It’s cool to think that it’s a ssj4-like form with lssj power and since Broly constantly rises in power it’s possible that the form could well surpass blue eventually.

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Re: Broly’s power increase in this movie explained (Spoilers)

Post by Faisal Shourov » Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:01 pm

Broly was already that strong, his power didn't come out until he started fighting. Also assuming it's following the original movie, Broly is the most gifted saiyan of all time, by a colossal margin. It's not like Broly getting stronger is an asspull, it's an old meme because it's an old concept.
Toyotarō: … I get the feeling I’ve just heard something amazing (laughs). Lord Beerus and Whis turn up in Dragon Ball Super, and have become an unsurpassable wall for Goku and the gang. What do the two of them mean to you?

Toriyama: Well… First off, right now I don’t have any plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus and Whis.

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Re: Broly’s power increase in this movie explained (Spoilers)

Post by Arugela » Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:09 am

Brolly's power is directly proportional to his fanbases desire to see him in the show. It's at odds to goku's plot armor.
My fan art:
Brolly Gohan Fusion!: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=38826
Uubeerus fusion: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=39923
Dende theme: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=39750

Zenoh might be waygu/kobe Beef!?: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40055
GT theory: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=40001

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Re: Broly’s power increase in this movie explained (Spoilers)

Post by Mister_Popo » Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:50 am

Faisal Shourov wrote:Broly was already that strong, his power didn't come out until he started fighting. Also assuming it's following the original movie, Broly is the most gifted saiyan of all time, by a colossal margin. It's not like Broly getting stronger is an asspull, it's an old meme because it's an old concept.

In the movie he isn't just powering up, like Goku and Vegeta do in their casual forms, he is in effect improving during the battle.
Vegeta even affirms this, and he does go SSJ for the first time because of the emotional trigger.
Paragus did know his son was strong but not that strong.

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