Did anyone else found the ToP Android 17 forced and unappealing?

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Did anyone else found the ToP Android 17 forced and unappealing?

Post by Green_Goblin » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:06 pm

**With all due respect, if you're fans of this incarnation of Android 17, do not reply here, it's not like I'm trying to get banned by annoying someone, just to see if others think like me**

Something I had been bothered with during the original/"subbed" run of the Tournament of Power was the writing of Android 17. Ever since he debuted in Super it felt as if they're pushing the envelope too much on this character who since the Cell Games had been all forgotten about (a cameo in the Genki Dama against Kid Buu isn't anything more than an easter egg, just as Launch and Android 8 alongside the other DB characters' cameo then) and making it clear he'll be the trump card of this whole ordeal (Last Man Standing/MVP/Wish at the end). If I could be honest, he shouldn't be THAT powerful to begin with, as all he did was to stop poachers with low power levels - having him stronger than Goku's SSJ 2 by Age 780 is preposterous (a year earlier base Goku and Vegeta were WAAAAAAAAAAY stronger than Tagoma who was stronger than 14 years fused Super Namekian and trained Piccolo - And 17 is somehow MUCH MUCH stronger than 100 times that level?), but that's not the major problem I have with him as of how he is now.

There wasn't a single time he did something by mistake, wasn't close to get eliminated (sans that Anilaza fight which he eventually won, ofc) even spending episodes against a GoD Toppo by countering his Hakai energy with mere Katchi Katchin rocks like there is no tomorrow, sneaking up on Jiren and managing to hurt him (the first one to harm/injure him) and always talking like that "cool badass" (shooting at the Kamikaze Fireballs during their transformation process) and "wise-ass" (whenever he fights someone with dime-store cynicism). He was all over the place during all this arc and was even placed above established cast members like Gohan with his rudeness (scolding him for trying to aid 17 against God of Destruction "Mode" Toppo with the excuse that he shouldn't try to step in "since they've never worked together" despite the fact that the scenario of teaming up with new fighters happens all the time with new threats with people on the SAME LEVEL, as the two of them are at according to Toshio Yoshitaka, coordinating their attacks to hit their target together).

So who else here had a rough time with this character's new writing?

Edit: added a slipped out word.
Last edited by Green_Goblin on Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Did anyone else found the ToP Android 17 forced and unappealing?

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:31 pm

I am convinced Hiroyuki Sakurada locked Toriyama in a room until he agreed to make 17 the star/savior of the ToP

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Re: Did anyone else found the ToP Android 17 forced and unappealing?

Post by Xeogran » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:44 pm

I personally miss 17's "gaming" side. I know he grew up, became a dad and all, but that part of his character was more fun than being a Park Ranger.

You also forgot to mention he somehow tamed the Cell Jrs in the manga; despite the fact he should've been weaker than then when he did (right after the Cell Games)

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Re: Did anyone else found the ToP Android 17 forced and unappealing?

Post by Green_Goblin » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:54 pm

Xeogran wrote:You also forgot to mention he somehow tamed the Cell Jrs in the manga; despite the fact he should've been weaker than then when he did (right after the Cell Games)
This didn't came to me at hindsight when looking back at his ToP incarnation, I took that Cell Juniors' taming with great boredness and disbelief of how low will they go to justify his new power boost, it was like Toyotaro was given member berries and was told to draw the most cheesy thing he can think of in regards of wildlife and old Dragon Ball era. TBH I'd be fine if he had tamed a flock of crazy InoShikaCho like monsters, if they had aimed at causing us feel nostalgia with those bonus pages.

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Re: Did anyone else found the ToP Android 17 forced and unappealing?

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:33 pm

Definitely, it's the same reason why I no longer like FT Trunks as much, continually forcing a character onto the audience and into the story especially in scenes they have no place being in is one of fastest ways to get me to dislike them.

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Re: Did anyone else found the ToP Android 17 forced and unappealing?

Post by Green_Goblin » Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:50 pm

SaiyanGod117 wrote:Definitely, it's the same reason why I no longer like FT Trunks as much, continually forcing a character onto the audience and into the story especially in scenes they have no place being in is one of fastest ways to get me to dislike them.
He should've been current SSJ tier at best (and even that's pushing it really high considering Goku and Vegeta's current power levels at base) and should've been eliminated in the later middle phase of the tournament. But that's just realistic and consistent power scaling based writing.

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Re: Did anyone else found the ToP Android 17 forced and unappealing?

Post by Tai Lung » Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:09 pm

Green_Goblin wrote: So who else here had a rough time with this character's new writing?
is questionable like everything related to "power level" in DB does, is forced yeah .. and unappealing? ... do not really.

we go .. that the majority only remembered 17 like the brother of 18, the last fight of piccolo or the android that was absorbed first.

before the character is almost forgotten even though it is assumed that unlike launch and android 8 was an important character and the subplot of his now new life is not mentioned at all.

in the TOP
Did he make mistakes? yes they almost take it out 3 times
-damon almost takes it off the platform but is saved by goku
-anilaza almost takes it off from the platform is saved by 18
-his strategy to be elimando with toppo fails and if do not eliminate. it is because Gohan was afraid to kill him if he continued with the kamehameha.

the only thing that I notice is annoying is his strategy in combat literally taken out of nothing. out of that in development and personality I like more the current 17 the previous one seems boring one of the reasons why his sister was more popular than him or even 16 for his death scene.

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Re: Did anyone else found the ToP Android 17 forced and unappealing?

Post by CJStriker_CBR » Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:51 pm

SaiyanGod117 wrote:Definitely, it's the same reason why I no longer like FT Trunks as much, continually forcing a character onto the audience and into the story especially in scenes they have no place being in is one of fastest ways to get me to dislike them.
Questions, I like theses points to be explained in further details cause I greatly wonder about them at times when it especially comes to future plots in DB shows;

What does it mean to have a character, espically a pasted established character returning back, seem forced onto an audience?!

Especially since an audience can never seem to agree with each other on many matters, personal tastes being one of them?

What is it that the writing does wrong to do this and what does writing have to do to avoid this problem when bring back other characters?

How do you determine, while I have my own ideas, of how a character in DB should have a power-up, how should writers go about it?
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Re: Did anyone else found the ToP Android 17 forced and unappealing?

Post by Green_Goblin » Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:54 am

Tai Lung wrote: in the TOP
Did he make mistakes? yes they almost take it out 3 times
-damon almost takes it off the platform but is saved by goku
-anilaza almost takes it off from the platform is saved by 18
-his strategy to be elimando with toppo fails and if do not eliminate. it is because Gohan was afraid to kill him if he continued with the kamehameha.
Even when he did "mistakes" (Anilaza was just too powerful for him and Damon had caught him off-guard) he walked out of them as triumphant. Eventually Toppo was saved for Vegeta so no matter what would've happened with Gohan's Kamehameha, Vegeta would have get his second fiddle share piece of meat to eliminate. And should I point back to the fake self-destructions (in the anime I really hoped he died, when it originally aired, as his whole writing was annoying) which in the manga were revelaed to be a spoof since he knew he doesn't have the bomb since Krillin's wish back in the Cell Games' aftermath (13 years prior).
CJStriker_CBR wrote:How do you determine, while I have my own ideas, of how a character in DB should have a power-up, how should writers go about it?
The thread-related answer will be: NOT LIKE WHAT HAD BEEN DONE WITH ANDROID 17. For real, I felt like this was DB Super's take on "Super 17" of him becoming unexplainedly ridiculously powerful to challenge the Saiyan heroes on their top game (SSJ 4 tier / SSB tier) without stepping back/breaking a sweat, just as the Copy-Vegeta Arc had the nod towards Baby Vegeta:

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Re: Did anyone else found the ToP Android 17 forced and unappealing?

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:14 am

The only part of the writing of #17 that didn't sit well with me was when he blew himself up and somehow survived. That was stupid. Everything else was fine.

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Re: Did anyone else found the ToP Android 17 forced and unappealing?

Post by Kataphrut » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:22 am

I was cool with him for most of it. The only time it got grating was in that stretch from about 119-123 where they gave him a string of improbably cool moments while also writing out Gohan after he'd been set up fairly well to be a big player in the arc. But then his admirable stands against Toppo and Jiren, and eventual comeback to win the whole thing made me happy again. It felt like a genuine underdog performance, and the fact that they went so far as to have him win it was cool. If you're going to go in, might as well go all-in.

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Re: Did anyone else found the ToP Android 17 forced and unappealing?

Post by BWri » Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:37 pm

#17's always been a favorite character of mine so I have very mixed feelings about this. On one hand seeing him back again with a new look and stronger than I could even imagine him was great. On the other hand, we got no real explanation for why he was so strong and him being shoehorned into the arcs best moments after did bother me more and more. Overall though, I loved #17's role in the arc and all his big moments (aside from the dumb self-destruct that didn't ... self destruct him).

I only needed one thing to not be conflicted and that's a proper explanation for his strength. Because, if he's this strong from park activities, then #18 should be GoD tier from fighting universe busters head-on and training intensely with the strongest human on the planet and learning ki control by mastering his techniques.

But outside of that, once you accept his ridiculous power scaling (which is the toughest part), most of what he does makes sense and is awesome. His unlimited energy finally felt like a BIG advantage. And because of it, he was able to fight above his weight class in what was essentially an endurance match. His intelligence and craftiness as a fighter in the ToP was something I've been missing from DB fights, so it was great to see that and have a relevant character embody the "smart fighter" trope since Gohan isn't doing it. And everything he did just looked freakin' cool.

The only thing that was missing from #17's return was more of a rivalry with Piccolo, but the power scaling in the show is so messed up that this couldn't happen.

I guess another negative would be the fact that such a fighting novice would be so good at fighting compared to lifelong martial artists. I'm not sure if Gero programmed him with some sort of combat instincts or if his only advantage over the Z-fighters was his power level. Toriyama-san never went into that. Out of everyone there, he did have the least fighting experience, even less than Gohan, yet he absolutely fought the smartest and best out of anyone, aside from maybe Goku who he probably ties with.
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Re: Did anyone else found the ToP Android 17 forced and unappealing?

Post by Kinokima » Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:38 pm

I thought he was too perfect. He was cool and composed and had no noticeable flaws that affected him or his performance in the TOP in anyway. The only thing that changed was his wish from wanting a boat to saving the other Universes. That could have been great development if we saw the progress of that change but we never did.

I don’t dislike him as a character but for having such an important role I wish he had more of a character arc.

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Re: Did anyone else found the ToP Android 17 forced and unappealing?

Post by Tai Lung » Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:44 pm

Green_Goblin wrote:
Tai Lung wrote: in the TOP
Did he make mistakes? yes they almost take it out 3 times
-damon almost takes it off the platform but is saved by goku
-anilaza almost takes it off from the platform is saved by 18
-his strategy to be elimando with toppo fails and if do not eliminate. it is because Gohan was afraid to kill him if he continued with the kamehameha.
Even when he did "mistakes" (Anilaza was just too powerful for him and Damon had caught him off-guard) he walked out of them as triumphant. Eventually Toppo was saved for Vegeta so no matter what would've happened with Gohan's Kamehameha, Vegeta would have get his second fiddle share piece of meat to eliminate. And should I point back to the fake self-destructions (in the anime I really hoped he died, when it originally aired, as his whole writing was annoying) which in the manga were revelaed to be a spoof since he knew he doesn't have the bomb since Krillin's wish back in the Cell Games' aftermath (13 years prior).
if his team had not rescued him then he would have lost at those 3 times.
if he did not realize 17 another warrior would have noticed how they detected the I'm- visible warrior. but that was because they gave him another chance.
with anilaza it would be the same and only for the weakness that this one had.
with toppo? I think that if it matters if 17 lost would be
toppo god and dyspo vs frieza and gohan
you can not say that he does not make "mistakes" so ... he even is dies of fear against toppo to which his could not do anything face him. until it vegeta took care of the problem.

I it bothers me manga, 17 won without deserving it and
how he destroyed himself if he does not have a bomb? because it was seen that he did it.

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Re: Did anyone else found the ToP Android 17 forced and unappealing?

Post by BWri » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:36 pm

CJStriker_CBR wrote:
What does it mean to have a character, espically a pasted established character returning back, seem forced onto an audience?!
I think the main thing, CJStriker is the "forced" part. Let's take 4 characters that are controversial. Android 17, Cabba, Kale, & Califla. Out of these 4 Cabba is the least controversial. This is probably because he was chosen as one of the strongest fighters by Champa and Vados and he's a Saiyan. Him being portrayed on the level of Vegeta is strange at this point but not so offensive since he is considered one of the strongest in another universe, but he also doesn't take up a lot of screen time. Once his single episode is done, he goes back to the background. He's just there for the story.

So with Cabba, we have a fair power boost that makes some sense and a level of screen time that makes sense for his role is the arc. Fair power, fair screen time. There seems to be no agenda there other than to tell a story.

Now Kale and Califla. They're part of a package and I'll review them as such. Introduced in a way that makes you question their strength. Lot's of questions. Why weren't they chosen for the last tournament? Where did their strength come from? They're only in a street gang, why would they need to be so strong (as opposed to Cabba who is a galactic peacekeeper dealing with threats in space). Them being presented as stronger than Cabba right away seems like an agenda especially if we don't get a good explanation for why they weren't in the last tournament. Then when they start learning SSJ forms more advanced than his and faster, it REALLY seems forced. Honestly, if the girls were already Super Saiyans at this point and well trained with it, it would be more acceptable since nobody knows about them anyway. But because they get all this power so fast we know that they will have a big role in the show.

Then that turns out to be more than true in the ToP, with no less than 5 episodes being solely devoted to them, when at that point legacy characters like Tien, Piccolo, & Gohan couldn't even get a single episode. So unlike with Cabba, their screentime and power boosts are so over-the-top that we can just feel how much the writers want us to care for these characters. It goes beyond what's needed for the story and turns into an advertisement. The story didn't need 4 episodes of Goku fighting Kale and Caulifla, but the merchandisers did if they wanted to promote Kale, Califla, and Kefla merch.

Now with #17 it's very similar to Kale and Califla. It starts with the power boost. That's the first sign you know they are pushing a character. Strong characters get people invested, so its the easiest way to create a popular character. Look at Jiren, not much characterization outside of being strong. Then they just gave him more screen time and moments than a background character like him would normally receive. It's that combination that makes it seem forced, especially when it lacks a good explanation to begin with.
Especially since an audience can never seem to agree with each other on many matters, personal tastes being one of them?
This is a good point. But I think what takes it beyond personal tastes is how its presented in the story. For instance, most of us would agree that Goku's training and power growth ahead of his battle with Nappa and Vegeta was not forced. Less of us would agree on the Zenkai he got before he fought Frieza on Namek. That's because with one, he was clearly training his skills to prepare for a specific threat while with the other his body and/or ki magically jumped up 33x stronger to fight. Both are plot based strength increases, but one is more obviously designed to put Goku in the role to fight the main bad guy. One fits (unnoticed) within the the story and the other sticks out like a sore thumb.
What is it that the writing does wrong to do this and what does writing have to do to avoid this problem when bring back other characters?
Just give them a good reason for having this increased role. Nobody was mad when Piccolo got a lot of screentime as the leader and strongest in the android arc, because it was setup and his power boost made sense within the story. Tien likewise had a lot of screentime in the Piccolo Daimao arc, becuase he was making his own preparations to get stronger. Vegeta gaining SSJ offscreen and coming into the story as the strongest also made sense given Vegeta's character and motivations along with the current state of the Z-Fighters.

It just has to make sense within the story. #17, Kale, and Califla ... and even Cabba I'd say, needed more buildup. We're at the part of the show where very few mortals should be above Frieza level let alone close to Goku and Vegeta in power. Frieza was a god before gods, and to have so many just casually have this level of power is just silly. These new characters just need to be built up more so we can understand why they are so strong. In the case of #17 and I'll add Frieza here too, when a character is gone a while and comes back, it makes sense they'd be much stronger and its a good idea to do this, but these characters still need something unique and awesome to their training to make them greater than training madmen like Goku and Vegeta.
How do you determine, while I have my own ideas, of how a character in DB should have a power-up, how should writers go about it?
It just needs to make sense. Or at the very least be compelling. Frieza getting stronger than gods in four months of training, ridiculous, but I could still believe it if his training was shown to be the hardest we've ever seen in the show. Instead, we saw target practice, with Tagoma, a character who wasn't explained to get Zenkais and yet this rapid abuse and healing that only HE took made both him and Frieza billions of times stronger. I don't know what universe of people accept this as great training, but some training with Champa & Vados would have made a lot more sense or some training in a black hole or something crazy like that.
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Re: Did anyone else found the ToP Android 17 forced and unappealing?

Post by Green_Goblin » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:29 am

I also found their writing element of having his energy barrier as "the strongest, no matter how strong his rival his" very lame.

Sure, Dr. Gero programmed him to have this ability, but the multiply rate of this barrier is not millions of times over Android 17's sheer power, it shouldn't even be 10,000 times stronger than what he is in any given moment. If that was the case then he was protected from Cell, and would simply use his barrier for as long as possible to live Cell trying to absrob him for nothing till he's worn out for Androids 16 and 18 to jump in and kill him for good with help from Piccolo, Tien and 17 himself who'd take advantage Cell is now fighting worn-out and made him room to prepare his offensive and join his peers in the Anti-Cell coalition.

Also, didn't liked his pounching brawl with Jiren, that guy is WAAAAAAAAAAYYY over Android 17's maximum, and all he had to do instead of checking how strong the fabric of Android 17's shirt is, was to simply give him a punch with 2% of his true might and take him out for good.

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Re: Did anyone else found the ToP Android 17 forced and unappealing?

Post by Zamasu55 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:48 pm

Agreed. :thumbup:

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Re: Did anyone else found the ToP Android 17 forced and unappealing?

Post by SSJgogeto » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:51 pm

Forced? Yes.

Unnapealing? Nope.

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Re: Did anyone else found the ToP Android 17 forced and unappealing?

Post by Nickolaidas » Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:29 pm

See? This. This is the bullshit I'm talking about.

We've been spoon-fed for countless episodes to consider Super as the Goku/Vegeta show that everytime another character does something, it feels un-natural and forced. Roshi being a badass? Un-natural and forced. #17 becoming the MVP of the ToP? Un-natural and forced. Gohan becoming a fully-functional member of the team in one day? Un-natural and forced.

Vegeta beating up a God of Destruction who thrashed Golden Frieza as if it was nothing? Completely natural and not forced at all.


And I blame the show makers for the fan reactions. They brought it upon themselves for making everyone else pathetically weak and obscure, making us feel weird whenever a character who isn't named Goku or Vegeta gets thrown a bone.

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Re: Did anyone else found the ToP Android 17 forced and unappealing?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:45 pm

Not as much as Future Trunks but still, yes he was forced.

The worst thing is that his power-up doesn't make any sense and lacks any explanation and yet no one really seem surprised at that.
When Hell Fighter 17 was fighting on par with base Vegeta it was enough for him to say that #17 "powered up beyond belief". It was at least explained with some bs that original #17 was meant to be much stronger than Cell. Also, HF17 was machine-mutant so his power was obviously greater.

But here? Regular weak #17 appears after 10 years and fights on par with Goku in his strongest form with no explanation.
If his power was more close to #18's then everything would make more sense and wouldn't seem as forced as it does now. He basically stole entire arc like Trunks when he completely outshined Vegito and made people remember this episode as "Trunks beats Zamasu" rather than "Vegito Blue is born".
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