Characters who were wasted in the TOP (potential wise)

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BWri
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Re: Characters who were wasted in the TOP (potential wise)

Post by BWri » Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:54 am

Lord Beerus wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:07 pm
Paragus made it quite clear he held an antagonistic attitude towards Vegeta, so why should Vegeta give a shit about him? I mean, Paragus made Broly into fighting machine for the purpose of killing Vegeta over a grudge that based on what Vegeta's dad did, and not Vegeta himself. So I think Vegeta has every right to be unsympathetic towards Paragus
That's fair. I still think it odd he had no investment. Like he didn't care either way. He didn't try to convince him to let go of his grudge. He didn't try to explain things, or let him know the history of how Frieza killed the Saiyans. That's what I mean. Like if he tried something, I would have the sense that Vegeta cares about Saiyans. But he treated Broly and Paragus like two random guys.
The jury is still out on Broly as he lived by the end of his Super movie. So he could become a close ally of the main cast like Beerus and Whis did over the years. So Vegeta's general ambivalence towards Broly at this current stage is justifiable.
I don't think Vegeta's ambivalence makes much sense. Especially when caring about Saiyans is supposedly a huge part of his development in the previous arc. It doesn't add up.

And they were willing to kill him at the end of the day. I know he was out of control, but only Goku showed any ounce of mercy, but even then it only seemed like it was because Broly was a strong guy.
I mean, Vegeta does have two half breed children, and in one case, he killed himself just to protect Trunks and Bulma, and in another, nearly killed himself to greatly aid in saving his universe and have the hope for saving another race.
I think it's safe to separate Vegeta's love of his family from his desire to protect the Saiyans of Universe 6. The show does it, and it makes sense that he'd have stronger feelings for his family. Even if his children weren't Saiyans, he would likely still love them as strongly.
Vegeta's willingness to put his life on line for any Saiyan he's acquainted with ultimately stems from how much of an personal interest he develops for them.
This is ultimately the reasoning, but to me, it doesn't really fit. He is proud of Saiyans and Saiyan potential, yet he's completely shafted U7 Saiyans (true blooded). He doesn't seem interested at all. I just don't see how one meeting with Cabba and the trading of a few words about an alternate universe of Saiyans can make Vegeta so emotionally invested in U6, while being so ambivalent about the Saiyans of U7 who have this huge connection with his own homeworld, his own history, hell, even his own father. He has expressed that he doesn't want to wish the Saiyans of U7 back. Understandable, seeing as how they are ruthless, but if he can change then wouldn't he think he could he could lead them to change as well? I get it though, its a lot of work, but the ambivalence to Broly and Paragus is just too much. I can't connect these two different Vegeta's.
In the Majin Boo arc, he lays his life on the line because of paternal instinct and empathy towards others (he knocks out both Goten and Trunks before blowing himself up so they don't get caught in the crossfire). Fast forward to Super, and his empathy towards others has evolved to the point where just the intrigue of discovering new Saiyans beyond his universe is a concept that has too much personal value to let it die so needlessly and is willing to go the extra mile to protect it.
This is fine, but there's no build. As you say, a personal connection is needed. He had a few moments with Cabba one time before, and now he's the U6 protector??? And he simultaneously shows no desire to preserve or protect any Saiyans in U7 outside of his family. I can't resolve that. And mind, Cabba is the only Saiyan from U6 he connected to. He had no moments with Kale of Caulifla, no personal connection and he only heard of the King of Sadala from hearsay.

At the end of the day, he's willing to use the Super DB's to wish the Saiyans of U6 back, essentially people he doesn't know, cuz really you don't know someone after one or two meetings, while the Saiyans he grew up with need to stay dead because he can't be bothered to help reform them. It's weak whichever way you break it down.
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Re: Characters who were wasted in the TOP (potential wise)

Post by BWri » Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:25 am

ruler9871 wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:45 pm
BWri wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:10 pm
Lord Beerus wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:31 am
Also, considering all though in Vegeta's inner circle of family or allies consist of the remaining Saiyan's in his universe, and it's made demonstrably clear on several occasions he gives a shit about them, I think it's safe to say that he does care about the Saiyans (who are left) in the his universe.
Except Broly. Paragus either for that matter. He responded to them with a collective "meh". His interest in Broly was just as another strong guy. To me that exemplifies Vegeta's attitude to universe 7 Saiyans in general aside from his family and Goku's family by extension. For a ruler who has all this pride in his people, he oddly has no desire to preserve or restore them, but he does have this interest for universe 6. IDK, it just doesn't fit for me.
Vegeta attitude towards the U6 Saiyans is the result of his character development after the Cell Games. There's nothing contradictory about it. We can also see it in how differently he treats Future Trunks in Super compare to Z.
My problem is he feels too strongly for alternate universe Saiyans, one of which he met once before the tournament, the others he's never met, and others he's only heard stories about. He doesn't show this same care to the Saiyans of his own universe. No interest in keeping Broly or Paragus alive, no interest in reviving and reforming his own people with the Super DBs. No interest in stopping the fight with Broly and explaining that Frieza killed their people. It just doesn't add up for me. Seems like two different Vegetas. The Saiyan savior and the "I only care about my family of half-Saiyans" Vegetas.
ruler9871 wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:42 pm

1. People can change their values and resolve overtime, which is exactly what Vegeta did since the Buu saga. So to claim its "out of character" for Vegeta to be motivated by these things is pure bullshit and disregards character development.
I think it is out of character and not because people can't change, but because Vegeta isn't being consistent.
The series since the Buu saga has made it clear that Vegeta puts a much higher value for his family than Goku, enough to make it a resolve for him (along with his Pride). And "rage boost" aren't honestly any different from "nakama power", since they're both resolve/emotion based power ups. So Dragonball from day one isn't really any thematically different from most other Shonen, many fans are just in denial.
Rage boost are not the same as Nakama power. Rage boosts are rage boosts. Many things can trigger them, but its never been a power up gained from the desire to protect a friend. Protecting friends goes into it somewhat, but its usually motivated by fury & vengeance and many times happens after said friend is dead whereas Nakama boosts usually happen to protect said friend from death. That's a huuuuuuuge difference. Enough to take the story in a totally different direction.
2. The "Vegeta doesn't care about the U7 Saiyans" nonsense has been debunked several times. If its true then how the hell do you explain this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vfu1o61p1mQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aovcg4CgaBI
This actually helps my point. This is what I think of when I think of Vegeta's intense reverence to his race, but U6 isn't exactly his race. They don't share his history and biologically they are different. But with this modern era Vegeta, his own race is dead and he has shown that he doesn't want to revive them. He'd shown he doesn't care much about Paragus and Broly who have a connection with his father and history. He didn't even try to stop the fight with them or explain that Frieza killed their people. He ultimately decided to kill Broly while fused even though he greatly overpowered him. Luckily a non-Saiyan had enough sympathy for Broly to save his life otherwise Broly, a surviving Saiyan, would be dead. Where was the Saiyan savior here? Where was the mercy he showed Universe 6?

*edit: When I say U6 isn't his race, I just mean his connection to U7 Saiyans should be much higher. I think it makes sense that he'd have a connection to Saiyans of any ilk, but it doesn't add up to me that he doesn't treat Saiyans like Broly with this same soft-heartedness considering they are literally more connected through biology, history, tragedy, and culture.
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Re: Characters who were wasted in the TOP (potential wise)

Post by ruler9871 » Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:59 pm

You aren't making any logical sense.
BWri wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:25 am
My problem is he feels too strongly for alternate universe Saiyans, one of which he met once before the tournament, the others he's never met, and others he's only heard stories about. He doesn't show this same care to the Saiyans of his own universe. No interest in keeping Broly or Paragus alive, no interest in reviving and reforming his own people with the Super DBs. No interest in stopping the fight with Broly and explaining that Frieza killed their people. It just doesn't add up for me. Seems like two different Vegetas. The Saiyan savior and the "I only care about my family of half-Saiyans" Vegetas.
1. Why would he wanna keep Broly or Paragus alive went they are his sworn enemies (especially Paragus who hated his dad)? That's a stupid argument.

2. He has no access to the Super DBs (which are scatted across the multiverse, which he can't travel through freely).

3. "Seems like two different Vegetas. The Saiyan savior and the "I only care about my family of half-Saiyans" Vegetas."
Then you have an extremely one-dimensional view of the character.
BWri wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:25 am
I think it is out of character and not because people can't change, but because Vegeta isn't being consistent.
The Buu saga and onward (even in GT) made it clear that Vegeta gained a strong value for family. So no, its not inconsistent at all with how Vegeta currently is. If it was Pre-Cell Games Vegeta you would have had a point.
BWri wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:25 am
Rage boost are not the same as Nakama power. Rage boosts are rage boosts. Many things can trigger them, but its never been a power up gained from the desire to protect a friend. Protecting friends goes into it somewhat, but its usually motivated by fury & vengeance and many times happens after said friend is dead whereas Nakama boosts usually happen to protect said friend from death. That's a huuuuuuuge difference. Enough to take the story in a totally different direction.
Rage boost & Nakama boost are the same damn thing. You are being in denial. They are literally both hyper-emotional, resolve based power ups. It doesn't matter if its from rage, love, fear, hate, etc. If its emotion or ideal based, then they are from the same narrative cloth.

"Protecting friends goes into it somewhat, but its usually motivated by fury & vengeance and many times happens after said friend is dead whereas Nakama boosts usually happen to protect said friend from death."

That's the same damn thing lmao.

BWri wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:25 am
This actually helps my point. This is what I think of when I think of Vegeta's intense reverence to his race, but U6 isn't exactly his race. They don't share his history and biologically they are different. But with this modern era Vegeta, his own race is dead and he has shown that he doesn't want to revive them. He'd shown he doesn't care much about Paragus and Broly who have a connection with his father and history. He didn't even try to stop the fight with them or explain that Frieza killed their people. He ultimately decided to kill Broly while fused even though he greatly overpowered him. Luckily a non-Saiyan had enough sympathy for Broly to save his life otherwise Broly, a surviving Saiyan, would be dead. Where was the Saiyan savior here? Where was the mercy he showed Universe 6?

*edit: When I say U6 isn't his race, I just mean his connection to U7 Saiyans should be much higher. I think it makes sense that he'd have a connection to Saiyans of any ilk, but it doesn't add up to me that he doesn't treat Saiyans like Broly with this same soft-heartedness considering they are literally more connected through biology, history, tragedy, and culture.
1. How in the world do those videos help your point when they actually refute it? If he didn't have any Saiyan pride those moments wouldn't have existed.

Again, Broly & Paragus are his sworn enemies that have a grudge against him that doesn't involve Freeza. So it makes no sense for him not to want them dead.

2. Saiyans are Saiyans regardless if they are from a different universe or not. Humans are also divided into different histories and ethnic groups (complete with biological differences between them) but we're all still Homo Sapiens in the end. So the "different history/biology" argument doesn't work.

Neither Vegeta nor even Goku treats or views the U6 Saiyans differently. Hell, when Vegeta made his speech to Belmod about the power of the Saiyans he didn't exclude the U6 ones.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Characters who were wasted in the TOP (potential wise)

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:26 pm

BWri wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:54 am
That's fair. I still think it odd he had no investment. Like he didn't care either way. He didn't try to convince him to let go of his grudge. He didn't try to explain things, or let him know the history of how Frieza killed the Saiyans. That's what I mean. Like if he tried something, I would have the sense that Vegeta cares about Saiyans. But he treated Broly and Paragus like two random guys.
I think Vegeta would be the last person Paragus would want to be convinced to for to drop his grudge since it was the wild discrepancy in power between Broly and Vegeta as infants that fuels King Vegeta's decision to cast out Broly.
I don't think Vegeta's ambivalence makes much sense. Especially when caring about Saiyans is supposedly a huge part of his development in the previous arc. It doesn't add up.

And they were willing to kill him at the end of the day. I know he was out of control, but only Goku showed any ounce of mercy, but even then it only seemed like it was because Broly was a strong guy.
Vegeta giving a shit about people is based on what he knows. What does Vegeta know about Broly to make him give a shit about him? Nothing. In fact, Broly and Vegeta don't share a single conversation in the entire movie. The only thing that Vegeta is acquainted with in regards to Broly, is that Broly was conditioned to attack and kill Vegeta on sight. It's direct contrast with how Vegeta and Cabba get acquainted with one another, which was far more civilised.
This is ultimately the reasoning, but to me, it doesn't really fit. He is proud of Saiyans and Saiyan potential, yet he's completely shafted U7 Saiyans (true blooded). He doesn't seem interested at all. I just don't see how one meeting with Cabba and the trading of a few words about an alternate universe of Saiyans can make Vegeta so emotionally invested in U6, while being so ambivalent about the Saiyans of U7 who have this huge connection with his own homeworld, his own history, hell, even his own father. He has expressed that he doesn't want to wish the Saiyans of U7 back. Understandable, seeing as how they are ruthless, but if he can change then wouldn't he think he could he could lead them to change as well? I get it though, its a lot of work, but the ambivalence to Broly and Paragus is just too much. I can't connect these two different Vegeta's.
The other U7 Saiyans have done more than enough with Vegeta needing to oversee them. Goku, Gohan, Goten and Trunks were all shown training without the input of Vegeta in Z and Super. I mean, Vegeta's shtick for 2/3 of Super is basically a much healthier version of his desire to keep up with Goku. So he certainly keeps tabs on what's going on in his universe. Vegeta's already very well versed in what the Saiyans of his universe are capable of. He's been keeping tabs on how strong Goku has gotten, he's very well aware of Gohan's latent potential, and Goten and Trunks have their Fusion Dance gimmick which Vegeta is knowledgeable of.

It isn't just what Vegeta knows about the Saiyans of Universe 6 that garners his immense interest, it's what he doesn't know the Saiyans in that universe and what they don't know about themselves.The potential that he sees in a race of Saiyans that haven't scratched the surface of Super Saiyan, combed with the monarchy system that the the Saiyans in that universe utilize -- given that there is a King that rules the Saiyan race in that universe -- which provided that nostalgic throwback for Vegeta to not want to see it disappear forever.

The Saiyans that Vegeta grew up with were shitheads, who liked to live shitheads and died as shitheads. I don't see why Vegeta, or anyone for that matter, should give two flying fucks about the Saiyans that Vegeta grew up with. Especially since there's no guarantee even if they were brought back to life they would change like Vegeta did. it took an extreme amount of fortunate circumstances for Vegeta to become a decent person. Circumstances the Saiyans of Vegeta's time very likely wouldn't have if they were brought back to life to the present day.
This is fine, but there's no build. As you say, a personal connection is needed. He had a few moments with Cabba one time before, and now he's the U6 protector??? And he simultaneously shows no desire to preserve or protect any Saiyans in U7 outside of his family. I can't resolve that. And mind, Cabba is the only Saiyan from U6 he connected to. He had no moments with Kale of Caulifla, no personal connection and he only heard of the King of Sadala from hearsay.
The personal investment Vegeta has with Universe 6 comes down to the Saiyan race occupying it. We know how the Saiyan's of Universe 6 are almost a complete contrast to the evolution of the Saiyans in U7 before the main story began.

For Vegeta, knowing that there is a race identical to his, but very uneducated in the fundamentals of Super Saiyan transformations and has a ruler who is very similar in nature to Vegeta. Just the pure fascination of that kind of scenario is enough for Vegeta to invested into. It also help that when Cabba introduced himself he was formal, well-spoken, polite, shows an adept nature in battle and their interactions take place in a less personally threatening circumstances that Vegeta is fully aware of beforehand.

In contrast, Broly and Paragus established themselves in the most hostile fashion possible, by, well, trying to kill Vegeta (and Goku). And Goku and Vegeta are mostly perplexed as to why Paragus would have an axe to grind with Vegeta after all this time.
At the end of the day, he's willing to use the Super DB's to wish the Saiyans of U6 back, essentially people he doesn't know, cuz really you don't know someone after one or two meetings, while the Saiyans he grew up with need to stay dead because he can't be bothered to help reform them. It's weak whichever way you break it down.
It's also important to take into context how much Vegeta has changed as a person. He's a very much changed man compared to the complete evil, sadistic, heartless, unsympathetic bastard he was in the for most of his life. He developed into a better person. He became more empathetic. But that doesn't mean he's going to be sympathetic to every person -- let alone every Saiyan -- he encounters without a personal and reasonable justification.

Cabba's a unique case for Vegeta. Cabba's introduction leads to Vegeta's gaining a new perspective on his race. The lack of their knowledge of Super Saiyan, how they became a military force dedicated to protecting their planet and how they became mercenaries for hire.

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Re: Characters who were wasted in the TOP (potential wise)

Post by BWri » Wed Apr 03, 2019 2:42 am

ruler9871 wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:59 pm
You aren't making any logical sense.
BWri wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:25 am
My problem is he feels too strongly for alternate universe Saiyans, one of which he met once before the tournament, the others he's never met, and others he's only heard stories about. He doesn't show this same care to the Saiyans of his own universe. No interest in keeping Broly or Paragus alive, no interest in reviving and reforming his own people with the Super DBs. No interest in stopping the fight with Broly and explaining that Frieza killed their people. It just doesn't add up for me. Seems like two different Vegetas. The Saiyan savior and the "I only care about my family of half-Saiyans" Vegetas.
1. Why would he wanna keep Broly or Paragus alive went they are his sworn enemies (especially Paragus who hated his dad)? That's a stupid argument.

2. He has no access to the Super DBs (which are scatted across the multiverse, which he can't travel through freely).

3. "Seems like two different Vegetas. The Saiyan savior and the "I only care about my family of half-Saiyans" Vegetas."
Then you have an extremely one-dimensional view of the character.
BWri wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:25 am
I think it is out of character and not because people can't change, but because Vegeta isn't being consistent.
The Buu saga and onward (even in GT) made it clear that Vegeta gained a strong value for family. So no, its not inconsistent at all with how Vegeta currently is. If it was Pre-Cell Games Vegeta you would have had a point.
BWri wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:25 am
Rage boost are not the same as Nakama power. Rage boosts are rage boosts. Many things can trigger them, but its never been a power up gained from the desire to protect a friend. Protecting friends goes into it somewhat, but its usually motivated by fury & vengeance and many times happens after said friend is dead whereas Nakama boosts usually happen to protect said friend from death. That's a huuuuuuuge difference. Enough to take the story in a totally different direction.
Rage boost & Nakama boost are the same damn thing. You are being in denial. They are literally both hyper-emotional, resolve based power ups. It doesn't matter if its from rage, love, fear, hate, etc. If its emotion or ideal based, then they are from the same narrative cloth.

"Protecting friends goes into it somewhat, but its usually motivated by fury & vengeance and many times happens after said friend is dead whereas Nakama boosts usually happen to protect said friend from death."

That's the same damn thing lmao.

BWri wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:25 am
This actually helps my point. This is what I think of when I think of Vegeta's intense reverence to his race, but U6 isn't exactly his race. They don't share his history and biologically they are different. But with this modern era Vegeta, his own race is dead and he has shown that he doesn't want to revive them. He'd shown he doesn't care much about Paragus and Broly who have a connection with his father and history. He didn't even try to stop the fight with them or explain that Frieza killed their people. He ultimately decided to kill Broly while fused even though he greatly overpowered him. Luckily a non-Saiyan had enough sympathy for Broly to save his life otherwise Broly, a surviving Saiyan, would be dead. Where was the Saiyan savior here? Where was the mercy he showed Universe 6?

*edit: When I say U6 isn't his race, I just mean his connection to U7 Saiyans should be much higher. I think it makes sense that he'd have a connection to Saiyans of any ilk, but it doesn't add up to me that he doesn't treat Saiyans like Broly with this same soft-heartedness considering they are literally more connected through biology, history, tragedy, and culture.
1. How in the world do those videos help your point when they actually refute it? If he didn't have any Saiyan pride those moments wouldn't have existed.

Again, Broly & Paragus are his sworn enemies that have a grudge against him that doesn't involve Freeza. So it makes no sense for him not to want them dead.

2. Saiyans are Saiyans regardless if they are from a different universe or not. Humans are also divided into different histories and ethnic groups (complete with biological differences between them) but we're all still Homo Sapiens in the end. So the "different history/biology" argument doesn't work.

Neither Vegeta nor even Goku treats or views the U6 Saiyans differently. Hell, when Vegeta made his speech to Belmod about the power of the Saiyans he didn't exclude the U6 ones.
Alright bud. I made my point.
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Re: Characters who were wasted in the TOP (potential wise)

Post by BWri » Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:51 am

Lord Beerus wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:26 pm
I think Vegeta would be the last person Paragus would want to be convinced to for to drop his grudge since it was the wild discrepancy in power between Broly and Vegeta as infants that fuels King Vegeta's decision to cast out Broly.
True, but my point is that Vegeta, the Saiyan savior didn't even try anything. If he has all this Saiyan compassion, enough to save a whole other universe, why can't he attempt to save 2 Saiyans from his own tribe?
Vegeta giving a shit about people is based on what he knows. What does Vegeta know about Broly to make him give a shit about him?
If that's the case, what does he know about Kale and Caulifla? Yet he has a strong enough desire to save them too. He at least knows Broly is a part of his dead tribe/clan/people.
Nothing. In fact, Broly and Vegeta don't share a single conversation in the entire movie.

Exactly my point. Vegeta doesn't attempt to reason, doesn't attempt to get to know a surviving member of his tribe, even when he clearly had the upper hand and could leverage more words out of Broly. He didn't try to smooth the situation over or let the 2 know that Frieza was manipulating them. Just like with Goku, Vegeta's only interest in Broly showed to be his strength, not in preserving the life of a surviving Saiyan.
The only thing that Vegeta is acquainted with in regards to Broly, is that Broly was conditioned to attack and kill Vegeta on sight. It's direct contrast with how Vegeta and Cabba get acquainted with one another, which was far more civilised.
Yes, but this shouldn't make him completely lose his compassion towards a fellow Saiyan. I mean, essentially universe 6 was trying to kill both him and his loved ones in the ToP (circumstances, I know). Kale and Kefla provided some of the biggest threats in that regard, yet he still had the compassion to ressurrect them. And he should know at this point that a Saiyan can be reformed.
The other U7 Saiyans have done more than enough with Vegeta needing to oversee them. Goku, Gohan, Goten and Trunks were all shown training without the input of Vegeta in Z and Super. I mean, Vegeta's shtick for 2/3 of Super is basically a much healthier version of his desire to keep up with Goku. So he certainly keeps tabs on what's going on in his universe.

Earth, you mean? Because that's another wasted part of Vegeta's character. The fact that he doesn't really have any space adventures. I don't get the feeling he keeps up with interplanetary politics at all.
Vegeta's already very well versed in what the Saiyans of his universe are capable of. He's been keeping tabs on how strong Goku has gotten, he's very well aware of Gohan's latent potential, and Goten and Trunks have their Fusion Dance gimmick which Vegeta is knowledgeable of.

It isn't just what Vegeta knows about the Saiyans of Universe 6 that garners his immense interest, it's what he doesn't know the Saiyans in that universe and what they don't know about themselves.The potential that he sees in a race of Saiyans that haven't scratched the surface of Super Saiyan, combed with the monarchy system that the the Saiyans in that universe utilize -- given that there is a King that rules the Saiyan race in that universe -- which provided that nostalgic throwback for Vegeta to not want to see it disappear forever.

The Saiyans that Vegeta grew up with were shitheads, who liked to live shitheads and died as shitheads. I don't see why Vegeta, or anyone for that matter, should give two flying fucks about the Saiyans that Vegeta grew up with. Especially since there's no guarantee even if they were brought back to life they would change like Vegeta did. it took an extreme amount of fortunate circumstances for Vegeta to become a decent person. Circumstances the Saiyans of Vegeta's time very likely wouldn't have if they were brought back to life to the present day.
That's a good explanation, and honestly the one I was looking for someone else to say. I still have a problem with it, but I can see the logic. In a way U6 almost seems like the idyllic version of the Saiyan race, especially with where Vegeta is now in his life. It's almost too convenient ... You see my problem with that?

Out of universe, a circumstance has been created that allows Vegeta to express a heroic nature of self sacrifice and protection of the Saiyan race he's longed professed to love and revere. Saving them is simple and clean, because he can just make a wish and walk away from it. However, because ressurrecting his own people would provide a type of narrative impediment that would slow things down and force Vegeta to actually deal with something that would tax him emotionally and intellectually, it's not attempted.

In-universe, it just shows that Vegeta's motives are ultimately selfish. Which is fine. There's nothing wrong with him having his own desires. My problems is that Super is presenting him as this selfless Saiyan-savior, when really, just like Goku, he's only interested in cultivating strong people to fight. There's more to it with Vegeta, a genuine love and admiration for his people which is transferred to U6, but when it comes to helping his own people/tribe/clan, who've been wiped out by a Tyrant he lets gallivant across the universe (again, out of universe convenience) he doesn't even attempt to share an ounce of that mercy/selflessness even though he shares much more with them.
The personal investment Vegeta has with Universe 6 comes down to the Saiyan race occupying it. We know how the Saiyan's of Universe 6 are almost a complete contrast to the evolution of the Saiyans in U7 before the main story began.
This is why I say he should be much more connected to Saiyans of his own universe like Broly. Essentially, Saiyans of U6 are almost like a different race, and their culture and history have diverged enough that it's basically the opposite of U7 culture. I get your point though.
For Vegeta, knowing that there is a race identical to his, but very uneducated in the fundamentals of Super Saiyan transformations and has a ruler who is very similar in nature to Vegeta. Just the pure fascination of that kind of scenario is enough for Vegeta to invested into. It also help that when Cabba introduced himself he was formal, well-spoken, polite, shows an adept nature in battle and their interactions take place in a less personally threatening circumstances that Vegeta is fully aware of beforehand.
That's an interesting point. IDK. I have a hard time seeing how this would ultimately effect his desire to protect one Saiyan over another, the polite/formal/well-spoken part I mean. This is Vegeta we're talking about. Moreso, than even Piccolo, Vegeta doesn't mind being in rough company. As long as you're strong and don't pose a direct threat to his life, he seems relatively okay with you.

Before you mention Broly, I'll say that he didn't pose a direct threat on Vegeta's life until he went full Ikari Oozaru or whatever. Vegeta had ample time to try to cool the situation and explain things to him and Paragus before it got to that point, seeing as how he was strong enough to have everything well in hand.
In contrast, Broly and Paragus established themselves in the most hostile fashion possible, by, well, trying to kill Vegeta (and Goku). And Goku and Vegeta are mostly perplexed as to why Paragus would have an axe to grind with Vegeta after all this time.
True, but Vegeta was much stronger than Broly at the start and could leverage that power to show mercy, demonstrating that he doesn't carry his father's stupid grudge and explain to them that they are the last surviving Saiyans in the universe and that Frieza killed their race. He could explain that they need to rebuild and promise to protect them since they are all that's left. He had the ability to do all that. The only person who could try to stop him was Frieza and in that regard, I think Goku would have his back.

Goku and Vegeta simply don't care. That was my biggest gripe with the movie. Vegeta has all this history (mostly by association) with Paragus and Broly and yet he really doesn't even interact with them or express curiosity for his beloved Saiyan race. His reaction is more like, "Eh, let's see what this guy can do now."
It's also important to take into context how much Vegeta has changed as a person. He's a very much changed man compared to the complete evil, sadistic, heartless, unsympathetic bastard he was in the for most of his life. He developed into a better person. He became more empathetic. But that doesn't mean he's going to be sympathetic to every person -- let alone every Saiyan -- he encounters without a personal and reasonable justification.
That's partly my point. He attaches to the U6 Saiyans way too easily. And for him to have an attachment so strong that it motivates him to transform is beyond ridiculous. I would be okay with this if he expressed some, even a little bitty tiny desire to save Broly and Paragus. It just doesn't connect IMO.
Cabba's a unique case for Vegeta. Cabba's introduction leads to Vegeta's gaining a new perspective on his race. The lack of their knowledge of Super Saiyan, how they became a military force dedicated to protecting their planet and how they became mercenaries for hire.
This is really cool actually. I wish we got an opportunity to see Vegeta experience this firsthand (plus I really really want to see this firsthand :D ), but at this point anything related U6 Sadala is hearsay to Vegeta, something he heard through Cabba, a guy he met once before. The fact that that's strong enough motivation to save a whole other universe of Saiyans, yet he can't be bothered to spend a single minute trying to save the remnants of his own people is something I'm not going to ever connect narratively. I can see your case for this having some selfish motivations, but its presented as a wholly selfless motivation. It just doesn't add up to me, and all I can see is the strings being pulled by the writers to create these various moments.
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Re: Characters who were wasted in the TOP (potential wise)

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:19 pm

funrush wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:08 pm
Gohan and Hit could've had a bit more to do.

I think they missed an opportunity by not reviving Dabura. He'd have been a lot more interesting & believable than Roshi.
While that's an interesting idea, isn't Dabura implied to be a Makaio/Makaioshin? Or at least some kind of equivalent of the Kaioshin for the Demon Realm. And gods aren't allowed to participate in the tournament.
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Re: Characters who were wasted in the TOP (potential wise)

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:58 pm

BWri wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:51 am
True, but my point is that Vegeta, the Saiyan savior didn't even try anything. If he has all this Saiyan compassion, enough to save a whole other universe, why can't he attempt to save 2 Saiyans from his own tribe?
Why should Vegeta try in that scenario to console Broly? That's like Goku trying to console and reform Vegeta when they first met. It's not going to work because there are too many factors working against it. I mean, Goku in that movie tried to reason with Broly, and that went nowhere. Broly still tried to kill Vegeta and Goku.
If that's the case, what does he know about Kale and Caulifla? Yet he has a strong enough desire to save them too. He at least knows Broly is a part of his dead tribe/clan/people.
It isn't just Cabba specifically that Vegeta becomes attached. Cabba is basically a representation of the Saiyan's of Universe 6: Uneducated on the mechanics and possibilities of Saiyan transformations, with the potential to become very strong under proper tutelage. Remember, it's established that nobody in Universe 6, let alone the Saiyans, knew about the existence of Super Saiyan. That revelation angered Vegeta just as much as it intrigued him about the Saiyans of Universe 6. And the more he fond about the Saiyans of Universe 6, the more it interested him.
Exactly my point. Vegeta doesn't attempt to reason, doesn't attempt to get to know a surviving member of his tribe, even when he clearly had the upper hand and could leverage more words out of Broly. He didn't try to smooth the situation over or let the 2 know that Frieza was manipulating them. Just like with Goku, Vegeta's only interest in Broly showed to be his strength, not in preserving the life of a surviving Saiyan.
Paragus always wanted to revenge against King Vegeta, either directly or by proxy. Freeza's role was basically to give Paragus that platform to do so. Yes, Freeza instigated Broly becoming stronger by killing Paragus, but prior to that Broly more than demonstrated his capabilities in battle allowing his keep up with Goku, despite them becoming Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue.
Yes, but this shouldn't make him completely lose his compassion towards a fellow Saiyan. I mean, essentially universe 6 was trying to kill both him and his loved ones in the ToP (circumstances, I know). Kale and Kefla provided some of the biggest threats in that regard, yet he still had the compassion to ressurrect them. And he should know at this point that a Saiyan can be reformed.
Everyone has certain limits to compassion. And think Vegeta has every right to not feel completely sympathetic to a person who doesn't give any kind of context as to why he is attacking him with the intent to kill. Let's not it twisted here, Broly shares just as much responsibility to tell Vegeta why he's focused on beating the shit out of him.
Earth, you mean? Because that's another wasted part of Vegeta's character. The fact that he doesn't really have any space adventures. I don't get the feeling he keeps up with interplanetary politics at all.
Well, Earth is basically the centre of the universe at this point, if we're take what we know about the amount of planets that have life on the universe. :)
Vegeta's already very well versed in what the Saiyans of his universe are capable of. He's been keeping tabs on how strong Goku has gotten, he's very well aware of Gohan's latent potential, and Goten and Trunks have their Fusion Dance gimmick which Vegeta is knowledgeable of.

It isn't just what Vegeta knows about the Saiyans of Universe 6 that garners his immense interest, it's what he doesn't know the Saiyans in that universe and what they don't know about themselves.The potential that he sees in a race of Saiyans that haven't scratched the surface of Super Saiyan, combed with the monarchy system that the the Saiyans in that universe utilize -- given that there is a King that rules the Saiyan race in that universe -- which provided that nostalgic throwback for Vegeta to not want to see it disappear forever.

The Saiyans that Vegeta grew up with were shitheads, who liked to live shitheads and died as shitheads. I don't see why Vegeta, or anyone for that matter, should give two flying fucks about the Saiyans that Vegeta grew up with. Especially since there's no guarantee even if they were brought back to life they would change like Vegeta did. it took an extreme amount of fortunate circumstances for Vegeta to become a decent person. Circumstances the Saiyans of Vegeta's time very likely wouldn't have if they were brought back to life to the present day.
That's a good explanation, and honestly the one I was looking for someone else to say. I still have a problem with it, but I can see the logic. In a way U6 almost seems like the idyllic version of the Saiyan race, especially with where Vegeta is now in his life. It's almost too convenient ... You see my problem with that?

Out of universe, a circumstance has been created that allows Vegeta to express a heroic nature of self sacrifice and protection of the Saiyan race he's longed professed to love and revere. Saving them is simple and clean, because he can just make a wish and walk away from it. However, because ressurrecting his own people would provide a type of narrative impediment that would slow things down and force Vegeta to actually deal with something that would tax him emotionally and intellectually, it's not attempted.

In-universe, it just shows that Vegeta's motives are ultimately selfish. Which is fine. There's nothing wrong with him having his own desires. My problems is that Super is presenting him as this selfless Saiyan-savior, when really, just like Goku, he's only interested in cultivating strong people to fight. There's more to it with Vegeta, a genuine love and admiration for his people which is transferred to U6, but when it comes to helping his own people/tribe/clan, who've been wiped out by a Tyrant he lets gallivant across the universe (again, out of universe convenience) he doesn't even attempt to share an ounce of that mercy/selflessness even though he shares much more with them.
The personal investment Vegeta has with Universe 6 comes down to the Saiyan race occupying it. We know how the Saiyan's of Universe 6 are almost a complete contrast to the evolution of the Saiyans in U7 before the main story began.
This is why I say he should be much more connected to Saiyans of his own universe like Broly. Essentially, Saiyans of U6 are almost like a different race, and their culture and history have diverged enough that it's basically the opposite of U7 culture. I get your point though.
For Vegeta, knowing that there is a race identical to his, but very uneducated in the fundamentals of Super Saiyan transformations and has a ruler who is very similar in nature to Vegeta. Just the pure fascination of that kind of scenario is enough for Vegeta to invested into. It also help that when Cabba introduced himself he was formal, well-spoken, polite, shows an adept nature in battle and their interactions take place in a less personally threatening circumstances that Vegeta is fully aware of beforehand.
That's an interesting point. IDK. I have a hard time seeing how this would ultimately effect his desire to protect one Saiyan over another, the polite/formal/well-spoken part I mean. This is Vegeta we're talking about. Moreso, than even Piccolo, Vegeta doesn't mind being in rough company. As long as you're strong and don't pose a direct threat to his life, he seems relatively okay with you.

Before you mention Broly, I'll say that he didn't pose a direct threat on Vegeta's life until he went full Ikari Oozaru or whatever. Vegeta had ample time to try to cool the situation and explain things to him and Paragus before it got to that point, seeing as how he was strong enough to have everything well in hand.
True, but Vegeta was much stronger than Broly at the start and could leverage that power to show mercy, demonstrating that he doesn't carry his father's stupid grudge and explain to them that they are the last surviving Saiyans in the universe and that Frieza killed their race. He could explain that they need to rebuild and promise to protect them since they are all that's left. He had the ability to do all that. The only person who could try to stop him was Frieza and in that regard, I think Goku would have his back.

Goku and Vegeta simply don't care. That was my biggest gripe with the movie. Vegeta has all this history (mostly by association) with Paragus and Broly and yet he really doesn't even interact with them or express curiosity for his beloved Saiyan race. His reaction is more like, "Eh, let's see what this guy can do now."
How could have Vegeta shown mercy? Broly would have just kept coming back at him because that's what's he been conditioned to do: keep fighting until either he or his opponent dies. There's no way with how socially inept and downright feral Broly was, that he would have even understood the concept of mercy being shown to him. From Broly perspective, that may have just been an opportunity to attack. Hell, that's what happen when Goku gets the upper hand against Broly as a SSJG. Broly was bound to follow his father orders -- something made demonstrably clear throughout the movie -- and his fathers order were to kill Vegeta. And nothing would change that unless Paragus died.
That's partly my point. He attaches to the U6 Saiyans way too easily. And for him to have an attachment so strong that it motivates him to transform is beyond ridiculous. I would be okay with this if he expressed some, even a little bitty tiny desire to save Broly and Paragus. It just doesn't connect IMO.
Goku attached himself to Upa very easily to the point where he was willing to risk his life and battle an entire army to bring Upa's dead father back to life. But that's because Goku can be a very empathetic person. Vegeta's character has evolved to that same point. Where he's willing to go the extra mile for something that has a lot or personal value to him, and what he perceives, as the right thing to do.
This is really cool actually. I wish we got an opportunity to see Vegeta experience this firsthand (plus I really really want to see this firsthand :D ), but at this point anything related U6 Sadala is hearsay to Vegeta, something he heard through Cabba, a guy he met once before. The fact that that's strong enough motivation to save a whole other universe of Saiyans, yet he can't be bothered to spend a single minute trying to save the remnants of his own people is something I'm not going to ever connect narratively. I can see your case for this having some selfish motivations, but its presented as a wholly selfless motivation. It just doesn't add up to me, and all I can see is the strings being pulled by the writers to create these various moments.
The big difference between interactions with Broly and Cabba is that Cabba gave Vegeta genuine incentive. Broly didn't. Mercy is a two-way street. You can't expect to be given mercy if you don't display any valid reason to be given it in the first place. Even diabolical bastards like Freeza begged for help before they were shown mercy. Broly didn't make that effort. He just kept fighting and fighting, even when Goku literally restrained him and tried to talk some sense into him.

In comparison, Cabba promised that if Universe 6 were to win the Tournament of Power, Universe 6 would use the wish with the Super Dragon Balls to resurrect Universe 7. Cabba made that promise after Vegeta had told him he was going to use the Super Dragon Balls to resurrect to Universe 6. Vegeta displayed compassion and Cabba returned the favor, making Vegeta's desire all the more personal to him. It's a small thing, but it's make huge difference with regards to the personal preference of character motivations.

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Re: Characters who were wasted in the TOP (potential wise)

Post by BWri » Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:57 am

Lord Beerus wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:58 pm
Why should Vegeta try in that scenario to console Broly?

I didn't say console. I said save. If he cares about his illustrious race so much, you'd think he'd try to save them, even if they are trying to kill him, you'd think he'd at least try calm the situation and explain things. He wasn't in any immediate danger at the start, so plenty of time to try to get them on his side. Problem is, he didn't try.
That's like Goku trying to console and reform Vegeta when they first met.
Again, I specifically said save in this instance, and yes, Goku did save Vegeta even if it wasn't advisable at the time. I don't compare the two because Goku's decision to save Vegeta was rooted in a similar selfishness to him showing mercy to Piccolo but there keeping Kami alive was an extra motive.
It's not going to work because there are too many factors working against it. I mean, Goku in that movie tried to reason with Broly, and that went nowhere. Broly still tried to kill Vegeta and Goku.
I think this is where we'll maybe see eye to eye. I don't care if it wouldn't have worked. It probably should've have worked, with everything that was going on. I can agree with that. But where I take umbrage, is in the fact that Vegeta didn't try to show them mercy. He didn't try to get the full story from them or to share the true history of the end of the Saiyans. At this point, I feel that is 100% against his character. I think he would have taken control of that situation and tried to get Broly and Paragus to his side or at the very least set the record straight, but he showed 0 interest. Even if he tried and failed, I would have been okay with that.
It isn't just Cabba specifically that Vegeta becomes attached. Cabba is basically a representation of the Saiyan's of Universe 6: Uneducated on the mechanics and possibilities of Saiyan transformations, with the potential to become very strong under proper tutelage. Remember, it's established that nobody in Universe 6, let alone the Saiyans, knew about the existence of Super Saiyan. That revelation angered Vegeta just as much as it intrigued him about the Saiyans of Universe 6. And the more he fond about the Saiyans of Universe 6, the more it interested him.
I think there's more to it than the fact that they have a ton of potential. To a degree, Vegeta doesn't care about universe 6 either. He's not going to go there and train a bunch of Saiyans if it interferes with his own training. That's part of my problem with the whole scenario. If Vegeta sees all this potential in U6, why doesn't he go there and start training them? Oh, right, he doesn't care THAT much. If he cares about their history and culture (which I think he does), why hasn't he gone to visit yet? Even by himself, I think he'd find a way to do it. The story is just inconsistent with his love of Saiyans, using it only conveniently.
Paragus always wanted to revenge against King Vegeta, either directly or by proxy. Freeza's role was basically to give Paragus that platform to do so. Yes, Freeza instigated Broly becoming stronger by killing Paragus, but prior to that Broly more than demonstrated his capabilities in battle allowing his keep up with Goku, despite them becoming Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue.
At the very start though, and before the battle began, Vegeta clearly had the upper hand. At any point before Broly went Berserk, he could have done more to explain the situation to them and get them on his side. Hell, telling them that Frieza killed their entire race might give them doubt, and as soon as he turned Super Saiyan, it might've been enough for Paragus to see firsthand why Frieza was so scared of Saiyan strength and might have been enough to sway him. Hell, denouncing the actions of his father, King Vegeta, might've been enough to sway Paragus and in turn Broly. Vegeta attempted none of that.
Well, Earth is basically the centre of the universe at this point, if we're take what we know about the amount of planets that have life on the universe. :)
Even though Earth has all these powerful people, its still pretty cut off from the rest of the universe aside from the random Jaco and Frieza interlap. So I wouldn't call it the center of the universe. Universal politics are still important, so the ring of planets that Frieza and his splintered forces control is the center along with whatever is in the Ginga Patrol districts (the contested parts anyway).
How could have Vegeta shown mercy? Broly would have just kept coming back at him because that's what's he been conditioned to do: keep fighting until either he or his opponent dies. There's no way with how socially inept and downright feral Broly was, that he would have even understood the concept of mercy being shown to him. From Broly perspective, that may have just been an opportunity to attack. Hell, that's what happen when Goku gets the upper hand against Broly as a SSJG. Broly was bound to follow his father orders -- something made demonstrably clear throughout the movie -- and his fathers order were to kill Vegeta.

I agree that ultimately Broly would be too feral to control, but there is a lot Vegeta could have done at the beginning to prevent a fight from even happening. And if he couldn't, well I would've been satisfied seeing him try. It would've added a nice, appropriate layer to his character that would have been in line with his recent growth as well as statements he made in the Frieza saga about Frieza and his treatment of Saiyans. And its not outside the realm of reality that Paragus could be convinced to stop his crusade. Vegeta just didn't try.
And nothing would change that unless Paragus died.
There's a decent shot that Paragus could be convinced. Not saying its certain and not saying its easy, but with a few facts and revelations, its not impossible that Vegeta could do it. Again, he didn't try. All that mercy he was shown to have leading up to this movie was suddenly dropped, as was his interest in Saiyans of his universe.
Goku attached himself to Upa very easily to the point where he was willing to risk his life and battle an entire army to bring Upa's dead father back to life. But that's because Goku can be a very empathetic person. Vegeta's character has evolved to that same point. Where he's willing to go the extra mile for something that has a lot or personal value to him, and what he perceives, as the right thing to do.
This is a good point actually. I just think there's enough to show that Vegeta would extend this compassion to surviving Saiyans in his own universe. I think he'd do it before he'd do the same for U6 also. I just don't think the writers considered this for whatever reason. Maybe because of run time.
The big difference between interactions with Broly and Cabba is that Cabba gave Vegeta genuine incentive. Broly didn't. Mercy is a two-way street. You can't expect to be given mercy if you don't display any valid reason to be given it in the first place. Even diabolical bastards like Freeza begged for help before they were shown mercy. Broly didn't make that effort. He just kept fighting and fighting, even when Goku literally restrained him and tried to talk some sense into him.
This is an interesting point too. I think this makes sense, but then again, I think Vegeta would have more agency in this situation because he cares about Saiyans. He constantly expresses reverie for his race and on Namek he expressed sadness and anger that Frieza wiped them out during his last moments. I think he would want to remove them from Frieza's service since he himself was basically a captive.
In comparison, Cabba promised that if Universe 6 were to win the Tournament of Power, Universe 6 would use the wish with the Super Dragon Balls to resurrect Universe 7. Cabba made that promise after Vegeta had told him he was going to use the Super Dragon Balls to resurrect to Universe 6. Vegeta displayed compassion and Cabba returned the favor, making Vegeta's desire all the more personal to him. It's a small thing, but it's make huge difference with regards to the personal preference of character motivations.
Yeah, this makes a lot of sense. This is motivation enough for his wish. I still don't think it justifies his special new form. I think they should have kept the U6 Saiyans out of that particular motivation and just focused on his family. The U6 stuff is still weird when he can't show an ounce of compassion for Broly and Paragus. Even without the Broly angle, I can't buy that he'd be this emotionally invested in U6 after a single meeting with Cabba. Just can't buy it. I know Goku was with Upa, but even he didn't get a shiny new form out of it.
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Re: Characters who were wasted in the TOP (potential wise)

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:53 pm

BWri wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:57 am
I didn't say console. I said save. If he cares about his illustrious race so much, you'd think he'd try to save them, even if they are trying to kill him, you'd think he'd at least try calm the situation and explain things. He wasn't in any immediate danger at the start, so plenty of time to try to get them on his side. Problem is, he didn't try.
And how does he save him? By not fighting him? That wouldn't be a wise strategy against a person who keeps attacking him and getting stronger while fighting him. Also, as I previously mentioned, Goku tried to calm the situation and explain things and Broly wasn't having any of it. And that's not even taking into consider how Cheelai and Lemo earlier in the film tried to tell Broly he didn't need to fight when he didn't want to, and didn't have to list to his father's orders.
Again, I specifically said save in this instance, and yes, Goku did save Vegeta even if it wasn't advisable at the time. I don't compare the two because Goku's decision to save Vegeta was rooted in a similar selfishness to him showing mercy to Piccolo but there keeping Kami alive was an extra motive.
Goku didn't show mercy to Piccolo. He gave him the senzu as he knew that if Piccolo died Kami would and he wanted Piccolo be get stronger so that it would motivate Goku to get stronger than him. It's the exact same reason he didn't let Vegeta be killed: he still wanted that kind of challenge.
I think this is where we'll maybe see eye to eye. I don't care if it wouldn't have worked. It probably should've have worked, with everything that was going on. I can agree with that. But where I take umbrage, is in the fact that Vegeta didn't try to show them mercy. He didn't try to get the full story from them or to share the true history of the end of the Saiyans. At this point, I feel that is 100% against his character. I think he would have taken control of that situation and tried to get Broly and Paragus to his side or at the very least set the record straight, but he showed 0 interest. Even if he tried and failed, I would have been okay with that.
Again, why should Vegeta show mercy if it isn't justified. Beyond Vegeta giving a shit about the Saiyans, Vegeta gives a shit about people who present themselves properly and are genuinely good hearted. Cabba fits that criteria, and his further elaboration of the Saiyans in Universe 6 provided the platform for Vegeta to get invested in them. Broly doesn't do anything like that. He just charges at Vegeta, with the intent to attack and kill and give Vegeta no explanation as to why he's fighting him. As far as Vegeta is concerned, and quite justifiable in his assessment, Broly is just a brute conditioned to fight on demand. And Vegeta is so beyond that by that point.

The responsibility doesn't rely solely on Vegeta for Broly to be given mercy. Vegeta's character isn't "I must save all the Saiyans", it's more, "I can't lose what has sentimental value to me". Broly can't be expected to be given mercy by virtue of being a Saiyan. He needs to express himself a manor where sympathy would be justified. And you can't do that when you're constantly trying to fight and not saying a word. If Broly was concerned for his own well-being perhaps he could behaved more appropriately.
I think there's more to it than the fact that they have a ton of potential. To a degree, Vegeta doesn't care about universe 6 either. He's not going to go there and train a bunch of Saiyans if it interferes with his own training. That's part of my problem with the whole scenario. If Vegeta sees all this potential in U6, why doesn't he go there and start training them? Oh, right, he doesn't care THAT much. If he cares about their history and culture (which I think he does), why hasn't he gone to visit yet? Even by himself, I think he'd find a way to do it. The story is just inconsistent with his love of Saiyans, using it only conveniently.
I'm not saying Vegeta cares about all of Universe 6. He's just very intrigued about. The jury is still out about the fashion of which Vegeta will approach the rest of the Saiyans in Universe 6, if at all, as Super is still ongoing. If Super ends, and Vegeta never stops by on Planet Sadala, or if he goes to Planet Sadala and nothing comes from it, then I will hold up my hands and say that everything about Vegeta interacting with Cabba and his SSJB Evolution transformation was vapid bullshit.
At the very start though, and before the battle began, Vegeta clearly had the upper hand. At any point before Broly went Berserk, he could have done more to explain the situation to them and get them on his side. Hell, telling them that Frieza killed their entire race might give them doubt, and as soon as he turned Super Saiyan, it might've been enough for Paragus to see firsthand why Frieza was so scared of Saiyan strength and might have been enough to sway him. Hell, denouncing the actions of his father, King Vegeta, might've been enough to sway Paragus and in turn Broly. Vegeta attempted none of that.
Again, the golden question must be asked, what could Vegeta have said to Broly? He knows jack fucking shit about. And with Broly's initial attitude towards Vegeta, any sympathy towards Broly from Vegeta goes right out the fucking window.

It's very important to take into context that the movie establishes two incredibly important things:

1. Paragus is hellbent on revenge against Vegeta's family
2. Broly is very subservient towards his father

So even if Vegeta tried to talk some sense into him, it would be like talking to a brick wall. Broly is established as a character that doesn't have listen to anyone about anything unless it comes from his father.
Even though Earth has all these powerful people, its still pretty cut off from the rest of the universe aside from the random Jaco and Frieza interlap. So I wouldn't call it the center of the universe. Universal politics are still important, so the ring of planets that Frieza and his splintered forces control is the center along with whatever is in the Ginga Patrol districts (the contested parts anyway).
I'm a bit confused by this point. Earth isn't really cut off from anything.
I agree that ultimately Broly would be too feral to control, but there is a lot Vegeta could have done at the beginning to prevent a fight from even happening. And if he couldn't, well I would've been satisfied seeing him try. It would've added a nice, appropriate layer to his character that would have been in line with his recent growth as well as statements he made in the Frieza saga about Frieza and his treatment of Saiyans. And its not outside the realm of reality that Paragus could be convinced to stop his crusade. Vegeta just didn't try.
Vegeta couldn't have done jack fucking shit. Goku and Vegeta just went to ice continent. Broly, Paragsu and Freeza show up. And Paragus orders Broly to attack. That's the end of it. Any kind of prevention of the fight died the moment Paragus told Broly to attack.

Also, Paragus had nearly 40 years to himself, and still wanted revenge. Even if it was by proxy. That kind of commitment to vengeance can't be quelled.
There's a decent shot that Paragus could be convinced. Not saying its certain and not saying its easy, but with a few facts and revelations, its not impossible that Vegeta could do it. Again, he didn't try. All that mercy he was shown to have leading up to this movie was suddenly dropped, as was his interest in Saiyans of his universe.
As I mentioned before Paragus, had a shitload of time to himself to think about whether vengeance was still worth it. And it was for him. Which should tell you all you need to know about his priorities. And keep in mind, Paragus makes it very clear he's the kind of person who's willing to kill his own kind if it means ensuring a higher survival rate in extreme circumstances.
This is a good point actually. I just think there's enough to show that Vegeta would extend this compassion to surviving Saiyans in his own universe. I think he'd do it before he'd do the same for U6 also. I just don't think the writers considered this for whatever reason. Maybe because of run time.
Vegeta will show compassion to those who actually deserve it. Regardless of if they're a Saiyan or not, if someone presents themselves as a shit head, like Broly did, they shouldn't be expecting a hand out in sympathy.
This is an interesting point too. I think this makes sense, but then again, I think Vegeta would have more agency in this situation because he cares about Saiyans. He constantly expresses reverie for his race and on Namek he expressed sadness and anger that Frieza wiped them out during his last moments. I think he would want to remove them from Frieza's service since he himself was basically a captive.
Vegeta didn't give a shit about his family or by the fact his race got wiped. He flat out says that to Dodoria when Dodoria reveals it was Freeza who killed all the Saiyans. He was more resentful towards Freeza because of Freeza's overwhelming power and that he couldn't do anything to overthrow him. Which was main factor to why Vegeta wanted to obtain immortality and whay Vegeta broke down in terms when Freeza overpowered him.

Yes, Vegeta didn't want Freeza to die by the hands of a Saiyan, but it was more of a case of personal pride, rather than revenge for the entire race. I mean, the first major thing Vegeta did in all of Dragon Ball was kill Nappa, a fellow Saiyan and long time associate of his, because Nappa's back was broken, rendering unable to fight anymore. So if that doesn't tell you how much Vegeta didn't really value his race at that time, I don't know what will.
Yeah, this makes a lot of sense. This is motivation enough for his wish. I still don't think it justifies his special new form. I think they should have kept the U6 Saiyans out of that particular motivation and just focused on his family. The U6 stuff is still weird when he can't show an ounce of compassion for Broly and Paragus. Even without the Broly angle, I can't buy that he'd be this emotionally invested in U6 after a single meeting with Cabba. Just can't buy it. I know Goku was with Upa, but even he didn't get a shiny new form out of it.
I think the new form could have been handled better. But something consistent about Vegeta is that in extreme circumstances he can brute force his ways in to new plateaus of power. He did during the Android/Cell arc, he did it in Battle Of Gods and did it during Resurrection F. I think the execution the Universal Survival arc could have been more palpable. But it's fine for what it is.

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Re: Characters who were wasted in the TOP (potential wise)

Post by Michsi » Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:09 am

Speed-read through the Vegeta/saiyan race debate and there is one thing I'd like to add.

Throughout "Z" I never thought of Vegeta as someone particularly interested in the saiyan race in the context of them being his people, but rather that he was simply infatuated with the idea of being part of the ultimate warrior race and also their prince and strongest among them. It was a ego thing. Even as he was tearfully asking Goku to avenge the saiyans, instead of making me believe that deep down he did care about what happened to his race, it made me feel it was simply his last resort at getting back at Freeza. There was nothing else he could do himself anymore so at the very least he wanted another saiyan to defeat him. Again, an ego thing.

Now, I have no problem with the idea behind the Cabba/Vegeta relationship. Technically, he should've been at a place where he could've developed a mentor/student relationship with young saiyan. It just wasn't handled very well. Aside from the fact that it was another instance where they were ripping of a beloved aspect associated with a different character (Piccolo) having Cabba practically pratfall into reverence makes it feel undeserved. I know it's a writing problem in the end, that they go back and forth with his development depending on who writes him and what his role, but it is still a problem.

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Re: Characters who were wasted in the TOP (potential wise)

Post by BWri » Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:31 am

Lord Beerus wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:53 pm
And how does he save him? By not fighting him?

Essentially, yes. If he can avoid a senseless conflict by using his words, I think he would. Vegeta has shown that he has enough wisdom these days to do this.
That wouldn't be a wise strategy against a person who keeps attacking him and getting stronger while fighting him.
Again, he had the upper hand for a nice stretch of the fight. He didn't use his words even before the start of the fight. He was extremely passive, really, until blows were thrown.
Also, as I previously mentioned, Goku tried to calm the situation and explain things and Broly wasn't having any of it. And that's not even taking into consider how Cheelai and Lemo earlier in the film tried to tell Broly he didn't need to fight when he didn't want to, and didn't have to list to his father's orders.
All of that is fine. Perfect even. I have a problem with the fact that out of all these people, Vegeta didn't try a damn thing to mollify the situation. I would think, that at this point, Vegeta would have a softer touch than Goku (metaphorically speaking) when it comes to surviving Saiyans or at least some semblance of mercy.
BWri wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:57 am
Again, I specifically said save in this instance, and yes, Goku did save Vegeta even if it wasn't advisable at the time. I don't compare the two because Goku's decision to save Vegeta was rooted in a similar selfishness to him showing mercy to Piccolo but there keeping Kami alive was an extra motive.
Goku didn't show mercy to Piccolo. He gave him the senzu as he knew that if Piccolo died Kami would and he wanted Piccolo be get stronger so that it would motivate Goku to get stronger than him. It's the exact same reason he didn't let Vegeta be killed: he still wanted that kind of challenge.
That's very similar to what I said, almost the exact same really. I would say that Goku giving Piccolo a sensu is mercy. What I meant by Goku's selfishness is his desire to fight strong guys.
Again, why should Vegeta show mercy if it isn't justified. Beyond Vegeta giving a shit about the Saiyans, Vegeta gives a shit about people who present themselves properly and are genuinely good hearted.

I've never seen this aspect of Vegeta's character. I don't think it was expressed in the show that he gives a shit about people who present themselves properly, whatever that means. The genuinely good-hearted part could be true ... maybe, then again even if the U6 Saiyans weren't particularly good hearted, whose to say he wouldn't have possessed the same desire to revive them? That angle is so vague and poorly written that I have no idea why he wants to revive these guys. Your earlier explanation of Cabba expressing he'd revive U7 no matter what, makes the most sense to me, because I could see Vegeta wanting to return the favor and respect of his "pupil", but otherwise I have no idea why Vegeta cares so much for these guys in particular.
Cabba fits that criteria, and his further elaboration of the Saiyans in Universe 6 provided the platform for Vegeta to get invested in them. Broly doesn't do anything like that. He just charges at Vegeta, with the intent to attack and kill and give Vegeta no explanation as to why he's fighting him. As far as Vegeta is concerned, and quite justifiable in his assessment, Broly is just a brute conditioned to fight on demand. And Vegeta is so beyond that by that point.
True. It's why I think he would so some mercy. I think seeing another Saiyan being exploited by Frieza like he himself was would make something snap in Vegeta. Or at the very least, it would elicit sympathy. The easiest, most natural experience of sympathy is seeing a situation you have an intimate experience with happen to someone else. It's why a former alchoholic or drug addict might be moved to help others they see dealing with alcoholism or drug addiction. That same person may not have cultivated sympathy for other issues such as LGBTQ, treatment of Veterans, etc. because they've never dealt with it before or had anyone they knew dealing with it because it takes a few extra mental/emotional steps for that kind of sympathy. The situation with Broly and Paragus, would seemingly create the much more natural form of sympathy for Vegeta. They are fellow Saiyans displaced in the universe thanks to Frieza, working for him under the guise of a lie (not knowing he blew up Vegeta), are cutthroats (Vegeta assumes) because its all they've ever known, and the last remaining members of their lost race in U7. All of this applied to Vegeta too at some point. Why wouldn't he have the most natural form of sympathy for these two in this case, especially Broly?

Just remember, I'm not asking for the situation to turn out all sunshine and rainbows, I acknowledge everything you said about Broly and Paragus, I just wanted Vegeta to show he gave a sh**, maybe even some pity. He flaps his gums about Saiyan this, Saiyan that, but really he should just say my genetics this and my genetics that because he doesn't give a damn about Saiyans.
The responsibility doesn't rely solely on Vegeta for Broly to be given mercy. Vegeta's character isn't "I must save all the Saiyans", it's more, "I can't lose what has sentimental value to me".
That's an interesting way to look at it, I must admit. But even so, I think the surviving members of his own race, with ties to his father, and in a similar subservient situation with the tyrant that murdered their entire race would initiate the utmost sentimental value, second only to his family. At the very least, he would do something to preserve that. I can't buy that he'd be this disengaged and uninterested.
Broly can't be expected to be given mercy by virtue of being a Saiyan.

To a degree, I think he would, simply by the virtue of being an ultra rare survivor of Vegeta's extinct race. I'm not even saying it would give a lot of stock in Vegeta's eyes, but you'd think at least enough to try to explain the truth of things to him, why he doesn't need to be working for Frieza, why they should be working together instead, etc.
He needs to express himself a manor where sympathy would be justified. And you can't do that when you're constantly trying to fight and not saying a word. If Broly was concerned for his own well-being perhaps he could behaved more appropriately.
I agree, but my problem isn't with Broly. It's with the guy with the power and knowledge to change the situation if he was so inclined. He didn't even try.
I'm not saying Vegeta cares about all of Universe 6. He's just very intrigued about. The jury is still out about the fashion of which Vegeta will approach the rest of the Saiyans in Universe 6, if at all, as Super is still ongoing. If Super ends, and Vegeta never stops by on Planet Sadala, or if he goes to Planet Sadala and nothing comes from it, then I will hold up my hands and say that everything about Vegeta interacting with Cabba and his SSJB Evolution transformation was vapid bullshit.
I'm just here a bit earlier than you. I can see the writing on the wall. To me, his treatment of surviving U7 Saiyans shows me he hasn't grown much as a character (in-universe). This discussion has helped me see that he still views non-family Saiyans through the lens of trash vs. useful to him, just as he did when he casually tossed Nappa in the air and blew him to smithereens. Otherwise, its just inconsistent--and even worse--shallow writing.
Again, the golden question must be asked, what could Vegeta have said to Broly? He knows jack fucking shit about.

Plenty. He can see that Broly and Paragus are serving Frieza or at the very least, allied with him. He could start by asking why they would serve the guy who blew up all their people and home planet. Broly would probably say nothing, but Paragus might say that he doesn't care either way because of his grudge, he explains to Vegeta that he has to die because of the crimes of his father. Knowing Vegeta, he'd likely say something like "I don't give a damn about my father, he is dead like the rest." He'd probably make a comment on how foolish it is for Saiyans to serve someone like Frieza. Paragus wouldn't care and would sick Broly on Vegeta anyway. They'd start the fight, Broly powers up after fighting a bit and makes Vegeta go SSJ. At this point in the movie, Vegeta had the upper-hand for a bit, but I feel here he would explain that this is what Frieza feared and why he killed everyone. If Paragus knows of the legend, there's probably a 50-50 shot this shocks him into caring about Frieza's heinous crimes and believing that Vegeta is at least telling the truth about that. From there Vegeta can just explain that he is not his father and that he would not have been so petty and jealous to exile someone as talented as Broly. As a matter of fact, he marvels that a Saiyan other than himself could get this strong, which coming from a legendary SSJ like Vegeta, might give Paragus some pride. He could even strike the nail into the coffin by saying that what Frieza really feared was the existence of a Saiyan like Broly and if Broly remained on Vegeta, he would have been wiped out before he could reach the potential that he has today and beyond.

My problem, is that Vegeta tried none of those simple, base level methods of explaining himself. He just didn't care. I really don't want to put this on him as a character. I honestly don't think they thought too hard about his own complex motivations when writing this movie.
And with Broly's initial attitude towards Vegeta, any sympathy towards Broly from Vegeta goes right out the fucking window.
I don't necessarily think so. Let's say you and me are in a similar situation with a tiny little kid who thinks we ... I guess, took his goldfish. We are the last of the, IDK, lizard people, and this tiny kid wants to kill us and he has a rock. The problem for him is we are 250 pounds of all muscle and we are well versed in self defense. We see that the kid wants to kill us, but the thing is we can see ourselves in the kid, his rage, his bloodlust, but we know he can be a great warrior in his own right if he is shown a better way. We didn't take his goldfish btw, so Do we, A.) Fight him wordlessly, simply amusing ourselves in the process. B.) Kill him right away, because damn, he has a rock. C.) Try to explain ourselves to him while avoiding his attacks, because as we see it, he's not really a threat to us as long as we aren't 100% defenseless.

I thought of a few more branches of this scenario and I'm sure you will too, but that just proves that out of all the possible choices, Vegeta chose the laziest one. At the start of the fight, Broly was nothing more than a child to Vegeta, and physically so was Paragus. They weren't a credible enough threat for Vegeta to take seriously. He had the time and opportunity to try to explain things to him to stop the pointless fight.
It's very important to take into context that the movie establishes two incredibly important things:

1. Paragus is hellbent on revenge against Vegeta's family
2. Broly is very subservient towards his father

So even if Vegeta tried to talk some sense into him, it would be like talking to a brick wall. Broly is established as a character that doesn't have listen to anyone about anything unless it comes from his father.
Yes, I agree. Even if Vegeta tried to explain himself, there's a good chance it might fail, but it doesn't change the fact that he didn't try.
I'm a bit confused by this point. Earth isn't really cut off from anything.
It's a remote planet not involved in the planet trade or any other planet politically. It's existence has very little bearing on what happens with the politics of the universe, well, when Frieza isn't going out of his way to try to kill Goku anyway. If Goku hadn't come to Earth, basically no one in the universe would care about it. Even King Cold and Jaco refer to it as a dump.
Vegeta couldn't have done jack fucking shit. Goku and Vegeta just went to ice continent. Broly, Paragsu and Freeza show up. And Paragus orders Broly to attack. That's the end of it. Any kind of prevention of the fight died the moment Paragus told Broly to attack.
He should've yelled "Wait!" really loudly and asked for an opportunity to tie his shoe :lol: . Sometimes people give you that time. In all seriousness, I'll give you that. Mostly because I don't feel like looking for that scene to see how accurate that is. But ultimately, just because a fight starts doesn't mean it can't be stopped before it intensifies.
Also, Paragus had nearly 40 years to himself, and still wanted revenge. Even if it was by proxy. That kind of commitment to vengeance can't be quelled.
Yeah it can. I think Vegeta had all the tools of truth to at least make Paragus doubt his crusade. I'm with you when you say it still might not have worked, but I think he had a good shot at convincing him why they shouldn't be enemies.
As I mentioned before Paragus, had a shitload of time to himself to think about whether vengeance was still worth it. And it was for him. Which should tell you all you need to know about his priorities.

It was also revenge against a whole other person. As long as Vegeta can convince him that he has no connection to his father or his decisions, that might be enough. You never know. The amount of time means little, because Broly and Paragus lived with the suffering of King Vegeta's decision every day of their lives. Just living day to day was a reminder of what that bastard did to them, but again, it wasn't Vegeta who did any of that and he has a decent shot at convincing him of this. He didn't try.
And keep in mind, Paragus makes it very clear he's the kind of person who's willing to kill his own kind if it means ensuring a higher survival rate in extreme circumstances.
I don't think this factors into the discussion we're having. This is more a circumstance of the situation they were in and his love for his son. Realistically, there probably weren't enough resources for the 3 of them to survive if Beet remained alive. To me it shows he has ruthless pragmatism, but quite a lot of care for his son's survival.
Vegeta didn't give a shit about his family or by the fact his race got wiped. He flat out says that to Dodoria when Dodoria reveals it was Freeza who killed all the Saiyans. He was more resentful towards Freeza because of Freeza's overwhelming power and that he couldn't do anything to overthrow him. Which was main factor to why Vegeta wanted to obtain immortality and whay Vegeta broke down in terms when Freeza overpowered him.
I have to look into this more. I'm not sure why, but I have a mixed sense of this. Is there a discrepency between the anime portrayal of Vegeta and the manga portrayal? I believe what you're saying is correct, but I also believe there's been instances of him expressing sadness or regret as to the destruction of planet Vegeta.
Yes, Vegeta didn't want Freeza to die by the hands of a Saiyan, but it was more of a case of personal pride, rather than revenge for the entire race.

You mean, did, right? I think the anime may have added some lines here, but I do remember Vegeta crying about how Frieza wiped out their entire race. It's a bit ambiguous. I can't remember the lines from the manga, but I remember it being a little less emotional.
I mean, the first major thing Vegeta did in all of Dragon Ball was kill Nappa, a fellow Saiyan and long time associate of his, because Nappa's back was broken, rendering unable to fight anymore. So if that doesn't tell you how much Vegeta didn't really value his race at that time, I don't know what will.
This does, but there's also character development, so I thought he grew to care more about his people the closer we got to his death on Namek. I assumed all that stuff with killing Nappa was Saiyan battle culture that Vegeta had outgrew, but I suppose that was a bad assumption since Nappa had no idea it was coming.
I think the new form could have been handled better. But something consistent about Vegeta is that in extreme circumstances he can brute force his ways in to new plateaus of power. He did during the Android/Cell arc, he did it in Battle Of Gods and did it during Resurrection F. I think the execution the Universal Survival arc could have been more palpable. But it's fine for what it is.
Yeah I can't complain too much. I wouldn't have even cared as much if the form didn't look so tacky and thrown-together, or maybe if he didn't get that pride powerup just before.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-

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Re: Characters who were wasted in the TOP (potential wise)

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:10 pm

BWri wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:31 am
Essentially, yes. If he can avoid a senseless conflict by using his words, I think he would. Vegeta has shown that he has enough wisdom these days to do this.
That would be very OOC for Vegeta. Especially if it's against someone who he doesn't have any previous beef with and just attack with no justification. I mean, as empathetic as Vegeta has become, if the situation prevents a good fight for him, he will make the make the most of it.
Again, he had the upper hand for a nice stretch of the fight. He didn't use his words even before the start of the fight. He was extremely passive, really, until blows were thrown.
Again, what could Vegeta say? He knows nothing about Broly. For all Goku and Vegeta, they were Freeza's new lackeys. Broly was conditioned to fight and take orders from his father.
All of that is fine. Perfect even. I have a problem with the fact that out of all these people, Vegeta didn't try a damn thing to mollify the situation. I would think, that at this point, Vegeta would have a softer touch than Goku (metaphorically speaking) when it comes to surviving Saiyans or at least some semblance of mercy.
Vegeta has soft spot for good people. That's why he gives his life to save his family. And why, despite his distastes for fusion techniques, he swallows his pride to fuse with Goku (three times). And why he dances and acts like a showman to appease Beerus in Battle Of Gods. Vegeta's knows what at stakes and how the lives of the people that mean a lot to him could be lost.

Vegeta won't give preferential treatment unless it's justified. He cares for the general people of Earth, his family and close allies because he grown close to them and come appreciate life a hell of a lot more. Cabba, and his exposition of the Universe 6, gave a justification for Vegeta go out on a limb for them because through Cabba he sees potential for growth as well as a demeanor that's more grounded and relatable to the person that Vegeta has developed into.
That's very similar to what I said, almost the exact same really. I would say that Goku giving Piccolo a sensu is mercy. What I meant by Goku's selfishness is his desire to fight strong guys.
Point taken.
I've never seen this aspect of Vegeta's character. I don't think it was expressed in the show that he gives a shit about people who present themselves properly, whatever that means. The genuinely good-hearted part could be true ... maybe, then again even if the U6 Saiyans weren't particularly good hearted, whose to say he wouldn't have possessed the same desire to revive them? That angle is so vague and poorly written that I have no idea why he wants to revive these guys. Your earlier explanation of Cabba expressing he'd revive U7 no matter what, makes the most sense to me, because I could see Vegeta wanting to return the favor and respect of his "pupil", but otherwise I have no idea why Vegeta cares so much for these guys in particular.
I'm just saying that Vegeta won't give fuck about a person who acts outwardly like a shithead. Broly act like a shithead and charged at Vegeta when he was told to. And movie already tells us that Broly is the kind of person who listens to his father, whether he's morally right or not. Broly knew deep down that senslessly attacking Vegeta wasn't the right thing to do, but he did it anyway.
True. It's why I think he would so some mercy. I think seeing another Saiyan being exploited by Frieza like he himself was would make something snap in Vegeta. Or at the very least, it would elicit sympathy. The easiest, most natural experience of sympathy is seeing a situation you have an intimate experience with happen to someone else. It's why a former alchoholic or drug addict might be moved to help others they see dealing with alcoholism or drug addiction. That same person may not have cultivated sympathy for other issues such as LGBTQ, treatment of Veterans, etc. because they've never dealt with it before or had anyone they knew dealing with it because it takes a few extra mental/emotional steps for that kind of sympathy. The situation with Broly and Paragus, would seemingly create the much more natural form of sympathy for Vegeta. They are fellow Saiyans displaced in the universe thanks to Frieza, working for him under the guise of a lie (not knowing he blew up Vegeta), are cutthroats (Vegeta assumes) because its all they've ever known, and the last remaining members of their lost race in U7. All of this applied to Vegeta too at some point. Why wouldn't he have the most natural form of sympathy for these two in this case, especially Broly?

Just remember, I'm not asking for the situation to turn out all sunshine and rainbows, I acknowledge everything you said about Broly and Paragus, I just wanted Vegeta to show he gave a sh**, maybe even some pity. He flaps his gums about Saiyan this, Saiyan that, but really he should just say my genetics this and my genetics that because he doesn't give a damn about Saiyans.
Here's the thing: Neither Broly wasn't being exploited explicitly by Freeza. He was being controlled by by his father. Yes, Freeza acted later as a catalyst for Broly to attain a higher power through manufacturing emotional stress for Broly to become a SSJ. But ensuring that Broly was completely subservient to certain commands? That was 100% Paragus. And that's what kick-starts the final 1/3 of the narrative for the movie. The most Freeza did was give Paragus a platform to exact revenge, something that was already established as what Paragus wanted.

I understand what angle you're coming from. But the onus is more on Broly to give Vegeta come context as why he has to fight him considering it's Broly that initiates the confrontation and not the other way around. Context needs to be given. Vegeta can't just latch onto something if he's given no incentive to do so. Broly charged at Vegeta for no reason, and from Vegeta's point of view, Broly was looking for a fight. And Vegeta gave it to him.
That's an interesting way to look at it, I must admit. But even so, I think the surviving members of his own race, with ties to his father, and in a similar subservient situation with the tyrant that murdered their entire race would initiate the utmost sentimental value, second only to his family. At the very least, he would do something to preserve that. I can't buy that he'd be this disengaged and uninterested.
Vegeta is WAY past giving a shit about his family and the archaic race of the his era. He burned that bridge back on Namek. Unless, there is a damn good reason given to him, which so far there hasn't been, there's no reason why he should starting care for a race of shitheads in his universe, and when he given more attention to a race of genuinely good people in another.
To a degree, I think he would, simply by the virtue of being an ultra rare survivor of Vegeta's extinct race. I'm not even saying it would give a lot of stock in Vegeta's eyes, but you'd think at least enough to try to explain the truth of things to him, why he doesn't need to be working for Frieza, why they should be working together instead, etc.
Being a ultra rare survivor of near extinct race is one thing, and being and uncontrollable, feral bastard is another. Broly is indeed a unique specimen. But the movie makes it very clear that when he starts throwing fisticuffs, he's an immense wildcard, who's mentally unstable and has a seemingly bottomless amount of Ki that he feels the needs to exert on anything that moves. He was too dangerous to kept alive (at that point) to be kept alive.
I agree, but my problem isn't with Broly. It's with the guy with the power and knowledge to change the situation if he was so inclined. He didn't even try.
The problem does lie with Broly. Broly starts the fight. Broly has the wherewithal to know that always following his fathers orders is the right thing to do. Broly continues to fight even though Goku restrains him and tries to reason with him. Hell, if there was ever a moment Broly could explained himself, it was there. But he doesn't.
I'm just here a bit earlier than you. I can see the writing on the wall. To me, his treatment of surviving U7 Saiyans shows me he hasn't grown much as a character (in-universe). This discussion has helped me see that he still views non-family Saiyans through the lens of trash vs. useful to him, just as he did when he casually tossed Nappa in the air and blew him to smithereens. Otherwise, its just inconsistent--and even worse--shallow writing.
The main issue with the remaining U7 Saiyans is that they present themselves as shitheads, making it quite difficult for them to receive sympathy in the first place. Paragus is portrayed as ruthless, while still willing to risk the well being of his only son the last of his kind in desperate attempt at revenge, even if it's proxy.

And Broly is basically Tarzan, but with far more strength to throw around and somehow more feral, making him an unpredictable element in combat. That's not even taking into consideration once he starts fighting, he never stops, even if it's in scenario where people try to reel him in and calm him down.

There isn't much sympathy you can throw to those guys, at least from an in-universe perspective, from their demeanor in crucial parts of the story.
Plenty. He can see that Broly and Paragus are serving Frieza or at the very least, allied with him. He could start by asking why they would serve the guy who blew up all their people and home planet. Broly would probably say nothing, but Paragus might say that he doesn't care either way because of his grudge, he explains to Vegeta that he has to die because of the crimes of his father. Knowing Vegeta, he'd likely say something like "I don't give a damn about my father, he is dead like the rest." He'd probably make a comment on how foolish it is for Saiyans to serve someone like Frieza. Paragus wouldn't care and would sick Broly on Vegeta anyway. They'd start the fight, Broly powers up after fighting a bit and makes Vegeta go SSJ. At this point in the movie, Vegeta had the upper-hand for a bit, but I feel here he would explain that this is what Frieza feared and why he killed everyone. If Paragus knows of the legend, there's probably a 50-50 shot this shocks him into caring about Frieza's heinous crimes and believing that Vegeta is at least telling the truth about that. From there Vegeta can just explain that he is not his father and that he would not have been so petty and jealous to exile someone as talented as Broly. As a matter of fact, he marvels that a Saiyan other than himself could get this strong, which coming from a legendary SSJ like Vegeta, might give Paragus some pride. He could even strike the nail into the coffin by saying that what Frieza really feared was the existence of a Saiyan like Broly and if Broly remained on Vegeta, he would have been wiped out before he could reach the potential that he has today and beyond.

My problem, is that Vegeta tried none of those simple, base level methods of explaining himself. He just didn't care. I really don't want to put this on him as a character. I honestly don't think they thought too hard about his own complex motivations when writing this movie.
Paragus stopped caring about the rest of the Saiyans after the stunt King Vegeta pulled with his son. He makes that very early in the movie where flat out states that he doesn't believe in the idea of a trustworthy Saiyan and doesn't skip a beat when it comes to murdering his own people to survive. If the truth had been made clear to him that Freeza murdered his race out of fear for their potential, he wouldn't have cared. He was very singled minded on revenge against King Vegeta.

I mean, if Paragus swore revenge against King Vegeta, he was practically waging war against the entire Saiyan race, considering King Vegeta ruled over them all.
I don't necessarily think so. Let's say you and me are in a similar situation with a tiny little kid who thinks we ... I guess, took his goldfish. We are the last of the, IDK, lizard people, and this tiny kid wants to kill us and he has a rock. The problem for him is we are 250 pounds of all muscle and we are well versed in self defense. We see that the kid wants to kill us, but the thing is we can see ourselves in the kid, his rage, his bloodlust, but we know he can be a great warrior in his own right if he is shown a better way. We didn't take his goldfish btw, so Do we, A.) Fight him wordlessly, simply amusing ourselves in the process. B.) Kill him right away, because damn, he has a rock. C.) Try to explain ourselves to him while avoiding his attacks, because as we see it, he's not really a threat to us as long as we aren't 100% defenseless.

I thought of a few more branches of this scenario and I'm sure you will too, but that just proves that out of all the possible choices, Vegeta chose the laziest one. At the start of the fight, Broly was nothing more than a child to Vegeta, and physically so was Paragus. They weren't a credible enough threat for Vegeta to take seriously. He had the time and opportunity to try to explain things to him to stop the pointless fight.
There are a few issues with your analogy:
1. Broly is not portrayed as a child in combat. Like... at all. When Vegeta fights Broly, their evenly matched, and with every time Vegeta get's stronger, Broly matches him. Hell, Vegeta even comments that Broly was learning while he fights.
2. The story makes it very clear the one seeking revenge is solely focused on that.
3. The instrument used for revenge is very capable of expression, but chooses not to when offered the opportunity in combat.

You make some fine points, but the crux of the issue is that the film makes it very clear that Broly knows the decisions he making and is fully committed to them. He has man-child like tendencies, but know he's being used, it's pointed to him how his father is a jerk, but Broly respects and loves his Paragus too much to defy him. Broly goes through with whatever his father says even though it's heavily implied Broly doesn't even like to fight. Broly never once asked his father why he had to fight King Vegeta's son, and that is something very important to taking into consideration. Broly doesn't care about his well-being, so as long as he satisfies his father. It's quite tragic when you think about it.

The moment that Paragus was informed that King Vegeta was dead and his son was alive, that could have been the moment that Paragus could have dropped the bad blood and moved on. But he didn't. Making Paragus' thirst for revenge all the more petty. The does this deliberately to make Paragus less sympathetic.

Fights that happen with no pretense, does develop into into soft spoken conversion about why the instigator is engaging in fisticuffs. It ends (usually) with punches being thrown until one person in one the floor. I appreciate you optimism, but in this case you can't expect Vegeta to react to a mad dog being let off his leash running towards with him teeth showing and the intent to do harm, and expect the reaction from Vegeta to be for him try and pet the dog. That never happen in Dragon Ball or real life.

You throw a punch at someone for no reason, expect them to take you down.
Yes, I agree. Even if Vegeta tried to explain himself, there's a good chance it might fail, but it doesn't change the fact that he didn't try.
And that doesn't change the fact that Vegeta had no incentive to try in the place.
It's a remote planet not involved in the planet trade or any other planet politically. It's existence has very little bearing on what happens with the politics of the universe, well, when Frieza isn't going out of his way to try to kill Goku anyway. If Goku hadn't come to Earth, basically no one in the universe would care about it. Even King Cold and Jaco refer to it as a dump.
Babidi cared about Earth.
He should've yelled "Wait!" really loudly and asked for an opportunity to tie his shoe :lol: . Sometimes people give you that time. In all seriousness, I'll give you that. Mostly because I don't feel like looking for that scene to see how accurate that is. But ultimately, just because a fight starts doesn't mean it can't be stopped before it intensifies.
I won't lie, if that happened, I would have laughed. :P
Yeah it can. I think Vegeta had all the tools of truth to at least make Paragus doubt his crusade. I'm with you when you say it still might not have worked, but I think he had a good shot at convincing him why they shouldn't be enemies.
It really can't. That's half a lifetime to consider continuing revenge and Paragus still jumped at the opportunity when it presented itself. That's pure dedication.
It was also revenge against a whole other person. As long as Vegeta can convince him that he has no connection to his father or his decisions, that might be enough. You never know. The amount of time means little, because Broly and Paragus lived with the suffering of King Vegeta's decision every day of their lives. Just living day to day was a reminder of what that bastard did to them, but again, it wasn't Vegeta who did any of that and he has a decent shot at convincing him of this. He didn't try.
That's really the whole point of Paragus characterization: his anger, bitterness and hostility run so deep he's willing to take it on people that are related the person he's after, even if they have no idea what happened. Paragus is beyond the point of reasoning. He must interested in heads rolling.
I don't think this factors into the discussion we're having. This is more a circumstance of the situation they were in and his love for his son. Realistically, there probably weren't enough resources for the 3 of them to survive if Beet remained alive. To me it shows he has ruthless pragmatism, but quite a lot of care for his son's survival.
That moment is important to take into consideration for how you view Paragus as a person. Given Beet stuck his neck out to help Paragus, and Paragus murders him in cold blood to save supplies... only for Broly and Paragus to survive on that planet for decades.
I have to look into this more. I'm not sure why, but I have a mixed sense of this. Is there a discrepency between the anime portrayal of Vegeta and the manga portrayal? I believe what you're saying is correct, but I also believe there's been instances of him expressing sadness or regret as to the destruction of planet Vegeta.
No. Vegeta never express sadness or regress at the destruction of Planet Vegeta. His regret is the fact that HE couldn't kill Freeza. And HE wasn't the legendary Super Saiyan. Andit out of nothing but pride just wanted Goku to do it.
You mean, did, right? I think the anime may have added some lines here, but I do remember Vegeta crying about how Frieza wiped out their entire race. It's a bit ambiguous. I can't remember the lines from the manga, but I remember it being a little less emotional.
Vegeta crying was because he realised, while fighting Final Form Freeza, that he simply didn't have the strength to match him, despite what he had gone through to get stronger. Vegeta earnestly believed it was him that would become a Super Saiyan. And when his delusions of grandeur were destroyed by Freeza's overwhelming power, he lost the will the fight (the narration in the anime and manga literally say that), and just broke down in tears.
This does, but there's also character development, so I thought he grew to care more about his people the closer we got to his death on Namek. I assumed all that stuff with killing Nappa was Saiyan battle culture that Vegeta had outgrew, but I suppose that was a bad assumption since Nappa had no idea it was coming.
Part of Vegeta's character development was him realising he genuinely cared for the people who gave a shit about him (Trunks and Bulma). Vegeta's empathy only grows beyond that, but it doesn't extend to those with proper reason. It's difficult for Vegeta to give a shit about Broly when his first impression of Broly is attacking him.
Yeah I can't complain too much. I wouldn't have even cared as much if the form didn't look so tacky and thrown-together, or maybe if he didn't get that pride powerup just before.
What can you do? Young Japanese boy eat this shit for breakfast :P .

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Re: Characters who were wasted in the TOP (potential wise)

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:24 am

Lord Beerus wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:10 pm
BWri wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:31 am
Essentially, yes. If he can avoid a senseless conflict by using his words, I think he would. Vegeta has shown that he has enough wisdom these days to do this.
That would be very OOC for Vegeta. Especially if it's against someone who he doesn't have any previous beef with and just attack with no justification. I mean, as empathetic as Vegeta has become, if the situation prevents a good fight for him, he will make the make the most of it.
He tried to be diplomatic and avoid a fight with Beerus.
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Re: Characters who were wasted in the TOP (potential wise)

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:51 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:24 am
Lord Beerus wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:10 pm
BWri wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:31 am
Essentially, yes. If he can avoid a senseless conflict by using his words, I think he would. Vegeta has shown that he has enough wisdom these days to do this.
That would be very OOC for Vegeta. Especially if it's against someone who he doesn't have any previous beef with and just attack with no justification. I mean, as empathetic as Vegeta has become, if the situation prevents a good fight for him, he will make the make the most of it.
He tried to be diplomatic and avoid a fight with Beerus.
Vegeta already had a previous, and quite personal, experience with Beerus and already knew beforehand that Beerus was NOT the person to fuck around with.

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Re: Characters who were wasted in the TOP (potential wise)

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:39 am

Seriously, this arc went overboard with characters. I don’t feel like any potential was wasted but rather the opposite.

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Re: Characters who were wasted in the TOP (potential wise)

Post by louisascommie » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:25 am

The people of yardrat apparently had so many techniques goku wanted go learn.

Should have shown them

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