Just HOW strong is the super Dragon?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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ssj3kakarot
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Just HOW strong is the super Dragon?

Post by ssj3kakarot » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:36 pm

I'm curious after reading chapter 42 where it states again that no wish is beyond Omni-verse Shenron power (thats what I call him). Just how strong does everyone think the super Dragon is?

Does Grand Priest really mean literally " no wish ". So I can wish for " No more Zeno," and it will be granted? We believe that other dragons had ultimate power only to reveal that they indeed had certain limitations. Clearly Super Shenlong has been flagged as truly a limitless wish dragon. But what does that say about Zalama? I mean, isn't he the one that created the balls back in the day?
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Re: Just HOW strong is the super Dragon?

Post by MKCSTEALTH » Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:30 am

Hes strong enough to undo the work of the Omni King and restore 7 erased universes. So it's very likely that "no wish is beyond his power"

If the old lore of Dragonball is being held on to, the dragon's strength is determined by the strength of its creator. So Zalama must be exceptionally powerful. If you adhere to the theory that Zalama is the "Kai" to Zen-oh's "God of Destruction" (given that we've only seen him destroy, not create), then it could explain why

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Re: Just HOW strong is the super Dragon?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:21 am

I made a thread about this earlier.
Cool stuff that I upload here because Youtube will copyright claim it: https://vimeo.com/user60967147

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Re: Just HOW strong is the super Dragon?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:58 am

Not strong enough to make Zamasu invulnerable to Zeno's erasure technique.

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Re: Just HOW strong is the super Dragon?

Post by mute_proxy » Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:01 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:Not strong enough to make Zamasu invulnerable to Zeno's erasure technique.
Zamasu wasn't specific on the quality of his immortality when stating his wish lol

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Re: Just HOW strong is the super Dragon?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:06 am

mute_proxy wrote:
SupremeKai25 wrote:Not strong enough to make Zamasu invulnerable to Zeno's erasure technique.
Zamasu wasn't specific on the quality of his immortality when stating his wish lol
He wished for an invulnerable body and an immortal soul. He managed to survive everything, even the utter annihilation of his own physical body. But he stood no chance against Zeno's erasure technique that completely obliterated his immortal soul. His immortality was granted by the very Dragon of the Gods, its quality was already the best you could find.

It would be unthinkable if Zeno, King of All, were not above the power of the divine Dragon. He is the King of All, for crying out loud. No thing in the cosmos should have the power to dethrone him, not even the Super Dragon Balls. But perhaps I am giving too much credit to that stupid child.

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Re: Just HOW strong is the super Dragon?

Post by Lionel » Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:50 pm

Assuming Super Shenron follows the same mechanics as Shenron and Porunga, his power would be bound by the limitations of Zarama. Judging from what we've seen so far, it seems like Zarama might be of an order of being equivalent to Zeno. I like the theory proposed about Zarama representing creation in a juxtaposition to Zeno's symbolism as destruction or "erasure".

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Re: Just HOW strong is the super Dragon?

Post by Xeogran » Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:30 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:Not strong enough to make Zamasu invulnerable to Zeno's erasure technique.
Isn't the whole thing with Zamasu contradictory?
Since Super Shenron can clearly reverse Zeno's erasure, then how comes Zamasu could get erased without recovering his body back, despite gaining immortality from the same Shenron?

Unless Zamasu needed to wish himself to be "unerasable" too.

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Re: Just HOW strong is the super Dragon?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:56 pm

Xeogran wrote:
SupremeKai25 wrote:Not strong enough to make Zamasu invulnerable to Zeno's erasure technique.
Isn't the whole thing with Zamasu contradictory?
Since Super Shenron can clearly reverse Zeno's erasure, then how comes Zamasu could get erased without recovering his body back, despite gaining immortality from the same Shenron?

Unless Zamasu needed to wish himself to be "unerasable" too.
I think Zamasu was already "unerasable". He was effectively invulnerable to anything, because his immortality was granted by the divine Dragon of the Gods (his immortality was perfect, flawless). Indeed, in the manga, it is specifically stated that even the Hakai technique of Beerus and the other Gods of Destruction couldn't affect the immortal Future Zamasu.

The Hakai and Zeno's Erase technique obviously work in different ways, but the end result is the same: The victim ceases to exist and their soul is destroyed, it doesn't go to the Otherworld. And since Zamasu was invulnerable to the Hakai (so the Dragon did make him immune to even erasure), he technically should have resisted even Zeno's Erase technique, but since he is the King of All, I guess he is an exception.

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Re: Just HOW strong is the super Dragon?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:15 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Xeogran wrote:
SupremeKai25 wrote:Not strong enough to make Zamasu invulnerable to Zeno's erasure technique.
Isn't the whole thing with Zamasu contradictory?
Since Super Shenron can clearly reverse Zeno's erasure, then how comes Zamasu could get erased without recovering his body back, despite gaining immortality from the same Shenron?

Unless Zamasu needed to wish himself to be "unerasable" too.
I think Zamasu was already "unerasable". He was effectively invulnerable to anything, because his immortality was granted by the divine Dragon of the Gods (his immortality was perfect, flawless). Indeed, in the manga, it is specifically stated that even the Hakai technique of Beerus and the other Gods of Destruction couldn't affect the immortal Future Zamasu.

The Hakai and Zeno's Erase technique obviously work in different ways, but the end result is the same: The victim ceases to exist and their soul is destroyed, it doesn't go to the Otherworld. And since Zamasu was invulnerable to the Hakai (so the Dragon did make him immune to even erasure), he technically should have resisted even Zeno's Erase technique, but since he is the King of All, I guess he is an exception.
In the manga, Zeno erased the entire timeline. So Zamasu wasn't just erased physically and spiritually like he would be with a Hakai technique, rather his entire history was erased, including the event of him making the wish for immortality in the first place.
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Re: Just HOW strong is the super Dragon?

Post by Xeogran » Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:56 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:In the manga, Zeno erased the entire timeline. So Zamasu wasn't just erased physically and spiritually like he would be with a Hakai technique, rather his entire history was erased, including the event of him making the wish for immortality in the first place.
Lookin at it this way, it makes more sense. Thanks.

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Re: Just HOW strong is the super Dragon?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:26 pm

Xeogran wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote:In the manga, Zeno erased the entire timeline. So Zamasu wasn't just erased physically and spiritually like he would be with a Hakai technique, rather his entire history was erased, including the event of him making the wish for immortality in the first place.
Lookin at it this way, it makes more sense. Thanks.
same thing happened in the anime BTW

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Re: Just HOW strong is the super Dragon?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:42 am

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Xeogran wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote:In the manga, Zeno erased the entire timeline. So Zamasu wasn't just erased physically and spiritually like he would be with a Hakai technique, rather his entire history was erased, including the event of him making the wish for immortality in the first place.
Lookin at it this way, it makes more sense. Thanks.
same thing happened in the anime BTW
Well, not quite. In the manga we see the time ring representing the timeline shatter.
Cool stuff that I upload here because Youtube will copyright claim it: https://vimeo.com/user60967147

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Re: Just HOW strong is the super Dragon?

Post by Galan007 » Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:51 pm

ssj3kakarot wrote:Does Grand Priest really mean literally " no wish ". So I can wish for " No more Zeno," and it will be granted? We believe that other dragons had ultimate power only to reveal that they indeed had certain limitations. Clearly Super Shenlong has been flagged as truly a limitless wish dragon. But what does that say about Zalama? I mean, isn't he the one that created the balls back in the day?


For Daishinkan to state this:
And for the Zen-Ohs to state this:
Speaks volumes, given that they are the two(or rather, three) most powerful beings in the whole of DB creation. Accolades from them carry a lot of weight, imo, and heavily imply that the Super Dragon's wish-granting abilities are about as unbounded as it can possibly get in this franchise.

That said, we have two key instances to go by where Zen-Oh and the Dragon are concerned:
1.) Zen-Oh essentially undoes a wish from the Super Dragon when he perma-kills 'immortal' Zamasu.
2.) The Super Dragon essentially undoes Zen-Oh's erasure(s) when it resurrects all universes that Zen-Oh had destroyed.

Could the Super Dragon kill Zen-Oh, though? Impossible to say. Seems like an "unstoppable force vs. immovable object" sort of scenario to me. /shrug

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