Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by Mister_Popo » Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:25 am

Ssenrof wrote:
Mister_Popo wrote:
zarmack wrote:The only reason people deny Base Goku & Vegeta being that strong is because they don't like it (despite nothing contradicting it), or because they want Buu arc level and GT characters to still be relevant to Super powerscaling wise.

And there's no such thing as filler in the Super anime (since its not an adaptation of anything else), so the Copy-Vegeta stuff counts.

I just don't think it's really believable every opponent against whom Goku or Vegeta use SSJ, makes those characters automatically above BOG SSG Goku.
Frost and Caulifla can be BOG-tier from my part, i just don't think narratively speaking there are elements to believe they are only because Goku goes SSJ1 against them.
For me it has nothing to do with DBZ or GT characters being a holy grail that can't easily be touched, characters are getting stronger all the time since the earliest days of Dragon Ball. It has more to do with the general believability of the suggested power levels when watching Super and taking into account the background of those characters.

Paragus in the Broly-movie for instance isn't pimped to extremes, he has a normal power level (i believe it's 26 000 orso) that's acceptable for a Saiyan of his age and rank.
Caulifla is, not taking into notice Goku would be BOG SSG-level in base, already outrageousnessly powerful for a Saiyan of her age and mainly battle experience being able to push a TOP-base Goku, although stamina-weakened, into SSJ1, even when taking a guess U6-Saiyans could be a lot stronger from birth, which isn't a proven fact either. 'Reason' and not likeabilitiy makes me believe from such examples Goku is not BOG SSG-levels in base nor in SSJ1.

I’ve never felt that- Things like- it doesn’t match the narrative- are good reasons to disregard what is being directly told to us.

Bad writing doesn’t decide canon, nor does the incredulity of the presented narrative. The universe being governed by a literal child - and no one doing anything about it- is nonsense. But it’s still the objective- literal interpretation.

Power levels are a mess - always will Be. People invoke all matters of headcannon, just to make have some coherency.

All we do know is that SSJ Goku is clearly comparable to SSG Goku.

So, all you need to do is presume that Goku gets a 50x boost-( presuming there hasn’t been a retcon to the multiplier) eventually. And you get base = god.

We know that Goku in Base Blue can match Hit, where previously, it took kio-ken x20. So, over the course of the Trunks arc- Goku become atleast 20x more powerful.

Also, during the TOP- Goku’s power is absurd. Howver, it’s clear that against a suppressed Jiren- Goku’s kio-ken x20 is casually obliterated. Jiren defeats it with a glare. - a slight tap. And later Goku can fight Jiren just fine- a Jiren that isn’t suppressed. Hell, his base blue form does better than His previous kio-ken x20- so you can argue another x20 boost right there.

We also know that- base Goku is comparable to true form Frieza. Where, first form Frieza can 1-shot SSJ Gohan. And we know base Gohan is superior to Piccolo- based on the Tagoma stuff. So, even by Golden Frieza you can argue Base Goku is near god tier. Atleast, far closer to god tier than the other way around.

Now, you can argue that all of this has been retconned- or is inconsistant but- you can’t claim that the position with the least presumptions isn’t that Base Goku is arguably stronger than BOG Goku, or atleast relatively close.

You have to assume far more headcannon to believe that Base Goku is still within Buu saga tier strength, than to just believe what is explicitly stated.

That's IF base Goku is still on pair with True Form Freeza, which clearly isn't the case whatsoever during TOP.
If base Goku can match True form Freeza during TOP, how do you explain he still has to use his SSG-form and even Blue-form to match Dyspo, who can hold his own against True Form Freeza?
That's not what i've said. It's not about contesting the fact characters do evolve massively in power, it's all about how strong certain characters stay / are in comparison to each other.

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by PFM18 » Sun Dec 16, 2018 4:56 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:
Ssenrof wrote:
Mister_Popo wrote:

I just don't think it's really believable every opponent against whom Goku or Vegeta use SSJ, makes those characters automatically above BOG SSG Goku.
Frost and Caulifla can be BOG-tier from my part, i just don't think narratively speaking there are elements to believe they are only because Goku goes SSJ1 against them.
For me it has nothing to do with DBZ or GT characters being a holy grail that can't easily be touched, characters are getting stronger all the time since the earliest days of Dragon Ball. It has more to do with the general believability of the suggested power levels when watching Super and taking into account the background of those characters.

Paragus in the Broly-movie for instance isn't pimped to extremes, he has a normal power level (i believe it's 26 000 orso) that's acceptable for a Saiyan of his age and rank.
Caulifla is, not taking into notice Goku would be BOG SSG-level in base, already outrageousnessly powerful for a Saiyan of her age and mainly battle experience being able to push a TOP-base Goku, although stamina-weakened, into SSJ1, even when taking a guess U6-Saiyans could be a lot stronger from birth, which isn't a proven fact either. 'Reason' and not likeabilitiy makes me believe from such examples Goku is not BOG SSG-levels in base nor in SSJ1.

I’ve never felt that- Things like- it doesn’t match the narrative- are good reasons to disregard what is being directly told to us.

Bad writing doesn’t decide canon, nor does the incredulity of the presented narrative. The universe being governed by a literal child - and no one doing anything about it- is nonsense. But it’s still the objective- literal interpretation.

Power levels are a mess - always will Be. People invoke all matters of headcannon, just to make have some coherency.

All we do know is that SSJ Goku is clearly comparable to SSG Goku.

So, all you need to do is presume that Goku gets a 50x boost-( presuming there hasn’t been a retcon to the multiplier) eventually. And you get base = god.

We know that Goku in Base Blue can match Hit, where previously, it took kio-ken x20. So, over the course of the Trunks arc- Goku become atleast 20x more powerful.

Also, during the TOP- Goku’s power is absurd. Howver, it’s clear that against a suppressed Jiren- Goku’s kio-ken x20 is casually obliterated. Jiren defeats it with a glare. - a slight tap. And later Goku can fight Jiren just fine- a Jiren that isn’t suppressed. Hell, his base blue form does better than His previous kio-ken x20- so you can argue another x20 boost right there.

We also know that- base Goku is comparable to true form Frieza. Where, first form Frieza can 1-shot SSJ Gohan. And we know base Gohan is superior to Piccolo- based on the Tagoma stuff. So, even by Golden Frieza you can argue Base Goku is near god tier. Atleast, far closer to god tier than the other way around.

Now, you can argue that all of this has been retconned- or is inconsistant but- you can’t claim that the position with the least presumptions isn’t that Base Goku is arguably stronger than BOG Goku, or atleast relatively close.

You have to assume far more headcannon to believe that Base Goku is still within Buu saga tier strength, than to just believe what is explicitly stated.

That's IF base Goku is still on pair with True Form Freeza, which clearly isn't the case whatsoever during TOP.
If base Goku can match True form Freeza during TOP, how do you explain he still has to use his SSG-form and even Blue-form to match Dyspo, who can hold his own against True Form Freeza?
That's not what i've said. It's not about contesting the fact characters do evolve massively in power, it's all about how strong certain characters stay / are in comparison to each other.
Narratively, the fight with Dyspo had nothing to do with power. Dyspo's movements were too linear and too predictable, and he obviously, especially at the time had wya more speed than he does strength. So using their performance against Dyspo as evidence that Final Form Freeza~Base Goku is no longer true doesn't hold any water.

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by Mister_Popo » Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:20 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Mister_Popo wrote:
Ssenrof wrote:

I’ve never felt that- Things like- it doesn’t match the narrative- are good reasons to disregard what is being directly told to us.

Bad writing doesn’t decide canon, nor does the incredulity of the presented narrative. The universe being governed by a literal child - and no one doing anything about it- is nonsense. But it’s still the objective- literal interpretation.

Power levels are a mess - always will Be. People invoke all matters of headcannon, just to make have some coherency.

All we do know is that SSJ Goku is clearly comparable to SSG Goku.

So, all you need to do is presume that Goku gets a 50x boost-( presuming there hasn’t been a retcon to the multiplier) eventually. And you get base = god.

We know that Goku in Base Blue can match Hit, where previously, it took kio-ken x20. So, over the course of the Trunks arc- Goku become atleast 20x more powerful.

Also, during the TOP- Goku’s power is absurd. Howver, it’s clear that against a suppressed Jiren- Goku’s kio-ken x20 is casually obliterated. Jiren defeats it with a glare. - a slight tap. And later Goku can fight Jiren just fine- a Jiren that isn’t suppressed. Hell, his base blue form does better than His previous kio-ken x20- so you can argue another x20 boost right there.

We also know that- base Goku is comparable to true form Frieza. Where, first form Frieza can 1-shot SSJ Gohan. And we know base Gohan is superior to Piccolo- based on the Tagoma stuff. So, even by Golden Frieza you can argue Base Goku is near god tier. Atleast, far closer to god tier than the other way around.

Now, you can argue that all of this has been retconned- or is inconsistant but- you can’t claim that the position with the least presumptions isn’t that Base Goku is arguably stronger than BOG Goku, or atleast relatively close.

You have to assume far more headcannon to believe that Base Goku is still within Buu saga tier strength, than to just believe what is explicitly stated.

That's IF base Goku is still on pair with True Form Freeza, which clearly isn't the case whatsoever during TOP.
If base Goku can match True form Freeza during TOP, how do you explain he still has to use his SSG-form and even Blue-form to match Dyspo, who can hold his own against True Form Freeza?
That's not what i've said. It's not about contesting the fact characters do evolve massively in power, it's all about how strong certain characters stay / are in comparison to each other.
Narratively, the fight with Dyspo had nothing to do with power. Dyspo's movements were too linear and too predictable, and he obviously, especially at the time had wya more speed than he does strength. So using their performance against Dyspo as evidence that Final Form Freeza~Base Goku is no longer true doesn't hold any water.

But Goku and Freeza both do have linear speed and strength, do they, they both increase as their power increases.
Their parameters are set on the same level to match Dyspos speed.
I know Dyspos speed isn't linear with his strength. He probably used the same tactics against Goku (who needed a lot more than base) as he did against True Form Freeza.
Those things in mind, does not give Goku any advantages over Freeza against Dyspo.

When is it ever confirmed during the Super anime, after BOG and ROF, they have kept the unusual power in "base" forever and it wasn't a temporary thing altogether?
When was it ever confirmed during the BOG- and ROF-retellings by Whis or Beerus or even Goku and Vegete themselves they were to keep that kind of power in base forever?

Never. It was never confirmed in the story itself Goku has kept all the power he used at the end of BOG against Beerus.
He broke his limits, yes, just as he broke his limits against Jiren, but that was a temporary thing as well.
Not every power-up is taken along within the story untill eternity.
So the assumption it does, is basically headcanon and not the assumption it isn't. That's backwards logic altogether to make ones horse fit the stall.
And no, this has nothing to do with DBZ and GT characters being the be all end all, characters get stronger all time, that's no argument in this matter.

The simple fact Goku still has to transform to go SSG for me confirms he does not contain the power of SSG within himself. He still has to transform to make use of it.
Blue is another transformation altogether. SSG however was never shown to be contained into base after BOG or ROF.
If Black could only match Goku Blue when going Rosé and using God-Ki, how on earth could he match Goku in the present time when he was supposedly not using God-Ki and Goku was using the power of a SSG he had "absorbed and kept"?

I still rest my case certain characters can't be as strong as they are considering the fact Goku is currently stronger than BOG arc SSG.

The fact base Goku can spar against Buu is no proof either base Goku is above SSG BOG Goku. They weren't going all out in the first place.
Moreover: Super base Goku isn't base Goku Buu arc levels.

Base Gokus power of course has increased dramatically since BOG, he still receives Zenkai Boosts. His current base power could very well reside between ssj3 Buu arc Goku and base Buu arc Vegetto, without having to match with 100 % certainty SSG BOG Goku.

I have multiple examples and i can give you more just because these aren't lucky observations just to match a single opinion.
I tend to forgive Supers inconsistencies more than others but i see they are there. I don't prefer to use headcanon and ignore the fact Super has inconsistencies in the first place.
Correction, i do have my own headcanon to explain things, but i don't demand others to dictatorially follow me and demand this is the only valable argumentation to explain certain facts.

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by PFM18 » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:18 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:But Goku and Freeza both do have linear speed and strength, do they, they both increase as their power increases.
Their parameters are set on the same level to match Dyspos speed.
I know Dyspos speed isn't linear with his strength. He probably used the same tactics against Goku (who needed a lot more than base) as he did against True Form Freeza.
Those things in mind, does not give Goku any advantages over Freeza against Dyspo.
This isn't a matter of the strength/speed correlating linearly that's entirely not the point. When I said "linear", it was in reference to describing the way that Dyspo was fighting, his movements/attacks were described to be linear and predictable. That is why Freeza was able to do so well, because Dyspo's movements were predictable. It was made very clear that this was not a result of power. No reason to believe Base Goku~Final Form Freeza can't be true.
When is it ever confirmed during the Super anime, after BOG and ROF, they have kept the unusual power in "base" forever and it wasn't a temporary thing altogether?
When was it ever confirmed during the BOG- and ROF-retellings by Whis or Beerus or even Goku and Vegete themselves they were to keep that kind of power in base forever?
First of all, the burden of proof is on you to prove that it is temporary, not for somebody to disprove it being temporary. We are to assume it persists until told otherwise.

They used the time in between RoF and BoG to make it very clear that this wasn't temporary, though. The narrative establishes, that Goku in those 6 months that Vegeta was training with Whis, was working all the time for Chi-Chi and wasn't training very much. And yet, when Goku shows up he tells Vegeta that his ki is completely unrecognizable from what it was on Earth, and that when he sensed him he couldn't even tell it was him,(because his ki was so much larger) and yet, Goku says "you might even be stronger than me." If Vegeta got an astronomical power boost, how is it questionable that he is stronger than Goku when Goku had barely been training? Because he retained the power he gained in space against Beerus. It was not temporary. No indication whatsoever that it was temporary. They purposely went out of their way to give Vegeta a huge power-up to catch up to Goku.
He broke his limits, yes, just as he broke his limits against Jiren, but that was a temporary thing as well.
That was clearly temporary, yes. The "breaking limits" implies a temporary boost in this context, if not the fact that it was a rage boost induced limit-break. But we were given every reason to believe that the power Goku gained against Beerus wasn't temporary. It wouldn't even make any sense for it to be given a narrative focus for it to not mean anything. It's pure head canon to arbitrarily assume that it didn't persist. How do you think Base Goku/Vegeta fodderized SSJ3 Gotenks? Throughout the entirety of Z they didn't even surpass Namek Freeza, and now they make SSJ3 Gotenks look like a joke? Yeah, it sure as hell wasn't temporary.
The simple fact Goku still has to transform to go SSG for me confirms he does not contain the power of SSG within himself. He still has to transform to make use of it.
This is just a fundamental understanding of what exactly happened during BoG. SSG isn't some strange static level that Goku had stayed at as a SSJ during BoG that is indefinitely always the "level of SSG" that is constant and unchanging. Goku experienced, adapted to, and made his own, the power of Super Saiyan God at that partcicular time it isn't that it is forever at that level that SSG was at, and that SSG is this particular level. And it made the distinction that he was no longer using God Ki, and so, he had truly only retained the level of power itself, and nothing more. He literally just got a power-up. It's a simple series. There isn't this concept that the mechanics of Goku's forms changed to compensate for the fact that he had "SSG within himself." If the mechanics of the transformations had actually changed, and SSG was impossible to change into, or that the forms functioned differently in general, Vegeta wouldn't have been able to replicate what Goku did by just training with Whis for 6 months.
SSG however was never shown to be contained into base after BOG or ROF.
That was never the case so this is not news. Goku's Super Saiyan form was as strong as SSG, not his Base.
If Black could only match Goku Blue when going Rosé and using God-Ki, how on earth could he match Goku in the present time when he was supposedly not using God-Ki and Goku was using the power of a SSG he had "absorbed and kept"?
Neither were using God Ki. So I don't see how this is a counterpoint at all.
I tend to forgive Supers inconsistencies more than others but i see they are there. I don't prefer to use headcanon and ignore the fact Super has inconsistencies in the first place.
Correction, i do have my own headcanon to explain things, but i don't demand others to dictatorially follow me and demand this is the only valable argumentation to explain certain facts.
No reason to believe this is an inconsistency or that head canon is even required to rationalize it. It was explained very clearly what had happened, and we are given absolutely no reason to believe that anything had changed.

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:48 am

Base Goku from ToP had trouble with Universe 9 fighters, who were all weaklings by Beerus’ perspective. Of course, he isn’t nowhere near SSG’s level.

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by MKCSTEALTH » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:53 am

Well, there is the tidbit of Goku fighting a disguised Beerus after the U6/U7 tournament and hes clearly holding his own and even pushing Beerus to get excited about the fight.

I personally feel he is, based on that feat and with proper scaling. As for him getting hit and struggling against fodder universes:

A) hes suppressing himself so he doesn't run the risk of killing
B) the plot demanded it so he look cool

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by Mister_Popo » Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:47 pm

PFM18 wrote: This isn't a matter of the strength/speed correlating linearly that's entirely not the point. When I said "linear", it was in reference to describing the way that Dyspo was fighting, his movements/attacks were described to be linear and predictable. That is why Freeza was able to do so well, because Dyspo's movements were predictable. It was made very clear that this was not a result of power. No reason to believe Base Goku~Final Form Freeza can't be true.

If this is what you mean by 'linear and predictable', then in my opinion that does not mean much.
If True Form Freeza did so well against Dyspo because it was predictable, why would not the same argument go for Blue Goku?

Moreover, you totally contradict yourself here. You referred to Dyspos speed in your previous post that is not proportional to its strength. If Goku and Freeza their speed and power are proportional: they must therefore increase their strength to a comparable extent in order to be able to match Dyspo.

Goku needed Blue for that, Freeza his Real Form. From this we can conclude that base Goku = True Form Freeza side is still going ashore.
First of all, the burden of proof is on you to prove that it is temporary, not for somebody to disprove it being temporary. We are to assume it persists until told otherwise.

They used the time in between RoF and BoG to make it very clear that this wasn't temporary, though. The narrative establishes, that Goku in those 6 months that Vegeta was training with Whis, was working all the time for Chi-Chi and wasn't training very much. And yet, when Goku shows up he tells Vegeta that his ki is completely unrecognizable from what it was on Earth, and that when he sensed him he couldn't even tell it was him,(because his ki was so much larger) and yet, Goku says "you might even be stronger than me." If Vegeta got an astronomical power boost, how is it questionable that he is stronger than Goku when Goku had barely been training? Because he retained the power he gained in space against Beerus. It was not temporary. No indication whatsoever that it was temporary. They purposely went out of their way to give Vegeta a huge power-up to catch up to Goku.

This seems to be the reverse world. By not acknowledging that there are no inconsistencies at all, you create more inconsistencies than necessary. I think the "solution" or the "headcanon" that has to explain the most corrections is the least accurate, so most of the explanation is required. You have still not given me that explanation, while we have a whole bunch of characters now that are unbelievably OP for whom they actually represent storywise.

We can only conclude that Goku and Vegeta were only so strong in their baseform at the end of BOG and in ROF. So they trained with Beerus and Whis.
Then no more. This retelling is a direct derivative of the BOG and ROF films, which did not yet take into account the further continuation of Super. I honestly think that the writers suddenly realized how strong the characters had become, they have their baseforms and SSJ-forms tuned back to make the use of these forms acceptable against 'weaker' opponents such as Frost, non-Rosé Goku Black , Caulifla ...

That was clearly temporary, yes. The "breaking limits" implies a temporary boost in this context, if not the fact that it was a rage boost induced limit-break. But we were given every reason to believe that the power Goku gained against Beerus wasn't temporary. It wouldn't even make any sense for it to be given a narrative focus for it to not mean anything. It's pure head canon to arbitrarily assume that it didn't persist. How do you think Base Goku/Vegeta fodderized SSJ3 Gotenks? Throughout the entirety of Z they didn't even surpass Namek Freeza, and now they make SSJ3 Gotenks look like a joke? Yeah, it sure as hell wasn't temporary.

Goku or Vegeta that are stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks or SSJ3 Vegetto, that is an immense world of difference. The two do not even pass through the same door. I think they can be stronger in their base SSJ3 Gotenks, but SSJ3 Vegetto, that is a very different cup of tea.

Mutual sparring between Z-fighters has never been the ultimate reference to how strong the characters really are. See other examples such as 'Blue Goku vs Krillin' or 'Blue Goku who uses Kaioken against Gohan'.

How can we draw conclusions about the real power relations during a battle against a real enemy?

This is just a fundamental understanding of what exactly happened during BoG. SSG isn't some strange static level that Goku had stayed at as a SSJ during BoG that is indefinitely always the "level of SSG" that is constant and unchanging. Goku experienced, adapted to, and made his own, the power of Super Saiyan God at that partcicular time it isn't that it is forever at that level that SSG was at, and that SSG is this particular level. And it made the distinction that he was no longer using God Ki, and so, he had truly only retained the level of power itself, and nothing more. He literally just got a power-up. It's a simple series. There isn't this concept that the mechanics of Goku's forms changed to compensate for the fact that he had "SSG within himself." If the mechanics of the transformations had actually changed, and SSG was impossible to change into, or that the forms functioned differently in general, Vegeta wouldn't have been able to replicate what Goku did by just training with Whis for 6 months.

That was never the case so this is not news. Goku's Super Saiyan form was as strong as SSG, not his Base.

The fundamental understanding that seems lacking here is the repercution this has for the rest of the Super anime.
Even if SSJ Goku and not Base Goku = SSJG Goku a the end of BOG, this basically kinda means he has the strength of a SSJG in his baseform in further arcs, as he keeps improving, something that you've always defended yourself. There, yet again, you contradict.

This is almost the same as we discussed under point 2 'was the power jump temporary'? I think that with the re-introduction of SSJG it was made clear that the strong "second baseform" of ROF had actually 'evolved' into SSJG (= my interpretation of this retcon). Interpreting the retcon in this way has, in my view, less serious consequences. By sticking a multiplier over a multiplier, you distort the proportions that are there between the characters.

Neither were using God Ki. So I don't see how this is a counterpoint at all.

How on earth can Goku Black fight against Goku in his non-Rosé form if the latter is stronger than BOG SSG in ssj/ssj2?

No reason to believe this is an inconsistency or that head canon is even required to rationalize it. It was explained very clearly what had happened, and we are given absolutely no reason to believe that anything had changed.

There has been way too much discussion within the community concerning this subject to even consider there are no inconsistencies at all. Like i’ve stated before, the simple statement there are no inconsistencies, creates the most inconsistencies. It’s your headcanon and your entitled to have it, but please don’t spread it like it’s the be all end all DBS power scaling guide.

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by PFM18 » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:51 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:If this is what you mean by 'linear and predictable', then in my opinion that does not mean much.
If True Form Freeza did so well against Dyspo because it was predictable, why would not the same argument go for Blue Goku?

Moreover, you totally contradict yourself here. You referred to Dyspos speed in your previous post that is not proportional to its strength. If Goku and Freeza their speed and power are proportional: they must therefore increase their strength to a comparable extent in order to be able to match Dyspo.

Goku needed Blue for that, Freeza his Real Form. From this we can conclude that base Goku = True Form Freeza side is still going ashore.
That's just the way it was explained that Freeza was able to compete despite being outmatched. Because of Dyspo's unpredictability.

I didn't contradict myself at all. I never claimed anything other than Dyspo having disproportionally high speed for his power. Yeah, Goku and Freeza increase their power accordingly, but it might not entirely make sense that SSG Goku performed similarly, but that was the explanation that was given. Not perfect, just trying to incorporate something other than the "A>B therefore A wins" every single time.
We can only conclude that Goku and Vegeta were only so strong in their baseform at the end of BOG and in ROF. So they trained with Beerus and Whis.
Then no more. This retelling is a direct derivative of the BOG and ROF films, which did not yet take into account the further continuation of Super. I honestly think that the writers suddenly realized how strong the characters had become, they have their baseforms and SSJ-forms tuned back to make the use of these forms acceptable against 'weaker' opponents such as Frost, non-Rosé Goku Black , Caulifla ...
There's literally 0 evidence that this had suddenly changed after RoF. Disbelief is not an argument. Your speculation about the writer's intentions is not evidence.
Goku or Vegeta that are stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks or SSJ3 Vegetto, that is an immense world of difference. The two do not even pass through the same door. I think they can be stronger in their base SSJ3 Gotenks, but SSJ3 Vegetto, that is a very different cup of tea.

Mutual sparring between Z-fighters has never been the ultimate reference to how strong the characters really are. See other examples such as 'Blue Goku vs Krillin' or 'Blue Goku who uses Kaioken against Gohan'.

How can we draw conclusions about the real power relations during a battle against a real enemy?
They don't necessarily need to be stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto in Base. What makes you think that is a requirement of believing that there wasn't a retcon? Goku and Vegeta's SSJ forms being stronger than BoG SSG can be true while simultaneously their Base forms being weaker than SSJ3 Vegetto.

They weren't "mutually sparring" in the scenario I mentioned. They are fighting for Vegeta's life. It was shown clearly that Base Goku/Vegeta>>>>>>>>SSJ3 Gotenks.
The fundamental understanding that seems lacking here is the repercution this has for the rest of the Super anime.
Even if SSJ Goku and not Base Goku = SSJG Goku a the end of BOG, this basically kinda means he has the strength of a SSJG in his baseform in further arcs, as he keeps improving, something that you've always defended yourself. There, yet again, you contradict.

This is almost the same as we discussed under point 2 'was the power jump temporary'? I think that with the re-introduction of SSJG it was made clear that the strong "second baseform" of ROF had actually 'evolved' into SSJG (= my interpretation of this retcon). Interpreting the retcon in this way has, in my view, less serious consequences. By sticking a multiplier over a multiplier, you distort the proportions that are there between the characters.
His Base increased immensely in power as a direct result of the SSG-absorption. It doesn't mean SSG=Base. I don't see how I contradict myself there, but you don't really explain how I supposedly contradicted myself so I don't really even need to form a counterargument.

There was never a "second baseform" in the first place so it couldn't evolve into SSG. That was never hinted at in any way, either, that a Base form had evolved into SSG. Your "interpretation" isn't just an interpretation it is convoluted head canon used to rationalize something that doesn't need to be rationalized. You just don't like the implications and consequences, not that there is actually any evidence that this concept has been retconned. Again, disbelief is not an argument.
How on earth can Goku Black fight against Goku in his non-Rosé form if the latter is stronger than BOG SSG in ssj/ssj2?
Completely irrespective of that, how could Black compete in his Base with Goku's SSJ2? That question can be posed regardless of whether or not you believe that the God-absorption scene was retconned.
here has been way too much discussion within the community concerning this subject to even consider there are no inconsistencies at all. Like i’ve stated before, the simple statement there are no inconsistencies, creates the most inconsistencies. It’s your headcanon and your entitled to have it, but please don’t spread it like it’s the be all end all DBS power scaling guide.
I don't really care how much discussion there's been in the community on the subject. There's also been a lot of discussion about Kid Buu vs Super Buu and SSJ3 Goku vs Ultimate Gohan, and anybody educated on the topic knows the answer. This is the same way. It isn't head canon. I'm literally just using explicit dialogue and "feats" shown in the series very clearly. No head canon is needed.

I never claimed there weren't any inconsistencies. Just not any in this particular subject.

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by Mister_Popo » Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:31 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Mister_Popo wrote:If this is what you mean by 'linear and predictable', then in my opinion that does not mean much.
If True Form Freeza did so well against Dyspo because it was predictable, why would not the same argument go for Blue Goku?

Moreover, you totally contradict yourself here. You referred to Dyspos speed in your previous post that is not proportional to its strength. If Goku and Freeza their speed and power are proportional: they must therefore increase their strength to a comparable extent in order to be able to match Dyspo.

Goku needed Blue for that, Freeza his Real Form. From this we can conclude that base Goku = True Form Freeza side is still going ashore.
That's just the way it was explained that Freeza was able to compete despite being outmatched. Because of Dyspo's unpredictability.

I didn't contradict myself at all. I never claimed anything other than Dyspo having disproportionally high speed for his power. Yeah, Goku and Freeza increase their power accordingly, but it might not entirely make sense that SSG Goku performed similarly, but that was the explanation that was given. Not perfect, just trying to incorporate something other than the "A>B therefore A wins" every single time.


Why didn't it make sense SSG Goku performed similarly? It made perfect sense. That's exactly the power level Goku needed to match Dyspos speed.
He even needed Blue for a moment to land a proper hit on him.
This while True Form Freeza could hold his own against the same Dyspo.
Base Goku = True Form Freeza is completely out the question.


We can only conclude that Goku and Vegeta were only so strong in their baseform at the end of BOG and in ROF. So they trained with Beerus and Whis.
Then no more. This retelling is a direct derivative of the BOG and ROF films, which did not yet take into account the further continuation of Super. I honestly think that the writers suddenly realized how strong the characters had become, they have their baseforms and SSJ-forms tuned back to make the use of these forms acceptable against 'weaker' opponents such as Frost, non-Rosé Goku Black , Caulifla ...
There's literally 0 evidence that this had suddenly changed after RoF. Disbelief is not an argument. Your speculation about the writer's intentions is not evidence.

Yes, there is, because we have never seen a SSJ1 that's that strong again, since BOG.

Goku or Vegeta that are stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks or SSJ3 Vegetto, that is an immense world of difference. The two do not even pass through the same door. I think they can be stronger in their base SSJ3 Gotenks, but SSJ3 Vegetto, that is a very different cup of tea.

Mutual sparring between Z-fighters has never been the ultimate reference to how strong the characters really are. See other examples such as 'Blue Goku vs Krillin' or 'Blue Goku who uses Kaioken against Gohan'.

How can we draw conclusions about the real power relations during a battle against a real enemy?
They don't necessarily need to be stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto in Base. What makes you think that is a requirement of believing that there wasn't a retcon? Goku and Vegeta's SSJ forms being stronger than BoG SSG can be true while simultaneously their Base forms being weaker than SSJ3 Vegetto.

They weren't "mutually sparring" in the scenario I mentioned. They are fighting for Vegeta's life. It was shown clearly that Base Goku/Vegeta>>>>>>>>SSJ3 Gotenks.
The fundamental understanding that seems lacking here is the repercution this has for the rest of the Super anime.
Even if SSJ Goku and not Base Goku = SSJG Goku a the end of BOG, this basically kinda means he has the strength of a SSJG in his baseform in further arcs, as he keeps improving, something that you've always defended yourself. There, yet again, you contradict.

This is almost the same as we discussed under point 2 'was the power jump temporary'? I think that with the re-introduction of SSJG it was made clear that the strong "second baseform" of ROF had actually 'evolved' into SSJG (= my interpretation of this retcon). Interpreting the retcon in this way has, in my view, less serious consequences. By sticking a multiplier over a multiplier, you distort the proportions that are there between the characters.
His Base increased immensely in power as a direct result of the SSG-absorption. It doesn't mean SSG=Base. I don't see how I contradict myself there, but you don't really explain how I supposedly contradicted myself so I don't really even need to form a counterargument.

This thread is about base Goku TOP power level. Suggesting they became as strong as SSG in SSJ1, means they probably have surpassed both BOG SSG Goku and SSJ3 Vegetto whilst reaching TOP. The two don't necessary mean the same just after BOG, right, but they have easily become 50 times stronger by now. Your suggestion has a tendency to conflict with base form (TOP) that can't be stronger than ritual SSG. And if this would be the case anyways, he is not far off right now. Honestly, against Broly, he should have surpassed that level in baseform, and probably alreading during TOP, according to your theory.

There was never a "second baseform" in the first place so it couldn't evolve into SSG. That was never hinted at in any way, either, that a Base form had evolved into SSG. Your "interpretation" isn't just an interpretation it is convoluted head canon used to rationalize something that doesn't need to be rationalized.

At least i have no troubles adminitting it's headcanon in order to explain a major inconsistency, it's not a wormhole to create even more inconsistencies.

You just don't like the implications and consequences, not that there is actually any evidence that this concept has been retconned. Again, disbelief is not an argument.
How on earth can Goku Black fight against Goku in his non-Rosé form if the latter is stronger than BOG SSG in ssj/ssj2?
Completely irrespective of that, how could Black compete in his Base with Goku's SSJ2? That question can be posed regardless of whether or not you believe that the God-absorption scene was retconned.

Future Trunks didn't do that bad against Black in the future. Considering the fact Goku is still stronger, that pretty much settles it without having to suggest Goku surpassed BOG SSG Goku during his fight with Black in the present time.
here has been way too much discussion within the community concerning this subject to even consider there are no inconsistencies at all. Like i’ve stated before, the simple statement there are no inconsistencies, creates the most inconsistencies. It’s your headcanon and your entitled to have it, but please don’t spread it like it’s the be all end all DBS power scaling guide.
I don't really care how much discussion there's been in the community on the subject. There's also been a lot of discussion about Kid Buu vs Super Buu and SSJ3 Goku vs Ultimate Gohan, and anybody educated on the topic knows the answer. This is the same way. It isn't head canon. I'm literally just using explicit dialogue and "feats" shown in the series very clearly. No head canon is needed.

I never claimed there weren't any inconsistencies. Just not any in this particular subject.
A holy crusade for SSJ Goku that's >= BOG SSG Goku creates even more dilemmas, there are too many already without that concept.

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by Saturnine » Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:43 am

Yeah, just because you're able to convince yourself that the God power was absorbed and SSj Goku is now God level with no inconsistencies ever being present, doesn't mean there are no inconsistencies. It's quite clear there are quite many, due to how hastily the creators decided to go back on axing the traditional SSj forms for Goku and Vegeta.

Look, it's just as easy for me to think FPSSj in the manga is a bigger multiplier than say, Grade 2. There is nothing that contradicts it, quite to the contrary in fact. But not everyone thinks that, and I accept that. It all depends on how much you value feats over statements or vice versa, how much you can read between the lines, and how much you trust supplementary material over what you see.

You can't blame people for not being convinced that Goku is still like he was against RoF Freeza in certain portrayals after that. Because it damn well looks like he isn't in plenty of them, and you need to acknowledge that, rather than putting it down to some ridiculous strawmen such as "people just don't want Goku to be that strong" or whatever.

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by PFM18 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:40 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:Why didn't it make sense SSG Goku performed similarly? It made perfect sense. That's exactly the power level Goku needed to match Dyspos speed.
He even needed Blue for a moment to land a proper hit on him.
This while True Form Freeza could hold his own against the same Dyspo.
Base Goku = True Form Freeza is completely out the question.
It doesn't make sense that Final Form Freeza and SSG Goku performed similarly because it doesn't align with anything else. It happened because the rationalization is that Freeza was able to predict Dyspo's linear movements; that's what he said, and that was the explanation given. It is a weak one, but it is one. Freeza needed Golden to beat Cabba. If he was SSG level in his Final Form, he wouldn't have NEEDED Golden. He even complained that he had to use Golden and waste stamina. The SSG~Final Form Freeza "implication" is a power scaling outlier produced by a poor explanation. Final Form Freeza~Base Goku can very easily still hold true based on the events we see, and the Jiren fight corroborates it if anything.
Yes, there is, because we have never seen a SSJ1 that's that strong again, since BOG.
That's entirely arbitrary. What do you expect? Them to say "Wow, Goku as a Super Saiyan you're stronger than you were as a Super Saiyan against Beerus!" Something so oddly specific is very strange. We have every reason to believe that he retained that power. Goku dominated SSJ3 Gotenks, was able to entertain Beerus fighting him in Base, and was immensely impressed with Buu for getting strong enough to even compete with his Base form. This implies that prior to Buu's training, there was a huge gap between Goku's Base and Buu. That level of power in his Base form can only logically exist if he retained that power he had against Beerus. We have several fights that corroborate the idea, and absolutely none that directly contradict SSJ Goku>BoG SSG>
This thread is about base Goku TOP power level. Suggesting they became as strong as SSG in SSJ1, means they probably have surpassed both BOG SSG Goku and SSJ3 Vegetto whilst reaching TOP. The two don't necessary mean the same just after BOG, right, but they have easily become 50 times stronger by now. Your suggestion has a tendency to conflict with base form (TOP) that can't be stronger than ritual SSG. And if this would be the case anyways, he is not far off right now. Honestly, against Broly, he should have surpassed that level in baseform, and probably alreading during TOP, according to your theory.
I don't see how this probably means that they have surpassed BoG SSG Goku in Base. I don't think they've easily gotten 50x stronger since then, at all. I have them as being 30x stronger by the beginning of the ToP, personally. But even if they did, it contradicts nothing other than your preferences for the power scaling. The super strong Base/SSJ forms of Goku and Vegeta have stayed consistent throughout, and we really have no reason to believe that it has changed.
At least i have no troubles adminitting it's headcanon in order to explain a major inconsistency, it's not a wormhole to create even more inconsistencies.
You shouldn't have any problem admitting that it is head canon. Because it is headcanon. I'm just going by explicit statements and events within the show. There's really nothing else to it, no speculation, and it is very well supported by the material itself. It really doesn't fit the definition of head canon at all.
Future Trunks didn't do that bad against Black in the future. Considering the fact Goku is still stronger, that pretty much settles it without having to suggest Goku surpassed BOG SSG Goku during his fight with Black in the present time.
How does this in any way disprove BoG SSG<SSJ Goku? Goku can be that strong without it contradicting anything.
A holy crusade for SSJ Goku that's >= BOG SSG Goku creates even more dilemmas, there are too many already without that concept.
You have yet to bring to light anything valid that creates an inconsistency by the premise of SSJ Goku>= SSG Goku, let alone it creating more inconsistencies than your head canon.
Saturnine wrote: Yeah, just because you're able to convince yourself that the God power was absorbed and SSj Goku is now God level with no inconsistencies ever being present, doesn't mean there are no inconsistencies. It's quite clear there are quite many, due to how hastily the creators decided to go back on axing the traditional SSj forms for Goku and Vegeta.
There's no real convincing involved. I didn't have to convince myself, the show explicitly says it, and then we are given absolutely no reason to believe that this had changed. They only tried to axe the traditional SSJ forms in the RoF movie, and no indication of that in Super.
Look, it's just as easy for me to think FPSSj in the manga is a bigger multiplier than say, Grade 2. There is nothing that contradicts it, quite to the contrary in fact. But not everyone thinks that, and I accept that. It all depends on how much you value feats over statements or vice versa, how much you can read between the lines, and how much you trust supplementary material over what you see.
See, that isn't even mildly analogous to this at all. It was never explicitly stated that FPSSJ has a higher multiplier than Grade 2, and so it would be completely nonsensical for you to blame other people for not accepting your head canon. It was explicitly stated, by Beerus AND Goku, and then shown in the fight itself, that SSJ>=BoG SSG, so there's absolutely no head canon involved. Then, we are given no reason to believe this has changed, so we continue to believe it.
You can't blame people for not being convinced that Goku is still like he was against RoF Freeza in certain portrayals after that. Because it damn well looks like he isn't in plenty of them, and you need to acknowledge that, rather than putting it down to some ridiculous strawmen such as "people just don't want Goku to be that strong" or whatever.
It's not really a strawman to say that. People's argument is often not actually supported by anything but rather they just don't like the idea of it so they come up with all kinds of strange head canon and rationalizations to attempt to discredit this premise that they dislike.

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by Saturnine » Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:39 am

PFM18 wrote: There's no real convincing involved. I didn't have to convince myself, the show explicitly says it, and then we are given absolutely no reason to believe that this had changed. They only tried to axe the traditional SSJ forms in the RoF movie, and no indication of that in Super.
Then they could have had Goku or Vegeta use the traditional SSj form in the RoF portion of the anime to better indicate their intentions. Instead, they went with SBG, which was - just like in the movie - intended to be equivalent to SSjG in power, followed only by SSj Blue. When the U6 tournament came later and regular SSj for Goku and Vegeta returned, people were genuinely puzzled.
See, that isn't even mildly analogous to this at all. It was never explicitly stated that FPSSJ has a higher multiplier than Grade 2, and so it would be completely nonsensical for you to blame other people for not accepting your head canon.
But it was explicitly shown, by both Goku and Gohan not only vastly outperforming Grade 2, but also Grade 3 after a similar amount of training. It stands to reason that this state let them access more power, and I don't need handholding in the form of statements in order to see that. Some people rationalize this by saying unproven and speculative things like "once you master SSj, your base power rises a huge deal automatically just so the multi can stay 50x", which is quite honestly much less sensible.

Also, you're really quick to accuse others of following "headcanon"
It was explicitly stated, by Beerus AND Goku, and then shown in the fight itself, that SSJ>=BoG SSG, so there's absolutely no head canon involved. Then, we are given no reason to believe this has changed, so we I continue to believe it.
FTFY. In your view we are given no reason to believe this has changed, in the view of many others we aren't. In that battle indeed, it held true, but afterwards it's really quite muddy in the anime. Your entire line of argumentation also hinges on your fixation on the belief that SSj makes such a huge difference here - which in and of itself cannot be accepted as absolute just like that. We later find out that to multiply a godly base by any factor, SSj has to be Blue. Therefore, how can you be so sure that the godly power-up is not for example a flat increase, which regular SSj doesn't even affect? SSj God was supposed to be a realm of power beyond imagination, remember? What if regular SSj only multiplies Goku's own pre-godly Ki, while the godly component remains the same? For instance, SSj Goku could be 1, base Goku could be 0,02, but the absorbed god ki could be 999, making base Goku 999,002, and SSj Goku 1000. I'm not saying it's necessarily like that, but you can't dismiss it's possible. Suggesting that Goku's base form absorbed only 1/50th of his SSj God power seems afwully arbitrary to me too, not to mention it directly casts into doubt the very point of SSj Blue's existence, which is "a Saiyan who has absorbed the power of SSj God and transforms himself into SSj". You're trying to attribute the very same description to regular SSj, while also conveniently lowering the actual amount of power absorbed by 50x to match your preconception.
It's not really a strawman to say that. People's argument is often not actually supported by anything but rather they just don't like the idea of it so they come up with all kinds of strange head canon and rationalizations to attempt to discredit this premise that they dislike.
Yeah, and just like that I could say that you don't like the idea of base Cabba or Future Trunks being much weaker than SSj3 Gotenks, unlike your suggested god-absorbed base level for Goku and Vegeta, whom they are shown to match in the anime. Not to mention your refusal to look out of universe, like the manga for example, where it's made quite clear that base is base, and only SSjG starts touching the god tier. Why do you think Toyotaro brought SSjG back so quickly, unlike the anime? Because he wrote those arcs after they aired in the anime - so he was able to see the confusing mess the writers forced themselves into, by trying to incorporate RoF into a serialized narrative while backing out of the godly base -> SSj Blue simplified transformation scheme established there. Thus he avoided their mistakes and attempted to keep things consistent. Insisting that manga continuity and anime continuity Vegeta and Goku differ so much in power between each other is nothing more than trying to rationalize and legitimize the writers' poor handling of power scaling - even though we've got good reasons to believe the characters' powers are intended to be roughly equal in both media. I certainly don't think Toriyama's like "I'll write anime Goku being 500x stronger than manga goku just for the hell of it", lol

Also, keeping the SBG concept (or "godly ki-absorbed base in any form) while also having the SSjG form accessible creates the problem of perpetual absorptions. I know Goku's first achievement of this form was via a ritual, but Vegeta has it too, so if both of them got their base power increased by absorbing the form, and yet can still use it, then couldn't they theoretically keep absorbing the SSjG power into base indefinitely, and then just transforming again and repeating the process? Even if it's 1/50 in base like you suggest, if SSjG is a multiplier, this could theoretically go on indefinitely. We know it can't and it hasn't, and it's reasonable to assume that the writers noticed this pitfall too - so whenever SSjG is present, SBG is conveniently forgotten. And that's really the best thing the writers could have done - albeit still sloppy and poor damage control at best - because what could they have done otherwise? Statements like "we used to access SSj God power without transforming, but we don't really do that much anymore"? That would be just awkward.

As best as we know, in the anime we have godly base Goku and Vegeta, with the full power of SSj God, in the following instances: SBG, Potaufeu arc, Goku vs Beerus as Monaka, arguably base Goku vs Hit. All other appearances seem as though Goku and Vegeta are only stronger than their Buu arc selves by a logical amount that would stem from their trainings, which could be up to several times perhaps - the godly realm is reserved for the SSj God form again, which matches the manga.
That's entirely arbitrary. What do you expect? Them to say "Wow, Goku as a Super Saiyan you're stronger than you were as a Super Saiyan against Beerus!" Something so oddly specific is very strange.
Here you're seeming awfully self-contradicting for someone who needs explicit statements to feel safe about believing in something. What happened to actually seeing what happens and inferring stuff from that?

I might have an example from the anime for you:

If base Cabba = base Vegeta > SSj3 Gotenks, then Goku/Vegeta fought Freeza equally in base back in RoF, but Cabba required SSj2 to only slightly pressure Freeza in the ToP. Freeza was supposed to have become stronger in hell indeed, but do you think it was several tens of times just from meditating?

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by PFM18 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:43 pm

Saturnine wrote:Then they could have had Goku or Vegeta use the traditional SSj form in the RoF portion of the anime to better indicate their intentions. Instead, they went with SBG, which was - just like in the movie - intended to be equivalent to SSjG in power, followed only by SSj Blue. When the U6 tournament came later and regular SSj for Goku and Vegeta returned, people were genuinely puzzled.
The distinction was made clear when Goku was sensed in Base, and then when he went SSB, everybody commented that he could no longer be sensed because he has God Ki. Neither of these scenes/pieces of dialogue happen in the anime. I'd say that makes a pretty clear distinction and display of their intentions, if you completely change two scenes that didn't exist in the movie and clearly contradict what happened in the movie. And, in the anime, we get absolutely no indication that his "SBG" was equivalent to SSG, so that shouldn't really confuse anyone either. The only reason people came to that conclusion, and then were confused in the U6 arc, was because of their preconceived notions and not because of any implications within the series itself.
But it was explicitly shown, by both Goku and Gohan not only vastly outperforming Grade 2, but also Grade 3 after a similar amount of training. It stands to reason that this state let them access more power, and I don't need handholding in the form of statements in order to see that. Some people rationalize this by saying unproven and speculative things like "once you master SSj, your base power rises a huge deal automatically just so the multi can stay 50x", which is quite honestly much less sensible.
I don't see how a statement verifying it would constitute "handholding", there. The focus of the form and all of the dialogue surrounding the form has absolutely nothing to do with increasing their power but rather reducing the strain on their body. The downfall of Trunks/Vegeta was focusing on just power, and so Goku achieving a form that just blatantly yields more power wouldn't kind of hold up narratively, given he wasn't at all focusing on power itself. I think it's a natural assumption to conclude that they are stronger than Grade 2 simply because of their increased Base forms.

Either way, what separates this, and what we see in Super, is that one is supported by multiple explicit statements AND what is explicitly shown in their performance.
FTFY. In your view we are given no reason to believe this has changed, in the view of many others we aren't. In that battle indeed, it held true, but afterwards it's really quite muddy in the anime. Your entire line of argumentation also hinges on your fixation on the belief that SSj makes such a huge difference here - which in and of itself cannot be accepted as absolute just like that. We later find out that to multiply a godly base by any factor, SSj has to be Blue. Therefore, how can you be so sure that the godly power-up is not for example a flat increase, which regular SSj doesn't even affect? SSj God was supposed to be a realm of power beyond imagination, remember? What if regular SSj only multiplies Goku's own pre-godly Ki, while the godly component remains the same? For instance, SSj Goku could be 1, base Goku could be 0,02, but the absorbed god ki could be 999, making base Goku 999,002, and SSj Goku 1000. I'm not saying it's necessarily like that, but you can't dismiss it's possible. Suggesting that Goku's base form absorbed only 1/50th of his SSj God power seems afwully arbitrary to me too, not to mention it directly casts into doubt the very point of SSj Blue's existence, which is "a Saiyan who has absorbed the power of SSj God and transforms himself into SSj". You're trying to attribute the very same description to regular SSj, while also conveniently lowering the actual amount of power absorbed by 50x to match your preconception.
There's no precedent for a flat increase, nor are we given a reason to believe the mechanics of their transformations and the associated multipliers were changed. Especially given that Vegeta achieved the same amount of power without absorbing SSG, and his forms still functioned the same way as Goku. This would hold more water if Vegeta didn't just get the same power without doing the same thing, but since he did, and both of Goku/Vegeta's forms function the same way as each other, we are left to assume that Goku's "absorption" literally just functioned as a power boost and didn't do anything else; his normal forms still work the same, but he's just way stronger.

It isn't a matter of Goku "absorbing only 1/50th of his SSG power." He is as strong as SSG as a SSJ, and that is true because he had adapted to that level of a power, as a SSJ. As a SSJ, he retains all of that power, and there's nothing arbitrary about that. Trying to standardize this absorption quantity to Goku's Base form is more arbitrary, if anything. The way that SSB was described, it still fits the description, the only reason things appear differently is because Goku can't use God Ki in Base in Super. Both of them especially describe it as God Ki+SSJ, so we should conclude SSG is a pre-requisite to SSB, and he is accessing both, and that's how he uses SSB. (Corroborated by Vegeta using SSG in the movie and the original name of the form being "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan." Normal SSJ does not fit the same description, and that isn't what I conveniently conclude to fit my preconceptions, considering that isn't what I concluded at all.
Yeah, and just like that I could say that you don't like the idea of base Cabba or Future Trunks being much weaker than SSj3 Gotenks, unlike your suggested god-absorbed base level for Goku and Vegeta, whom they are shown to match in the anime. Not to mention your refusal to look out of universe, like the manga for example, where it's made quite clear that base is base, and only SSjG starts touching the god tier. Why do you think Toyotaro brought SSjG back so quickly, unlike the anime? Because he wrote those arcs after they aired in the anime - so he was able to see the confusing mess the writers forced themselves into, by trying to incorporate RoF into a serialized narrative while backing out of the godly base -> SSj Blue simplified transformation scheme established there. Thus he avoided their mistakes and attempted to keep things consistent. Insisting that manga continuity and anime continuity Vegeta and Goku differ so much in power between each other is nothing more than trying to rationalize and legitimize the writers' poor handling of power scaling - even though we've got good reasons to believe the characters' powers are intended to be roughly equal in both media. I certainly don't think Toriyama's like "I'll write anime Goku being 500x stronger than manga goku just for the hell of it", lol
I guess that's fair, because you could hypothetically conclude the same about my beliefs being related to what I want to be true. I mean, you don't know that for certain, but neither do I know for certain about you or anyone else.

Why would I look out of Universe or to the manga? Our evidence should be limited to what is in the anime continuity, when talking about the anime continuity, and not speculating about their intentions or trying to reconcile any differences between them as being an error on the one of their parts. If it stays consistent, with it's portrayal of their super strong Base forms, I don't see why I should be calling it "poor handling" or "their mistakes." Why should I assume that Goku/Vegeta's Base power being so different between the anime and manga is a problem? RoF Base Goku vs Freeza, Base Goku vs Monaka suit Beerus, Base Vegeta vs SSJ3 Gotenks, and Base Goku vs Buu(post-training) are ALL exempt from the manga, all scenes where their Base form seems extremely powerful. I don't think that is a very convenient coincidence.
Also, keeping the SBG concept (or "godly ki-absorbed base in any form) while also having the SSjG form accessible creates the problem of perpetual absorptions. I know Goku's first achievement of this form was via a ritual, but Vegeta has it too, so if both of them got their base power increased by absorbing the form, and yet can still use it, then couldn't they theoretically keep absorbing the SSjG power into base indefinitely, and then just transforming again and repeating the process? Even if it's 1/50 in base like you suggest, if SSjG is a multiplier, this could theoretically go on indefinitely. We know it can't and it hasn't, and it's reasonable to assume that the writers noticed this pitfall too - so whenever SSjG is present, SBG is conveniently forgotten. And that's really the best thing the writers could have done - albeit still sloppy and poor damage control at best - because what could they have done otherwise? Statements like "we used to access SSj God power without transforming, but we don't really do that much anymore"? That would be just awkward.
That is fair, but the circumstances of Goku's original absorption were never replicated, though. Goku never had the ritual, reached a power he never thought possible, and then adapted to it. He just learned how to access it on his own without the ritual, and Vegeta explicitly did NOT have the ritual at any point. So while this was never explicitly stated it's a fair assumption to say it only happens during a ritual-achieved SSG. But yes, I can definitely see how people could see perpetual absorptions as a problem.
As best as we know, in the anime we have godly base Goku and Vegeta, with the full power of SSj God, in the following instances: SBG, Potaufeu arc, Goku vs Beerus as Monaka, arguably base Goku vs Hit. All other appearances seem as though Goku and Vegeta are only stronger than their Buu arc selves by a logical amount that would stem from their trainings, which could be up to several times perhaps - the godly realm is reserved for the SSj God form again, which matches the manga.
But the anime gives us no reason to believe their Base form in those scenes is somehow different from their normal Base form. And what are these "all other appearances" you are even referring to? When are they even portrayed as being not that strong? MAYBE against Basil, but that's the only example and a weak one at that. The anime has no obligation to match the manga in this respect.
Here you're seeming awfully self-contradicting for someone who needs explicit statements to feel safe about believing in something. What happened to actually seeing what happens and inferring stuff from that?
That was exactly my point. I see actually see what happens very clearly, and so I don't need an explicit statement. We don't need dialogue to just confirm something that we already know. I DO need an explicit statement, to conclude a huge, over-arching concept change about the entirety of the power scaling structure in the series that is indicated by very little if anything else.
f base Cabba = base Vegeta > SSj3 Gotenks, then Goku/Vegeta fought Freeza equally in base back in RoF, but Cabba required SSj2 to only slightly pressure Freeza in the ToP. Freeza was supposed to have become stronger in hell indeed, but do you think it was several tens of times just from meditating?


and Freeza still needs his Golden form to beat Cabba. It isn't as though Freeza beat him in his Final Form. And Final Form Freeza getting dozens of times stronger is already indicated by the fact that he caught up to Goku who got 10x stronger shown from his performance against hit, and the fact that it was stated that ToP Final Form Freeza>Frost, when we know that Final Form Freeza was even with Base Goku in RoF but Frost forced Goku to use SSJ and seemed even with Base Goku if not stronger, without even using his Final Form yet.

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:37 am

Those powerlevel figures illustrate the difference between the normal form and Super Saiyan God.

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by PFM18 » Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:31 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:Those powerlevel figures illustrate the difference between the normal form and Super Saiyan God.

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I don't see how those hold any real merit. And you can't even or can barely see the power figure for Goku in the first picture

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:15 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:Those powerlevel figures illustrate the difference between the normal form and Super Saiyan God.

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I don't see how those hold any real merit. And you can't even or can barely see the power figure for Goku in the first picture
Product distributed by Bandai, who has rights over Dragon Ball’s merchandise. It’s as official as it can be. In the first picture, Goku has 7,700. I don’t think there is a perfect consistent powerscalling behind this, but I think you can get the idea of how they compare.

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by Bergamo » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:01 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:Those powerlevel figures illustrate the difference between the normal form and Super Saiyan God.

Battle of Gods
DBS: Broly
I don't see how those hold any real merit. And you can't even or can barely see the power figure for Goku in the first picture
Product distributed by Bandai, who has rights over Dragon Ball’s merchandise. It’s as official as it can be. In the first picture, Goku has 7,700. I don’t think there is a perfect consistent powerscalling behind this, but I think you can get the idea of how they compare.
Do you really think that Bardock and Gine are over 50 percent of base Goku's power, because that would put them at at least Buy saga SS3 tier?
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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:16 pm

Bergamo wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
I don't see how those hold any real merit. And you can't even or can barely see the power figure for Goku in the first picture
Product distributed by Bandai, who has rights over Dragon Ball’s merchandise. It’s as official as it can be. In the first picture, Goku has 7,700. I don’t think there is a perfect consistent powerscalling behind this, but I think you can get the idea of how they compare.
Do you really think that Bardock and Gine are over 50 percent of base Goku's power, because that would put them at at least Buy saga SS3 tier?
I don’t think it’s supposed to be interpreted like that. It’s just to give you the idea about who is stronger than who.

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by Bergamo » Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:28 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Bergamo wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote: Product distributed by Bandai, who has rights over Dragon Ball’s merchandise. It’s as official as it can be. In the first picture, Goku has 7,700. I don’t think there is a perfect consistent powerscalling behind this, but I think you can get the idea of how they compare.
Do you really think that Bardock and Gine are over 50 percent of base Goku's power, because that would put them at at least Buy saga SS3 tier?
I don’t think it’s supposed to be interpreted like that. It’s just to give you the idea about who is stronger than who.
Either way, Post-ToP SSG Goku being equal to BoG SSG Goku is demonstrably false.
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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by PFM18 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:47 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:Those powerlevel figures illustrate the difference between the normal form and Super Saiyan God.

Battle of Gods
DBS: Broly
I don't see how those hold any real merit. And you can't even or can barely see the power figure for Goku in the first picture
Product distributed by Bandai, who has rights over Dragon Ball’s merchandise. It’s as official as it can be. In the first picture, Goku has 7,700. I don’t think there is a perfect consistent powerscalling behind this, but I think you can get the idea of how they compare.
Sure, it's official, but it means nothing. It's just a little sticker thing. It can be used to get an idea of things, but it it's pretty invalid in discussions like this.
Bergamo wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:
Bergamo wrote: Do you really think that Bardock and Gine are over 50 percent of base Goku's power, because that would put them at at least Buy saga SS3 tier?
I don’t think it’s supposed to be interpreted like that. It’s just to give you the idea about who is stronger than who.
Either way, Post-ToP SSG Goku being equal to BoG SSG Goku is demonstrably false.
Right. It shows both to be 7,700 and that's absolutely insane. Goku has gotten way stronger in those couple years and the 5 arcs in between.

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