Which Would Be The Better Ultimate Saiyan Form? SSJ4 or PSSJB?

[PFM18]

The hair in some shots might look like normal SSJB, but that's the animation and art problems. The hair is bigger and sharper.

Let me ask you this: What's the difference between SSJ and SSJ2?

The primary differences are a slight change in the hairstyle, a slight increase in muscle tone and the addition of bio electricity in the aura.

I wanted them to answer that

I really didn't understand your response to me, because you seemed to be making an argument that it is considerably different but that's what I've been saying this whole time. As in, it appears we were in agreement on this matter but you were seemingly trying to make a counterpoint.

[DragonBallFan]

The primary differences are a slight change in the hairstyle, a slight increase in muscle tone and the addition of bio electricity in the aura.

I wanted them to answer that

I really didn't understand your response to me, because you seemed to be making an argument that it is considerably different but that's what I've been saying this whole time. As in, it appears we were in agreement on this matter but you were seemingly trying to make a counterpoint.

I was asking you what was the difference between SSJ and SSJ2 because I wanted to see if you could actually give me an explanation on the differences, a lot of people say that there's only added lighting, a lot of people say only Youth Gohan's hair changed and Goku only has 3 bangs, but all of this is not true. In the manga you can clearly see a difference, except for wide range shots which is reasonable. You stated the hair on Evolution didn't change, when it clearly does, so I wanted to see if you were one of the people who thinks SSJ and SSJ2 are basically the same.

[PFM18]

I wanted them to answer that

I really didn't understand your response to me, because you seemed to be making an argument that it is considerably different but that's what I've been saying this whole time. As in, it appears we were in agreement on this matter but you were seemingly trying to make a counterpoint.

I was asking you what was the difference between SSJ and SSJ2 because I wanted to see if you could actually give me an explanation on the differences, a lot of people say that there's only added lighting, a lot of people say only Youth Gohan's hair changed and Goku only has 3 bangs, but all of this is not true. In the manga you can clearly see a difference, except for wide range shots which is reasonable. You stated the hair on Evolution didn't change, when it clearly does, so I wanted to see if you were one of the people who thinks SSJ and SSJ2 are basically the same.

I didnt say that the hair on Evolution doesn't change. You should read the relevant information before responding, that's why your response didnt make sense.

I said the hair on Evolution didnt change in the design sheets another poster was referencing. That is evidence that the concept in the design sheets wasn't actually used because what we see in the anime itself is that their hair DID change. Therefore, if this prototype design sheet intended to emulate Grade 2, it doesnt matter because the final design is different from that. It isn't just Ascended Super Saiyan 2.0 is my point.

[emperior]

Broly’s rage transformation is basically the canonical rationalisation of Super Saiyan 4, and it looks much better without the red fur. We still have no idea what the hell that green-haired transformation is though, considering Kale has access to it too, but it’s possible that it’s a mix between the rage form and Super Saiyan, which is why it’s still uncontrolled, but then Broly too couldn’t control himself when he turned into a normal Super Saiyan.

[Hulk10]

Broly’s rage transformation is basically the canonical rationalisation of Super Saiyan 4, and it looks much better without the red fur. We still have no idea what the hell that green-haired transformation is though, considering Kale has access to it too, but it’s possible that it’s a mix between the rage form and Super Saiyan, which is why it’s still uncontrolled, but then Broly too couldn’t control himself when he turned into a normal Super Saiyan.

I dunno about the Ikari being the canonical rationalization of Super Saiyan 4 and I definitely don't agree with the idea that it looks better without red fur. If it was, then Broly would surely be more powerful in that form than in his Super Saiyan form, but he's not, and also the Ikari form is not a Super Saiyan transformation. SSJ4 is a Super Saiyan transformation, its not part of the main one but its still a Super Saiyan transformation. And I'm pretty sure the the green haired transformation is called Super Saiyan Broly Full Power.

[Saturnine]

I dunno about the Ikari being the canonical rationalization of Super Saiyan 4 and I definitely don't agree with the idea that it looks better without red fur.

I agree that it looks better without the fur, because red is a random color. They should have made the fur either brown or golden in the first place. Brown would have felt too weak, and been kinda like this very Ikari form here - regular Oozaru in a human body. Golden fur would have been a logical extension of the Golden Ozaru form that Toei created specifically as a plot device to justify SSj4 in the first place. The fur being red makes it totally random and only highlights Toei's penchant for using cheap-looking colors in their designs. Well, even if the red fur itself doesn't look "cheap", it certainly is a weird choice of color IMO.

If it was, then Broly would surely be more powerful in that form than in his Super Saiyan form,

Just because the power doesn't agree, doesn't mean the concept isn't valid. Keep in mind that we're talking regular Ozaru here, not Golden Ozaru, which was a GT-only creation. If anything, this portrayal is more logical than GT's, as the Ozaru is something any Saiyan can transform into, and not even condensing it into a human body should make the Saiyan stronger than the legendary transformation of SSj. Don't let the fact that its inspiration was called SSj4 blind you to the obvious analogies between these two forms.

but he's not, and also the Ikari form is not a Super Saiyan transformation. SSJ4 is a Super Saiyan transformation, its not part of the main one but its still a Super Saiyan transformation.

And that's the thing - SSj4 was written as being beyond all previous SSj transformations, but its appearance never justified that. Just because SSj4 was written as a "SSj transformation" as you put it, doesn't mean Ikari, whose mechanics appear to be directly inspired by SSj4 - needs to be one too. In fact, like I said above, it's more logical to make a common Saiyan transformation-derived state inferior to a legendary transformation such as SSj. We were taught ever since Goku first transformed into SSj that golden hair beats black hair. This is just following the precedent.

[Hulk10]

I dunno about the Ikari being the canonical rationalization of Super Saiyan 4 and I definitely don't agree with the idea that it looks better without red fur.

I agree that it looks better without the fur, because red is a random color. They should have made the fur either brown or golden in the first place. Brown would have felt too weak, and been kinda like this very Ikari form here - regular Oozaru in a human body. Golden fur would have been a logical extension of the Golden Ozaru form that Toei created specifically as a plot device to justify SSj4 in the first place. The fur being red makes it totally random and only highlights Toei's penchant for using cheap-looking colors in their designs. Well, even if the red fur itself doesn't look "cheap", it certainly is a weird choice of color IMO.

If it was, then Broly would surely be more powerful in that form than in his Super Saiyan form,

Just because the power doesn't agree, doesn't mean the concept isn't valid. Keep in mind that we're talking regular Ozaru here, not Golden Ozaru, which was a GT-only creation. If anything, this portrayal is more logical than GT's, as the Ozaru is something any Saiyan can transform into, and not even condensing it into a human body should make the Saiyan stronger than the legendary transformation of SSj. Don't let the fact that its inspiration was called SSj4 blind you to the obvious analogies between these two forms.

but he's not, and also the Ikari form is not a Super Saiyan transformation. SSJ4 is a Super Saiyan transformation, its not part of the main one but its still a Super Saiyan transformation.

And that's the thing - SSj4 was written as being beyond all previous SSj transformations, but its appearance never justified that. Just because SSj4 was written as a "SSj transformation" as you put it, doesn't mean Ikari, whose mechanics appear to be directly inspired by SSj4 - needs to be one too. In fact, like I said above, it's more logical to make a common Saiyan transformation-derived state inferior to a legendary transformation such as SSj. We were taught ever since Goku first transformed into SSj that golden hair beats black hair. This is just following the precedent.

You make good points even if I don't agree with your opinions or your logic. Just because it doesn't follow the gold trumps black doesn't mean its not insanely powerful or cool. Ikari is NOT the 'canon' version of SSJ4, it shares a similar origin but that doesn't make it the canon equivalent.

[Saturnine]

You make good points even if I don't agree with your opinions or your logic. Just because it doesn't follow the gold trumps black doesn't mean its not insanely powerful or cool. Ikari is NOT the 'canon' version of SSJ4, it shares a similar origin but that doesn't make it the canon equivalent.

That may be so, but then again - it's not like SSj4 desperately needs a direct canon equivalent. This may be the closest thing we get, and I wouldn't mind all too much, since it does look cool.

[Hulk10]

You make good points even if I don't agree with your opinions or your logic. Just because it doesn't follow the gold trumps black doesn't mean its not insanely powerful or cool. Ikari is NOT the 'canon' version of SSJ4, it shares a similar origin but that doesn't make it the canon equivalent.

That may be so, but then again - it's not like SSj4 desperately needs a direct canon equivalent. This may be the closest thing we get, and I wouldn't mind all too much, since it does look cool.

Yeah but I wish Broly had a tail.

[DragonBallFan]

I really didn't understand your response to me, because you seemed to be making an argument that it is considerably different but that's what I've been saying this whole time. As in, it appears we were in agreement on this matter but you were seemingly trying to make a counterpoint.

I was asking you what was the difference between SSJ and SSJ2 because I wanted to see if you could actually give me an explanation on the differences, a lot of people say that there's only added lighting, a lot of people say only Youth Gohan's hair changed and Goku only has 3 bangs, but all of this is not true. In the manga you can clearly see a difference, except for wide range shots which is reasonable. You stated the hair on Evolution didn't change, when it clearly does, so I wanted to see if you were one of the people who thinks SSJ and SSJ2 are basically the same.

I didnt say that the hair on Evolution doesn't change. You should read the relevant information before responding, that's why your response didnt make sense.

I said the hair on Evolution didnt change in the design sheets another poster was referencing. That is evidence that the concept in the design sheets wasn't actually used because what we see in the anime itself is that their hair DID change. Therefore, if this prototype design sheet intended to emulate Grade 2, it doesnt matter because the final design is different from that. It isn't just Ascended Super Saiyan 2.0 is my point.

You said:

They aren't even really similar aesthetically, Grade 2 just makes you more muscular while SSBE changes the color of your hair, the aura's color, the nature of the aura, and most importantly, it's most defining physical feature is that it adds pupils to Vegeta's eyes.

it seems to me that you were hinting that the hair didn't change at all in your eyes. And if your talking about the concept art I showed you, I'm pretty sure that was the final design and it looks extremely similar to Grade 2:

Grade 2 has a larger, rougher aura.

SSBE has a larger, slightly rougher aura.

Grade 2 has large muscles.

SSBE has an increase of muscle mass too.

Grade 2 hair becomes longer and spikes outwards.

SSBE hair becomes longer and spikes outwards.

Grade 2 and SSBE concept sheets are similar, you can tell they took HEAVY inspiration from Super Vegeta.

Only difference is color and pupils.

[Rakurai]

And that's the thing - SSj4 was written as being beyond all previous SSj transformations, but its appearance never justified that. Just because SSj4 was written as a "SSj transformation" as you put it, doesn't mean Ikari, whose mechanics appear to be directly inspired by SSj4 - needs to be one too. In fact, like I said above, it's more logical to make a common Saiyan transformation-derived state inferior to a legendary transformation such as SSj. We were taught ever since Goku first transformed into SSj that golden hair beats black hair. This is just following the precedent.

Super Saiyan 4 is stated to be a hybrid transformation, a different class from normal Super Saiyans and only called SSJ4 out of convenience. Its power is derived from Golden Oozaru's power.

And Ultra Instinct Omen begs to differ on hair color powerscaling logic.

[PFM18]

I was asking you what was the difference between SSJ and SSJ2 because I wanted to see if you could actually give me an explanation on the differences, a lot of people say that there's only added lighting, a lot of people say only Youth Gohan's hair changed and Goku only has 3 bangs, but all of this is not true. In the manga you can clearly see a difference, except for wide range shots which is reasonable. You stated the hair on Evolution didn't change, when it clearly does, so I wanted to see if you were one of the people who thinks SSJ and SSJ2 are basically the same.

I didnt say that the hair on Evolution doesn't change. You should read the relevant information before responding, that's why your response didnt make sense.

I said the hair on Evolution didnt change in the design sheets another poster was referencing. That is evidence that the concept in the design sheets wasn't actually used because what we see in the anime itself is that their hair DID change. Therefore, if this prototype design sheet intended to emulate Grade 2, it doesnt matter because the final design is different from that. It isn't just Ascended Super Saiyan 2.0 is my point.

You said:

They aren't even really similar aesthetically, Grade 2 just makes you more muscular while SSBE changes the color of your hair, the aura's color, the nature of the aura, and most importantly, it's most defining physical feature is that it adds pupils to Vegeta's eyes.

it seems to me that you were hinting that the hair didn't change at all in your eyes. And if your talking about the concept art I showed you, I'm pretty sure that was the final design and it looks extremely similar to Grade 2:

Grade 2 has a larger, rougher aura.

SSBE has a larger, slightly rougher aura.

Grade 2 has large muscles.

SSBE has an increase of muscle mass too.

Grade 2 hair becomes longer and spikes outwards.

SSBE hair becomes longer and spikes outwards.

Grade 2 and SSBE concept sheets are similar, you can tell they took HEAVY inspiration from Super Vegeta.

Only difference is color and pupils.

The only tangible similarity aesthetically is that they increase in muscle mass. But literally every SSJ transformation does the same, even if it is to a lesser extent. Grade 2's aura doesnt really change and SSBE's hair doesnt get longer nor does it "spike outwards."

Conceptually in the way that they are achieved, they have nothing in common. The way that they function, and the boost they give, are completely different.

Saying SSBE is "SSB Grade 2" is just not even remotely accurate.

[Saturnine]

Yeah, the similarity between G2 and Ssj Blue Evolved is skin-deep at best.

[DragonBallFan]

I didnt say that the hair on Evolution doesn't change. You should read the relevant information before responding, that's why your response didnt make sense.

I said the hair on Evolution didnt change in the design sheets another poster was referencing. That is evidence that the concept in the design sheets wasn't actually used because what we see in the anime itself is that their hair DID change. Therefore, if this prototype design sheet intended to emulate Grade 2, it doesnt matter because the final design is different from that. It isn't just Ascended Super Saiyan 2.0 is my point.

You said:

They aren't even really similar aesthetically, Grade 2 just makes you more muscular while SSBE changes the color of your hair, the aura's color, the nature of the aura, and most importantly, it's most defining physical feature is that it adds pupils to Vegeta's eyes.

it seems to me that you were hinting that the hair didn't change at all in your eyes. And if your talking about the concept art I showed you, I'm pretty sure that was the final design and it looks extremely similar to Grade 2:

Grade 2 has a larger, rougher aura.

SSBE has a larger, slightly rougher aura.

Grade 2 has large muscles.

SSBE has an increase of muscle mass too.

Grade 2 hair becomes longer and spikes outwards.

SSBE hair becomes longer and spikes outwards.

Grade 2 and SSBE concept sheets are similar, you can tell they took HEAVY inspiration from Super Vegeta.

Only difference is color and pupils.

The only tangible similarity aesthetically is that they increase in muscle mass. But literally every SSJ transformation does the same, even if it is to a lesser extent. Grade 2's aura doesnt really change and SSBE's hair doesnt get longer nor does it "spike outwards."

Conceptually in the way that they are achieved, they have nothing in common. The way that they function, and the boost they give, are completely different.

Saying SSBE is "SSB Grade 2" is just not even remotely accurate.

No, in the manga Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 do not increase in muscle mass, I haven't seen the slightest indication what so ever that that's the case. Maybe in the frieza arc it was, but not anymore.

The way the forms are achieved are different, yes, but they literally pulled a cheap one, as far as I know SSBE is not in the new movie, and I doubt it'll appear again.

The whole point of Grade 2 was to "break the super saiyan wall", to "go above super saiyan". SSBE is "breaking ones limits", hence "breaking the wall".

If you ask me they are VERY similar, look at the flash backs in the future trunks arc when Vegeta goes Super Saiyan Grade 2 and compare it to SSBE, you can see it was HEAVILY inspired.

I know it's not "SSB Grade 2", but in terms of looks, it basically is a rip off.

[PFM18]

No, in the manga Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 do not increase in muscle mass, I haven't seen the slightest indication what so ever that that's the case. Maybe in the frieza arc it was, but not anymore.

The way the forms are achieved are different, yes, but they literally pulled a cheap one, as far as I know SSBE is not in the new movie, and I doubt it'll appear again.

The whole point of Grade 2 was to "break the super saiyan wall", to "go above super saiyan". SSBE is "breaking ones limits", hence "breaking the wall".

If you ask me they are VERY similar, look at the flash backs in the future trunks arc when Vegeta goes Super Saiyan Grade 2 and compare it to SSBE, you can see it was HEAVILY inspired.

I know it's not "SSB Grade 2", but in terms of looks, it basically is a rip off.

When Goku goes SSJ for the first time, and Gohan goes SSJ2 for the first time, both increase in muscle mass. But again, like I said, it is to a much lesser extent to Grade 2.

SSBE not being in the movie has absolutely nothing to do with anything.

Grade 2 is simply using ki to expand your muscle mass and gain power from it. (But not necessarily to the extent of losing speed) SSBE

Visually the ONLY similarity is that they both have increased muscle mass. Again, SSBE's most defining feature is the pupils, and the second most defining feature is that the hair/aura changes color. Neither of those are true of Grade 2. They are simply completely different transformations.

[Acetona]

The monkey fur, eye liners and cholor scheme look ridiculous for SS4, i would go as far as to say it looks hideous.

I share the same opinion with you. Well, except for the eye liners. They are cool.

which of these two supremely powerful transformations do you think is the best to call the true ultimate form of the Saiyans to strive for?

Neither. Super Saiyan 2 should be the greatest form (well, it already is, only surpassed in power by other random forms).

Nailed it.

[ssj3kakarot]

Super Saiyan Blue KK, the most aesthetically pleasing and potentially the most powerful state bar Ultra Instinct.

SSJ4 has a good concept but the execution looks terribly bad, eye liners, fur coat, magical clothes appear out of nowhere when transforming and that annoying tail are simply a joke.

....right, and Magically blue hair isn't a joke? This is a show where animals talk, so fur coat and magical hair seem pretty in-line for this series! I mean, these creatures can turn into 40 feet tall monkeys!

[Saturnine]

I need to agree. SSj4 is flawed and it's not all roses. Not to mention it feels a bit odd and plain bad on fusions, where they both look like the solo characters.

[Ssb_goku20]

It was stated that Ssj4 Goku was around base Vegito's power from Z they even showed a picture of base Vegito as well plus Omega was stated to be able to destroy a Universe overtime where else Ssg Goku and Beerus almost destroyed everything with a few punches. Now with using the Manga's power scaling that means Dbs Goku's base is still in the early Buu Saga range but he's true power comes when he uses Ssg and beyond. Ssg was stated to be the only way they could fight Beerus during that time which confirms Ssg > a hypothetical Ssj3 Vegito ( Z ) and note this is coming from Goku, Vegeta and Whis who knows how powerful the Potara is but yet they stayed with the belief Ssg is superior to Fusion so that means just by comparing Ssj4 and Ssg to Vegito we can automatically tell Ssg is superior and by extension any other form beyond it. Now compared to the disadvantages Pssb has such as the user needing to concentrate immensely to keep Blue's Ki from leaking out plus the strain of doing so makes Ssj4 the more efficient form in terms of the fact the users doesn't need to do all that. But by going by how the Anime depicts Blue ( including the Movies ) then the benefits it offers is similar to the mastered Ssj form with an extra as Ssb Kaioken is a thing that can be used while alive where else Ssj Kaioken was a thing when Goku was dead ( yes i know Non Canon but it still proves a point ). Not to mention Goku and Vegeta has increased Blue's power as well while the only implication of Ssj4's power being increased is with Goku and Vegeta Xeno where it's stated their Ssj4 forms can only be used when absolutely necessary or at least where Time doesn't exist and when taking Sdbh Heroes in to account Ssb Goku fought evenly with Ssj4 Goku Xeno which means the Xeno's has massively improved Ssj4 to the point it can compete with God forms. So overall Ssj4 has only one advantage over the Manga's Ssb/Pssb and that's it's low strain while the Anime's Ssb ( including the Movies ) greatly surpasses Ssj4.

[Saturnine]

....right, and Magically blue hair isn't a joke?

I don't think how that's even comparable.