Anyone Miss When the Arcs Used to Connect Swiftly?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Anyone Miss When the Arcs Used to Connect Swiftly?

Post by superfan2024 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:43 pm

Not saying I have a problem with Super's arcs, but I just miss how they used to connect the way they did in the original series. Like the immediate shift from Saiyan Arc to Namek Arc was fantastic.

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Re: Anyone Miss When the Arcs Used to Connect Swiftly?

Post by JulieYBM » Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:54 pm

I like the down time between the arcs. It gives the story more variety.
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Re: Anyone Miss When the Arcs Used to Connect Swiftly?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:10 pm

They did that with the Potaufeu arc and Future Trunks arc, with a cameo of Future Trunks at the end of episode 46 which foreshadows the upcoming arc.
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Re: Anyone Miss When the Arcs Used to Connect Swiftly?

Post by superfan2024 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:22 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:They did that with the Potaufeu arc and Future Trunks arc, with a cameo of Future Trunks at the end of episode 46 which foreshadows the upcoming arc.
Eh, nah, that's completely different. That was just a tease for the new arc. I'm actually talking about a previous arc directly interfering/connecting with the next.

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Re: Anyone Miss When the Arcs Used to Connect Swiftly?

Post by Doctor. » Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:08 pm

I do, and I also miss when the arcs used to matter because they weren't stuck in a predictable time period.

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Re: Anyone Miss When the Arcs Used to Connect Swiftly?

Post by PFM18 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:57 pm

Doctor. wrote:I do, and I also miss when the arcs used to matter because they weren't stuck in a predictable time period.
That doesnt mean they don't matter. The only reason you would even think that is if you have the misguided assumption that there's any possibility of our heroes not being completely fine in the end. Especially in a series where death means absolutely nothing

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Re: Anyone Miss When the Arcs Used to Connect Swiftly?

Post by Doctor. » Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:05 pm

PFM18 wrote:The only reason you would even think that is if you have the misguided assumption that there's any possibility of our heroes not being completely fine in the end. Especially in a series where death means absolutely nothing
"Death is the only thing that matters."

That's where you're wrong. I say the time period is predictable because it is. We know exactly how everyone stands by the time EoZ comes around. We know how everyone's character is going to end up being, what goals and motivations they have in life, what kind of relationships they have with each-other. And, yes, who lives and who dies. Characters like Goten and Trunks can't be utilized properly because we know they'll end up as lazy cunts. There will never be any kind of rift in the group where characters end up opposing each-other for some reason because we know they're still friends at the end. Even something as simple like which characters will have children has already been predetermined, so there's no chance of the series throwing you a curve-ball like Goku having a third kid for instance. This is a marketable time period precisely because it's so sterile and predictable. There's no chance of off-setting the status quo.

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Re: Anyone Miss When the Arcs Used to Connect Swiftly?

Post by PFM18 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:13 pm

Doctor. wrote:That's where you're wrong. I say the time period is predictable because it is. We know exactly how everyone stands by the time EoZ comes around. We know how everyone's character is going to end up being, what goals and motivations they have in life, what kind of relationships they have with each-other. And, yes, who lives and who dies. Characters like Goten and Trunks can't be utilized properly because we know they'll end up as lazy cunts. There will never be any kind of rift in the group where characters end up opposing each-other for some reason because we know they're still friends at the end. Even something as simple like which characters will have children has already been predetermined, so there's no chance of the series throwing you a curve-ball like Goku having a third kid for instance. This is a marketable time period precisely because it's so sterile and predictable. There's no chance of off-setting the status quo.
Well, that's fair. I thought you were talking from the typical stakes point of view. Considering we know for a fact that regardless of whether or not this is set before EoZ or after it, that our heroes are going to end up being fine in the end. The stakes exist because at that particular time, our characters are "at risk"

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Re: Anyone Miss When the Arcs Used to Connect Swiftly?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:16 pm

superfan2024 wrote:
SupremeKai25 wrote:They did that with the Potaufeu arc and Future Trunks arc, with a cameo of Future Trunks at the end of episode 46 which foreshadows the upcoming arc.
Eh, nah, that's completely different. That was just a tease for the new arc. I'm actually talking about a previous arc directly interfering/connecting with the next.
There was some degree of connection between the Champa arc and the Future Trunks arc, especially in the manga, since the catalyst of the Zero Mortals Plan was that video on Godtube that showed Goku clad in Divine Ki fighting Hit in the Tournament. In the manga Zamasu never fought Goku like in the anime.
I do, and I also miss when the arcs used to matter because they weren't stuck in a predictable time period.
And what about the Future Trunks arc? The Future timeline did not enjoy the plot armor granted by the End of Z, because in the end no one knew what would happen to the Future timeline. And indeed the Future timeline ended up being decimated by Zamasu and erased by Zeno.

The ending of the Future Trunks arc is one of the most hated aspects of Super by many in the community, but it certainly cannot be denied that it was a shocking twist.
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Re: Anyone Miss When the Arcs Used to Connect Swiftly?

Post by Doctor. » Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:17 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:And what about the Future Trunks arc? The Future timeline did not enjoy the plot armor granted by the End of Z, because in the end no one knew what would happen to the Future timeline. And indeed the Future timeline ended up being decimated by Zamasu and erased by Zeno.
It's the only arc of Super where you can actually feel like something's at stake, but it doesn't help that the series doesn't give us a reason to ever give a shit about Trunks' timeline.

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Re: Anyone Miss When the Arcs Used to Connect Swiftly?

Post by PFM18 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:30 pm

Doctor. wrote:
SupremeKai25 wrote:And what about the Future Trunks arc? The Future timeline did not enjoy the plot armor granted by the End of Z, because in the end no one knew what would happen to the Future timeline. And indeed the Future timeline ended up being decimated by Zamasu and erased by Zeno.
It's the only arc of Super where you can actually feel like something's at stake, but it doesn't help that the series doesn't give us a reason to ever give a shit about Trunks' timeline.
Or the one that a God of Destruction comes to blow up the Earth or the one that the entire multiverse including our Universe is at stake of course.

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Re: Anyone Miss When the Arcs Used to Connect Swiftly?

Post by Doctor. » Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:33 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
SupremeKai25 wrote:And what about the Future Trunks arc? The Future timeline did not enjoy the plot armor granted by the End of Z, because in the end no one knew what would happen to the Future timeline. And indeed the Future timeline ended up being decimated by Zamasu and erased by Zeno.
It's the only arc of Super where you can actually feel like something's at stake, but it doesn't help that the series doesn't give us a reason to ever give a shit about Trunks' timeline.
Or the one that a God of Destruction comes to blow up the Earth or the one that the entire multiverse including our Universe is at stake of course.
That's just fake tension. We knew that Earth would be fine. Kid Boo destroying the Earth was impactful, because even if you knew they'd just bring it back, there was still a sliver of doubt; not here, it was confirmed nothing bad would happen to Earth. The ToP would have had more stakes if they focused more on the other universes.

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Re: Anyone Miss When the Arcs Used to Connect Swiftly?

Post by PFM18 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:40 pm

Doctor. wrote:That's just fake tension. We knew that Earth would be fine.
We always know Earth will be fine. Going by that, ALL tension is fake tension. We always know that the heroes will be fine when all of the dust settles. There's absolutely no way Toriyama will end the story with our heroes dead, or even a large chunk of them being dead.

Chaotzu died, but everybody sure as hell knew he would be fine because he died before and he was ended up ok.
Kururin died before, but we knew he would be fine because this had already happened and he was fine last time.
Goku died again, but we knew he would be alive again because well, that's how things ALWAYS work. It

The only characters in the original series that didn't die were Baba, Kaioshin and Satan. We have several characters literally dying multiple times and being completely fine. If you need to have EoZ out of vision for you to feel real tension, then that's your own damn fault because there sure as hell was never any doubt about the fate of our characters in the end. We have absolutely no reason to think that the Earth won't be "fine" at the end of any given story, so this isn't somehow an exception.

Tension is created in an In-Universe fashion, knowing our characters are at stake creates tension, even if out-of-Universe we ultimately know their fate is going to be peachy.

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Re: Anyone Miss When the Arcs Used to Connect Swiftly?

Post by Doctor. » Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:47 pm

PFM18 wrote:We always know Earth will be fine. Going by that, ALL tension is fake tension. We always know that the heroes will be fine when all of the dust settles. There's absolutely no way Toriyama will end the story with our heroes dead, or even a large chunk of them.
No, we don't know. That's the point: we think we know, but the underlying doubt is what makes things tense. We thought Namek would be fine, yet it blew up and the Namekians had to migrate to an entirely different planet. We thought the Namekians themselves would be fine, yet one village has yet to be resurrected, same with a lot of humans on Earth. We thought #16 would be fine, yet he's dead. We thought Goku would be fine, yet if the series had ended at the Cell arc, he wouldn't have been revived. We can expect characters to be revived once the story arc ends, but it's not confirmed. EoZ existing confirms that nobody will die permanently or suffer through any injury.
PFM18 wrote:Chaotzu died, but everybody sure as hell knew he would be fine because he died before and he was ended up ok.
Kururin died before, but we knew he would be fine because this had already happened and he was fine last time.
Yet you still felt something for their death because the story made you believe there was a chance they wouldn't be brought back this time. Namely, they had already been wished back once and the Namekian balls were gone. If the Namek and Saiyan arcs were prequels to the Cell arc, then you wouldn't care because you'd know for a fact that sort of set-up was pointless.
PFM18 wrote:If you need to have EoZ out of vision for you to feel real tension, then that's your own damn fault because there sure as hell was never any doubt about the fate of our characters in the end.
You say that, yet I'm sure as hell you'd praise the series (as you should) if it had the balls to kill off a main character permanently. This is a poor excuse, and the wrong way to read a story.

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Re: Anyone Miss When the Arcs Used to Connect Swiftly?

Post by supersaiyanZero » Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:59 pm

Doctor. wrote:
PFM18 wrote:The only reason you would even think that is if you have the misguided assumption that there's any possibility of our heroes not being completely fine in the end. Especially in a series where death means absolutely nothing
"Death is the only thing that matters."

That's where you're wrong. I say the time period is predictable because it is. We know exactly how everyone stands by the time EoZ comes around. We know how everyone's character is going to end up being, what goals and motivations they have in life, what kind of relationships they have with each-other. And, yes, who lives and who dies. Characters like Goten and Trunks can't be utilized properly because we know they'll end up as lazy cunts. There will never be any kind of rift in the group where characters end up opposing each-other for some reason because we know they're still friends at the end. Even something as simple like which characters will have children has already been predetermined, so there's no chance of the series throwing you a curve-ball like Goku having a third kid for instance. This is a marketable time period precisely because it's so sterile and predictable. There's no chance of off-setting the status quo.
This is the biggest cop out I consistently read among these forums. Just because it is a "midquel" does not mean you can't write compelling story arcs that contain elements of suspense, drama, and unpredictability. We are littered with examples of prequels and such that have done so across every medium in storytelling. (Fate zero is a great example) The fact that Super has not done so is not due to its time period. Its just horribly written with poorly constructed characters unfortunately.

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Re: Anyone Miss When the Arcs Used to Connect Swiftly?

Post by PFM18 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:01 pm

Doctor. wrote:We thought Namek would be fine, yet it blew up and the Namekians had to migrate to an entirely different planet.
And then it was wished back and it was fine.
We thought the Namekians themselves would be fine, yet one village has yet to be resurrected, same with a lot of humans on Earth.
Yes, one village killled by Vegeta, and one city killed by Nappa were never resurrected. Neither of which are given any reason for us to give a shit about, so it's a moot point. No real permanent damage.
We thought #16 would be fine, yet he's dead.
He was a robot designed to kill Goku. We had little reason to think he would survive.
We thought Goku would be fine, yet if the series had ended at the Cell arc, he wouldn't have been revived.
The series didn't end after the Cell arc, and it was never going to end after the Cell arc so this is a moot point. Goku was going to be fine and we all knew that, we were right.
We can expect characters to be revived once the story arc ends, but it's not confirmed.
We are never given any reason to think they won't be fine when the story ends. Let me know of an example of that ever happening. The only time it has ever happened where a character's fate was actually death was Piccolo in GT(; a story that Toriyama didn't wite.(Which you're right it deserves praise it is arguably the best element of GT.) Until further notice, we have absolutely no reason to believe Toriyama would ever write a story in which one of our heroes ultimately end up dead.

Like I said, tension should always be viewed in an In-Universe way. If you bring Out-of-Universe things into the equation like knowing the ending, or knowing common storytelling conventions not resulting in our heroes actually being dead, then there's literally NEVER any real tension.
supersaiyanZero wrote: Its just horribly written with poorly constructed characters unfortunately.
except for arguably the greatest villain in the franchise and one of those beloved characters in the franchise in Beerus, of course. If you ever thought that this story was masterfully written in a series where the creator completely forgets characters altogether and writes completely on the fly, well, then I've got some bad news....

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Re: Anyone Miss When the Arcs Used to Connect Swiftly?

Post by Doctor. » Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:12 pm

PFM18 wrote:And then it was wished back and it was fine.
No, it wasn't wished back. I said the Namekians had to migrate to an entirely different planet.
He was a robot designed to kill Goku. We had little reason to think he would survive.
He was friendly, helped our characters numerous times throughout the arc and triggered Gohan's transformation.
Goku was going to be fine and we all knew that, we were right.
You were proven right 7 years afterwards in-universe, and 70% into the new arc. That doesn't really count as Toriyama held on to the plot thread long enough for the audience to believe Goku would remain dead.
We are never given any reason to think they won't be fine when the story ends.
We are because the story is written in a way where you're forced to doubt yourself as to whether the characters will be fine or not. If it wasn't, then Shenlong wouldn't be destroyed, Kami wouldn't have died and Porunga wouldn't have died because why would any of that matter when we already """know""" the characters are going to be fine? This is revisionism at its finest. You say you know the characters are going to be fine because you have 30 years of hindsight on your side. Had you followed WSJ when Kuririn died for the first time and Shenlong was blown up, then I highly doubt you would have stated with such confidence that he would be brought back at the end of the story. Now, with Super, you know for a fact that anyone we saw at EoZ is going to be revived were they to die. It's an entirely different situation and people are objectively right in being more invested in the former.

And it's also perfectly legitimate to believe the series lacks any tension because characters get revived constantly and there's little chance one would be killed off permanently since this is a light-hearted series for little boys; this has been a complaint thrown at it for decades and you're not really "getting" anyone with this argument. I'm saying the original series had more tension than Super, which has literally zero, not that it was a perfect thriller.

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Re: Anyone Miss When the Arcs Used to Connect Swiftly?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:26 pm

GT also had that problem, No? Didn't the Movie A Hero's Legacy (set many decades after the death of Baby) first air in Japan before the Super 17 arc even started? So everyone already knew that Super 17 and Omega Shenron would eventually lose.
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Re: Anyone Miss When the Arcs Used to Connect Swiftly?

Post by prince212 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:22 pm

Yes , a better connection at least ... , u6 arc with f.t arc and t.o.p arc with this new arc ... feels like doesn’t matter what’s first .. minimal details ... it’s not like the author is driving the car neither the car drives the author .
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: Anyone Miss When the Arcs Used to Connect Swiftly?

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:10 pm

JulieYBM wrote:I like the down time between the arcs. It gives the story more variety.
I don't, because the arc just end up coming out of no where, with villains just randomly showing up or that Goku just gets bored and wants to fight. As opposed to the older arcs with a story or characterization reason to do the next thing. All of Super's arcs feel isolated to themselves a lot lie the movies and the downtime with characters living too normal of now 'modern' lives comes off as filler.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

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