On whether or not Goku is indicated as using Ultra Instinct in the Broly movie in any way

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Re: On whether or not Goku is indicated as using Ultra Instinct in the Broly movie in any way

Post by emperior » Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:03 pm

AnimeNation101 wrote:He went UI.

From an “in-universe” perspective: There is no other explanation for Goku having silver hair and silver eyes with black pupils at the same time and it NOT being his Ultra Instinct. There’s just no other explanation if you look at this as someone within the universe. Thats indisputable. That alone should be enough.

From the “outside, looking in” perspective: Its an Easter egg but its still UI none the less. And if you ask “why wasm’t It mentioned in the novel or storyboard”, what my friend and i have agreed on is, if its an Easter egg, and we know that Nagamine and others have explained multiple times that he gives animators loads of creative freedom (meaning they DON’T have to follow his storyboarding and he even said before that during many of the fight scenes, people didn’t follow his storyboards), that means that an animator added UI as an Easter egg and it makes sense that it wasn’t in the storyboarding.

As for the novel, that would be based on Toriyama and his script. And its been explained that for the animated movie, the staff didn’t follow Toriyama’s script for the fights but instead did there own thing. And heck, even doing there own thing, animators were free enough to not even follow the staff’s (Nagamine’s storyboarding) ideas.

So OF COURSE the novel and storyboarding wouldn’t mention it.

As my friend said:

“Pretty much same as you've already been arguing. Whether it was ever intended to be included or not, I'd say whoever animated the scene probably decided to include it. Nagamine has gone on record as letting most of the people do as they please for the most part, so he likely kept it once it was turned in.”
Do you know that animators don’t decide colours, right? The decision to color that sequence that way is purely Nagamine’s and the animator only showed Goku powering up like crazy to give the idea that these are physical mutations that happen to Saiyans, according to Nagamine’s instructions to make the transformations feel hard.
Also by your logic there is no explanation in-universe for Vegeta’s hair to turn green and it not being Broly’s full power form which need Gogeta to go Blue after he could handle Broly’s normal Super Saiyan just fine in his Super Saiyan form.
And by your logic there is no explanation in-universe for Goku having a green aura when transforming in Blue and it not being Broly/Kale’s form.
There’s a thing called “artistic decision” just so you and your friend know. It’s not unusual for directors to play with colours.
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Re: On whether or not Goku is indicated as using Ultra Instinct in the Broly movie in any way

Post by mute_proxy » Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:26 pm

Ok after rewatching the sequence, there's one detail that kinda changed my mind, the hair doesn't just go from red, to glowing white, to Blue.
It goes from red, then momentarily flashes white/silver (with a sudden aura very similar to UI), then the eyes and hair go back to red (with the yellow aura), some more screaming, then SSBlue. It wasn't a transition, but a flash during SSGod. It's definitely a UI easter egg implying Goku still has "the powa", not just random colors to look cool.

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Re: On whether or not Goku is indicated as using Ultra Instinct in the Broly movie in any way

Post by MKCSTEALTH » Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:07 pm

To be honest, having gone back and watched it a couple times, I see the scene as both a nod to UI and a nod to the fandom. The majority of the scene he has red, Super Saiyan hair. Similar to the supposed "Limit Breaker" form the fandom gave Goku before we found out about UI

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Re: On whether or not Goku is indicated as using Ultra Instinct in the Broly movie in any way

Post by mute_proxy » Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:22 pm

MKCSTEALTH wrote:To be honest, having gone back and watched it a couple times, I see the scene as both a nod to UI and a nod to the fandom. The majority of the scene he has red, Super Saiyan hair. Similar to the supposed "Limit Breaker" form the fandom gave Goku before we found out about UI
It's just intense energy waves pushing the hair up, like when they shoot Kamehamehas or do Kaioken

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Re: On whether or not Goku is indicated as using Ultra Instinct in the Broly movie in any way

Post by AnimeNation101 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:09 pm

emperior wrote:
AnimeNation101 wrote:He went UI.

From an “in-universe” perspective: There is no other explanation for Goku having silver hair and silver eyes with black pupils at the same time and it NOT being his Ultra Instinct. There’s just no other explanation if you look at this as someone within the universe. Thats indisputable. That alone should be enough.

From the “outside, looking in” perspective: Its an Easter egg but its still UI none the less. And if you ask “why wasm’t It mentioned in the novel or storyboard”, what my friend and i have agreed on is, if its an Easter egg, and we know that Nagamine and others have explained multiple times that he gives animators loads of creative freedom (meaning they DON’T have to follow his storyboarding and he even said before that during many of the fight scenes, people didn’t follow his storyboards), that means that an animator added UI as an Easter egg and it makes sense that it wasn’t in the storyboarding.

As for the novel, that would be based on Toriyama and his script. And its been explained that for the animated movie, the staff didn’t follow Toriyama’s script for the fights but instead did there own thing. And heck, even doing there own thing, animators were free enough to not even follow the staff’s (Nagamine’s storyboarding) ideas.

So OF COURSE the novel and storyboarding wouldn’t mention it.

As my friend said:

“Pretty much same as you've already been arguing. Whether it was ever intended to be included or not, I'd say whoever animated the scene probably decided to include it. Nagamine has gone on record as letting most of the people do as they please for the most part, so he likely kept it once it was turned in.”
Do you know that animators don’t decide colours, right? The decision to color that sequence that way is purely Nagamine’s and the animator only showed Goku powering up like crazy to give the idea that these are physical mutations that happen to Saiyans, according to Nagamine’s instructions to make the transformations feel hard.
Also by your logic there is no explanation in-universe for Vegeta’s hair to turn green and it not being Broly’s full power form which need Gogeta to go Blue after he could handle Broly’s normal Super Saiyan just fine in his Super Saiyan form.
And by your logic there is no explanation in-universe for Goku having a green aura when transforming in Blue and it not being Broly/Kale’s form.
There’s a thing called “artistic decision” just so you and your friend know. It’s not unusual for directors to play with colours.
Everyone in this discussion knows what artistic decision is. Thats the whole argument here. UI vs Artistic Decision.

Here is how coloring works. Its been said multiple times how free Nagamine let the staff work to the point where they even ignored his storyboarding in favor of doing what they want, right? If an animator drops Nagamine’s storyboarding in favor of animating there own scene how they want, they can choose how its to be colored. Nagamine could either accept it or tell them to change it. He doesn’t automatically choose the color of a scene he didn’t even direct or storyboard. And again, its been stated how free he lets the staff work. So chances are he wouldn’t change it since he accepted the staff disregarding his storyboarding. So everything you said that Nagamine did is purely assumptions and wrong info on how production of the movie worked. So that can’t really dispute again what my friend and I said before.

And your “counter” to my in-universe point kinda doesn’t matter. The point is, IN-UNIVERSE, if you saw Goku get UI hair and UI eyes, the ONLY explanation is that he briefly activates UI. I don’t care about all the other stuff. I’m not arguing for or against that. I’m stating a fact about the scene. If you can justify, IN-UNIVERSE, Goku getting UI hair and eyes, and it not being UI, than please, do so.

Until then, in-universe, Goku went UI. Looking on the outside, there’s sufficient evidence to believe its UI and no real hard evidence to destroy that.


I mean, lets just think about this, it didn’t even show up as part of a quick flash into SSB. It literally appeared for enough time to be noticed IN BETWEEN Goku going from SSGod, and than back to SSGod before going SSB. Goku literally went from God mode, to a silver hair and silver eyes with black pupils looking state, BACK to God mode. Again, it wasn’t even apart of a flash from god to Blue. And again, it was from God, to UI, back to God, and than to Blue with no sign of UI again. Why would artistic choice be put not even between a transition into a new form but between the old form and going back to the old form before going to the new form.


And be real, you really think someone put that much intentional emphasis on an artistic choice that just so happened to make Goku look unintentionally EXACTLY like UI?

Naa, bro.
I called it that Gogeta, Bardock, and something Broly related would be in the movie before it was even announced that it was a Broly movie. 8)

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Re: On whether or not Goku is indicated as using Ultra Instinct in the Broly movie in any way

Post by Desassina » Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:17 pm

It's an easter egg, something to throw us off, and they have succeeded.

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Re: On whether or not Goku is indicated as using Ultra Instinct in the Broly movie in any way

Post by GreatSaiyaJeff » Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:37 pm

When the movie was concieved back in the spring of 2017, Toriyama probably didn't think much of Ultra instinct since it was originally Toei that wanted a new form to help promote. So the transformation was probably an easter egg.
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Re: On whether or not Goku is indicated as using Ultra Instinct in the Broly movie in any way

Post by JazzMazz » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:00 pm

IM21 wrote:I don't really care if he went UI or did not. I do have a problem of using the silver hair tho. If nothing states that he went UI why would u even give him the UI look. Should have not happened and that little second should have been cut from the movie. I am also not a fan of Nagamine just letting everyone do what they want. If you're the boss make them execute your vision.
I think thats more to do with this fandom being hilariously pedantic about the tiniest of details than anything to fault Nagamine on. Throughout the film, using different colours during transformation sequences is a pretty common visual cue. I would argue, Nagamine's vision for those transformation sequences, was for them to be extremely colourful to showcase the physical strain the transformations have on Goku and Vegeta.

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Re: On whether or not Goku is indicated as using Ultra Instinct in the Broly movie in any way

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:10 am

I don't mind the colors but why now are they trying to make transformations seem super stressful/painful/etc when they flipped in and out of them for the entirety of super especially ToP with no such issues. Imagine trying to go back to making super saiyan transformation dependent on intense emotions/trauma after giving us goten/trunk/caulifla

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Re: On whether or not Goku is indicated as using Ultra Instinct in the Broly movie in any way

Post by JazzMazz » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:38 am

RecolorSaiyan wrote:I don't mind the colors but why now are they trying to make transformations seem super stressful/painful/etc when they flipped in and out of them for the entirety of super especially ToP with no such issues. Imagine trying to go back to making super saiyan transformation dependent on intense emotions/trauma after giving us goten/trunk/caulifla
The answer to that is simple, to make them visually interesting, and actually feel like a transformation, as opposed to a swap in colour palette. I think something Nagamine really wanted to convey in this movie, was the difference between transformations, as well to visually rejuvenate a franchise that has kind of become stale in how it portrays transformations.

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Re: Goku try's to go Ultra Instinct in Broly movie

Post by God Gogeta » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:52 pm

TheOne wrote:
ssj3kakarot wrote:
FrostByte wrote:I don't think he tried to tap into Ultra Instinct. If you see the storyboard for that particular scene, nowhere does it say "Goku uses UI for a split second". Instead it just says "Goku directly goes into Super Saiyan Blue". Many aura colours appear in that scene such as yellow, green, silver, and finally blue. Either that's just an easter egg, or Nagamine's love for colours.

Or it's Goku's attempt to change into his most powerful state, which makes the most sense.Especially on the heels of him just getting UI in the ToP. Besides, Goku doesn't flash random colors turning blue.
How in the world does “Goku attempting to change into his most powerful state” seem to make more sense? Both Goku and Vegeta transformed in sequential order. SSJ, SSG and then SSB. Why the heck would Goku all of a sudden try to turn UI when we know for a fact that he likes to take his time?

The OBVIOUS answer is that they just got colorful with the transformations. They teased a green hair Vegeta when he transformed... Are you gonna try and assume that Vegeta tried to mimic Kales SSJ transformation because of that? No.


Another reason this thought should be put to bed, is that Goku straining the way he did trying to transform GOES COMPLETELY AGAINST WHAT MAKES UI DIFFERENT. There was no calmness whatsoever. Geez. People overthink things too much
Yes , activating UI required most possible calmness in mind and remove all worries. Whereas during that transformation in the Broly movie Goku gets more violent and trying to bring out his full power like his first time transformation of SSJ.
That's no way can be UI.
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Re: On whether or not Goku is indicated as using Ultra Instinct in the Broly movie in any way

Post by God Gogeta » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:59 pm

MKCSTEALTH wrote:To be honest, having gone back and watched it a couple times, I see the scene as both a nod to UI and a nod to the fandom. The majority of the scene he has red, Super Saiyan hair. Similar to the supposed "Limit Breaker" form the fandom gave Goku before we found out about UI

Image
I still wish it will happen. RED of orange makes Goku look great and Godly. let them have three different colours Goku Red, Vegeta Blue, Broly Green. :D :D :D :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :lol: :lol: .
After SSB immediate colour change for saiyan transformation is impossible. :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:
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Re: On whether or not Goku is indicated as using Ultra Instinct in the Broly movie in any way

Post by God Gogeta » Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:01 pm

RecolorSaiyan wrote:I don't mind the colors but why now are they trying to make transformations seem super stressful/painful/etc when they flipped in and out of them for the entirety of super especially ToP with no such issues. Imagine trying to go back to making super saiyan transformation dependent on intense emotions/trauma after giving us goten/trunk/caulifla
I couldn't agree more. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
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Re: Goku try's to go Ultra Instinct in Broly movie

Post by mute_proxy » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:47 am

God Gogeta wrote: Yes , activating UI required most possible calmness in mind and remove all worries. Whereas during that transformation in the Broly movie Goku gets more violent and trying to bring out his full power like his first time transformation of SSJ.
That's no way can be UI.
And activating SSJ reguired anger and emotional stress, but now everyone can transform without giving it a second thought. No way can they be using SSJ now.
Transforming into SSGod required 5 righteous saiyans standing in a circle, but now they transform into SSGod no sweat on their own, no way can they be using SSGod now. See where I'm getting at? :lol:
It was a hint of UI, it just didn't work.

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Re: Goku try's to go Ultra Instinct in Broly movie

Post by TheOne » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:17 am

mute_proxy wrote:
God Gogeta wrote: Yes , activating UI required most possible calmness in mind and remove all worries. Whereas during that transformation in the Broly movie Goku gets more violent and trying to bring out his full power like his first time transformation of SSJ.
That's no way can be UI.
And activating SSJ reguired anger and emotional stress, but now everyone can transform without giving it a second thought. No way can they be using SSJ now.
Transforming into SSGod required 5 righteous saiyans standing in a circle, but now they transform into SSGod no sweat on their own, no way can they be using SSGod now. See where I'm getting at? :lol:
It was a hint of UI, it just didn't work.
You know what’s sad? You don’t even see the contradiction in your argument. You made the statement “they can transform now without giving it a second thought..” yet, both Goku and Vegeta put in a lot of effort turning into SSJ. Yeah the transition to from SSJ to SSG was seamless for both of them, but SSJ and SSB were more dramatic. Don’t apply the DBS BS animation to the movie, especially when they’re two COMPLETELY different art styles.

Another thing that makes your statement ridiculous is that both Goku and Vegeta transformed in sequence. Base, SSJ, SSG then Blue. Even Gogeta followed that pattern. Now you want to act as if Goku attempted to go UI and failed? Since when has Goku never taken his time building up to transformations? He did it against Beerus, Black, Kale and Caulifla, as well as Jiren. It was visual appeal for the fans. Nothing more.

What’s ultimately going to happen here is you’ll stick to your own personal theories instead of looking at the facts laid in front of you. That’s how sad this fan base.
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Re: Goku try's to go Ultra Instinct in Broly movie

Post by mute_proxy » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:37 am

TheOne wrote:
You know what’s sad? You don’t even see the contradiction in your argument. You made the statement “they can transform now without giving it a second thought..” yet, both Goku and Vegeta put in a lot of effort turning into SSJ. Yeah the transition to from SSJ to SSG was seamless for both of them, but SSJ and SSB were more dramatic. Don’t apply the DBS BS animation to the movie, especially when they’re two COMPLETELY different art styles.
Where is the contradiction? Art style has nothing to do with our discussion. We're talking about the forms themselves, we're talking UI and what it takes to transform, so ofcourse I'm gonna apply the series. And SSJ became an easy transformation way before DBSuper. Goku went SSGod with very little effort in the movie too.

TheOne wrote:Another thing that makes your statement ridiculous is that both Goku and Vegeta transformed in sequence. Base, SSJ, SSG then Blue. Even Gogeta followed that pattern. Now you want to act as if Goku attempted to go UI and failed? Since when has Goku never taken his time building up to transformations? He did it against Beerus, Black, Kale and Caulifla, as well as Jiren.

No, they didn't. Goku went SS, SSGod, then SSBlue, while Vegeta returned to base after SSGod. Later he went SSBlue from base to help Goku out.
I'm not saying he tried to go UI, he tried squeezing out all of his power for SSBlue, and during his power up a hint of UI appeared (as an easter egg, but it was still there), his hair went from red to silver, as did his eyes, the aura also changed. A moment later it went back to red (it didn't transition straight to Blue, if it did, I'd be more sceptical).
It happened on it's own, that's how UI seems to be at the moment, not because Goku was going for it. That's what I'm saying.
TheOne wrote:What’s ultimately going to happen here is you’ll stick to your own personal theories instead of looking at the facts laid in front of you. That’s how sad this fan base.
Not everything's gonna or has to be spoon fed through data books and production staff comments. The facts are in the visual medium also, the movie.
The fuck is wrong with your attitude anyway. Can't be polite go someplace else.

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