Characters you wish were completely removed from Super/sequels

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Tai Lung
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Re: Characters you wish were completely removed from Super/sequels

Post by Tai Lung » Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:46 pm

ruler9871 wrote:
funrush wrote:I think the Trunks/Mai relationship is easily one of the worst parts of Super, if I'd remove anything it's that.
As if Goku x Chichi is any better..........
it's worse do not hesitate at least trunks and mai show that they love each other and his relationship has a advanced

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Re: Characters you wish were completely removed from Super/sequels

Post by Torturephile » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:06 pm

BWri wrote:
AnzuMazaki wrote: And the funny thing is, I think Toriyama could easily make a Gohan spinoff manga that he would enjoy writing centering around Gohan's life and superhero persona. Seems like something lighthearted that he'd really like.
I would quite be down with it. Gohan hasn't ever struck me much as quite the character in general, nowadays with the exception of the early Buu arc episodes with all his high school and superhero shtick, when his character truly shines for me.
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Re: Characters you wish were completely removed from Super/sequels

Post by BWri » Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:17 pm

Kataphrut wrote:
TekTheNinja wrote:Personally not on board with the idea of "They've handled this classic character poorly so they should get rid of them". The just need to DO BETTER and stop humiliating the old cast.
ruler9871 wrote:
By that logic, Goku himself should also be put out of the series since he has been stale as a character after the Cell Games.
I mean to be honest... Yes. I've wanted them to take Goku's character in a new direction, preferably as a mentor to Uub, for a while now, but if they have no plans the change the status quo at all, Goku's just become sorta boring.
Totally Not Mark put out a really good video the other day about why Goku suits the protagonist role so well despite being a flat character. (link here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns2GvGSBsok&t=0s). If you don't feel like watching it, basically the gist of it is that Goku works because he starts the story already secure in his outlook, and development mostly comes from other characters like Piccolo and Vegeta reacting to him and changing as a result. Sure he's had development and maturation (training under Roshi, losing to Jackie Chun, accepting his Saiyan heritage, etc) but those are just things that happened that changed his perspective in subtle ways. They haven't meant the end of his arc. Meanwhile, characters like Vegeta, Piccolo, Gohan etc are difficult to keep going because their arcs are already complete.
I saw that video too and I see where Mark was going but I think he mishandles his points. For one, a flat character is only as interesting as the world they inhabit. They often heavily rely on other characters around them to keep the story interesting. To a degree Dragon Ball has always been like this, but I would argue that Goku's motivations seemed stronger back then, likely because you could believe there was a world of opponents stronger than him. Now, side characters aren't nearly as developed or well-rounded as they used to be and it takes a lot to believe there's anyone as strong as Goku out there. That creates a 3-fold problem for the new series.

And honestly the whole premise of Goku being a flat character is flawed as even your comments above attest. Goku wasn't even a true martial artist until he met Roshi. Roshi's training changed him profoundly, as did Kami's training. Roshi instilled Goku's drive to never stop improving even when he seemingly reaches the top, while Kami installed the more spiritual side of martial arts into Goku that separates him from his Saiyan brethren. Even the Goku we see in Z goes through a multitude of character changes, because he transitions into a general of sorts for the Z-fighters. He kind of loses this particular characteristic in Super which makes him seem more flat than in Z.

Also the concept of a complete character arc is just silly. I mean, you can close one aspect of a character's overall arc, sure, but that doesn't mean there's no other meaningful ways a character can change or other arcs to experience even minor ones. It just means you can think of anything for them either due to lack of interest or lack of imagination. The whole notion, and I hear it time and time again here, is just flawed. I mean, I had a high school character arc that I completed, it changed me profoundly so I guess that's all there is for me. Nope, not a college arc or a career arc or a hobo arc or a marriage arc. Time to hang it up and be an ineffective background character in this story called life because I'll never have any major changes after my big high school arc. I don't understand how one can make that claim and accept that Goku still has more substance to add to the story. Characters like Vegeta, Tien, and Piccolo possess the exact same goals as Goku but people say their arcs are over, yet this doesn't apply to Goku? I mean, if anything, characters with complete arcs become flat characters, no?

Honestly, Mark confuses flat with underdeveloped. Goku remains underdeveloped. And its because the story doesn't present any unique challenges for Goku outside of "punch this bad guy" or "figure out the best way to punch this bad guy". Any time the story comes close to challenging Goku's way of thinking or his decision making, Toriyama-san quickly negates it by not addressing it and having it all work out in Goku's favor anyway such as with the ending of the ToP. The story goes out if its way to do this all the time.

The last time Toriyama-san presented a situation where Goku (briefly) had internal conflict was when Piccolo questioned him during the Gohan vs. Cell fight and even then Goku was proven right, but there were ultimately consequences which is why I tend to like the more mature Z era Goku. He always seemed prepared to deal with the consequences of his actions and to a degree planned ahead. In Z, in another evolution of his character, he even decided that the Earth needed new heroes and transitioned to a master role.
That's why I think Vegeta needs to go. Unlike the other characters, Super continues to insist on using him even though he's past the peak of his development, and hasn't been able to come up with anything new. At best it's constant reminders that he's actually a good person now ("MY BULMA") at worst you get the garbage Final Explosion rehash against Toppo. If that's all they're going to do with him, I see no reason for him to stick around. Give Goku some new foils to bounce off. Super's introduced a bunch of potential candidates, or they could come up with someone new.
I would definitely like to see new foils (like Hit), but the blame isn't the fact that there's nothing new for Vegeta, the blame is that the writer has nothing new for Vegeta. First off, limiting him to Earth when half his life was spent in space was a mistake. Vegeta should still have some intergalactic baggage to wrap up. Half of Vegeta's development in Super has been stellar, but I think his face turn is too complete. He should still have a little trouble with Earth morality. Toriyama should give us a reminder of his bloodthirst. Have him kill some henchmen every now and then like he did with Pui Pui and maybe have to work on mercy. If the Tagoma stuff in the anime was better animated and a little more drawn out, it'd be perfect. But also, Vegeta has this great new mentor role, why haven't they dived into that? Think of how much he could change U6 if he met with the king there. His relationship with Cabba felt forced in the ToP, but that's because it wasn't developed beforehand.

And finally, I really really dig Vegeta's atonement for the Namekians he killed. That's really gotten me invested in the character already in this arc and that's because Toyotaro took a minor detail that was major to someone like me and expanded on it. It's something Toriyama rarely does. He doesn't seem to inspect his own work like we do to mine out the full potential of his story like writers like Togashi, Oda, or Kishimoto tend to do.
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Re: Characters you wish were completely removed from Super/sequels

Post by BWri » Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:27 pm

SsjCookie wrote:I always wished to see a spin off of the next generation (Gohan, kid Trunks, Goten, Pan, Marron and Bra) too give them the character development they deserve.

I also loved to see a Future trunks spin-off that revolves purely on his universe and time-line.
That one would need more nuance and grimdark sort of writing. The tone of the Black arc would fit perfectly, but I'm not sure Toriyama-san could sustain something like that. If it was a Toei property with some Toriyama involvement like the Bardock special, I'd be 100% behind it. The contributions they made to History of Trunks made it 10000% better.

And I'm still waiting for the new generation myself. Super is spoiling Goten and Trunks for me, so I'd want to go far in the future like DBO. I want to get far away from this era of power level bloat so that I can believe in a whole wide world of eligible challengers and endless adventure.
Torturephile wrote: I would quite be down with it. Gohan hasn't ever struck me much as quite the character in general, nowadays with the exception of the early Buu arc episodes with all his high school and superhero shtick, when his character truly shines for me.
Same. I could really watch an entire anime about Gohan's wacky high school antics. It's a shame it was cut short by the plot. His personality never really got to show after that because he became serious Gohan then cocky Gohan. Superhero Gohan at least separates him from the rest.
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Re: Characters you wish were completely removed from Super/sequels

Post by SsjCookie » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:52 am

BWri wrote: I saw that video too and I see where Mark was going but I think he mishandles his points. For one, a flat character is only as interesting as the world they inhabit. They often heavily rely on other characters around them to keep the story interesting. To a degree Dragon Ball has always been like this, but I would argue that Goku's motivations seemed stronger back then, likely because you could believe there was a world of opponents stronger than him. Now, side characters aren't nearly as developed or well-rounded as they used to be and it takes a lot to believe there's anyone as strong as Goku out there. That creates a 3-fold problem for the new series.


Yep, I also saw that video.
According to that video there are 3 types of character arcs, the positive, the negative and the flat characters.
Goku is identified as the flat because his character from the start always stays the same, his personality is never influenced by either negative or positive happenings in his life.
Goku remains "pure" like when he was a child.
There's nothing wrong with being a flat main character as long as it has a strong side cast to carry that character.
In DBZ this was always the case.
In Super, the side cast played a significant lesser important role and focused a lot more on Goku himself, with Vegeta serving as an opposite counter part for Goku.
And it feels....entitled somehow.
And people wonder why they call it the Goku and Vegeta show by now.
BWri wrote: I don't understand how one can make that claim and accept that Goku still has more substance to add to the story. Characters like Vegeta, Tien, and Piccolo possess the exact same goals as Goku but people say their arcs are over, yet this doesn't apply to Goku? I mean, if anything, characters with complete arcs become flat characters, no?
Exactly, the character of Goku is even more unsubstantial in his development then the others.
I mean, what is next for his character to achieve?
Goku can only fight so many foes and tournaments before it becomes boringly repetitive.
The only way it would make his journey interesting again ... is when he would have a negative arc.
Example: Goku gets hit in the head and reverts back to his original Saiyan nature.
His family and friends must find a way to save him and prevent him from destroying the earth at the same time.
Gohan, Goten, Vegeta,Trunks and the rest of the cast are forced to become relevant again because they are in a situation they have never been in before.
And this time Goku is their enemy instead of their savior.

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Re: Characters you wish were completely removed from Super/sequels

Post by Oniman » Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:12 pm

Chaozu for once.
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Re: Characters you wish were completely removed from Super/sequels

Post by coola » Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:02 am

Problem i have with Goku, is that, in my opinion, he became worse, Kid Goku was also naive and Innocent and wanted to fight strong guys, but he was never an asshole who would let go someone so he can fight him again, or free powerful enemy, and have nerve to say that "new generation should handle it". And i get this Goku is how Toriyama sees him, but honestly, i dont like this direction, and I'm gonna take GT Goku over Buu/Super Goku anyday ;)
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Re: Characters you wish were completely removed from Super/sequels

Post by ruler9871 » Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:08 pm

coola wrote:Problem i have with Goku, is that, in my opinion, he became worse, Kid Goku was also naive and Innocent and wanted to fight strong guys, but he was never an asshole who would let go someone so he can fight him again, or free powerful enemy, and have nerve to say that "new generation should handle it". And i get this Goku is how Toriyama sees him, but honestly, i dont like this direction, and I'm gonna take GT Goku over Buu/Super Goku anyday ;)
Kid Goku was a massive troll who would only get serious with a villain if he killed a friend of his (Tao and King Piccolo). He was always an asshole (and as a Kid also allowed several dangerous foes to escape instead of killing them like Colonel Silver, General Blue and Murasaki). And GT Kid Goku was extremely obnoxious and forced, there's no way he's a character than Buu arc Goku (the best written Goku).

The New Generation should be able to handle threats when he's not around. He can't keep saving the world forever. The Buu saga would have be avoided if Gohan trained after the Cell Games.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Characters you wish were completely removed from Super/sequels

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:21 pm

coola wrote:Problem i have with Goku, is that, in my opinion, he became worse, Kid Goku was also naive and Innocent and wanted to fight strong guys, but he was never an asshole who would let go someone so he can fight him again, or free powerful enemy, and have nerve to say that "new generation should handle it". And i get this Goku is how Toriyama sees him, but honestly, i dont like this direction, and I'm gonna take GT Goku over Buu/Super Goku anyday ;)
Hold on, what did Buu Saga Goku do wrong? He was one of the better versions.

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Re: Characters you wish were completely removed from Super/sequels

Post by coola » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:53 am

SaiyanGod117 wrote:
coola wrote:Problem i have with Goku, is that, in my opinion, he became worse, Kid Goku was also naive and Innocent and wanted to fight strong guys, but he was never an asshole who would let go someone so he can fight him again, or free powerful enemy, and have nerve to say that "new generation should handle it". And i get this Goku is how Toriyama sees him, but honestly, i dont like this direction, and I'm gonna take GT Goku over Buu/Super Goku anyday ;)
Hold on, what did Buu Saga Goku do wrong? He was one of the better versions.
He was one who free Buu, becasue he didnt want to hurt Vegeta pride, and then had nerve to force Goten and Trunks to handle it, his line of defense was "I'm already dead, its new generation who should handle it" yeah, except if he wasnt around, Vegeta wouldnt get obsessed with Kakarotto again and he and Gohan would take care of Babidi.
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Re: Characters you wish were completely removed from Super/sequels

Post by louisascommie » Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:37 pm

Mr popo

And introduce a positive black character portrayal

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Re: Characters you wish were completely removed from Super/sequels

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:21 am

coola wrote: He was one who free Buu, becasue he didnt want to hurt Vegeta
I'm pretty sure it was Vegeta's fault, after all, he did kill a stadium full of citizens and knocked out Goku once Buu was freed, even though Goku wanted to team up to stop him.
pride, and then had nerve to force Goten and Trunks to handle it, his line of defense was "I'm already dead, its new generation who should handle it" yeah, except if he wasnt around,
Although he could have went about it a better way, he had good intentions in mind.
Vegeta wouldnt get obsessed with Kakarotto again and he and Gohan would take care of Babidi.
That's not Goku's fault.

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