Zamasu is my least favourite DB villain. Here is an explanation why.

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Zamasu is my least favourite DB villain. Here is an explanation why.

Post by DragonBallFoodie » Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:27 am

The general traits of DB villains are that they are generally at a higher level of power than the hero, and are very smug about their unstoppable battle prowess. They also don’t really have a great deal of depth, unless they survive past their debut arc, then they have time to evolve and to show some depth and some possibility of redemption (eg Tien, Piccolo, Vegeta, the Androids).

(While Frieza entered an alliance with the Z-Fighters for the Tournament of Power, though he didn’t change much; but then he’s pretty much an all-round jerk so redemption will always be distant from him, and may never come to him.)

Zamasu is one of the few villains – or maybe the only villain - who believe he has a valid and noble purpose in what he is doing; he wants to purify the world and make it a paradise for gods and angels. That makes him stand out in the DB rogues gallery, I guess, since most of those guys just want to rampage around to their heart’s content. But I think it also alienates him somewhat; he’s acting like a cultured villain in a story of immature (for lack of a better word) superpowered beings. It’s an awkward fit for DB, and I don’t think it works out well.


The above reason would be the only unbiased and serious reason I have. I have other reasons, which are maybe fair but more personal:
- He was too powerful, even for DB’s standards. This guy killed everyone, all the gods and his fellow angels? And he materializes powers out of nowhere. And even defeated he still uses his body to wipe out the world? That’s going too far.

- If he turns the whole world into himself – a fascist and conformist goal in itself – won’t a clone of his eventually become individual and do its own thing against what everyone thinks? His plan doesn’t seem to take that into account.

- He ruined things for Future Trunks by killing Future Bulma, and everyone else except Mai. Future Trunks has suffered more than any DB character has, or should.


That’s all I have. I am interested in hearing your statements.
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Re: Zamasu is my least favourite DB villain. Here is an explanation why.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:18 am

That's fine. The reason why you hate him is the reason why I love him. The "Fallen God" archetype is my favourite, so that's why Zamasu is my absolute favourite character in Dragon Ball. I actually agree with him, clearly the current Gods are weak and incompetent. Beerus and Champa destroy for petty reasons and would rather hold tournaments in their names than do their job, the Angels are selfish (the Grand Priest didn't give a shit about trillions of innocents being erased), and the multiverse is ruled by an authoritarian child who once erased six universes because he was bored. Plus obviously there are the Kais who cowardly let evil exist because their laws bind them to inaction. Say what you will about Zamasu, but at least he didn't commit genocide for silly reasons like Beerus and Zeno. Also, in a world where Cell or Boo won, everyone would be dead and the world would be burned to ashes. But in a world where Zamasu won? We could see a beautiful and peaceful utopia inhabited by perfect mortals who live in harmony so long as they worship their Supreme God. And, to be clear, just because I agree with Zamasu's ideals doesn't mean that I agree with his methods.

Perhaps what I love the most about Zamasu is how careful and methodical he was. His plan was flawless, he truly didn't take any chances, and this also shows that he sort of respected the threat that his opponents represented:

- He stole Goku's body because it would make for the perfect vessel to carry out the Project Zero Mortals;
- He travelled to a timeline where Beerus was dead so that his plans wouldn't be stopped;
- He killed all the other Gods to make sure that they wouldn't meddle with his plans;
- He recruited an immortal partner to serve as his shield;
- He destroyed the Super Dragon Balls to make sure that no one would use them against him;
- He destroyed the Time Machine before being sucked back to the future to slow down his enemies and buy time for himself.

He truly was a great strategist. In the end, he was able to emerge victorious and annihilate his enemies, and it took a literal deus-ex machina to finally put an end to him. Sure he made miscalculations along the way, such as underestimating Vegeta's pride or fusing too soon, but I commend him for his well-thought and perfect plan.
- He was too powerful, even for DB’s standards. This guy killed everyone, all the gods and his fellow angels? And he materializes powers out of nowhere. And even defeated he still uses his body to wipe out the world? That’s going too far.
He was indeed powerful. Zamasu was a mere Kai apprentice yet he was revered as a genius and a fighting prodigy and his powers were unprecedented even amongst fully-fledged Supreme Kais! When he was just an apprentice, he was much stronger than Supreme Kai Shin, and Goku even stated that he if he kept training he could become as strong as Beerus. Once he switched body with Goku, he gained an even stronger body, and retained his genius, making for quite a formidable foe. Zamasu's mistake was his fear and arrogance. Black overreacted and fused with Zamasu even though he didn't actually need to fuse to win. Fused Zamasu toyed with his enemies instead of just killing them right off the bat.

He killed all the other Gods and fellow Angels because their lives were linked to the Supreme Kais who were easily killed by Zamasu.

As for your last point, of course even without a body Zamasu would be a terrifying enemy. He was given immortality by the most powerful artifacts in the cosmos, what do you expect?
- If he turns the whole world into himself – a fascist and conformist goal in itself – won’t a clone of his eventually become individual and do its own thing against what everyone thinks? His plan doesn’t seem to take that into account.
What do you mean?
He ruined things for Future Trunks by killing Future Bulma, and everyone else except Mai. Future Trunks has suffered more than any DB character has, or should.
I loved that ending. People need to understand that not everyone has an happy ending. Just because you give your best and sacrifice everything, doesn't mean that you will win. Life is cruel and harsh, sometimes you lose. Zamasu was ultimately defeated, but like a true God, he brought everyone down along with him. He had the last laugh, as Trunks and Mai are now refugees in another timeline, and will forever be tormented by the shame of failing to protect their loved ones.
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Re: Zamasu is my least favourite DB villain. Here is an explanation why.

Post by dragon boss z » Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:58 am

The reason you don’t like him is because is doesn’t stand out? That’s strange, unless you want dragon ball to be the same repetitive story every arc. And he wasn’t too strong, except for when he fused with the universe. He didn’t kill and GoD or angel, he killed the weak supreme Kais, which killed the GoD they were connected to, which in turn made their angel fall asleep. Zamasu does have some problems though, like him wanting Goku’s body even though their are other characters who were stronger than him, or not just wishing himself to be the strongest in the multiverse with the super dragon balls. Plus his goal doesn’t make sense. Why destroy everything with violence because you hate violent mortals? It would have made more sense for him to peacefully erase mortals from existence with the super dragon balls.

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Re: Zamasu is my least favourite DB villain. Here is an explanation why.

Post by Tai Lung » Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:02 pm

DragonBallFoodie wrote:The general traits of DB villains are that they are generally at a higher level of power than the hero, and are very smug about their unstoppable battle prowess. They also don’t really have a great deal of depth, unless they survive past their debut arc, then they have time to evolve and to show some depth and some possibility of redemption (eg Tien, Piccolo, Vegeta, the Androids).

(While Frieza entered an alliance with the Z-Fighters for the Tournament of Power, though he didn’t change much; but then he’s pretty much an all-round jerk so redemption will always be distant from him, and may never come to him.)

Zamasu is one of the few villains – or maybe the only villain - who believe he has a valid and noble purpose in what he is doing; he wants to purify the world and make it a paradise for gods and angels. That makes him stand out in the DB rogues gallery, I guess, since most of those guys just want to rampage around to their heart’s content. But I think it also alienates him somewhat; he’s acting like a cultured villain in a story of immature (for lack of a better word) superpowered beings. It’s an awkward fit for DB, and I don’t think it works out well.


The above reason would be the only unbiased and serious reason I have. I have other reasons, which are maybe fair but more personal:
- He was too powerful, even for DB’s standards. This guy killed everyone, all the gods and his fellow angels? And he materializes powers out of nowhere. And even defeated he still uses his body to wipe out the world? That’s going too far.

- If he turns the whole world into himself – a fascist and conformist goal in itself – won’t a clone of his eventually become individual and do its own thing against what everyone thinks? His plan doesn’t seem to take that into account.

- He ruined things for Future Trunks by killing Future Bulma, and everyone else except Mai. Future Trunks has suffered more than any DB character has, or should.


That’s all I have. I am interested in hearing your statements.
Although everyone has their taste but I think ..
they tried to do something new and get out of the standards by changing the rigid cosmology of DB. literally zamasu is supreme kai that is not happy with the role that has been given and believes that a god should not act a passive position against the sin of mortals for me is a good change that is more interesting than the previous villains have no reason all be equal.

he killed the supreme kai which caused a chain effect since that also kills the gods of death and the angels
the combination of a saiyan body and ki god of a supreme kai allowed him to evolve his own power this + zenkai is not that he took them out of nowhere ..
I did not understand with this of a clone?.
but that the villains ruin the lives of the good ones should not be something wrong.

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Re: Zamasu is my least favourite DB villain. Here is an explanation why.

Post by Lord Frieza » Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:28 pm

It's not thats he over powered per say, at least not till he becomes infinite, it's more that while he's actually very smart. He beats all the gods not by being stronger, but by exploiting a weakness that exists to keep the GoD in line, He's effectively uses both time travel and the super dragon balls to achieve his goals and in the case of Black actively works to improve his power and abilities on top of his broken potential. He's the only villain in the franchise to use all of the tricks that have allowed the heroes to come out on top against them. Yet the story never makes him out to be a flawless geniuses as he ends up losing due to oversights and his own ego. This combined with his motives and beliefs make him very intreasting to me.

Their also the fact that their are 4 versions of the character in the same story, all with intreasting takes on his development.

As for the ending of the arc, it's easily the best we've had in a very long time despite how bitter it is. One of Dragon Ball's flaws, almost from it's very beginning, is that their is very little consiquence to the villains actions. They do tones of horrible things and more often then not it all gets undone by the end of the arc. The fact that for once the heroes are in a literal no win situation is beyond refreshing. Zamasu had pretty much robbed them of all but the nuclear option and even though the heroes beat him, they lost everything they were trying save. Its was the first time in what feels like forever that dragon ball was able to genuinely surprise me.

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Re: Zamasu is my least favourite DB villain. Here is an explanation why.

Post by Hulk10 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:44 pm

I personally like the idea that things can be undone with the dragon balls. I don't need reminders that there can't be a happy ending for everyone. I really was dissatisfied with the ending of the Zamasu arc. I understand that others feel differently but I get really annoyed when people say that villain actions don't have consequences. They do. Just because the actions get undone doesn't mean that people aren't unaffected by it especially if they remember it. This is a problem I have with the transformers movie franchise as well. The fights and actions have consequences you just need to think in less obvious terms. Also lets not forget that in Future Trunks's timeline nothing changed when he first went back into the past and nothing changed about his present. He avenged the people who died but was unable to bring them back.

Also death by disease and old age you can't bring them back with normal dragon balls so there are consequences, so we can't pretend there aren't. Reviving people doesn't change the fact that they died. Also the people who were killed by Nappa when he arrived on Earth were never brought back.
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Re: Zamasu is my least favourite DB villain. Here is an explanation why.

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:53 pm

I love that, with Zamasu, a sense of seriousness that the series has never had before save for maybe the original Future Trunks special has been introduced. And in DBS, no less, one of the kid-friendliest iterations of the series to date!

We also got an interesting exploration of creative new means of spicing up the usual formula of "fight the strong guy". The fact that there wasn't a clean victory whatsoever was the icing on top of the cake, as we finally got a truly bittersweet ending to a DB story. It's all thanks to the standard formula of "Goku meets the villain and beats him, who then either simply dies or is spared and left to fight Goku again" being turned entirely on its head with Goku creating the villain.

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Re: Zamasu is my least favourite DB villain. Here is an explanation why.

Post by Lord Frieza » Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:45 pm

Hulk10 wrote:I personally like the idea that things can be undone with the dragon balls. I don't need reminders that there can't be a happy ending for everyone. I really was dissatisfied with the ending of the Zamasu arc. I understand that others feel differently but I get really annoyed when people say that villain actions don't have consequences. They do. Just because the actions get undone doesn't mean that people aren't unaffected by it especially if they remember it. This is a problem I have with the transformers movie franchise as well. The fights and actions have consequences you just need to think in less obvious terms. Also lets not forget that in Future Trunks's timeline nothing changed when he first went back into the past and nothing changed about his present. He avenged the people who died but was unable to bring them back.

Also death by disease and old age you can't bring them back with normal dragon balls so there are consequences, so we can't pretend there aren't. Reviving people doesn't change the fact that they died. Also the people who were killed by Nappa when he arrived on Earth were never brought back.
Thats fair but let me make my point a little clearer.

I enjoy shows that always have the hero come out on top, I watch 70's super robot shows and they are the prime of that. Also I understand perfectly that just because the physical ramifications of evil deeds can be undone doesn't mean they never happened or don't effect people. The problem I have is not in the stories universe but with the stores narrative. As a reader whats my incentive to keep reading, why should I care about some new villain when everything he/she/it dose gets undone with wish for the 8th time in a row? Sure I love the series and find it fun, I even thing it's deeper then most give it credit for, but if we keep hitting the same check points again and again I'll get bored after a while. This kind of bitter turn I feel is good because from a narrative stand point I've been following the arc with the full expectation that Zamasu was going to loose and everything would eventually be ok. Instead I know I find myself hoping a notebook didn't get carelessly burned because it's all thats left of a universe that suffered and then got erased.

I'm not saying DB should become Grimm Dark and I enjoy the series as it is. But DB's biggest flaw since Z has been that it keeps getting stuck in certain story beats again and again, which breeds apathy in the reader/watcher. Sometime something different needs to be done to remind me why I should care that theres a new bad guy on the scene and why we need the heroes to try and stop them rather then just wish the bad stuff away.

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Re: Zamasu is my least favourite DB villain. Here is an explanation why.

Post by Hulk10 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:15 pm

Lord Frieza wrote:
Hulk10 wrote:I personally like the idea that things can be undone with the dragon balls. I don't need reminders that there can't be a happy ending for everyone. I really was dissatisfied with the ending of the Zamasu arc. I understand that others feel differently but I get really annoyed when people say that villain actions don't have consequences. They do. Just because the actions get undone doesn't mean that people aren't unaffected by it especially if they remember it. This is a problem I have with the transformers movie franchise as well. The fights and actions have consequences you just need to think in less obvious terms. Also lets not forget that in Future Trunks's timeline nothing changed when he first went back into the past and nothing changed about his present. He avenged the people who died but was unable to bring them back.

Also death by disease and old age you can't bring them back with normal dragon balls so there are consequences, so we can't pretend there aren't. Reviving people doesn't change the fact that they died. Also the people who were killed by Nappa when he arrived on Earth were never brought back.
Thats fair but let me make my point a little clearer.

I enjoy shows that always have the hero come out on top, I watch 70's super robot shows and they are the prime of that. Also I understand perfectly that just because the physical ramifications of evil deeds can be undone doesn't mean they never happened or don't effect people. The problem I have is not in the stories universe but with the stores narrative. As a reader whats my incentive to keep reading, why should I care about some new villain when everything he/she/it dose gets undone with wish for the 8th time in a row? Sure I love the series and find it fun, I even thing it's deeper then most give it credit for, but if we keep hitting the same check points again and again I'll get bored after a while. This kind of bitter turn I feel is good because from a narrative stand point I've been following the arc with the full expectation that Zamasu was going to loose and everything would eventually be ok. Instead I know I find myself hoping a notebook didn't get carelessly burned because it's all thats left of a universe that suffered and then got erased.

I'm not saying DB should become Grimm Dark and I enjoy the series as it is. But DB's biggest flaw since Z has been that it keeps getting stuck in certain story beats again and again, which breeds apathy in the reader/watcher. Sometime something different needs to be done to remind me why I should care that theres a new bad guy on the scene and why we need the heroes to try and stop them rather then just wish the bad stuff away.
You make a good point too.
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Re: Zamasu is my least favourite DB villain. Here is an explanation why.

Post by Lord Frieza » Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:37 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:I love that, with Zamasu, a sense of seriousness that the series has never had before save for maybe the original Future Trunks special has been introduced. And in DBS, no less, one of the kid-friendliest iterations of the series to date!

We also got an interesting exploration of creative new means of spicing up the usual formula of "fight the strong guy". The fact that there wasn't a clean victory whatsoever was the icing on top of the cake, as we finally got a truly bittersweet ending to a DB story. It's all thanks to the standard formula of "Goku meets the villain and beats him, who then either simply dies or is spared and left to fight Goku again" being turned entirely on its head with Goku creating the villain.
This is another aspect I like, and it applies to Trunks also but in a different way.

In Goku's case, especially in the anime, it shows how seemingly harmless deeds can have impacts we would never suspect. It's also one of the rare moments his main character traits are actually seen in a negative light. Normally his innocent ways are just seen as odd and likeable by all but the villains. But here Zamasu is not a bad person, he's just at a mental cross roads in his life, and Goku's charms push him towards the dark path. Thats not so say Goku did anything wrong, he really didn't but just because your he good guy doesn't mean you always do the right thing.

With Trunks we have a very grey question that the series dose look at. It is his fault that the events involving Zamasu ever happened as they did. But was he wrong to try and save another timeline? This is why it's a grey question because there's no right answer. A lot of good and bad happened in both timelines because of him, plus we have no way of knowing how things would have turned out had he not time travelled at all. Much like with Goku, it shows you that you can never truly know what will come as a result of your actions.

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Re: Zamasu is my least favourite DB villain. Here is an explanation why.

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:48 pm

Conversely, I've always held the belief that Zamasu is the best Dragon Ball villain for multiple reasons:

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Re: Zamasu is my least favourite DB villain. Here is an explanation why.

Post by Hulk10 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:18 pm

Lord Frieza wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:I love that, with Zamasu, a sense of seriousness that the series has never had before save for maybe the original Future Trunks special has been introduced. And in DBS, no less, one of the kid-friendliest iterations of the series to date!

We also got an interesting exploration of creative new means of spicing up the usual formula of "fight the strong guy". The fact that there wasn't a clean victory whatsoever was the icing on top of the cake, as we finally got a truly bittersweet ending to a DB story. It's all thanks to the standard formula of "Goku meets the villain and beats him, who then either simply dies or is spared and left to fight Goku again" being turned entirely on its head with Goku creating the villain.
This is another aspect I like, and it applies to Trunks also but in a different way.

In Goku's case, especially in the anime, it shows how seemingly harmless deeds can have impacts we would never suspect. It's also one of the rare moments his main character traits are actually seen in a negative light. Normally his innocent ways are just seen as odd and likeable by all but the villains. But here Zamasu is not a bad person, he's just at a mental cross roads in his life, and Goku's charms push him towards the dark path. Thats not so say Goku did anything wrong, he really didn't but just because your he good guy doesn't mean you always do the right thing.

With Trunks we have a very grey question that the series dose look at. It is his fault that the events involving Zamasu ever happened as they did. But was he wrong to try and save another timeline? This is why it's a grey question because there's no right answer. A lot of good and bad happened in both timelines because of him, plus we have no way of knowing how things would have turned out had he not time travelled at all. Much like with Goku, it shows you that you can never truly know what will come as a result of your actions.
There also conversely no wrong answer. But honestly Future Trunks is not at fault for Zamasu's actions. No one but Zamasu is to blame for his actions.
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Re: Zamasu is my least favourite DB villain. Here is an explanation why.

Post by Lord Frieza » Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:35 pm

Hulk10 wrote:
Lord Frieza wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:I love that, with Zamasu, a sense of seriousness that the series has never had before save for maybe the original Future Trunks special has been introduced. And in DBS, no less, one of the kid-friendliest iterations of the series to date!

We also got an interesting exploration of creative new means of spicing up the usual formula of "fight the strong guy". The fact that there wasn't a clean victory whatsoever was the icing on top of the cake, as we finally got a truly bittersweet ending to a DB story. It's all thanks to the standard formula of "Goku meets the villain and beats him, who then either simply dies or is spared and left to fight Goku again" being turned entirely on its head with Goku creating the villain.
This is another aspect I like, and it applies to Trunks also but in a different way.

In Goku's case, especially in the anime, it shows how seemingly harmless deeds can have impacts we would never suspect. It's also one of the rare moments his main character traits are actually seen in a negative light. Normally his innocent ways are just seen as odd and likeable by all but the villains. But here Zamasu is not a bad person, he's just at a mental cross roads in his life, and Goku's charms push him towards the dark path. Thats not so say Goku did anything wrong, he really didn't but just because your he good guy doesn't mean you always do the right thing.

With Trunks we have a very grey question that the series dose look at. It is his fault that the events involving Zamasu ever happened as they did. But was he wrong to try and save another timeline? This is why it's a grey question because there's no right answer. A lot of good and bad happened in both timelines because of him, plus we have no way of knowing how things would have turned out had he not time travelled at all. Much like with Goku, it shows you that you can never truly know what will come as a result of your actions.
There also conversely no wrong answer. But honestly Future Trunks is not at fault for Zamasu's actions. No one but Zamasu is to blame for his actions.
Right or Wrong, dose it matter what word we use if the outcome is the same? What we do can have good and bad outcomes we cannot forsee.

On the subject of Trunks, let me restate "It is his fault that the events involving Zamasu ever happened as they did". What Zamasu did or didn't do is on his own greed head. We can see in Trunks's time his opinion likely didn't improve much even though he never met Goku as he jumped at the chance to join Black. But one can easily argue that had Trunks never saved Goku, Zamasu would never have become Black or the odds of him getting immortality are much slimier thanks to his knowledge of universe 7 likely being nil befor he took intreast in Goku. On his own Zamasu is far less of a threat. Trunks actions made Zamasu's turn to darkness happen much sooner at the very least and gave him the tools he'd eventually use to insure Trunks's reality was erased.

Trunks is not reasonable for Zamasu, but the events he set in motion the day he leap through time lead to a far worse outcome in regards to him. He could never have known and a lot of good came from his choice, but behind that greater good a brewing darkness also became greater.
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Re: Zamasu is my least favourite DB villain. Here is an explanation why.

Post by sunsetshimmer » Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:39 pm

He is my least favourite villain as well. Especially Goku Black was bad. If arc was only about Zamasu it would be much better, entire Goku Black thing (that was NEVER a mystery) ruined entire arc. Zamasu overall was kinda boring villain and his actions always kinda reminded me of Baby, even though Baby is my favourite villain, yet Zamasu is least favourite somehow. Why you ask if i consider them to be similar?

Perhaps because Zamasu's existence as villain (and especially as Goku Black) was asspull and his motivation made no sense. He was just narcissistic apprentice who didn't trust anyone but himself and was killing innocent people. Well yeah, most villains do. But others, even Baby, never tried to tell people that they are NOT evil. Zamasu believed he is doing something good and was trying to convince everyone that "hey i'm just killing you because i'm good and you are mortal so you are evil, bye". Baby was always saying he wants a revenge, but he never tried to make it look like he is innocent. He made it clear that he wants to rule universe to prevent other races from turning against him. Zamasu didn't really even have a reason to kill anyone to begin with. No one has harmed him and he had no right to kill anyone. So we have a guy who deserved a revenge, but doesn't pretend to be good and a guy who had no reason to hurt anyone, but kills people pretending to be good.

Another big reason is how fanservice and lazy Goku Black is compared to Baby Vegeta who was similar concept. Baby chosing Vegeta as his host made sense, it wasn't just another "Goku vs Vegeta" fight as some people try to say, everything made sense here. Best revenge on guy who killed your race but is now dead? Take revenge on his son. Hey, even Paragus did that, right? Parasite with Tuffle king genes enslaves Saiyan prince (technically a king) making him a double king + he has original design. Good or not, it's at least original and not just Evil Goku thing from fanfics (Goku in black outfit and red hair was a fan thing since forever). Now, what about Goku Black? He chose Goku, because Goku defeated him. End of story. It's that simple. If it was Vegeta, we would have Vegeta Black. Would we ever have Baby Goku? No.

If there is one positive thing i can say about Zamasu it's that we got some villain related to gods even though we already got Beerus before who was way above him in hierarchy. But it at least fits DBS, unlike Broly movie.
I also kinda liked how Fused Zamasu was portrayed in manga. He looked sinister. I wish he looked like this without fusing with evil Goku.
His anime version was awful though.
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Re: Zamasu is my least favourite DB villain. Here is an explanation why.

Post by Lord Frieza » Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:11 pm

sunsetshimmer wrote: Perhaps because Zamasu's existence as villain (and especially as Goku Black) was asspull and his motivation made no sense. He was just narcissistic apprentice who didn't trust anyone but himself and was killing innocent people. Well yeah, most villains do. But others, even Baby, never tried to tell people that they are NOT evil. Zamasu believed he is doing something good and was trying to convince everyone that "hey i'm just killing you because i'm good and you are mortal so you are evil, bye". Baby was always saying he wants a revenge, but he never tried to make it look like he is innocent. He made it clear that he wants to rule universe to prevent other races from turning against him. Zamasu didn't really even have a reason to kill anyone to begin with. No one has harmed him and he had no right to kill anyone. So we have a guy who deserved a revenge, but doesn't pretend to be good and a guy who had no reason to hurt anyone, but kills people pretending to be good.
On this subject I will say you don't seem to take irrational fear, entitlement or bigotry into account.

The Nazies never thought they were doing anything wrong when they butchered my people, the Romani, as we were a lesser race so it was their right to do so. We were only filthy, thieving vermin after all, barely human. Hell they were doing the world a favour. While fictionalised, their are people in the world like Zamasu. People who genially hate and despise others for no reason then they are different. No real provocation or rational reason needed. Hell the British Empire's foreign policy could be summed up as "If you saw someone in a skirt you shot him and nicked his country".

Thats why I don't find Zamasu's mindset so baffling, as reality has shown this kind of thinking to be very real.
Last edited by Lord Frieza on Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:31 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: Zamasu is my least favourite DB villain. Here is an explanation why.

Post by Hulk10 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:13 pm

Lord Frieza wrote:
Hulk10 wrote:
Lord Frieza wrote:
This is another aspect I like, and it applies to Trunks also but in a different way.

In Goku's case, especially in the anime, it shows how seemingly harmless deeds can have impacts we would never suspect. It's also one of the rare moments his main character traits are actually seen in a negative light. Normally his innocent ways are just seen as odd and likeable by all but the villains. But here Zamasu is not a bad person, he's just at a mental cross roads in his life, and Goku's charms push him towards the dark path. Thats not so say Goku did anything wrong, he really didn't but just because your he good guy doesn't mean you always do the right thing.

With Trunks we have a very grey question that the series dose look at. It is his fault that the events involving Zamasu ever happened as they did. But was he wrong to try and save another timeline? This is why it's a grey question because there's no right answer. A lot of good and bad happened in both timelines because of him, plus we have no way of knowing how things would have turned out had he not time travelled at all. Much like with Goku, it shows you that you can never truly know what will come as a result of your actions.
There also conversely no wrong answer. But honestly Future Trunks is not at fault for Zamasu's actions. No one but Zamasu is to blame for his actions.
Right or Wrong, dose it matter what word we use if the outcome is the same? What we do can have good and bad outcomes we cannot forsee.

On the subject of Trunks, let me restate "It is his fault that the events involving Zamasu ever happened as they did". What Zamasu did or didn't do is on his own greed head. We can see in Trunks's time his opinion likely didn't improve much even though he never met Goku as he jumped at the chance to join Black. But one can easily argue that had Trunks never saved Goku, Zamasu would never have become Black or the odds of him getting immortality are much slimier thanks to his knowledge of universe 7 likely being nil befor he took intreast in Goku. On his own Zamasu is far less of a threat. Trunks actions made Zamasu's turn to darkness happen much sooner at the very least and gave him the tools he'd eventually use to insure Trunks's reality was erased.

Trunks is not reasonable for Zamasu, but the events he set in motion the day he leap through time lead to a far worse outcome in regards to him. He could never have known and a lot of good came from his choice, but behind that greater good a brewing darkness also became greater.
One could see it that way. I personally don't blame Trunks.
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Re: Zamasu is my least favourite DB villain. Here is an explanation why.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:24 am

Also I love how Zamasu wasn't evil at the beginning. When he was first shown as an apprentice, he was troubled and doubted mortals, but he was still good, so much so that Gowasu sensed the purity of his heart. A series of unforeseen incidents, such as the fight with Goku or the attack of the Babari, led to Zamasu's doubt becoming fear and then hatred, and so he became evil. Unlike the other villains who are evil from the beginning, Zamasu was once pure and good. After all, he was a Kai, not a Makaioshin, so he was born with a good heart, and he truly did want the best for the universe. Only, he thought that the universe would never be at peace under the grip of those flawed and violent mortals.

The situation IS morally grey, because Trunks ISN'T a good guy. Trunks shattered the very flow of time, as Gowasu said he was a fool. Did he time travel for good intentions? Sure, but Zamasu also committed genocide for good intentions. I often wonder who I should root for, because at the end of the day Zamasu is just doing what the sacred laws of the Gods dictate, that is that Time is the realm of the Gods alone, and the mortals who meddle with time must be purged. But you see, nowadays every God doesn't give a shit about the laws, so when Zamasu tried to uphold them, his fellow Gods, out of cowardice, pointed fingers at him.

I do think that Zamasu wasn't completely evil. At least Future Zamasu. He was not as violent and ruthless as Black, it took Black to kill his master to convince him to act. And in the manga, Future Zamasu even entered into a fight with Black once he realized that he was just a pawn, though the fight was ended quickly by the necessity of fusion. So Future Zamasu was still redeemable in my opinion. But Goku Black? He was not. Gowasu literally offered him the chance to redeem himself, and Black stabbed him in the heart. There was no turning point for Black, but I could have seen Future Zamasu realizing that he was wrong to trust Black's promises of power. When Black killed Gowasu, Zamasu was genuinely shocked for a moment. It doesn't matter if he always wanted to do it himself or proceeded to make an evil grin, he was still shocked and terrified by seeing his master die.

This is also what I love of the Zamases, each of them has their own unique personality. Black and Zamasu are the same person, but that doesn't mean that they have no personality, they are very distinguishable, so much so that they turned on each other at one point in the manga.
Thats why I don't find Zamasu's mindset so baffling, as reality has shown this kind of thinking to be very real.
If anything, Zeno and Beerus are the baffling ones, as they commit genocide because they are bored or don't like the food of those civilizations.
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Re: Zamasu is my least favourite DB villain. Here is an explanation why.

Post by PFM18 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:42 am

Couldn't disagree more. Zamasu is easily a top 3 villain in the franchise for me, but I'm sure anything I would say about him has already been said or is about to be said by SupremeKai25.

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Re: Zamasu is my least favourite DB villain. Here is an explanation why.

Post by Amir » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:19 pm

Wow, the reasons you hate him are what made him great, at least to me.

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Re: Zamasu is my least favourite DB villain. Here is an explanation why.

Post by Skar » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:28 pm

I viewed Zamasu as a parody of the Fallen Angel trope. He seemed like an angsty teenager who was mad at the world and decided to commit mass genocide across the multiverse after encountering one barbaric mortal race and being defeated by Goku, a mortal who surpassed him. I think part of the joke was how quick his descent was and how he rushed to enact his plan.

Was he aware that all the Gods of Destruction were basically the same as Goku and mortals who trained to reach that power? He rushed to switch bodies with Goku without considering if there were mortals out there stronger than him including candidates for the GoD position which DBS proved in later sagas. Imagine if did kill Trunks and then ran into future Broly, Jiren, Toppo, etc. They could easily take out Goku Black and then Zamasu would just have to hope that his immortality could wear them down.

Even if he never encountered a mortal more powerful than Goku, Zamasu was defensiveness against Zeno so his plan was basically kill all the Kaioshin to take out the GoDs and then wipe out all mortals hoping Zeno never finds out. The Universe Survival saga reveals that Zeno or Grand Priest are able to scan an entire universe and give a mortal ranking which means they definitely would've noticed when a universe's ranking dropped down to zero. Without even considering that, Zeno or Grand Priest should at some point notice that all the gods below them are dead and wonder what happened to all of them. Some might say Zamasu won when Zeno wiped out Trunks' timeline but I recall his goal was to only kill mortals and preserve their planets so no one really got what they wanted with this outcome.

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