Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

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Desassina
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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by Desassina » Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:46 am

In the Battle of Gods arc, Goku was burning with the power of Super Saiyan God, and he transformed before it ran out. Then, he went back to being himself so that Super Saiyan was still below the God one, and the Blue transformation took its place as the main one. Before Resurrection of F, Toriyama wanted the simplest form to be used more often, as it would be later evidenced by Goku Black in the manga, so consider Super Saiyan the prototype of Blue in Battle of Gods, because the concept was nearly the same.
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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:45 am

Bergamo wrote:Post-ToP SSG Goku being equal to BoG SSG Goku is demonstrably false.
There are other batlantly errors, but I don’t think this should really be the focus. It’s just to give you the idea that SSG is in a range higher than the base forms.
PFM18 wrote:Sure, it's official, but it means nothing. It's just a little sticker thing. It can be used to get an idea of things, but it it's pretty invalid in discussions like this.
An official work will never hold less value than a fan-work. As enlightened as you may be, these are one of official sources for powerlevel discussions, and they can be discussed as much as any other work that has Dragon Ball in its name.

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by Saturnine » Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:28 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
PFM18 wrote:Sure, it's official, but it means nothing. It's just a little sticker thing. It can be used to get an idea of things, but it it's pretty invalid in discussions like this.
An official work will never hold less value than a fan-work. As enlightened as you may be, these are one of official sources for powerlevel discussions, and they can be discussed as much as any other work that has Dragon Ball in its name.
Come on man, you can't honestly be defending some ridiculous stickers demonstrating some simplified game mechanics as a reasonable indicator of powerlevel relations xD

Especially since these stickers have SSj God like 1,5x stronger than base, which is not something any sane DB fan ever conceived with a straight face.

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:11 pm

Saturnine wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:
PFM18 wrote:Sure, it's official, but it means nothing. It's just a little sticker thing. It can be used to get an idea of things, but it it's pretty invalid in discussions like this.
An official work will never hold less value than a fan-work. As enlightened as you may be, these are one of official sources for powerlevel discussions, and they can be discussed as much as any other work that has Dragon Ball in its name.
Come on man, you can't honestly be defending some ridiculous stickers demonstrating some simplified game mechanics as a reasonable indicator of powerlevel relations xD

Especially since these stickers have SSj God like 1,5x stronger than base, which is not something any sane DB fan ever conceived with a straight face.
I don’t need to defend it. The Dragon Ball rightholders are just showing how they interpret their stuff, which we can agree or not. I honestly don’t care which multiply SSG has, but I don’t think they are really trying to pass me the idea they are following a consistent powerscalling. See for example SSB with kaioken that has 8,800 while SSB has around 7,500~8,800.

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by Saturnine » Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:24 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Saturnine wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:
An official work will never hold less value than a fan-work. As enlightened as you may be, these are one of official sources for powerlevel discussions, and they can be discussed as much as any other work that has Dragon Ball in its name.
Come on man, you can't honestly be defending some ridiculous stickers demonstrating some simplified game mechanics as a reasonable indicator of powerlevel relations xD

Especially since these stickers have SSj God like 1,5x stronger than base, which is not something any sane DB fan ever conceived with a straight face.
I don’t need to defend it. The Dragon Ball rightholders are just showing how they interpret their stuff, which we can agree or not. I honestly don’t care which multiply SSG has, but I don’t think they are really trying to pass me the idea they are following a consistent powerscalling. See for example SSB with kaioken that has 8,800 while SSB has around 7,500~8,800.
And I think you're making an assumption here. Kaioken was stated and shown multiple times in the manga and show itself to mutliply the power by folds. Game mechanics for some card game that uses a linear scale of much smaller numbers are not, and are not meant to be, translatable to the manga and the show. I'm honestly shocked that something like this not clear.

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:45 pm

Saturnine wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:
Saturnine wrote: Come on man, you can't honestly be defending some ridiculous stickers demonstrating some simplified game mechanics as a reasonable indicator of powerlevel relations xD

Especially since these stickers have SSj God like 1,5x stronger than base, which is not something any sane DB fan ever conceived with a straight face.
I don’t need to defend it. The Dragon Ball rightholders are just showing how they interpret their stuff, which we can agree or not. I honestly don’t care which multiply SSG has, but I don’t think they are really trying to pass me the idea they are following a consistent powerscalling. See for example SSB with kaioken that has 8,800 while SSB has around 7,500~8,800.
And I think you're making an assumption here. Kaioken was stated and shown multiple times in the manga and show itself to mutliply the power by folds. Game mechanics for some card game that uses a linear scale of much smaller numbers are not, and are not meant to be, translatable to the manga and the show. I'm honestly shocked that something like this not clear.
Clarify in which part of my post I said kaioken doesn’t follow multipliers. You are taking these stickers way too seriously. It’s very clear they aren’t meant to represent the end all be all of powerlevels. Like Daizenshuu, Super Exciting Guides, all this stuff is purely guesswork, which tries or not to follow the rules established by the lore. The mechanic isn’t important, the figures just represent which individual/pair they think is stronger. After analizing some of those sets, I and many others already idenfied errors.

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by PFM18 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:57 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:An official work will never hold less value than a fan-work. As enlightened as you may be, these are one of official sources for powerlevel discussions, and they can be discussed as much as any other work that has Dragon Ball in its name.
The "official" tag alone doesnt necessarily make something reasonable. Look at this official comment that SSJ3 Goku=Buuhan which is completely asinine.

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:29 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:An official work will never hold less value than a fan-work. As enlightened as you may be, these are one of official sources for powerlevel discussions, and they can be discussed as much as any other work that has Dragon Ball in its name.
The "official" tag alone doesnt necessarily make something reasonable. Look at this official comment that SSJ3 Goku=Buuhan which is completely asinine.
Reasonable is different than valid. The point is that their interpretation has more weight than ours. You can disagree with it, but not claim it is invalid, it wouldn’t make any sense.

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by PFM18 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:45 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:An official work will never hold less value than a fan-work. As enlightened as you may be, these are one of official sources for powerlevel discussions, and they can be discussed as much as any other work that has Dragon Ball in its name.
The "official" tag alone doesnt necessarily make something reasonable. Look at this official comment that SSJ3 Goku=Buuhan which is completely asinine.
Reasonable is different than valid. The point is that their interpretation has more weight than ours. You can disagree with it, but not claim it is invalid, it wouldn’t make any sense.
The entire thing is a disaster. And no, I wouldn't consider some stickers an especially valid source for power level discussion.

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:58 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:
PFM18 wrote: The "official" tag alone doesnt necessarily make something reasonable. Look at this official comment that SSJ3 Goku=Buuhan which is completely asinine.
Reasonable is different than valid. The point is that their interpretation has more weight than ours. You can disagree with it, but not claim it is invalid, it wouldn’t make any sense.
The entire thing is a disaster. And no, I wouldn't consider some stickers an especially valid source for power level discussion.
If you think they aren’t valid, try to contact Bandai or Shueisha and see what they will reply. Just saying you won’t consider them valid won’t change anything.

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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by Bergamo » Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:14 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote: Reasonable is different than valid. The point is that their interpretation has more weight than ours. You can disagree with it, but not claim it is invalid, it wouldn’t make any sense.
The entire thing is a disaster. And no, I wouldn't consider some stickers an especially valid source for power level discussion.
If you think they aren’t valid, try to contact Bandai or Shueisha and see what they will reply. Just saying you won’t consider them valid won’t change anything.
Official or not, seeing as how these stickers factually cannot coincide with the manga or anime, how is this convincing evidence of anything? What even is your argument, and how does it pertain to the discussion?
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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by God Gogeta » Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:06 pm

No.
Only once lookalike base form was close to ritual SSG in terms of power when he fought Frieza in Return Of F events. That form which was God ki infused in base form while training with Whis, called Saiyan Beyond God form, disappeared after they completely transformed into SSB and later in the series when they willingly became able to transform into SSG.

Goku became lot stronger than before , so his base form has gotten stronger as well. As far as I'm thinking currently ( Broly Events) his base form will be as strong as Buu Saga SS2. That's more like he has gotten 100 times stronger in base than he was in Buu Saga or in Battle of Gods events.
While Using base form it doesn't always imply he is using the full power of the base form. So, it doesn't mean his opponents are as strong as his base form.

In TOP anime, SS2 Goku ( Critically Exhausted) was able to contain SS2 caulifla and controlled SS2 kale, So His base was lot stronger than normal SS2 was in like Cell saga.

If Goku's base was as strong as Ritual SSG, then while in normal SS he would have been as strong as SSB , in SS2 beyond that , and so on. That's illogical.
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Re: Base form Goku (ToP) stronger than ritual SSG Goku?

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:45 pm

Bergamo wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:
PFM18 wrote: The entire thing is a disaster. And no, I wouldn't consider some stickers an especially valid source for power level discussion.
If you think they aren’t valid, try to contact Bandai or Shueisha and see what they will reply. Just saying you won’t consider them valid won’t change anything.
Official or not, seeing as how these stickers factually cannot coincide with the manga or anime, how is this convincing evidence of anything? What even is your argument, and how does it pertain to the discussion?
Those stickers represent how the rightholders interpret their stuff, they went as far as to cover the new movie, so obviously they are related to the anime all the way to GT and movies. They aren’t perfectly compatible to the lore, but at least you can get the idea of who is stronger than who. Very simple. Since the thread is about comparing base form with SSG, I presented the stickers related to them. There is no argument to be made. You choose what to believe.

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