Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

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Potara_Vegetto
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Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by Potara_Vegetto » Sat Dec 08, 2018 12:23 pm

What do you guys think about this? Non-sense? Comparable?

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by PFM18 » Sat Dec 08, 2018 12:29 pm

Nope.

Initially during BoG it was:

SSG Goku=SSJ Goku
and then it became:

SSJ Goku>SSG Goku

And there were statements regarding it saying that Goku ahd made the power his own, but all the while he was in his SSJ form. Then, Beerus comments that he is at his limit, and he starts shouting "Shut up!" a couple times, and punches the SoD in Base, and tells Beerus afterwards not to ever go telling him what his limits are. In other words, he was pissed, and broke his limits for that moment, is the way the scene was presented. It's fairly common for characters get brief rage boosts, and I don't think this was any different, especially with the dialogue surrounding the scene. Therefore:

SSJ Goku>=SSG Goku
Base Goku>=SSG Goku/50

And Goku got stronger since then obviously, but I don't think he got 50x stronger, for his Base to surpass his previous SSJ form. Therefore it follows that:

BoG SSG Goku>ToP Base Goku

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by Mister_Popo » Sat Dec 08, 2018 12:32 pm

That would make Katopesla stronger than ritual SSG Goku. As far as i'm concerned, that doesn't make any sense.

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by PFM18 » Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:05 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:That would make Katopesla stronger than ritual SSG Goku. As far as i'm concerned, that doesn't make any sense.
Vegeta needed SSJ against Katopesla it seems, so that would make him stronger than ritual SSG Goku given the statements we have. Katospela may be goofy, but he is still one of the strongest fighters in the entire multiverse.

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by DestructoDisc » Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:26 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Mister_Popo wrote:That would make Katopesla stronger than ritual SSG Goku. As far as i'm concerned, that doesn't make any sense.
Vegeta needed SSJ against Katopesla it seems, so that would make him stronger than ritual SSG Goku given the statements we have. Katospela may be goofy, but he is still one of the strongest fighters in the entire multiverse.
Correction, his suit is.

Give that suit to Krillin and he would be one of the strongest fighters in the entire multiverse.

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by Mister_Popo » Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:48 pm

DestructoDisc wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Mister_Popo wrote:That would make Katopesla stronger than ritual SSG Goku. As far as i'm concerned, that doesn't make any sense.
Vegeta needed SSJ against Katopesla it seems, so that would make him stronger than ritual SSG Goku given the statements we have. Katospela may be goofy, but he is still one of the strongest fighters in the entire multiverse.
Correction, his suit is.

Give that suit to Krillin and he would be one of the strongest fighters in the entire multiverse.

You guys believe a suit is a lot more efficient than a divine ritual?

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by PFM18 » Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:01 pm

DestructoDisc wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Mister_Popo wrote:That would make Katopesla stronger than ritual SSG Goku. As far as i'm concerned, that doesn't make any sense.
Vegeta needed SSJ against Katopesla it seems, so that would make him stronger than ritual SSG Goku given the statements we have. Katospela may be goofy, but he is still one of the strongest fighters in the entire multiverse.
Correction, his suit is.

Give that suit to Krillin and he would be one of the strongest fighters in the entire multiverse.
Semantics. And even if his power is multiplied magnitudes over, he still has to be really strong for that multiplication to be enough to allow him to compete with Vegeta.
Mister_Popo wrote:You guys believe a suit is a lot more efficient than a divine ritual?
That may be oversimplifying things a bit because there's a lot of factos involved. But even if it may seem goofy, it certainly appears he is on that level at least, as far as we can tell.

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by Saturnine » Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:09 am

As I said many times before, personally I don't think base Goku was ssj God Goku divided by 50. If Ssj God power can be absorbed into base once, why couldn't it be absorbed an unlimited number of times, creating a perpetual cycle of powerups? Bringing back the Ssj God form in the anime pretty much sealed the notion of SSjG powering up the base form for me.

Of course initially it was Toriyama's very intention, executed in RoF for example. I suspect linking the SSj form to power calculations here is reading too deep into things, it might as well have just been an attempt by the anime makers to put a different spin on the story than the movie did.

I've grown somewhat warmer towards PFM's idea over time though, and might be willing to do some powerscaling of my own to see how it works. Super is going to be very difficult to scale now though, with the fusion multiplier being much bigger than the SSj Blue multiplier, while initially the very opposite was suggested.

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by superfan2024 » Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:29 am

Nonsense. Also, there is literally no possible way we can justify that theory at all.

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by PFM18 » Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:13 pm

superfan2024 wrote:Nonsense. Also, there is literally no possible way we can justify that theory at all.
Justify what theory?

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by superfan2024 » Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:48 pm

PFM18 wrote:
superfan2024 wrote:Nonsense. Also, there is literally no possible way we can justify that theory at all.
Justify what theory?
The OP's claim: Base form Goku (ToP) is stronger than ritual SSG Goku.

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by Mister_Popo » Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:50 pm

With massive headcanon we might think beings from other universes are much stronger from birth than beings from universe 7. That would however also imply Piccolo made a power jump from ROF- to U6-arc that suspends all belief. He would have grown to someone who was even weaker than a SSJ Gohan that hasn't trained for so many years during ROF to someone who surpassed ssj Goku (U6 Arc), who "should be stronger" than the ssj ritual Goku. Given the fact Piccolo isn't Broly and didn't received a ritual either, that's a massive plothole that simply can't even be explained by 'a suit from U3 is a much stronger mulitplier than a divine ritual from U7', which seems ridiculous in its own right.

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by Miracles » Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:54 pm

When has base Goku ever been stronger than his powered up versions?
Never happened in main Dragonball story and didn't happen in Super.

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by PFM18 » Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:28 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:That would however also imply Piccolo made a power jump from ROF- to U6-arc that suspends all belief. He would have grown to someone who was even weaker than a SSJ Gohan that hasn't trained for so many years during ROF to someone who surpassed ssj Goku (U6 Arc)
Huh? How do you come to this conclusion? There's no reason to believe U6 arc Piccolo>U6 arc SSJ Goku as far as I'm aware.
that's a massive plothole that simply can't even be explained by 'a suit from U3 is a much stronger mulitplier than a divine ritual from U7', which seems ridiculous in its own right.
Again, the guy is one of the strongest fighters in his Universe, I don't see any reason why he couldn't be extremely powerful. In fact, it would seem ridiculous if he WASN'T extremely powerful, considering the status he has in his Universe and how most Universes are supposed to compare to Universe 7.

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by Lukmendes » Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:19 pm

Miracles wrote:When has base Goku ever been stronger than his powered up versions?
Never happened in main Dragonball story and didn't happen in Super.
Well, we have base form Goku being stronger than 4 months of training Freeza's fourth form, and in his first form alone, Freeza outclassed everyone else, so Goku was above his Z versions of SS1 at the very least and SS3 at most in base, there's also Fake Vegeta easily defeating SS3 Gotenks in base form, and even if you count that as "non canon filler" shit, Goku vs Freeza is still there, and in all 3 versions he's stronger than Freeza's fourth form in base.

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by zarmack » Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:24 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:That would make Katopesla stronger than ritual SSG Goku. As far as i'm concerned, that doesn't make any sense.
The fact that he was able to throw hands with ToP SSJ1 Vegeta says a lot.

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by zarmack » Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:28 pm

The only reason people deny Base Goku & Vegeta being that strong is because they don't like it (despite nothing contradicting it), or because they want Buu arc level and GT characters to still be relevant to Super powerscaling wise.

And there's no such thing as filler in the Super anime (since its not an adaptation of anything else), so the Copy-Vegeta stuff counts.

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by Saturnine » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:18 am

zarmack wrote:The only reason people deny Base Goku & Vegeta being that strong is because they don't like it (despite nothing contradicting it), or because they want Buu arc level and GT characters to still be relevant to Super powerscaling wise.
You're just assuming that. There's nothing not to like about Goku and Vegeta being that strong in base. When it became a thing in RoF, everyone was thrilled. People are just not happy because soon afterwards Saiyans who had never even heard of SSj are suddenly as powerful as a SSj of many years who has absorbed the power of a god (or at least people like you think they are). You can't be mad at people for it not sitting well with them.
And there's no such thing as filler in the Super anime (since its not an adaptation of anything else), so the Copy-Vegeta stuff counts.
It counts alright, but that doesn't mean the writers had received the latest power scaling memo when they wrote it, lol.

There are instances when Goku and Vegeta are portrayed as if they had the power of SSjG in base, and there are instances where they are portrayed as if they didn't - simple as that. The writers made a mess out of it and then later tried desperately to tidy it up by reintroducing SSj God. While I prefer the anime to the manga in general, I have to at least admit that in the manga Toyotaro made the relationship of the base form and SSjG quite clear.

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by Mister_Popo » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:34 pm

zarmack wrote:The only reason people deny Base Goku & Vegeta being that strong is because they don't like it (despite nothing contradicting it), or because they want Buu arc level and GT characters to still be relevant to Super powerscaling wise.

And there's no such thing as filler in the Super anime (since its not an adaptation of anything else), so the Copy-Vegeta stuff counts.

I just don't think it's really believable every opponent against whom Goku or Vegeta use SSJ, makes those characters automatically above BOG SSG Goku.
Frost and Caulifla can be BOG-tier from my part, i just don't think narratively speaking there are elements to believe they are only because Goku goes SSJ1 against them.
For me it has nothing to do with DBZ or GT characters being a holy grail that can't easily be touched, characters are getting stronger all the time since the earliest days of Dragon Ball. It has more to do with the general believability of the suggested power levels when watching Super and taking into account the background of those characters.

Paragus in the Broly-movie for instance isn't pimped to extremes, he has a normal power level (i believe it's 26 000 orso) that's acceptable for a Saiyan of his age and rank.
Caulifla is, not taking into notice Goku would be BOG SSG-level in base, already outrageousnessly powerful for a Saiyan of her age and mainly battle experience being able to push a TOP-base Goku, although stamina-weakened, into SSJ1, even when taking a guess U6-Saiyans could be a lot stronger from birth, which isn't a proven fact either. 'Reason' and not likeabilitiy makes me believe from such examples Goku is not BOG SSG-levels in base nor in SSJ1.

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by Ssenrof » Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:44 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:
zarmack wrote:The only reason people deny Base Goku & Vegeta being that strong is because they don't like it (despite nothing contradicting it), or because they want Buu arc level and GT characters to still be relevant to Super powerscaling wise.

And there's no such thing as filler in the Super anime (since its not an adaptation of anything else), so the Copy-Vegeta stuff counts.

I just don't think it's really believable every opponent against whom Goku or Vegeta use SSJ, makes those characters automatically above BOG SSG Goku.
Frost and Caulifla can be BOG-tier from my part, i just don't think narratively speaking there are elements to believe they are only because Goku goes SSJ1 against them.
For me it has nothing to do with DBZ or GT characters being a holy grail that can't easily be touched, characters are getting stronger all the time since the earliest days of Dragon Ball. It has more to do with the general believability of the suggested power levels when watching Super and taking into account the background of those characters.

Paragus in the Broly-movie for instance isn't pimped to extremes, he has a normal power level (i believe it's 26 000 orso) that's acceptable for a Saiyan of his age and rank.
Caulifla is, not taking into notice Goku would be BOG SSG-level in base, already outrageousnessly powerful for a Saiyan of her age and mainly battle experience being able to push a TOP-base Goku, although stamina-weakened, into SSJ1, even when taking a guess U6-Saiyans could be a lot stronger from birth, which isn't a proven fact either. 'Reason' and not likeabilitiy makes me believe from such examples Goku is not BOG SSG-levels in base nor in SSJ1.

I’ve never felt that- Things like- it doesn’t match the narrative- are good reasons to disregard what is being directly told to us.

Bad writing doesn’t decide canon, nor does the incredulity of the presented narrative. The universe being governed by a literal child - and no one doing anything about it- is nonsense. But it’s still the objective- literal interpretation.

Power levels are a mess - always will Be. People invoke all matters of headcannon, just to make have some coherency.

All we do know is that SSJ Goku is clearly comparable to SSG Goku.

So, all you need to do is presume that Goku gets a 50x boost-( presuming there hasn’t been a retcon to the multiplier) eventually. And you get base = god.

We know that Goku in Base Blue can match Hit, where previously, it took kio-ken x20. So, over the course of the Trunks arc- Goku become atleast 20x more powerful.

Also, during the TOP- Goku’s power is absurd. Howver, it’s clear that against a suppressed Jiren- Goku’s kio-ken x20 is casually obliterated. Jiren defeats it with a glare. - a slight tap. And later Goku can fight Jiren just fine- a Jiren that isn’t suppressed. Hell, his base blue form does better than His previous kio-ken x20- so you can argue another x20 boost right there.

We also know that- base Goku is comparable to true form Frieza. Where, first form Frieza can 1-shot SSJ Gohan. And we know base Gohan is superior to Piccolo- based on the Tagoma stuff. So, even by Golden Frieza you can argue Base Goku is near god tier. Atleast, far closer to god tier than the other way around.

Now, you can argue that all of this has been retconned- or is inconsistant but- you can’t claim that the position with the least presumptions isn’t that Base Goku is arguably stronger than BOG Goku, or atleast relatively close.

You have to assume far more headcannon to believe that Base Goku is still within Buu saga tier strength, than to just believe what is explicitly stated.

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