Did anyone else found the ToP Android 17 forced and unappealing?

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SSJgogeto
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Re: Did anyone else found the ToP Android 17 forced and unappealing?

Post by SSJgogeto » Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:53 pm

I don't think GT is better than Super in this point.

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Re: Did anyone else found the ToP Android 17 forced and unappealing?

Post by Green_Goblin » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:50 pm

Nickolaidas wrote:See? This. This is the bullshit I'm talking about.

We've been spoon-fed for countless episodes to consider Super as the Goku/Vegeta show that everytime another character does something, it feels un-natural and forced. Roshi being a badass? Un-natural and forced. #17 becoming the MVP of the ToP? Un-natural and forced. Gohan becoming a fully-functional member of the team in one day? Un-natural and forced.

Vegeta beating up a God of Destruction who thrashed Golden Frieza as if it was nothing? Completely natural and not forced at all.


And I blame the show makers for the fan reactions. They brought it upon themselves for making everyone else pathetically weak and obscure, making us feel weird whenever a character who isn't named Goku or Vegeta gets thrown a bone.
Gohan's getting back into shape and going further was shown and wasn't just layed on us. Never liked this whole "Goku and Vegeta show" which only takes them higher with the rest sitting in place and staying the dust, but we got to admit that Roshi's comeback to action was also forced yet less than 17 who got the massive "Toriyama handjob".

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Re: Did anyone else found the ToP Android 17 forced and unappealing?

Post by Kokonoe » Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:58 pm

Absolutely agree and I feel like Android 17 is one of the major flaws of Tournament of Power. You have a character that has reached a strength comparable and honestly higher than Super Saiyan Blue Goku, but where was he when Beerus was attacking the earth? With this level of strength of he would've been able to fight with Beerus better than Goku did at least and it's not like he wouldn't have noticed due to the extent of that battle.

Then it's like he got a power up from fighting poachers who are absolutely weak. So let's say Cell saga, he could've just...trained for like a day then would've been stronger than anyone including Perfect Cell? Ridiculous.

There's also the part where he "self-destructs" but he doesn't actually die which doesn't even make sense. The manga of Super explains this a lot better but still when it comes to the anime it's done so forced to get a cheap reaction out of the audience.

And most of all he just seemed too "perfect", he had the perfect tactics for nearly every scene, he always made some form of a comeback. He's the first person to actually hurt Jiren...the list goes on. I truly despise this character in Super and much preferred how he was written in the original series.

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Re: Did anyone else found the ToP Android 17 forced and unappealing?

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:09 am

CJStriker_CBR wrote:

What does it mean to have a character, espically a pasted established character returning back, seem forced onto an audience?!
I don't think it matters whether they're established or not, as constantly shoving in one character to make the story flow a certain way doesn't make for a well-written story.
Especially since an audience can never seem to agree with each other on many matters, personal tastes being one of them?
True, taste is subjective; however, if a particular scene or character is written well enough, a consensus can be made. Overall, it's all about how things are handled.
What is it that the writing does wrong to do this and what does writing have to do to avoid this problem when bring back other characters?
Well, in terms of how DBS handles power, it does numerous things wrongs like characters leapfrogging from one power tier to the next with no effort, constant desire for escalation and linear power scaling. Although there is nothing inherently wrong with this since almost all stories have it in some form, though DBS does it terribly and to be honest nearly no part of the series does it particularly well. Lastly, forsaking consistency for coolness. Naturally, to fix these problems, the best thing would be to hire better writers and for those writers to take advantage of the new lore and make new possibilities. Also, I'm not an expert on any of this stuff, all I do is compare and contrast what I watch or read and notice what could have been done better.
How do you determine, while I have my own ideas, of how a character in DB should have a power-up, how should writers go about it?
Hard to say and I honestly don't know, if we're talking about every character that has appeared or will appear in DB. Although I will say fix the awful power creep, of course, hire better writers and think of a more intricate power system.

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Re: Did anyone else found the ToP Android 17 forced and unappealing?

Post by Nickolaidas » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:41 pm

Green_Goblin wrote:Gohan's getting back into shape and going further was shown and wasn't just layed on us.
So what? It's still lame. Gohan got his mojo back so fast one can't help but wonder how he lost it in the first place. Makes this whole Roshi berating Gohan for slacking off that much stupider since all that Gohan had to do was train with Piccolo for one day to regain his power as well as reach SSB tier.


I don't see how #17 training in the woods makes for worse storytelling. Both are equally laughable and make Frieza's four month beating-the-living-snot-out-of-Tagoma training sessions look like a legitimate explanation for his PL boost in comparison.

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Re: Did anyone else found the ToP Android 17 forced and unappealing?

Post by Green_Goblin » Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:58 am

Nickolaidas wrote:
Green_Goblin wrote:Gohan's getting back into shape and going further was shown and wasn't just layed on us.
So what? It's still lame. Gohan got his mojo back so fast one can't help but wonder how he lost it in the first place. Makes this whole Roshi berating Gohan for slacking off that much stupider since all that Gohan had to do was train with Piccolo for one day to regain his power as well as reach SSB tier.


I don't see how #17 training in the woods makes for worse storytelling. Both are equally laughable and make Frieza's four month beating-the-living-snot-out-of-Tagoma training sessions look like a legitimate explanation for his PL boost in comparison.
Let's make this power scaling issue a quick one: Gohan's SSJ in Resurrection 'F' is nowhere near his Mystic/Ultimate prime from when he fought Super Buu, as Piccolo referred to that level as something so powerful even AFTER Gohan had fought (and technically won) against Basil, making his RoF base less than 2% of his Mystic power (50 times that will be a 100%).

Gohan's path back to power began in episode 30, we are shown he was training again, NOT as powerful as he was back in his prime, but sure is much stronger than what he was against Frieza. Then he skips the Tournament of Destroyers and his power never to be scaled until Future Trunks shares a day with him and notes that his base is currently weaker than his SSJ 2 power back as a kid against Cell. Once Gohan is updated of Goku Black and Zamasu he goes to train with Piccolo in the Room of Spirit and Time ASAP and goes back to his Mystic prime (look at him when he bid Future Trunks and Future Mai farewell).

Then it's 3 months of peace and despite the fact he was indeed much weaker than his Mystic prime, he wasn't as weak and rusty as in RoF, that's shown with the Watagash/Barry Kahn conflict, and the baseball episode (70) where Champa compliments him despite his fragile figure ("You're pretty strong, eh?") after he survived Goku's pitch. This situation of Gohan maintaining some degree of his true/best game power is shown when he spars with Goku in their family field at the beginning of episode 75, making his old man proud.

So basically he rose back to a nice piece of his power when he fought Basil, a character who's at Majin Vegeta's tier, and all he was left to do is to be fully drawn out by Piccolo motivating and fixing his mindset, after he became Mystic/Ultimate Gohan again, all he had to do is to sharpen his power features for a day and managed to become almost at SSB Kaioken tier.

BETTER WRITTEN THAN EITHER/BOTH Frieza and Android 17's power boosts OUT OF NOWHERE.

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Re: Did anyone else found the ToP Android 17 forced and unappealing?

Post by SsjCookie » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:08 am

Nickolaidas wrote:
Green_Goblin wrote:Gohan's getting back into shape and going further was shown and wasn't just layed on us.
So what? It's still lame. Gohan got his mojo back so fast one can't help but wonder how he lost it in the first place. Makes this whole Roshi berating Gohan for slacking off that much stupider since all that Gohan had to do was train with Piccolo for one day to regain his power as well as reach SSB tier.


I don't see how #17 training in the woods makes for worse storytelling. Both are equally laughable and make Frieza's four month beating-the-living-snot-out-of-Tagoma training sessions look like a legitimate explanation for his PL boost in comparison.

The problem Super has as a show is it's pacing.
There's no build up whatsoever surrounding the important side characters.
There has to be instant satisfaction instead.
We understand why both Goku and vegeta are so strong because we constantly see them training and fighting in the show, and thus see them EARNING their power.
Other characters like Gohan, 17, Future Trunks etc, train and fight mostly off screen.
And in this lies the mayor problem.

We are not involved in their journey to how they reached their strength in the first place, so we are bound to question their progress.
Even though I kinda understand how Future Trunks got so strong (by living in a dystopian world being the only warrior)
The rest of the cast isn't excused.
Roshi?.....yeah right.
Gohan?.... lets just lay it on his so called hidden half Saiyan potential.
17,...lets just say he's a special case.

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Re: Did anyone else found the ToP Android 17 forced and unappealing?

Post by TobyS » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:59 am

I actually think the manga handles 17 better, he forces Goku up into ss3 but they don't fight at that level.

Then in the tournament he fights weaker people and hides from Jiren. That's it. Much more plausible.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: Did anyone else found the ToP Android 17 forced and unappealing?

Post by ssj3kakarot » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:14 pm

I greatly disliked how how they made 17 appear in the ToP. But I shouldn't be surprised with how Super handled random BS power ups. But something about 17 really is just terrible.

For one, how in hell does he improve so drastically? Ohh, by taming Cell juniors, and protecting an island from a bunch of weaklings trying to kidnap animals? He was designed to be part of Cell, that was where he would become uber strong. Otherwise, Cell is kind of a joke if 17 could have just trained and surpassed Cell by several magnitudes easily.

Also, why isn't 18 super duper strong? She trains, as is shown, but how come she doesn't get the hax-powerz.

Why didn't 17 come help out when Buu showed up? What about when Beerus showed up?

I've said this many times, I am all for people being relative and able to still thrown down with the big boys, but at least make it a pill that everyone can swallow. Training by yourself with cell juniors and the random poacher is just bad writing.

Making Frieza relevant by training has precedence because he never had trained in his life and had a P.L. of 150 million. It makes sense that if he trains, he will yield a tremendous increase. Basically, I dont think 17 should have been as powerful as he was based off what we know.
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Re: Did anyone else found the ToP Android 17 forced and unappealing?

Post by Green_Goblin » Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:12 pm

ssj3kakarot wrote:I greatly disliked how how they made 17 appear in the ToP. But I shouldn't be surprised with how Super handled random BS power ups. But something about 17 really is just terrible.

For one, how in hell does he improve so drastically? Ohh, by taming Cell juniors, and protecting an island from a bunch of weaklings trying to kidnap animals? He was designed to be part of Cell, that was where he would become uber strong. Otherwise, Cell is kind of a joke if 17 could have just trained and surpassed Cell by several magnitudes easily.

Also, why isn't 18 super duper strong? She trains, as is shown, but how come she doesn't get the hax-powerz.

Why didn't 17 come help out when Buu showed up? What about when Beerus showed up?

I've said this many times, I am all for people being relative and able to still thrown down with the big boys, but at least make it a pill that everyone can swallow. Training by yourself with cell juniors and the random poacher is just bad writing.

Making Frieza relevant by training has precedence because he never had trained in his life and had a P.L. of 120 million. It makes sense that if he trains, he will yield a tremendous increase. Basically, I dont think 17 should have been as powerful as he was based off what we know.
Basically he stated that he can't sense ki during the manga ToP, so his exclusion of previous dire conflicts is allegedly because he couldn't sense what was going on, despite the fact that in Z he had a built-in eye power meter, as shown when he scanned Android 16 upon activating him.

Totally agree Android 17 should be in the same power level tier as Android 18, he has no real excuse to be so freaking powerful. Besides bad and cheesy writing opting on merchandise. If I were to write this arc then the power ranks of Team Universe 7 would be: Goku, Vegeta, Frieza, Gohan, Piccolo (!), Android 17, Android 18, Krillin, Tien, Roshi.

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