Broly's rage: is it inherently genetic or learnable?

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Re: Broly's Ikari .. Is it Genetically Inherent or Learnable?

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:55 pm

I guess Goku can learn pretty much anything, he completely mastered UI that is something for angels and GoDs, in less than an hour, so he shouldn't hit a wall with anything, really. The thing is he lost his tail and has developed his power by other means. One could say Goku actually did that in GT.
But perhaps this isn't learnable, it looks like Broly was so strong growing up that even without a tail that ohzaru dormant power had to get out somehow, or maybe he mastered it by becoming a great ape and then controlling it just like SS4 does, making his tail obsolete at some given point. Saiyajin do not entirely control the ohzaru because when they lose the tail, they lose the power.
So my vote goes for genetically inherent

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Re: Broly's Ikari .. Is it Genetically Inherent or Learnable?

Post by Rubens » Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:43 am

Broli Broly wrote:
Rubens wrote:I feel the ability to harness or to attain a form that harnesses the power of an oozaru is something saiyans might be biologically capable to do, but it's something seemingly incredibly hard to do that only Broli can achieve because of his legendary status. I guess if some saiyan did achieve that form, probably it would be nowhere near as strong as Broli's, maybe only a resemblence.
No, it's not hard. In fact, it is much easier to attain than SSJ, since both kid Goku (ch 160 & 161) and Shallot from DB heroes were able to get an Oozaru power up while still being humans with not so much effort. Pretty much any Saiyan can do that as long as he/she has a tail and he/she exposed to the Moon's waves. The differences between this and Broly's case is as follows:
1- The necessity of tails & blutz waves for regular Saiyans. Boly can access his power without the need of a tail or blutz waves.
2- The lack of any unique aura in Goku/Shallot's case. Broly's Ikari has unique Green aura.
(...)
3- In Ikari, Broly kept growing in seize until he literally dwarfed Goku ... Kid Goku & Shallot lack this feature.
(...)
4- During the transformation sequence of SSJ, Broly's eyes turned wholly red, the same as an actual Oozaru:
(...)
5- During the Transformation sequence to the "Full Power SSJ", the same thing happened again:
(...)

These pics show that all Broly's forms (Ikari, SSJ & FPSSJ) work under the same principle of Ikari: "using the power of Oozaru in human form". So unless someone thinks that Broly's signature form (FPSSJ) is attainable/ learnable, I would say Ikari/Wrathful is a Mutation which only Legendary Saiyans possess.
To be fair, the power ups Goku and Shallot underwent were different and in different circumstances; they didn't change the same way as Broli did, just like you pointed out. What I inicially speculated was perhaps "how well" they can use the "oozaru power" in human form, hence why it seemed to me like something hard to do. However, I do agree with you that this "Ikari" form is very likely exclusive for Broli (which I hope it is) and possibly directly tied with his super saiyan forms.
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Re: Broly's Ikari .. Is it Genetically Inherent or Learnable?

Post by mute_proxy » Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:47 am

Koitsukai wrote:I guess Goku can learn pretty much anything, he completely mastered UI that is something for angels and GoDs, in less than an hour, so he shouldn't hit a wall with anything, really. The thing is he lost his tail and has developed his power by other means. One could say Goku actually did that in GT.
Mastering it means he's a master at it, which he isn't, he can't even use it at will. He temporarily managed to access the complete version of it

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Re: Broly's Ikari .. Is it Genetically Inherent or Learnable?

Post by Broli Broly » Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:06 am

Koitsukai wrote:I guess Goku can learn pretty much anything, he completely mastered UI that is something for angels and GoDs, in less than an hour, so he shouldn't hit a wall with anything, really. The thing is he lost his tail and has developed his power by other means. One could say Goku actually did that in GT.
But perhaps this isn't learnable, it looks like Broly was so strong growing up that even without a tail that ohzaru dormant power had to get out somehow, or maybe he mastered it by becoming a great ape and then controlling it just like SS4 does, making his tail obsolete at some given point. Saiyajin do not entirely control the ohzaru because when they lose the tail, they lose the power.
So my vote goes for genetically inherent
Fair enough! Speaking of UI, I think it was mentioned somewhere in the manga that UI is the accumulation of Goku's training in martial arts since the very beginning. This led me to the idea that UI was probably "tailored" to uniquely fit with Goku's way of training. The latter is a GREAT martial artist rather than a warrior, and was in this domain since his early childhood. Unlike Goku, Broly is basically a "Saiyan Tarzan", who fights mainly using primal instinct and brute force, just like an Oozaru. Maybe that's why Toriyama came up with this "concept" of Ikari as the foundation of Broly's Saiyan forms. As for Vegeta, he is an elite Warrior who acts on his pride as the prince of all Saiyans. We don't know what plans Toriyama has for him, but I think he may take SSB to an even higher form than evolution which will most likely be unique to him, and fit perfectly with his way of training. These are merely assumption, but who knows what's gonna happen? :)

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Re: Broly's Ikari .. Is it Genetically Inherent or Learnable?

Post by God Gogeta » Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:10 pm

Fair enough! Speaking of UI, I think it was mentioned somewhere in the manga that UI is the accumulation of Goku's training in martial arts since the very beginning. This led me to the idea that UI was probably "tailored" to uniquely fit with Goku's way of training. The latter is a GREAT martial artist rather than a warrior, and was in this domain since his early childhood. Unlike Goku, Broly is basically a "Saiyan Tarzan", who fights mainly using primal instinct and brute force, just like an Oozaru. Maybe that's why Toriyama came up with this "concept" of Ikari as the foundation of Broly's Saiyan forms. As for Vegeta, he is an elite Warrior who acts on his pride as the prince of all Saiyans. We don't know what plans Toriyama has for him, but I think he may take SSB to an even higher form than evolution which will most likely be unique to him, and fit perfectly with his way of training. These are merely assumption, but who knows what's gonna happen? :)[/quote]
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Re: Broly's Ikari .. Is it Genetically Inherent or Learnable?

Post by Hulk10 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:25 pm

I think it might be learnable. I doubt that its tied to his Super Saiyan forms.
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Re: Broly's Ikari .. Is it Genetically Inherent or Learnable?

Post by Son Dragon » Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:16 pm

Hulk10 wrote:I think it might be learnable. I doubt that its tied to his Super Saiyan forms.
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Re: Broly's Ikari .. Is it Genetically Inherent or Learnable?

Post by Hulk10 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:03 am

Unfortunately the admins on the dragon ball wikia page believe otherwise.
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Re: Broly's Ikari .. Is it Genetically Inherent or Learnable?

Post by DragonBallFoodie » Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:56 pm

I think it's inherent, as it was unlocked through rage. I don't think rage can be learned or passed on.
Broli Broly wrote: Yeah, and something like this is would also be cool
Image
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But we all know that it's next to impossible :roll:
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Re: Broly's rage: is it inherently genetic or learnable?

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:50 pm

He was stated to be a mutant, so it's most likely genetics.

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Re: Broly's rage: is it inherently genetic or learnable?

Post by Hulk10 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:19 pm

Yeah Broly is a Saiyan prodigy.
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Re: Broly's rage: is it inherently genetic or learnable?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:09 am

I think the unique ability to power up specifically through the harnessing of Oozaru while retaining Human form is specifically unique to Broly, who was both a mutant AND was raised and trained in an environment almost perfectly made for an Oozaru.

However, that's not to say Goku and Vegeta don't use this at all. I think that this Oozaru potential is part of why all Saiyans have the potential to grow extremely strong extremely fast. When Vegeta and Goku dramatically power up to Super Saiyan (Blue), they briefly display the same green colouration Broly showcases. I believe that this wasn't JUST an artistic choice, but a deliberate aesthetic detail.

Basically, I take it as their ability to transform into the various types of Super Saiyans being partially due to their latent Oozaru potential; this hidden primal power allows them to tap into these higher levels and has always been with them, it's just that they haven't been able to express the full extent of it due to not being unique mutants like Broly is.

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Re: Broly's rage: is it inherently genetic or learnable?

Post by Hulk10 » Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:50 pm

Broly's Wrathful form is probably genetic like his Super Saiyan forms. But there is no strong evidence to support the idea that Broly's Wrathful form is connected to his Super Saiyan forms.
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Re: Broly's rage: is it inherently genetic or learnable?

Post by Miracles » Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:47 am

Broly's rage was the result of the great ape. Therefore genetic, this was stated in the movie.
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Re: Broly's rage: is it inherently genetic or learnable?

Post by Mister_Popo » Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:52 pm

It's difficult to say, but it might be a combination of both.

He's from nature a lot more powerful than Goku and Vegeta. Maybe the most powerful Saiyan there has ever been.
That gives him an advantage to gain such a superior transformation at a young age.

Vampa seems a more primitive and hostile environment than earth and Planet Vegeta.
Could this environment have stimulated Broly somehow to hold 'touch' with his Oozaru nature?
This while Goku and Vegeta in their younger years became accustomed to more luxury and without their tails maybe lost the connection there once was more than Broly. They too however managed to reach more powerful transformations, but not nearly as powerful as Brolys LSSJ.

Broly does prove that losing the tail and physical Oozaru form, doesn't necessarily mean a Saiyan loses his "Oozaru spirit" too.

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Re: Broly's rage: is it inherently genetic or learnable?

Post by Hulk10 » Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:48 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:52 pm
It's difficult to say, but it might be a combination of both.

He's from nature a lot more powerful than Goku and Vegeta. Maybe the most powerful Saiyan there has ever been.
That gives him an advantage to gain such a superior transformation at a young age.

Vampa seems a more primitive and hostile environment than earth and Planet Vegeta.
Could this environment have stimulated Broly somehow to hold 'touch' with his Oozaru nature?
This while Goku and Vegeta in their younger years became accustomed to more luxury and without their tails maybe lost the connection there once was more than Broly. They too however managed to reach more powerful transformations, but not nearly as powerful as Brolys LSSJ.

Broly does prove that losing the tail and physical Oozaru form, doesn't necessarily mean a Saiyan loses his "Oozaru spirit" too.
Hmm possible. That's an interesting thought.
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Re: Broly's rage: is it inherently genetic or learnable?

Post by DragonBallFoodie » Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:47 pm

It's more likely genetic IMO, heredity passes on things from parents to children.

And how is ikari (rage) learnable?
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Re: Broly's rage: is it inherently genetic or learnable?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:28 pm

While it there is a genetic component, I think there's a lot due to the environment Broly grew up in.

His tailed body was constantly exposed to Blutz Waves, which would basically have primed Broly's body to always be ready to go Oozaru once he looks at the moon.

I imagine this, combined with his naturally massive hidden potential power that can be awakened through high emotions, really contributed to the Ikari state. It's a combination of standard emotionally-awakened hidden reserves of power PLUS the Great Ape potential basically permanently ingrained in Broly's body from a young age.

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Re: Broly's rage: is it inherently genetic or learnable?

Post by Hulk10 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:20 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:28 pm
While it there is a genetic component, I think there's a lot due to the environment Broly grew up in.

His tailed body was constantly exposed to Blutz Waves, which would basically have primed Broly's body to always be ready to go Oozaru once he looks at the moon.

I imagine this, combined with his naturally massive hidden potential power that can be awakened through high emotions, really contributed to the Ikari state. It's a combination of standard emotionally-awakened hidden reserves of power PLUS the Great Ape potential basically permanently ingrained in Broly's body from a young age.
It wouldn't surprise me if Broly could have achieved this form even with a tail.
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