Toei's Anime Forms

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Lord Frieza
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Toei's Anime Forms

Post by Lord Frieza » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:50 pm

Edited to get the point of the thread across more clearly, this is not about MERCH

Ok so on another thread I did a member called RandomGuy96 pointed out that Toei likely used any opportunity to add transformations for merchandising. I don't disagree with this idea. But what I want to talk about is when this was done well and when it wasn't. I feel that sometimes Toei's additions were a good thing and sometimes pointless.

This is all pretty much opinion based and I'm interested to see what people think. I'm also going to talk about some of the more prominent ones as I currently don't have time to go through the lot.

Half-Corrupted and Infinite Zamasu
Image
Image

Of all the form likely to come from Toei I feel Zamasu got the best. His corrupted forms play into the instability of both his mind and body as well as allowing him to fight Vegito on a more even footing against a Goku/Vegeta fusions than anyone befor and even after. The forms have a thematic and practical purpouse in the story. Wither or not Toei ever ment it that way, who knows. The Anime's take on Infinite Zamasu is also superior I fell. While both the anime and manga versions feel like totally broken foes, the anime one is unlikely anything else in Dragon Ball, bordering on cosmic horror. It feels very unique in the kind of threat it represents.

SSBKK
Image

While it's likely based on DBZ filler, this was probably the closest to pure genius Toei's ever got. Rather then just come up with a new power up or transformations, we see a combination of one of Goku's oldest with his newest. This power up also helps make the final battle of the Champa Arc feel a lot more intense then manga's (I'm sorry, this isn't ment to be a manga bashing thread). I also like that they went with the idea that using the form could be dangerous and have consequences for Goku. the only real flaw this had was that Toei seemed to forget that little limitation almost as soon as they said it.


God of Destruction Toppo, Super Maximum Light Speed Mode Dyspo and Burning Ultimate Warrior Jiren.
Image
Image
Image

I lump these three togther for the same reason. These forms don't actually need to exist... but they aren't exactly hurting by being their ether. I think of these as the middle of the road when it comes to Toei's original forms. They don't need to be there and only add some cheap transformation drama but on the same score they don't hurt the series by existing.They look cool and they do cool stuff, no harm no foul.

Hopfully this it proof that I'm trying be be unbiased here, since all three of these guys are in my most faviorts list.

Super Saiyan Rage
Image

I don't think many are going to disagree with me when I say this form pretty much exemplafies the bad side of Toei original forms. They were already pushing it by forcing Trunks to be as active in combat in the story as he was, but this form was pretty much the tipping point, well this and a certain sword. It doesn't need to exist, it's given no real reason to exist and could have been anything else (SS3 comes to mind) and almost as soon as it's introduced it's made redundant. Hand down the manga was better on this front.

Thats all I've got time for discussing on my end.
Last edited by Lord Frieza on Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Toei's Anime Forms

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:04 pm

Those two forms of Zamasu are legit two of the scariest/most disgusting forms that a Dragon Ball villain ever had. Sure people like Imperfect Cell are sick freaks, but can you compare them to a literal cosmic horror? Ha, I don't think so.
"You give corruption far too much credit, evil does not inform good. It sullies it, like the Babari sullied their world with violence, and that arrogant Goku sullied this sacred ground by swinging his fists at a God. Mortals receive the divine gift of intellect, the potential for wisdom, but they misuse it to destroy the beauty of creation. Mortals do not succumb to evil, they are the evil. They create it, and spread it with minds they shouldn't possess. How can we call ourselves gods if we watch this plight and do nothing to stop it?"

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Re: Toei's Anime Forms

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:27 pm

Ffs can we please stop this nonsense about Toei made forms for merchandising. I am absolutely sick of this damn misconception already. Surprise surprise it's always people that never have been on the merch thread.


Barely anything of DBS has been marketing let alone these forms. Toppo is yet to be merched let alone his GoD form. It took them 1.5yrs to give us a blue shirt Omen figure, it took them an entire year to do something with Evolution Vegeta. There was barely anything and still for Kale. The list in endless.

The only thing Toei have done for marketing is the over use of SSGSS because it is the most popular form and underuse SS3 cuz it's one of the least popular forms. Everything else Toei have done for themselves. Hell take Broly's green form came about purely because of Shintani and not pressures from Bandai.

So can we please stop spreading this nonsense. Please.

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Re: Toei's Anime Forms

Post by Lord Frieza » Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:42 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:Ffs can we please stop this nonsense about Toei made forms for merchandising. I am absolutely sick of this damn misconception already. Surprise surprise it's always people that never have been on the merch thread.


Barely anything of DBS has been marketing let alone these forms. Toppo is yet to be merched let alone his GoD form. It took them 1.5yrs to give us a blue shirt Omen figure, it took them an entire year to do something with Evolution Vegeta. There was barely anything and still for Kale. The list in endless.

The only thing Toei have done for marketing is the over use of SSGSS because it is the most popular form and underuse SS3 cuz it's one of the least popular forms. Everything else Toei have done for themselves. Hell take Broly's green form came about purely because of Shintani and not pressures from Bandai.

So can we please stop spreading this nonsense. Please.
Not what the threads about. it's about what toei added and if it actually good or not. Why they added it has little bearing on the subject. Thanks for the insight anyway, despite how accusatory it was spoken.
Last edited by Lord Frieza on Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Toei's Anime Forms

Post by GodVegetto91 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:45 pm

Lord Frieza wrote:Ok so on another thread I did a member called RandomGuy96 pointed out that Toei likely used any opportunity to add transformations for merchandising. I don't disagree with this idea. But what I want to talk about is when this was done well and when it wasn't. I feel that sometimes Toei's additions were a good thing and sometimes pointless.

This is all pretty much opinion based and I'm interested to see what people think. I'm also going to talk about some of the more prominent ones as I currently don't have time to go through the lot.

Half-Corrupted and Infinite Zamasu
Image
Image

Of all the form likely to come from Toei I feel Zamasu got the best. His corrupted forms play into the instability of both his mind and body as well as allowing him to fight Vegito on a more even footing against a Goku/Vegeta fusions than anyone befor and even after. The forms have a thematic and practical purpouse in the story. Wither or not Toei ever ment it that way, who knows. The Anime's take on Infinite Zamasu is also superior I fell. While both the anime and manga versions feel like totally broken foes, the anime one is unlikely anything else in Dragon Ball, bordering on cosmic horror. It feels very unique in the kind of threat it represents.

SSBKK
Image

While it's likely based on DBZ filler, this was probably the closest to pure genius Toei's ever got. Rather then just come up with a new power up or transformations, we see a combination of one of Goku's oldest with his newest. This power up also helps make the final battle of the Champa Arc feel a lot more intense then manga's (I'm sorry, this isn't ment to be a manga bashing thread). I also like that they went with the idea that using the form could be dangerous and have consequences for Goku. the only real flaw this had was that Toei seemed to forget that little limitation almost as soon as they said it.


God of Destruction Toppo, Super Maximum Light Speed Mode Dyspo and Burning Ultimate Warrior Jiren.
Image
Image
Image

I lump these three togther for the same reason. These forms don't actually need to exist... but they aren't exactly hurting by being their ether. I think of these as the middle of the road when it comes to Toei's original forms. They don't need to be there and are clearly just added to sell merch and add some cheap transformation drama but on the same score they don't hurt the series by existing.They look cool and they do cool stuff, no harm no foul.

Hopfully this it proof that I'm trying be be unbiased here, since all three of these guys are in my most faviorts list.

Super Saiyan Rage
Image

I don't think many are going to disagree with me when I say this form pretty much exemplafies the bad side of Toei original forms. They were already pushing it by forcing Trunks to be as active in combat in the story as he was, but this form was pretty much the tipping point, well this and a certain sword. It doesn't need to exist, it's given no real reason to exist and could have been anything else (SS3 comes to mind) and almost as soon as it's introduced it's made redundant. Hand down the manga was better on this front.

Thats all I've got time for disccussing on my end.
Why isn’t Super Saiyan Blue Evolution on your list? That’s the first one that should come to anyone’s mind! The biggest and most important one!
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Re: Toei's Anime Forms

Post by Lord Frieza » Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:01 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote: Why isn’t Super Saiyan Blue Evolution on your list? That’s the first one that should come to anyone’s mind! The biggest and most important one!
When I originally posted I didn't have the time,... but since you asked about it

SSB Evolved
Image

I've got very mixed feeling on this one. The main reason this form was added, I feel, was to keep the gap between Goku and Vegeta from getting to big. It's Vegeta's answer to SSBKK. Now on the one hand I'm very open to the idea of Goku and Vegeta not following the same transformation lines while still staying equal. It really help them stand appart and puts Vegeta less in Goku's shadow all the time. It looks ok, it's clearly based on Super Vegeta (ironically the forms copying how SSBKK was made I.e combing an old and new form) the darker hair, pupils and new aura help sperate it from SSBKK and it dose suit Vegeta. The only real problem is that the form feels a little cheap as it isn't given the proper reveal it should. While I can believe that Vegeta has a true emotional connection to Cabba, the show doesn't depict it as so great that it could cause Vegeta to evolve into a stronger state. It would have helped if he had also been shown thinking of his own family.

To sum up I think it's an ok form, but it's reveal just doesn't give it the strong push other new forms tend to get.

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Re: Toei's Anime Forms

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:43 pm

I can't understand how anyone can think the manga handled Future Trunks better.

Yikes. :?

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Re: Toei's Anime Forms

Post by Lord Frieza » Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:06 pm

ZombieVito wrote:I can't understand how anyone can think the manga handled Future Trunks better.

Yikes. :?
Better dose not equal good.

But for a manga flaws, I prefer the anime for the most part, Rage and the genki sword are just pushing to far in my opinion.

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Re: Toei's Anime Forms

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:28 pm

Lord Frieza wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:Ffs can we please stop this nonsense about Toei made forms for merchandising. I am absolutely sick of this damn misconception already. Surprise surprise it's always people that never have been on the merch thread.


Barely anything of DBS has been marketing let alone these forms. Toppo is yet to be merched let alone his GoD form. It took them 1.5yrs to give us a blue shirt Omen figure, it took them an entire year to do something with Evolution Vegeta. There was barely anything and still for Kale. The list in endless.

The only thing Toei have done for marketing is the over use of SSGSS because it is the most popular form and underuse SS3 cuz it's one of the least popular forms. Everything else Toei have done for themselves. Hell take Broly's green form came about purely because of Shintani and not pressures from Bandai.

So can we please stop spreading this nonsense. Please.
Not what the threads about. it's about what toei added and if it actually good or not. Why they added it has little bearing on the subject. Thanks for the insight anyway, despite how accusatory it was spoken.
I do apologise! It is very sensitive area that for me. Aggression is felt moslty towards Bandai and the shoddy way they have gone about marketing (depsite using DBS logo everywhere) and so when people come and say things like x y z is done for marketing, I get even more mad because I want it to be true but it's not and Toei send Bandai info all the time ahead and Bandai don't give a f**k.

Anyway as for the topic:
Evo Vegeta, idea great handled okay.
Ikari Trunks ehh on both.
"Omen" great on both (if it didn't come from Toriyama).
GoD Toppo meh idea handled fairly well.
Kaioken great on both.
Kale's form(s) the best they could have done.
FP Broly good idea, lacking a bit in execution I guess? But in some ways I do like how not much attention was given to the green form.

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Re: Toei's Anime Forms

Post by DHM211 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:00 am

Unpopular opinion but SS Blue Kio-Ken and SS Blue Evolved are two of my least favorite forms and I think they look hideous.

Thank god DBS: Broly ignored that either of them exist :lol: .

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Re: Toei's Anime Forms

Post by TobyS » Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:24 am

I kind of hate all of these.

Why does Zamasu go purple for some reason , if he went gray or brown or black like burned or necrotic flesh it'd make more sense.

Why doesn't the time ring break or fall off his finger.

Kaioken blue was dumb as hell, blue was already op as fuck so soon after underused god. There's no reason u6 had to be on that level in the first place except for pointless shonen escalation. Supposedly had a drawback but is then spammed without consequence, which was sad cuz the episode where he's weakened with Piccolo was good.

Dypso, he's already new so why does he need a transformation , just write him as that fast in the first place. We don't know him and aren't emotionally invested in him so we don't give a fuck when he ascends to a new level of power. It wasn't built up like the first ss even ui had a chapter or two of build up.

Toppo was one of the worst. Take a slightly unique design like a chubby skipping leg day walrus guy and give him a generic video game dark aura and generically buff physique. And why? Beerus and Champa aren't ripped, nothing shows you change when you take the job on. And whats with the douchey tribal tats. Hard fucking pass. It also achieved nothing. Just served to wank Vegeta more. Lame AF.

Jiren in the anime's defense I don't remember this being a real transformation. He just went full power, tapped into latent reserves and got a bit buffer.

Trunks was terrible. They established him as being SS3 tier in ss2 but a jump to god without training or a ritual? Dumb. The manga gave him something valid to do without wanking him.

Vegetas was dumb af. Vegeta doesn't deserve to be artificially forced to be kept on the same level despite Goku always being a chunk ahead in the past and Vegeta admitting he's the better fighter at end of Z.

Why does vegeta deserve to arbitrarily stay 2nd best, Piccolo Ten, Buu all those guys slipped down and never got to come back up why the special treatment.

It was only made to solve the problem they created with kaioblue. It was introduced right at the end of the series and only countered toppos transformation, why not just have neither transform it could be the same difference.... Also it still doesn't really make sense that Goku couldn't do it too and maybe stack kaioken on too of that one.

They do feel like an attempt to make merch, hold idiot children's attention with shallow novelty and add shit to the video games.
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Re: Toei's Anime Forms

Post by LimitbreakerKrillin » Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:17 am

Not a particular fan of the Toei forms. SSBKK when it debut in U6 arc it was pretty hyped, but in the Universe survial saga it was pretty much just "meh" every time it appeared.
SSBE is really just there for Vegeta to catch up to Goku as everyone said, and it should really have its first appearence in his rematch with Goku Black after he trained in Hyperbolic time chamber, having it appear near the end of ToP and with no real buildup was a big mistake on Toei's part.

Rage Trunks is a big fat NO, if you want him to fight SSR Goku Black and not get trashed easily then give him SSG, theres is enough pure hearted saiyans in the present timeline to do ritual on Trunks. Otherwise I wouldnt even bother to give him any new transformation.

Toppo' and Dyspo's forms are fine I supposed. I dont know why they chose purple for Toppo though, I guess because the only known GoD that is seen with an aura is Beerus so they just applied that to Toppo and darkened his skin.

Full Power Jiren is probably the only Toei transformation i genuine like.

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Re: Toei's Anime Forms

Post by emperior » Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:21 am

Blue Kaioken:
I must admit that I found this form incredibly cool when it was first introduced, but at the time I was craving for some fanservice because of how hyped I was from Dragon Ball’s return.
Don’t get me wrong: I still like the form, but it has been spammed way too much to the point that by the Tournament of Power its drawbacks have disappeared with no explanation as of why, though it’s implied that it’s because Goku got stronger.
I just wished Goku would have used the Kaioken more as an attack than some sort of transformation he always has on.
And I don’t understand why Toriyama isn’t including it in his outlines, which is why it would probably have been better to never have it, because Goku spamming it created Super Saiyan Evolution which is the most garbage out of the Toei forms.
But then, it’s also on Toriyama for seemingly writing how Goku had to be 10 times stronger than Vegeta during the U6 tournament. Which makes no sense and should have never been written that vague.
Toyotaro probably handled the whole thing better.

Super Saiyan Rage:
The form has no explanation as to why it existed, except because it was cool.
Still, I can’t fault Toei too much for creating this form as it at least served the purpose of making Future Trunks actually useful in his own arc. I just wished they could have handled this better and with some sort of build up, even though I would have personally preferred for Trunks to achieve it by training with Vegeta and explaining that it’s some hybrid Super Saiyan Blue form with a rougher usage of Ki but equally strong. Or just give him Super Saiyan God if Blue would look redundant on someone who already has blue hair to begin with.
Basically I like this but I dislike how they couldn’t bother trying to give it an explanation as to why existed, beyond the fact that Trunks was very mad.

Corrupted Zamasu:
I wouldn’t call this a transformation. It didn’t make Zamasu stronger, and it showed his corrupted side due to Black not being immortal. I actually like this because of the visual narrative it serves.

Super Saiyan Evolution:
Alright, this form looks absolutely terrible with the bright aura which makes it impossible to see Vegeta, and the bulkier body makes no sense considering this is a godly form.
I much prefer Toyotaro’s take over Vegeta improving Blue but looking virtually the same. If I had to design the form, I would make it look the same to Super Saiyan Blue but with a more intense aura and pupils. And if I had to change the body, I would actually make it skinnier like SSG instead of having Vegeta getting bulkier.
Still, this wasn’t needed, but they wanted Vegeta to be on par with Goku who was spamming Kaioken left and right.
And I also hate how this form was achieved in the anime. Vegeta thinking about his promise to Cabba and suddenly getting around 10 to 20 times stronger? What the fuck does that mean? Couldn’t they come up with a better reason as to why Vegeta suddenly improved? I would have liked it if he unlocked the form by fighting side to side with Goku’s Blue Kaioken and adapting to it, for example.

God of Destruction Toppo:
This is just stupid. It made no sense for Toppo to suddenly get huge and gain some tribal tattoos. Again, the bulky phisique goes against how the Gods of Destruction have been depicted so far. A purple aura would have been enough as a visual clue to Toppo’s new power, and I don’t mind his eyes going red.

Shirtless Jiren:
I don’t consider this a transformation, but more of a visual clue that Jiren was using his full power. And it made sense for him to be battle damaged at the end.
The reason why it may have looked bad was because of the horrible aura Toei gave him, as well as the terrible design by Yamamuro, which is also why Evolution Vegeta looked so bad.

I just wished that Toei got rid of new transformations entirely to go back to martial arts and technique focused fights like Dragon Ball had before Freeza. Back then we didn’t need a visual clue to know that 22nd Budokai Tenkaichi Goku was stronger than he was 3 years before, or that he was stronger than in the 21st Budokai.
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Re: Toei's Anime Forms

Post by sunsetshimmer » Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:51 am

Corrupted Zamasu
Garbage, but at least Zamasu didn't look as lame as before

Infinite Zamasu
Ok concept but manga did it better than just Zamasu becoming a lazy drawn wallpaper on sky

SSB Kaioken
I prefer mastered SSJB from manga, but kaioken is fine and has nice aura

Toppo
Completely unnecesary and ruined his character since he stopped caring about justice

Dyspo
I don't even remember him having any form or mode lol

Jiren
Just full power with visual changes

SSJ Rage
Garbage

SSB Evolution
Garbage X100
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Re: Toei's Anime Forms

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:52 am

It could be my anime bias, but I'm generally fine with all of these. I felt like each of them accomplished their main purpose pretty well, and I think they all look decent to pretty damn good.

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Re: Toei's Anime Forms

Post by MKCSTEALTH » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:18 pm

Only form that really bothered me was Super Saiyan Rage. It literally comes out of nowhere with zero explanation of what exactly even happens and puts Trunks suddenly on par with Goku Black Rose. He should have trained in the Room of Spirit and Time with Vegeta, Goku, and Whis and gained some very beginning understanding of God Ki (or imply his training with the Supreme Kai unlocked some sort of divine energy) and that become the basis for his new form: an incomplete god form that is fueled through his anger over his calmness of mind like SSB

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Re: Toei's Anime Forms

Post by Dragon Wukong » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:41 pm

One reason why I prefer the manga is I honestly think it's better off without these Toei form additions. I actually really dislike Half-Corrupted Zamasu in terms of design, when I thought the fusion was perfect beforehand. The purple goop does not sit well with me and brings back Bio-Broly flashbacks. Ew. Toppo's God of Destruction form is satisfying to watch beat-down Frieza, but doesn't make any real sense in terms of lore with the Gods of Destruction. As you said, Super Saiyan Rage could've been literally anything else (like gee, a form that doesn't do much anymore. Like Super Saiyan 3) and it would've made more sense.

SSBKK is good in concept genuinely, but went into sorta bull territory when Goku IMMEDIATELY yelled "TIMES TEEEEN". Effectively forced everyone else to be weaker than Goku by default and pushed everyone stronger into somewhat ridiculous territories given how strong we know Super Saiyan Blue to be.

Light speed mode Dyspo and Burning Warrior Jiren are harmless though. One is a technique and the other is just a change in aura while powering up somewhat generically. Neither really changes the design of the character in a way I'd deem unnecessary, and I like that. I wish they would've gone that route with Vegeta's power-up in the ToP, as I really don't like the design of Super Saiyan Blue Evolution. Like you said, the reason the form existed in the first place was to keep the gap between Vegeta and Goku from being ridiculous thanks to SSBKK (the issue in which I describe above.) But honestly, if they didn't give it the weird darker blue hair and UI-like irises, and generally have it feel more like a mastery of SSB rather than a new transformation, I'd probably find it ok. Not to mention the motive behind it is a little absurd.

Though at this point, we're forgetting about the newest Toei addition. SSFP Broly was revealed in an interview to be a Shintani original. Considering how iconic the form is for Broly though, it's probably the one instance I can truly forgive, as it wouldn't feel like Broly if he didn't go big and green.

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Re: Toei's Anime Forms

Post by PFM18 » Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:21 am

DHM211 wrote:Unpopular opinion but SS Blue Kio-Ken and SS Blue Evolved are two of my least favorite forms and I think they look hideous.

Thank god DBS: Broly ignored that either of them exist :lol: .
That's not unpopular at all. I have an unpopular opinion in that I think SSBE is damn gorgeous.

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Re: Toei's Anime Forms

Post by Hulk10 » Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:33 am

Half Corrupted Zamasu is indeed disgusting.
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Re: Toei's Anime Forms

Post by DHM211 » Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:49 am

PFM18 wrote:
DHM211 wrote:Unpopular opinion but SS Blue Kio-Ken and SS Blue Evolved are two of my least favorite forms and I think they look hideous.

Thank god DBS: Broly ignored that either of them exist :lol: .
That's not unpopular at all. I have an unpopular opinion in that I think SSBE is damn gorgeous.
I was mostly referring to SS Blue Kio-Ken. Most people lost their shit when episode 39 came out. I hated it then, and still hate it now.

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