What Would Be The Greatest Blow To A Saiyan's Pride?

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Steven Bloodriver
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What Would Be The Greatest Blow To A Saiyan's Pride?

Post by Steven Bloodriver » Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:27 am

What do you think is the ultimate insult to the pride of a Saiyan? Like for an example, is there something so damaging to let's say Vegeta that even his glorified pride would be taken aback?

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Re: What Would Be The Greatest Blow To A Saiyan's Pride?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:34 pm

Becoming a powerless human?
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Re: What Would Be The Greatest Blow To A Saiyan's Pride?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:42 pm

Since Saiyans are a primitive and savage species decent only at fighting, naturally an utter and humiliating defeat in battle would be the greatest blow to a Saiyan's pride. Just look at Vegeta when he was annihilated by Zamasu during their first confrontation, he was shattered. Not only was he constantly berated by Zamasu, he was nearly killed and also called "a simple appetizer before the main course".

I also believe that Vegeta's pride was broken when he learned what Zamasu did to Goku. After all, Zamasu pretty much mocked the entire Saiyan species by using the body of one of their own to commit genocide on countless mortal civilizations. Zamasu viewed the Saiyans were just disposable tools, animals (which they are), not actual people, and that must hurt.
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Re: What Would Be The Greatest Blow To A Saiyan's Pride?

Post by BWri » Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:27 pm

Steven Bloodriver wrote:What do you think is the ultimate insult to the pride of a Saiyan? Like for an example, is there something so damaging to let's say Vegeta that even his glorified pride would be taken aback?
Seeing Super Namekian Piccolo up close gave Vegeta a brief identity crisis in the Cell arc. He was so shocked and distraught that he instantly dropped his SSJ form. So something like that, being made inferior to those they consider inferior. It happened when he initially struggled with low class Goku too. I would say Vegeta exemplifies Saiyan pride so this would likely apply to all Saiyans. We did see this with Nappa and Raditz.
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Re: What Would Be The Greatest Blow To A Saiyan's Pride?

Post by ulisa » Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:48 am

I’m going to take a hint from DBO and say: growing old. Specifically, aging past their prime so that they cannot grow any stronger. In fact, they grow weaker despite their best efforts simply due to the betrayal of their body. Hence, most go for a final fight before their decline to go out “still on top.”
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Re: What Would Be The Greatest Blow To A Saiyan's Pride?

Post by ironfist2020 » Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:10 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:Since Saiyans are a primitive and savage species decent only at fighting, naturally an utter and humiliating defeat in battle would be the greatest blow to a Saiyan's pride. Just look at Vegeta when he was annihilated by Zamasu during their first confrontation, he was shattered. Not only was he constantly berated by Zamasu, he was nearly killed and also called "a simple appetizer before the main course".

I also believe that Vegeta's pride was broken when he learned what Zamasu did to Goku. After all, Zamasu pretty much mocked the entire Saiyan species by using the body of one of their own to commit genocide on countless mortal civilizations. Zamasu viewed the Saiyans were just disposable tools, animals (which they are), not actual people, and that must hurt.
Dont you think you take the zamasu thing little too far

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Re: What Would Be The Greatest Blow To A Saiyan's Pride?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:03 am

ironfist2020 wrote:
SupremeKai25 wrote:Since Saiyans are a primitive and savage species decent only at fighting, naturally an utter and humiliating defeat in battle would be the greatest blow to a Saiyan's pride. Just look at Vegeta when he was annihilated by Zamasu during their first confrontation, he was shattered. Not only was he constantly berated by Zamasu, he was nearly killed and also called "a simple appetizer before the main course".

I also believe that Vegeta's pride was broken when he learned what Zamasu did to Goku. After all, Zamasu pretty much mocked the entire Saiyan species by using the body of one of their own to commit genocide on countless mortal civilizations. Zamasu viewed the Saiyans were just disposable tools, animals (which they are), not actual people, and that must hurt.
Dont you think you take the zamasu thing little too far
Zamasu is the one who humiliated Saiyans the most alongside Freeza, that's why I mentioned him.
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Re: What Would Be The Greatest Blow To A Saiyan's Pride?

Post by Simere » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:34 am

To be ignored.

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Re: What Would Be The Greatest Blow To A Saiyan's Pride?

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:29 pm

I think SupremeKai got it right; a humiliating defeat would be the worst blow to a Saiyan's pride, after all, they're warriors, and all they do is fight. Just look at when pro fighters in real life lose a match, some of them drop on their knees and start crying or cover their heads in shame. While being ignored by someone would just make them want to fight whoever it may be more.

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Re: What Would Be The Greatest Blow To A Saiyan's Pride?

Post by MaGyunia » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:46 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:Since Saiyans are a primitive and savage species decent only at fighting, naturally an utter and humiliating defeat in battle would be the greatest blow to a Saiyan's pride. Just look at Vegeta when he was annihilated by Zamasu during their first confrontation, he was shattered. Not only was he constantly berated by Zamasu, he was nearly killed and also called "a simple appetizer before the main course".

I also believe that Vegeta's pride was broken when he learned what Zamasu did to Goku. After all, Zamasu pretty much mocked the entire Saiyan species by using the body of one of their own to commit genocide on countless mortal civilizations. Zamasu viewed the Saiyans were just disposable tools, animals (which they are), not actual people, and that must hurt.
Is that really all you can come up with? Zamasu's interaction with Vegeta as a Saiya-jin and his pride? After 291 episodes of Dragon Ball Z (not to mention the movies and certainly not GT...)? Saiya-jins have numerous common traits as a species, but certain specific members of the race are special and/or take certain characteristics to the extreme, such as Vegeta and his pride which comes close to/borders (or has bordered, at least) on insanity/mental imbalance. I could pick at least ten other "special" Saiya-jins with numerous different and varying characteristics, both "positive" and "negative" (it can nearly all be put into perspective...), but regarding and focusing only on the concept of "pride", and taking on the most obvious case, Vegeta, we should distinguish between two "types" of pride: what he has referred to recurrently as "Saiya-jin pride" (dating back to the Freeza saga, for exemple when, despite despising Goku, he uses his last words to put all the responsibility and entrust the entirety of the Saiya-jin "pride" and legacy on him so that he, the last remaining pure Saiya-jin, defeats Freeza and avenges the entire race - at that crucial, ending point in his life, it doesn't really matter that much who it is, even Goku, with all that entails and means and pressuposes, what matters is that it's a Saiya-jin who crushes Freeza in the "name" of all Saiya-jins killed one after the other by him. "Saiya-jin no te de..." ("please, defeat Freeza... by your Saiyan hand..."). This is Saiya-jin pride. It doesn't matter if it's Goku either who defeats Jiren and saves all that's at stake at the Tournament of Power either (also very specifically stated by Vegeta in his words), and, even more, it doesn't matter that it's Goku either who ultimately overcomes the most powerful gods/entities in existence ever in the entire multiverse, what matters for Vegeta is that it's a Saiya-jin (if it can't be him, let it be a Saiya-jin, even if it's Goku). Raditz displays, to some degree and taking into account obvious diferences in matters of degree, the same attitude, just as an example. Goku finally understands what this business of "Saiya-jin pride" means during his fight with Freeza on Namek, both before and after turing SSJ.

The other "concept" of "pride", or potential blow to one's pride as member of the Saiya-jin species, is the pride we all have to different, varying degrees in real life and in fiction, including the universe of Dragon Ball, which doesn't really need, I assume, an explanation.

Getting back to instances in which long, long, long before Zamasu was the main menace, there were numerous (in fact, the list is absolutely immense) instances of huge blows to a Saiya-jin's pride. In the most obvious case, Vegeta, pride is basically being superior to others. All others. Number one, below no one, regardless of who, what they are or what their status is. Given the fact he has been beaten such in the way you described and "humiliated" in words by so many others (main antagonists of a saga and even their respective underlings - Goku, Zarbon, Recoome, Freeza, #18, Cell, all versions of Buu he fought, although in the latter's case the antagonist, despite being the main one of the entire arc, doesn't even have a proper "conscience" to make the defeat even more hurtful by, for exemple, taunting him after/during defeating him... - and setting aside the quick (as everything in the movies from the nineties....) beatings he took from Metal Cooler, Super #13, Broly, Bojack, Janenba, Hildegarn, even Hatchiyakku..., and taking also into consideration the fact that, to Vegeta, being surpassed in strength is basically unbearable to his pride (especially if it's by Goku, as perfectly illustrated in episode 229, already as Majin Vegeta with one of the perfect speeches which demonstrate and illustrate what Vegeta's character deep down always is after the experiences he went through after meeting Goku and co.), such as when he thinks of how infuriating it is to finally have become a Super Saiya-jin after so much enormous effort and suffering and quickly after, in a matter of just a few episodes, being humiliated by #18 and surpassed not only by her but also by #17, #16, Piccolo, Cell and being on somewhat equal terms in terms of battle power to Goku and Future Trunks (quite a big list all of a sudden, huh? especially if you take into account that mere episodes before that Piccolo speculated Vegeta might have had finally surpassed Goku and had indeed become the strongest warrior known when he thrashed #19).

Basically, if we're talking about the very specific case of Vegeta (which applies to nearly all Saiya-jins, although to much lesser degrees, in most cases, and with certain nuances), who is the definition of Saiya-jin pride and the perfect illustration of what it means, along with the more "normal" and "real" concept of pride we are all familiar with to varying degrees, and refraining from the exercise of putting this list in order of importance, and finally answering your question in a more direct manner, the biggest "blow" a Saiya-jin/Vegeta can be dealt to his pride, regardless of whether it's his personal concept of pride, the "Saiya-jin collective pride" I mentioned and, to some degree, detailed and explained, or the basic notion of pride we're all familiar with and feel to varying degrees, is being surpassed in raw strength/battle power by anyone (with an emphasis on Goku, for obvious reasons for any individual who knows the very basics of Dragon Ball... and this dynamic became a continuous obsession bordering on the mentally dangerous and imbalance episode after episode, arc after arc, major development after major development, enemy after enemy, etc., along with his temporary but relatively understandable obsession to become a SSJ which I addressed, along with other pieces of info contained in this reply in another post I made a few weeks ago more or less drawing on this subject in general but also in detail) - I believe I don't need to make any sort of list of instances in which this happened, regardless of the size or detail of said list... -, being defeated in battle by anybody, but especially, for good and different reasons behind it, by a few guys (according to the logic that one of the definitions and concepts of "pride" for Vegeta is being stronger than others in terms of sheer, raw power and strength/ability to win in a physical fight/battle, which makes perfect sense...) and, which he also mentioned more than once (I'm remembering especially one occasion, but it's not important to specify right now at this point which one it is...), winning with the help of others (the logic/dynamics/way of thinking and behaving/"honor" code according to which he would prefer to die fighting alone than to win with the help of anybody, regardless of who he his (especially Goku, yet again...), no matter how small that help is, or with the help of anything "extra", outside the sheer training - power - fight sequence (as illustrated by the way he reacts to the possibility of Frost being declassified - he doesn't want that, he wants to beat him in a fight, and let him use his dirty tactics as much as he wants, it will only make Vegeta hurt him even more, löl, or feeling disgusted at Toppo's instance of sacrificing his values - regardless of what they are - for the sake of more power.

We could go on and on on this topic, and I'm sorry for focusing so much on Vegeta, but I can always add more to this topic and subject later on.

Just another piece of info that has crossed my mind more than once: I would say that if he had only two alternatives, Vegeta would prefer to refrain from being number one, above everyone and everything else in the entire existence of the multiverse, so long as he was above Goku, such is the obsession with surpassing him, which has known several stages and diminshed gradually but was always there and will always be until the day - which will never come, obviously... - when he surpasses Goku for good without any chance of being, like always, outclassed again and again, other than being number one in the entire history of existence of everything and anything (and everybody and anybody) without Goku in the picture (it's quite relatively easy to postulate such a scenario just for argument's sake...). This is also illustrated when he vows to never fight again after Goku dies in the Cell arc. And this particular "event", or "decision", or reaction, call it whatever you will, has more meaning to it than initially might be perceived, now that I think of it, in terms of the ever-changing and simultaneously always the same dynamics in the Vegeta vs/and Goku relationship dynamics, especially in terms of how Vegeta perceives, acts, behaves towards Goku and what he thinks of him and feels about him much, much, incomparably more than the other way around.

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Re: What Would Be The Greatest Blow To A Saiyan's Pride?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:35 pm

Is that really all you can come up with? Zamasu's interaction with Vegeta as a Saiya-jin and his pride? After 291 episodes of Dragon Ball Z (not to mention the movies and certainly not GT...)? Saiya-jins have numerous common traits as a species, but certain specific members of the race are special and/or take certain characteristics to the extreme, such as Vegeta and his pride which comes close to/borders (or has bordered, at least) on insanity/mental imbalance. I could pick at least ten other "special" Saiya-jins with numerous different and varying characteristics, both "positive" and "negative" (it can nearly all be put into perspective...)
Or maybe I just didn't want to write an essay?
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