Which Would Be The Better Ultimate Saiyan Form? SSJ4 or PSSJB?

[Kaiosama]

SSBE is also pretty much equally worthless of a transformation as SSJ Grade 2. It's not only inspired by SSJ Grade 2, but also performs like it. Worthless compared to Goku's path to breaking his limits with UI. It's not even used in the movie, so clearly nobody cares about such a useless transformation.

The Ultimate Saiyan form is clearly MUI, since that's the peak of fighting prowess a warrior of any race will ever be able to reach.

[Kokonoe]

Lore wise, Super Saiyan 4 has this one for me being that I consider it a great concept to master the original strength of a Saiyan in their primal state. It felt like the perfect way to give them a final form.

Super Saiyan God, and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan are based on the concept of there being a separate Ki just for Gods that was not introduced all this time, despite us seeing Gods in the manga all this time. Not only this, but it seems you can easily contend with God Ki users, but it tried to convey the story as if, if you had God Ki, you would be stronger but later on it was shown to not be the case and thus it undermines the entire concept of the God Ki. It doesn't feel like a clear advantage, it doesn't feel written well or meshed together well. So lore wise, I'm not a fan.

Aesthetics wise, color scheming aside (wish it was more primary colors and less subdued), it's also SS4 for me as well. It's an amalgamation of the Oozaru form and the humanoid Saiyan form and is pretty stylized with the hair. I love how it makes their hair black, giving them a natural look to really convey the purpose behind this transformation, aka mastering their roots. Visually it makes them look pretty intimidating.

God / Blue on the other hand takes base look for God, and base Super Saiyan for Blue, and simply recolors their hair. I also find the colors utilized to be a bit tacky, and if I were to be blunt, it does feel fanfiction levels.

I guess it's safe to say I do not enjoy God or Blue in concept and aesthetics.

[Hulk10]

SSBE is also pretty much equally worthless of a transformation as SSJ Grade 2. It's not only inspired by SSJ Grade 2, but also performs like it. Worthless compared to Goku's path to breaking his limits with UI. It's not even used in the movie, so clearly nobody cares about such a useless transformation.

The Ultimate Saiyan form is clearly MUI, since that's the peak of fighting prowess a warrior of any race will ever be able to reach.

Except its not a Saiyan transformation. It can be achieved by any species with the proper training.

Lore wise, Super Saiyan 4 has this one for me being that I consider it a great concept to master the original strength of a Saiyan in their primal state. It felt like the perfect way to give them a final form.

Super Saiyan God, and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan are based on the concept of there being a separate Ki just for Gods that was not introduced all this time, despite us seeing Gods in the manga all this time. Not only this, but it seems you can easily contend with God Ki users, but it tried to convey the story as if, if you had God Ki, you would be stronger but later on it was shown to not be the case and thus it undermines the entire concept of the God Ki. It doesn't feel like a clear advantage, it doesn't feel written well or meshed together well. So lore wise, I'm not a fan.

Aesthetics wise, color scheming aside (wish it was more primary colors and less subdued), it's also SS4 for me as well. It's an amalgamation of the Oozaru form and the humanoid Saiyan form and is pretty stylized with the hair. I love how it makes their hair black, giving them a natural look to really convey the purpose behind this transformation, aka mastering their roots. Visually it makes them look pretty intimidating.

God / Blue on the other hand takes base look for God, and base Super Saiyan for Blue, and simply recolors their hair. I also find the colors utilized to be a bit tacky, and if I were to be blunt, it does feel fanfiction levels.

I guess it's safe to say I do not enjoy God or Blue in concept and aesthetics.

I agree, plus the SS4 is more complex and more interesting. Its a union of the baseline Saiyan form, the Oozaru and the Super Saiyan all brought out to their full potential.

[Rakurai]

It was stated that Ssj4 Goku was around base Vegito's power from Z they even showed a picture of base Vegito as well plus Omega was stated to be able to destroy a Universe overtime where else Ssg Goku and Beerus almost destroyed everything with a few punches.

This is what happens when incomplete translations get passed around and context of passage gets lost. People start assuming stupid ideas like base Z Vegetto > SSJ4 Goku, when in GT itself Baby Vegeta stated himself that he had the greatest Saiyan power ever, and Goku confirmed he never felt a ki as incredible as his.

Gonna copy & paste a previous post of mine:

"After Goku and Vegeta use a merging item to merge, they become Vegetto! They can furthermore become a Super Saiyan, making them Super Vegito! After the two strongest people merge, they become the greatest master in the universe! Perhaps even stronger than Super Saiyan 4!"

Nowhere in the passage does it state that this was the same Vegetto who fought Buuhan, who was the result of a desperate last resort by Goku/Vegeta. The previous passages explicitly mention Z events, from teleporting Cell all the way up to fighting Buu, yet the Vegetto passage does no such thing. Furthermore, it is informative (meaning it just talks about Vegetto) as opposed to recollective (where it's referring to this particular Vegetto). This is simply a passage describing Vegetto the Potara fusion in general.

http://comic.dragonballcn.com/list/0.Dr ... tory07.jpg

Vegetto's picture is simply a visual. It is related to the passage by the fact that it's supposed to be, well, Vegetto himself. Using visuals alone is seriously ignoring the context laid out by the passage. More evidence to substantiate my claim:

(From the same guide)
http://comic.dragonballcn.com/list/0.Dr ... tory06.jpg

On this SSJ Vegetto's box, it explicitly states in the first line that Goku merged with Vegeta in order to take down Buu. This is a clear reference to Buu arc Vegetto. And if it was Buu arc Vegetto they were talking about in the SSJ Vegetto-SSJ4 comparison passage, I assume they would've done the exact same which they did not.

Pictures are also NOT representative of the passages next to it. Case in point:

Passage next to SSJ3 Goku vs kid Buu: "In the Other World, Goku once again trained to reach a form beyond Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 3! In order to take down Buu, he transformed into this while still dead! The disadvantage to this form is that the form consumes energy fast and thus cannot last long."

The passage references Fat Buu, yet the picture is that of kid Buu. Pictures mean nothing without context.

Finally, there is nothing that contradicts Baby Vegeta's statement:

https://i.imgur.com/rF441Qz.png

https://i.imgur.com/hDVZVUd.png

Majuub being equal to Super Buu is your headcanon. Pure and simple headcanon.

We have GT Perfect File statements of GT Gohan not neglecting his training, which logically means his power has remained the same or perhaps even stronger since the end of Buu arc. Couple with his ability to go SSJ (since Z/GT never treated Ultimate as a transformation), GT Gohan is at least Ultimate + SSJ level. Rildo owning GT base Gohan makes sense as well since Rildo is already more powerful than Buu at not even 50% of his full power.

Basically, Buu arc Vegetto is obsolete by the point of GT.

Also, if we're going by destructive power logic, the Broly film should have destroyed the universe multiple times over, let alone the Earth itself.

Granted Broly & Gogeta did destroy their way into another dimension but that's nothing new by DB standards. Gotenks & Super Buu literally did this by just screaming.

The universe feat, and destructive feats in general, is a fallacious and dishonest way to powerscale characters.

[Hulk10]

It was stated that Ssj4 Goku was around base Vegito's power from Z they even showed a picture of base Vegito as well plus Omega was stated to be able to destroy a Universe overtime where else Ssg Goku and Beerus almost destroyed everything with a few punches.

This is what happens when incomplete translations get passed around and context of passage gets lost. People start assuming stupid ideas like base Z Vegetto > SSJ4 Goku, when in GT itself Baby Vegeta stated himself that he had the greatest Saiyan power ever, and Goku confirmed he never felt a ki as incredible as his.

Gonna copy & paste a previous post of mine:

"After Goku and Vegeta use a merging item to merge, they become Vegetto! They can furthermore become a Super Saiyan, making them Super Vegito! After the two strongest people merge, they become the greatest master in the universe! Perhaps even stronger than Super Saiyan 4!"

Nowhere in the passage does it state that this was the same Vegetto who fought Buuhan, who was the result of a desperate last resort by Goku/Vegeta. The previous passages explicitly mention Z events, from teleporting Cell all the way up to fighting Buu, yet the Vegetto passage does no such thing. Furthermore, it is informative (meaning it just talks about Vegetto) as opposed to recollective (where it's referring to this particular Vegetto). This is simply a passage describing Vegetto the Potara fusion in general.

http://comic.dragonballcn.com/list/0.Dr ... tory07.jpg

Vegetto's picture is simply a visual. It is related to the passage by the fact that it's supposed to be, well, Vegetto himself. Using visuals alone is seriously ignoring the context laid out by the passage. More evidence to substantiate my claim:

(From the same guide)
http://comic.dragonballcn.com/list/0.Dr ... tory06.jpg

On this SSJ Vegetto's box, it explicitly states in the first line that Goku merged with Vegeta in order to take down Buu. This is a clear reference to Buu arc Vegetto. And if it was Buu arc Vegetto they were talking about in the SSJ Vegetto-SSJ4 comparison passage, I assume they would've done the exact same which they did not.

Pictures are also NOT representative of the passages next to it. Case in point:

Passage next to SSJ3 Goku vs kid Buu: "In the Other World, Goku once again trained to reach a form beyond Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 3! In order to take down Buu, he transformed into this while still dead! The disadvantage to this form is that the form consumes energy fast and thus cannot last long."

The passage references Fat Buu, yet the picture is that of kid Buu. Pictures mean nothing without context.

Finally, there is nothing that contradicts Baby Vegeta's statement:

https://i.imgur.com/rF441Qz.png

https://i.imgur.com/hDVZVUd.png

Majuub being equal to Super Buu is your headcanon. Pure and simple headcanon.

We have GT Perfect File statements of GT Gohan not neglecting his training, which logically means his power has remained the same or perhaps even stronger since the end of Buu arc. Couple with his ability to go SSJ (since Z/GT never treated Ultimate as a transformation), GT Gohan is at least Ultimate + SSJ level. Rildo owning GT base Gohan makes sense as well since Rildo is already more powerful than Buu at not even 50% of his full power.

Basically, Buu arc Vegetto is obsolete by the point of GT.

Also, if we're going by destructive power logic, the Broly film should have destroyed the universe multiple times over, let alone the Earth itself.

Granted Broly & Gogeta did destroy their way into another dimension but that's nothing new by DB standards. Gotenks & Super Buu literally did this by just screaming.

The universe feat, and destructive feats in general, is a fallacious and dishonest way to powerscale characters.

Never heard anyone say that destructive power logic is a fallacious and dishonest way to powerscale characters.

[Rakurai]

Never heard anyone say that destructive power logic is a fallacious and dishonest way to powerscale characters.

My statement is in context to DB powerscaling. Which is true so to speak.

[Hulk10]

Never heard anyone say that destructive power logic is a fallacious and dishonest way to powerscale characters.

My statement is in context to DB powerscaling. Which is true so to speak.

Yeah I know.

[DragonBallFan]

No, in the manga Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 do not increase in muscle mass, I haven't seen the slightest indication what so ever that that's the case. Maybe in the frieza arc it was, but not anymore.

The way the forms are achieved are different, yes, but they literally pulled a cheap one, as far as I know SSBE is not in the new movie, and I doubt it'll appear again.

The whole point of Grade 2 was to "break the super saiyan wall", to "go above super saiyan". SSBE is "breaking ones limits", hence "breaking the wall".

If you ask me they are VERY similar, look at the flash backs in the future trunks arc when Vegeta goes Super Saiyan Grade 2 and compare it to SSBE, you can see it was HEAVILY inspired.

I know it's not "SSB Grade 2", but in terms of looks, it basically is a rip off.

When Goku goes SSJ for the first time, and Gohan goes SSJ2 for the first time, both increase in muscle mass. But again, like I said, it is to a much lesser extent to Grade 2.

SSBE not being in the movie has absolutely nothing to do with anything.

Grade 2 is simply using ki to expand your muscle mass and gain power from it. (But not necessarily to the extent of losing speed) SSBE

Visually the ONLY similarity is that they both have increased muscle mass. Again, SSBE's most defining feature is the pupils, and the second most defining feature is that the hair/aura changes color. Neither of those are true of Grade 2. They are simply completely different transformations.

If you strip SSBE down to black and white, as well as Grade 2, they would look very similar, I don't understand why you can't see this.

It's a color swap essentially with the exception of the pupils.

And when I said SSBE won't be in the movie I was trying to say that it probably won't return because it's a crappy designed concept. Nothing from Akira's mind at all. Not that that's what makes it bad, it's just Akira would rarely think of a transformation that's an eyesore.

[Ssb_goku20]

It was stated that Ssj4 Goku was around base Vegito's power from Z they even showed a picture of base Vegito as well plus Omega was stated to be able to destroy a Universe overtime where else Ssg Goku and Beerus almost destroyed everything with a few punches.

This is what happens when incomplete translations get passed around and context of passage gets lost. People start assuming stupid ideas like base Z Vegetto > SSJ4 Goku, when in GT itself Baby Vegeta stated himself that he had the greatest Saiyan power ever, and Goku confirmed he never felt a ki as incredible as his.

Gonna copy & paste a previous post of mine:

"After Goku and Vegeta use a merging item to merge, they become Vegetto! They can furthermore become a Super Saiyan, making them Super Vegito! After the two strongest people merge, they become the greatest master in the universe! Perhaps even stronger than Super Saiyan 4!"

Nowhere in the passage does it state that this was the same Vegetto who fought Buuhan, who was the result of a desperate last resort by Goku/Vegeta. The previous passages explicitly mention Z events, from teleporting Cell all the way up to fighting Buu, yet the Vegetto passage does no such thing. Furthermore, it is informative (meaning it just talks about Vegetto) as opposed to recollective (where it's referring to this particular Vegetto). This is simply a passage describing Vegetto the Potara fusion in general.

http://comic.dragonballcn.com/list/0.Dr ... tory07.jpg

Vegetto's picture is simply a visual. It is related to the passage by the fact that it's supposed to be, well, Vegetto himself. Using visuals alone is seriously ignoring the context laid out by the passage. More evidence to substantiate my claim:

(From the same guide)
http://comic.dragonballcn.com/list/0.Dr ... tory06.jpg

On this SSJ Vegetto's box, it explicitly states in the first line that Goku merged with Vegeta in order to take down Buu. This is a clear reference to Buu arc Vegetto. And if it was Buu arc Vegetto they were talking about in the SSJ Vegetto-SSJ4 comparison passage, I assume they would've done the exact same which they did not.

Pictures are also NOT representative of the passages next to it. Case in point:

Passage next to SSJ3 Goku vs kid Buu: "In the Other World, Goku once again trained to reach a form beyond Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 3! In order to take down Buu, he transformed into this while still dead! The disadvantage to this form is that the form consumes energy fast and thus cannot last long."

The passage references Fat Buu, yet the picture is that of kid Buu. Pictures mean nothing without context.

Finally, there is nothing that contradicts Baby Vegeta's statement:

https://i.imgur.com/rF441Qz.png

https://i.imgur.com/hDVZVUd.png

Majuub being equal to Super Buu is your headcanon. Pure and simple headcanon.

We have GT Perfect File statements of GT Gohan not neglecting his training, which logically means his power has remained the same or perhaps even stronger since the end of Buu arc. Couple with his ability to go SSJ (since Z/GT never treated Ultimate as a transformation), GT Gohan is at least Ultimate + SSJ level. Rildo owning GT base Gohan makes sense as well since Rildo is already more powerful than Buu at not even 50% of his full power.

Basically, Buu arc Vegetto is obsolete by the point of GT.

Also, if we're going by destructive power logic, the Broly film should have destroyed the universe multiple times over, let alone the Earth itself.

Granted Broly & Gogeta did destroy their way into another dimension but that's nothing new by DB standards. Gotenks & Super Buu literally did this by just screaming.

The universe feat, and destructive feats in general, is a fallacious and dishonest way to powerscale characters.

I'm not going to deny official material for my own bias opinion like some people but if you want to do so that's on you leave me out of it

[gantarat]

Dokkan Battke say SSJ4 is Ultimate Saiyan Form so i go SSJ4.

[Rakurai]

I'm not going to deny official material for my own bias opinion like some people but if you want to do so that's on you leave me out of it

Lol that should be my line. Anybody with half a brain can realize that your initial claims are grounded on erroneous assumptions and passages taken out of context. And that your reasoning is fallacious.

Please double-check your facts next time before going around spouting fandom misinformation like a sheep.

[Ssb_goku20]

I'm not going to deny official material for my own bias opinion like some people but if you want to do so that's on you leave me out of it

Lol that should be my line. Anybody with half a brain can realize that your initial claims are grounded on erroneous assumptions and passages taken out of context. And that your reasoning is fallacious.

Please double-check your facts next time before going around spouting fandom misinformation like a sheep.

Funny you think that of yourself

[Hulk10]

Dokkan Battke say SSJ4 is Ultimate Saiyan Form so i go SSJ4.

I agree.

[Logania]

I mean, they both could be the ultimate form for a Saiyan but for different reasons.

Super Saiyan Blue has the power of a Super Saiyan but also is infused with God Ki, a realm of power beyond that of all mortals. Super Saiyan 4 can potentially be more powerful than any Saiyan form on their own, but at the same time it's not a form that's made through just Saiyan power, it's half and half.

Super Saiyan 4 is the highest form on the Saiyan ladder and is the most powerful form that is made only from Saiyan biology without any outside influence. That being said it's still just a form that is on the mortal plane, and just on that metric it can possibly be lower than Super Saiyan Blue.

I think Super Saiyan Blue is the most powerful Super Saiyan form, but Super Saiyan 4 is the Ultimate Super Saiyan form.

[Hulk10]

I mean, they both could be the ultimate form for a Saiyan but for different reasons.

Super Saiyan Blue has the power of a Super Saiyan but also is infused with God Ki, a realm of power beyond that of all mortals. Super Saiyan 4 can potentially be more powerful than any Saiyan form on their own, but at the same time it's not a form that's made through just Saiyan power, it's half and half.

Super Saiyan 4 is the highest form on the Saiyan ladder and is the most powerful form that is made only from Saiyan biology without any outside influence. That being said it's still just a form that is on the mortal plane, and just on that metric it can possibly be lower than Super Saiyan Blue.

I think Super Saiyan Blue is the most powerful Super Saiyan form, but Super Saiyan 4 is the Ultimate Super Saiyan form.

The only thing I disagree with you on is the Super Saiyan Blue being the most powerful, other than that I agree.

[God Gogeta]

Well let them evolve further than PSSJB, MAY BE SSB3 or a Full powered form like Broly. SSJ4 became backdated and weaker from the introduction of SSJG.

[Hulk10]

I feel as though if anything SSJ4 has been underestimated.

[mahakaishin1991]

Four, to me personally, 3, 4 and God are three different branches of evolution.

[JohnnyCashKami]

Super Saiyan 4 as it's the only Super Saiyan form that went back to the roots and retained the tail whereas Super Saiyan Blue they just changed his hair color.

[Saturnine]

SSBE is also pretty much equally worthless of a transformation as SSJ Grade 2. It's not only inspired by SSJ Grade 2, but also performs like it. Worthless compared to Goku's path to breaking his limits with UI. It's not even used in the movie, so clearly nobody cares about such a useless transformation.

The Ultimate Saiyan form is clearly MUI, since that's the peak of fighting prowess a warrior of any race will ever be able to reach.

Saying it's useless is pretty dumb, seeing as how it gives at least a 20x boost to power - a magnitude incomparable to whatever Grade 2 gives. It also doesn't wear out the body like Kaioken does, meaning that in everyday situations Goku is actually superior to Vegeta.