God Ki as a concept.. was the ball dropped?

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God Ki as a concept.. was the ball dropped?

Post by goku the krump dancer » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:44 am

So as the title says, do you guys, like myself feel like between Toriyama, Toei and Toyotaro (Probably mostly Toei) that due to inconsistent writing that God Ki has been underwhelming/poorly booked (using wrestling terminology) almost to the point of no return?

What I mean is, Neither Red God or Blue God feel even remotely empowering anymore and arguably never have outside of BoG. Upon its introduction God Ki was regarded to as this realm of power so inconceivably powerful that not even Goku and Vegeta at their strongest fused self at the time would be enough to stop someone with access to such Ki.

Since that movie though they've met with various foes each having their fare turn of making SSBlue (The strongest form outside of Ultra Instinct) looking like a complete joke especially in the anime, Freeza, Hit, Kale, Kefla, Android 17, Toppo and Jiren. Granted I have no issue with Blue Goku and Vegeta being challenged ( thats what the story is about) however what I find odd is that they're being trounced by guys who save for Toppo or Jiren have shown no hints of knowing what God KI was letting alone having access to it and now with Broly following suit on that list is there seemingly no way of having the form save face especially considering now that we have Ultra Instinct? I mean at this rate they might as well have called Red God SS4 and Blue God SS5 because they're being pushed to the edge not by fellow God Ki users but by regular chi using mortals.
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Re: God Ki as a concept.. was the ball dropped?

Post by GodVegetto91 » Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:39 am

goku the krump dancer wrote:So as the title says, do you guys, like myself feel like between Toriyama, Toei and Toyotaro (Probably mostly Toei) that due to inconsistent writing that God Ki has been underwhelming/poorly booked (using wrestling terminology) almost to the point of no return?

What I mean is, Neither Red God or Blue God feel even remotely empowering anymore and arguably never have outside of BoG. Upon its introduction God Ki was regarded to as this realm of power so inconceivably powerful that not even Goku and Vegeta at their strongest fused self at the time would be enough to stop someone with access to such Ki.

Since that movie though they've met with various foes each having their fare turn of making SSBlue (The strongest form outside of Ultra Instinct) looking like a complete joke especially in the anime, Freeza, Hit, Kale, Kefla, Android 17, Toppo and Jiren. Granted I have no issue with Blue Goku and Vegeta being challenged ( thats what the story is about) however what I find odd is that they're being trounced by guys who save for Toppo or Jiren have shown no hints of knowing what God KI was letting alone having access to it and now with Broly following suit on that list is there seemingly no way of having the form save face especially considering now that we have Ultra Instinct? I mean at this rate they might as well have called Red God SS4 and Blue God SS5 because they're being pushed to the edge not by fellow God Ki users but by regular chi using mortals.
It’s their own fault for fucking things up. Not the fans’. SSG Goku should’ve been untouchable by ANY mortal. BoG was perfect. The point in time where things went horribly wrong and everything went downhill from there was when Golden Freeza was introduced. From that point onwards until now, DOZENS of mortal ki characters have been introduced to either defeat, or keep up with SSJ Blue (The Super Saiyan version of SSJ God no less!) If this isn’t bad writing i don’t know what is.
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Re: God Ki as a concept.. was the ball dropped?

Post by Ssb_goku20 » Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:28 am

They just simply want to give Vegeta and Goku an actual fight, that's what Dragon Ball has always been about and not them simply trashing everyone because of the transformation they're using but i do agree with you in terms of Dbs Broly as the God forms in the Movie seems extremely nerfed in comparison to the T.O.P versions

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Re: God Ki as a concept.. was the ball dropped?

Post by Rubens » Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:31 am

I believe so, yes. One of the things that bugged me the most was the recurrent introduction of characters capable of competing with Goku and Vegeta in their god forms, starting with Freeza, then Hit (I remember feeling really mad that some random guy was stronger than ssblue Vegeta)... then by the Future Trunks arc I reluctantly accepted that characters this strong were just going to show up out of nowhere.

For me Super was the opportunity for them to reintroduce and expand on god ki, which I thought it was a really interesting concept back in Battle of Gods, but with RoF and onwards it just felt overall underwhelming. Describing god ki simply as "huge pressure" is pretty vague and didn't really give off that vibe to me; "pressure" should be just one characteristic of it and not what god ki is all about. And I think Goku switching blue on and off frequently made it feel even cheaper.
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Re: God Ki as a concept.. was the ball dropped?

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:53 am

Yes I think so, aside from making Goku and Vegeta stronger and giving them new transformation which they don’t need God Ki for, it does nothing for the story or the fights. I don’t even know why they made them so strong in the first place, if they’re so easily challenged by everyone they come up against.

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Re: God Ki as a concept.. was the ball dropped?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:55 pm

Yeah, I gotta admit, it did kinda fall to the wayside in favour of simply powering up characters in general.

At least Hakai Energy, the special God Ki exclusive to Gods of Destruction and candidates for the position trained in its usage, has some additional properties beyond simple strength enhancement.

Namely, it's ability to nullify Ki attacks without sufficient power behind them and completely erase objects from existence and preventing people from going to Otherworld. If we had more of that kind of stuff for regular God Ki, I imagine it'd go a long way in making it more exciting and less dull.

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Re: God Ki as a concept.. was the ball dropped?

Post by Tai Lung » Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:26 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote:So as the title says, do you guys, like myself feel like between Toriyama, Toei and Toyotaro (Probably mostly Toei) that due to inconsistent writing that God Ki has been underwhelming/poorly booked (using wrestling terminology) almost to the point of no return?

What I mean is, Neither Red God or Blue God feel even remotely empowering anymore and arguably never have outside of BoG. Upon its introduction God Ki was regarded to as this realm of power so inconceivably powerful that not even Goku and Vegeta at their strongest fused self at the time would be enough to stop someone with access to such Ki.

Since that movie though they've met with various foes each having their fare turn of making SSBlue (The strongest form outside of Ultra Instinct) looking like a complete joke especially in the anime, Freeza, Hit, Kale, Kefla, Android 17, Toppo and Jiren. Granted I have no issue with Blue Goku and Vegeta being challenged ( thats what the story is about) however what I find odd is that they're being trounced by guys who save for Toppo or Jiren have shown no hints of knowing what God KI was letting alone having access to it and now with Broly following suit on that list is there seemingly no way of having the form save face especially considering now that we have Ultra Instinct? I mean at this rate they might as well have called Red God SS4 and Blue God SS5 because they're being pushed to the edge not by fellow God Ki users but by regular chi using mortals.
not necessarily if it is assumed that if you train the god ki the difference with the regular ki is much more marked but this can take years to be achieved

how many mortals outgrow beerus? maybe just jiren

and about the transformations I think is something that has happened as the ssj, ssj2 or ssj3 when facing more powerful enemies

but it has been said that although god ki represents a great advantage they still have a way to go
I think that was the point that goku did not defeat beerus

toppo can use the god ki, I do not think it counts
Android 17 and kale are weaker than the SSJB
and part of the multiverse plot is that there would be stronger subjects goku or vegeta, would say that hit has an excuse

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Re: God Ki as a concept.. was the ball dropped?

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:05 pm

God Ki was a huge wasted opportunity.

Vegeta obtaining Super Saiyan Blue in the fashion that he did in the Resurrection F retelling and Goku spontaneously preventing any unnecessary expenditure of Ki while using Super Saiyan Blue against Merged Zamasu in the manga, I felt, was indicative of Toei and Toyotaro's general approach to God Ki as a narrative concept.

The method in which Super Saiyan Blue was attained was a quite unique and intriguing. The mechanics of combining two transformations together to essentially create a off-shoot, and in a way "ultimate", transformation for your own personal use was quite unprecedented in the franchise itself, and could have opened the door the further possibilities of the Super Saiyan transformations we never knew were possible.

It could have also widened the approach for how we view Ki as whole and would have made Whis' training all the mystical. But instead they just choose the cop-out of Vegeta just training to attain the form. No expansion of the Super Saiyan God transformation. No deeper look in the structure of Ki. No further insight in the mechanics of the Super Saiyan form. Nothing.

With the anime, the best we get is Vegeta doing some push ups, sit ups and crunches and he's becomes Super Saiyan Blue. And in the manga, Vegeta attains Super Saiyan God off-screen in the Room of Spirit and Time, and Goku just suddenly displays the ability to prevent his Ki from leaking while using Super Saiyan Blue.

I really don't understand why a concept like God Ki would be introduced, is made a big of with regards of to Beerus' power, have the main character(s) training being centered around it, and not do anything with the concept beyond stating that you have it prevent your ki from leaking out. They could have done so much more with God Ki, but just used it an another convenient vehicle for Goku and Vegeta to be far stronger than the rest of the cast.

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Re: God Ki as a concept.. was the ball dropped?

Post by MKCSTEALTH » Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:42 pm

Absolutely. I feel the whole idea of the God Power-Up was misused. Having him "absorb God power into his base" made for a whole lot of issues rise up from it. God Ki should have been a new type of energy they train in, tap into for battle, and utilize for new power-ups that can have dangerous repercussions (similar to what happened with Goku and MUI). Make the God forms truly have a weight to it. That's honestly why I liked how the new movie handled transformations. They felt significant to the character, they weren't just "blipping" into the forms like they did in Super

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Re: God Ki as a concept.. was the ball dropped?

Post by Marco Polo » Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:48 pm

Ultra Instinct is basically what SSG should have been

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Re: God Ki as a concept.. was the ball dropped?

Post by PFM18 » Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:02 pm

Marco Polo wrote:Ultra Instinct is basically what SSG should have been
You mean just in the sense of being the last transformation?

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Re: God Ki as a concept.. was the ball dropped?

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:13 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Marco Polo wrote:Ultra Instinct is basically what SSG should have been
You mean just in the sense of being the last transformation?
You know what's funny? In years to come, UI will mostlikely feel like the current ssb. A form newer enemies will compete against, and eventually surpass it to a point of something new.

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Re: God Ki as a concept.. was the ball dropped?

Post by nato25 » Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:44 pm

100%

So many inconsistencies with God Ki it's definitely not been handled well at all. It's also explained way too vaguely.

God Ki doesn't seem to be exclusive to characters with the title of God, obviously that's why Goku and Vegeta have it. So it's just another 'class' of ki for lack of a better term that can't be felt unless you also have God Ki. But it can also be surpassed by mortals without God Ki such as Jiren and Hit. And then Toppo has God Ki (or God of Destruction Ki which might be different all together, but doesn't Beerus have both?) but get's surpassed by Vegeta with SSBE.

I have no clue lol

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Re: God Ki as a concept.. was the ball dropped?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Jan 21, 2019 9:47 pm

nato25 wrote:100%

So many inconsistencies with God Ki it's definitely not been handled well at all. It's also explained way too vaguely.

God Ki doesn't seem to be exclusive to characters with the title of God, obviously that's why Goku and Vegeta have it. So it's just another 'class' of ki for lack of a better term that can't be felt unless you also have God Ki. But it can also be surpassed by mortals without God Ki such as Jiren and Hit. And then Toppo has God Ki (or God of Destruction Ki which might be different all together, but doesn't Beerus have both?) but get's surpassed by Vegeta with SSBE.

I have no clue lol
With regards to Hakai Energy, I think that Gods of Destruction and GoD candidates use it as a power source for more ordinary Ki attacks, like how Toppo's standard orange Ki balls didn't have the erasure effect of his Hakai technique but still had the power that powering up with Hakai Energy granted.

At least the writers tried to make Hakai Energy stand out a bit more from regular God Ki.

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Re: God Ki as a concept.. was the ball dropped?

Post by Lionel » Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:20 pm

When you think about how this retroactively applies to the series' more localised deities such as Karin and Kami, it kind of trivialises the gravitas of god ki even more. Think about it, you had small children, teenagers, and hermetic backwoods swordsmen overtaking them within the span of a few years. In Tao's case, all he needed to do to presumably surpass Karin was get some cybernetic upgrades -- the original DB equivalent to Gero producing androids/cyborgs more powerful than Freeza in Z, if you will.

I say that Super has definitely dropped the ball. Although when you look back at earlier examples of characters who would presumably possess god ki, its impact has already been undermined in a way.

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Re: God Ki as a concept.. was the ball dropped?

Post by nato25 » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:02 pm

Lionel wrote:When you think about how this retroactively applies to the series' more localised deities such as Karin and Kami, it kind of trivialises the gravitas of god ki even more. Think about it, you had small children, teenagers, and hermetic backwoods swordsmen overtaking them within the span of a few years. In Tao's case, all he needed to do to presumably surpass Karin was get some cybernetic upgrades -- the original DB equivalent to Gero producing androids/cyborgs more powerful than Freeza in Z, if you will.

I say that Super has definitely dropped the ball. Although when you look back at earlier examples of characters who would presumably possess god ki, its impact has already been undermined in a way.
In terms of power yes, gods are typically pretty weak in the Dragon Ball world. I think that's just how this universe is though, God's hold relatively high status but their power can vary greatly and easily be surpassed by mortals. The only ones I would truly call Godly in terms of power are Zeno and maybe the Grand Priest and the Angels. It seems like those guys could zap you out of existence at any time with Godly power as opposed to incredible strength obtained from just being a God such as in Beerus' case.

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Re: God Ki as a concept.. was the ball dropped?

Post by Tai Lung » Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:20 am

PFM18 wrote:
Marco Polo wrote:Ultra Instinct is basically what SSG should have been
You mean just in the sense of being the last transformation?
It is assumed that the Ultra instinct is the maximum exponent of the god ki can reach, the ssj god and ssj blue would be something like the steps for it, just get it now needs channeling that energy ... I do not know I would say that it was understood that still He was still not invincible and should continue to improve

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Re: God Ki as a concept.. was the ball dropped?

Post by Jack Bz » Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:39 am

Super saiyan god should have been a power Goku couldn't tap into again until the tournament of power. Super saiyan blue should have been his attempt at reconnecting with the power he felt, a hint of the dormant god power within him that he can't quite reach, elevated with super saiyan. This would have kept god ki mysterious, but Goku and Vegeta are still way stronger than they were pre-Beerus by using blue.

Then Goku should have reactivated super saiyan god again at the TOP, being the equivalent of UI Omen. Everyone is sure Goku can now win, he has power that put up a fight against Beerus. But Jiren, a being who can stand up to even a god of destruction, still wins. This would have been just as effective as showing him as a power house.

Goku then combines ssj god with whis's teachings, which become easier to use under god ki, and activates ultra instinct. Ultra instinct is after all known as the technique of the gods, so it'd make sense that Goku couldn't utilise it until he reactivated his god ki fully again.

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Re: God Ki as a concept.. was the ball dropped?

Post by TysonWine » Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:52 am

God ki was underwhelming post BOG. It was just a quick way for Goku and Vegeta to get stronger in a hurry, but hasn't shown to be necessary for any narrative purpose outside of "Goku and Vegeta need to be stronger to beat this bad guy", and doesn't really add to the fighting (with the exception Of Blue Kaioken which can't exist without God ki).

I'm not against the idea of mortals being stronger than Gods, but I am against the way it's been presented. Remember when Beerus freaked out when Jiren powered up? That's the reaction a God should have to a mortal who's on their level. With the exception of Jiren, nobody bats an eye at those who can keep up with God Goku/Vegeta. I don't have a problem with Broly being so strong, but a being who's "Probably stronger than Beerus" didn't cause Beerus to lose any sleep?

I would say this is truly where the ball was dropped. The two strongest fighters at the end of DBZ need God ki to keep up with the world around them, not the other way around. This would likely be more acceptable by the fandom if the Saiyans were taken to a higher plan of existence where everyone was if not a deity, something more than a mortal. Instead of their environment changing, the Saiyans changed. This means that if they don't meet Beerus they don't make it past ROF, they get slaughtered in the TOP, Oh and thank god 17's not a bad guy! I don't want to nitpick or be that guy. I understand that if they weren't at their current level of strength, they wouldn't have survived fill in the blank. That's how the story is written. The point is, none of the beings that would've defeated them had God ki, so why is it necessary for them?

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Re: God Ki as a concept.. was the ball dropped?

Post by Amir » Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:00 am

God ki is literally just a name. It never mattered.
They screwed this up as soon as Golden Frieza was introduced like someone has already pointed out.

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