Zamasu is my least favourite DB villain. Here is an explanation why.

[SupremeKai25]

I viewed Zamasu as a parody of the Fallen Angel trope. He seemed like an angsty teenager who was mad at the world and decided to commit mass genocide across the multiverse after encountering one barbaric mortal race and being defeated by Goku, a mortal who surpassed him. I think part of the joke was how quick his descent was and how he rushed to enact his plan.

Was he aware that all the Gods of Destruction were basically the same as Goku and mortals who trained to reach that power? He rushed to switch bodies with Goku without considering if there were mortals out there stronger than him including candidates for the GoD position which DBS proved in later sagas. Imagine if did kill Trunks and then ran into future Broly, Jiren, Toppo, etc. They could easily take out Goku Black and then Zamasu would just have to hope that his immortality could wear them down.

Even if he never encountered a mortal more powerful than Goku, Zamasu was defensiveness against Zeno so his plan was basically kill all the Kaioshin to take out the GoDs and then wipe out all mortals hoping Zeno never finds out. The Universe Survival saga reveals that Zeno or Grand Priest are able to scan an entire universe and give a mortal ranking which means they definitely would've noticed when a universe's ranking dropped down to zero. Without even considering that, Zeno or Grand Priest should at some point notice that all the gods below them are dead and wonder what happened to all of them. Some might say Zamasu won when Zeno wiped out Trunks' timeline but I recall his goal was to only kill mortals and preserve their planets so no one really got what they wanted with this outcome.

He already witnessed many worlds like Planet Babari, that was just the last straw. The mortal who defeated him, Goku, did so on sacred ground and acted in an extremely disrespectful way towards a God. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that a GOD, a future SUPREME KAI, should be trated with respect, not touched so casually and molested.

Your point about Broly, Jiren, and Toppo is honestly just a plot hole, because Toriyama hadn't yet created those characters when the Zamasu arc aired, and there was still the old evil Broly. Maybe Toppo was already the Destroyer in the future and died when Zamasu killed the Universe 11's Supreme Kai. Maybe Jiren died due to a terrible illness. A lot of things can happen in 20 years. Jiren might be strong but he is still a mortal. Ultimate strength won't help you against a virus.

Zeno and the Grand Priest don't really give a shit about mortals, they were happily erasing trillions of innocent mortal lives to make a point. Maybe the Grand Priest would be angry that Zamasu "killed" his children, but then again as the manga explains Zamasu was doing his best to keep hidden from the King of All, which obviously wasn't easy, but it was possible. The entire Project Zero Mortals took place without Zeno having any clue. I don't even know if there is a Future Grand Priest, as it was literally never even mentioned in either the manga or the anime, so maybe the Grand Priest somehow trascends time itself.

Besides, Zeno is just a naive child, I have no doubt that Zamasu would be able to befriend him should it come to that. Zamasu easily fooled Goku and Gowasu into thinking that he was a good guy, he is cunning and deceitful.

[Skar]

Your point about Broly, Jiren, and Toppo is honestly just a plot hole, because Toriyama hadn't yet created those characters when the Zamasu arc aired, and there was still the old evil Broly. Maybe Toppo was already the Destroyer in the future and died when Zamasu killed the Universe 11's Supreme Kai. Maybe Jiren died due to a terrible illness. A lot of things can happen in 20 years. Jiren might be strong but he is still a mortal. Ultimate strength won't help you against a virus.

My point here was that Zamasu was quick to switch bodies with Goku after being triggered by his power without considering if there are other mortals as powerful or more powerful. Before those later characters were introduced, it was already established in DBS that the GoDs were mortals who trained to become that powerful so that alone means there should be God tier mortals training to become the next GoD of their universe.

Zeno and the Grand Priest don't really give a shit about mortals, they were happily erasing trillions of innocent mortal lives to make a point. Maybe the Grand Priest would be angry that Zamasu "killed" his children, but then again as the manga explains Zamasu was doing his best to keep hidden from the King of All, which obviously wasn't easy, but it was possible. The entire Project Zero Mortals took place without Zeno having any clue. I don't even know if there is a Future Grand Priest, as it was literally never even mentioned in either the manga or the anime, so maybe the Grand Priest somehow trascends time itself.

Besides, Zeno is just a naive child, I have no doubt that Zamasu would be able to befriend him should it come to that. Zamasu easily fooled Goku and Gowasu into thinking that he was a good guy, he is cunning and deceitful.

I don't think Zeno or Grand Priest care much about mortals. Up until then, all we knew about Zeno is that he rules over everything and erased six universes in the past over some minor annoyance. Zeno showed up to the U6 vs U7 tournament which means he occasionally watches over the multiverse so he should eventually notice all the gods are dead. Zamasu's plan relies entirely on Zeno never noticing for the remainder of history and not getting annoyed enough to wipe out several universes like he has done before. It's difficult coming up with an analogue but it's like a kid wanting to kick out all the other students from the playground and somehow gets a bunch of teachers fired so they can't stop him then just hopes the principal, the highest ranking authority at the school, doesn't notice and do something about it.

[Hulk10]

Couldn't disagree more. Zamasu is easily a top 3 villain in the franchise for me, but I'm sure anything I would say about him has already been said or is about to be said by SupremeKai25.

I agree with you there. I personally can't agree with those who view Future Trunks as not being a good guy. Zamasu may have been pure of heart but he always had a questionable sense of justice and a questionable view of what a deity should be and believed that deities were infalliable. But he didn't act on them until he met Goku. Nevertheless those instincts were there, and thus he was not a truly good individual.

If anything Zamasu proves that Gods are NOT wise and all knowing individuals. Its true that the endless cycle of violence gets tiresome but its how mortals function and Zamasu was arrogant, scoffing at the idea that mortals were important and he trumpeted justice, as Beerus said, 'those who trumpet justice are rarely good themselves'. Zamasu reminds me of people who proselytize, who try to force their faith on others and that rubs me the wrong way. Because that is what he is trying to do, force his world view on others.

[SupremeKai25]

My point here was that Zamasu was quick to switch bodies with Goku after being triggered by his power without considering if there are other mortals as powerful or more powerful. Before those later characters were introduced, it was already established in DBS that the GoDs were mortals who trained to become that powerful so that alone means there should be God tier mortals training to become the next GoD of their universe.

You were right when you called him an angsty teenager, that's what he was. He was obsessed in a creepy way with Goku after he was personally defeated by him in combat. Taking the body of another mortal or a God wouldn't suffice to sate his thirst for vengeance. He wanted to personally humiliate Goku by stealing his body, killing him, and using his face to commit gencoide thus tainting his legacy. You could say that Zamasu was "butthurt", though for very good reasons.

And that's another thing I love about him. His creepy obsession with Goku and his desire to have revenge on him. He certainly was a petty Kai, I won't deny that.

I don't think Zeno or Grand Priest care much about mortals. Up until then, all we knew about Zeno is that he rules over everything and erased six universes in the past over some minor annoyance. Zeno showed up to the U6 vs U7 tournament which means he occasionally watches over the multiverse so he should eventually notice all the gods are dead.

Would he truly care that the gods are dead? I mean, did you see him showing any remorse or sadness when he erased the Gods in the Tournament of Power?

Let's say that Fused Zamasu didn't toy with his enemies and just killed them all as soon as he was born. He would then proceed to wash everything away and restore the world to its most pristine state, and then he would use his magical powers as a Kai to nurture new, perfect life forms bound solely to his will. Because in the end that's what Zamasu wanted, to rule over a cosmos where every species serves him and worships him unquestionably. What would Zeno see? He would see an utopian world. So would he really care about what Zamasu did?

You have to remember that Zeno, unlike a school's principal, is a naive little child who can easily be deceived and persuaded. And Zamasu certainly doesn't fall short on cunning. I mean, ugh, if Goku befriended Zeno, Zamasu certainly can. A brute like Goku doesn't even have a fraction of Zamasu's intelligence. Zamasu was just unlucky that Zeno happened to see him for the first time when he had already lost all his sanity.

[supersaiyanZero]

He was a shallow character that wasn't properly developed or explored. The closest we get is him viewing a bunch of dinosaur-men throwing punches at each other and all of a sudden he develops this warped sense of justice. There was no inner conflict, no exploration of what it meant to him that he had a moral responsibility to keep order within the realm and the juxtaposition of his actions...all we got was very weak and generic justification for his actions. It's really freaking sad tbh, because he had so. much. potential. It's still Super's best arc but to be fair that isn't saying much when you zoom out.

[Hulk10]

He was a shallow character that wasn't properly developed or explored. The closest we get is him viewing a bunch of dinosaur-men throwing punches at each other and all of a sudden he develops this warped sense of justice. There was no inner conflict, no exploration of what it meant to him that he had a moral responsibility to keep order within the realm and the juxtaposition of his actions...all we got was very weak and generic justification for his actions. It's really freaking sad tbh, because he had so. much. potential. It's still Super's best arc but to be fair that isn't saying much when you zoom out.

I agree he did have a lot of interesting potential.

[Skar]

You were right when you called him an angsty teenager, that's what he was. He was obsessed in a creepy way with Goku after he was personally defeated by him in combat. Taking the body of another mortal or a God wouldn't suffice to sate his thirst for vengeance. He wanted to personally humiliate Goku by stealing his body, killing him, and using his face to commit gencoide thus tainting his legacy. You could say that Zamasu was "butthurt", though for very good reasons.

And that's another thing I love about him. His creepy obsession with Goku and his desire to have revenge on him. He certainly was a petty Kai, I won't deny that.

I get where you're coming from. I just think it's dumb that Zamasu would jeopardize his entire plan and risk running into a more powerful mortal just because he had a personal and pretty reason for hating Goku. He went to great lengths to kill all the Kaioshin to get the Gods of Destruction so never considered the possibility of there non-GoD mortals even stronger than the one he switched bodies with.

You have to remember that Zeno, unlike a school's principal, is a naive little child who can easily be deceived and persuaded. And Zamasu certainly doesn't fall short on cunning. I mean, ugh, if Goku befriended Zeno, Zamasu certainly can. A brute like Goku doesn't even have a fraction of Zamasu's intelligence. Zamasu was just unlucky that Zeno happened to see him for the first time when he had already lost all his sanity.

I guess to make that a more accurate analogue, the principal in that example would have to be the kind of guy who would be willing to tear down the entire playground if a student got on his bad side. In that case, any student wanting to rebel would have even less chance of success since all his effort could come crashing down in a second once the principal finds out.

It's possible Zeno wouldn't mind Zamasu's version of the multiverse but this would require Zamasu to clear out the planets for however long that takes, never encounter a mortal more powerful than Goku Black, hope Zeno never finds out until Zamasu enacts his plan, and finally hope Zeno doesn't destroy everything once he does learn what's happening. We could come up with theories but I don't think Zamasu ever considered what he would do if Zeno showed up. In a different fictional pantheon, maybe Zamasu would've had more success but the fact that Zeno is a child willing to wipe out everything over any minor annoyance makes it difficult for any God to rebel and last long.

Zamasu reminds me of a rebellious teenager who thinks they have a great idea to fix the world, end pollution, etc but doesn't put much thought into their plan and how unlikely it is to be successful. I just think these are glaring issues with his plan that make it difficult for me to overlook if I'm expected to take him seriously. It's Dragonball so we're not supposed think too much about it but this is a pretty dark saga so it kinda forces the audience to give it more consideration than they would a more light-hearted storyline. Of course, it goes without saying that this is just my opinion. If I view him as more of a parody of this trope, it's easier for me to enjoy the saga because I could assume his plan is meant to be over-the-top and he's so warped and "young" that he doesn't consider that he probably won't be getting very far.

[wolflonnie]

Completely disagree.
First, Zamasu is complex, different from the same old trite villains DB is used to. He has actual motivations and, not just that, personality.
He's not just some tragic puppy like Broly, he's a dude with specific ideas and specific character flaws that leaded him to do what he has done.
A combination of personality and development if you will, which is much more than simply "bad stuff happens to this dude, pity him!".
That's well written for starters.

Second, some incarnations of Zamasu are actually very weak BUT with some reasons to be still dangerous (future Zamasu). That's a new for Dragonball if I'm not mistaken.
I like that future Zamasu is weak, BUT can still wreak havoc because he is immortal and he can heal the much more powerful Goku Black (again, still a Zamasu incarnation) whenever he wants.
Again, good writing: future Zamasu opts for strategy/shenanigans rather than brute force.

Third, he was a very beliavable villain.
He destroyed Future Trunks' timeline, he was about to murder Goku AND Vegeta, forced them to form Vegetto, and, even then, that was insufficient.
Believable, scary villains/antagonists keep viewers/readers hooked in. That's what worked for Jiren as well, in my opinion.

Fourth, the bond between future Zamasu and Goku Black, which is pretty interesting and well thought.
Future Zamasu is an extremist, plagued with an almost obsessive-compulsive disorder, so it's only natural he agrees so much with another version of himself.
It sort of humanizes the character, seeing both of them enjoying a cup of thea together in the calm.

Finally, the design of his three iconic forms.
OG Zamasu is simple, elegant, yet somehow sinister. Goku Black stands out, represents the concept of the beauty the Zamasu character seeks. Fused Zamasu has the presence of a god, an unstoppable force.

Frankly, he's the best DBS villain and one of the best DB villains.
I'd say the best ever would be Frieza, but still, I consider Zamasu a much more complex character than he ever was.

Yeah there are some hiccups with the character (the dinosaur-men scene could've been something different and more complex; showing him actually attacking gods and be a menace, etc.), but overall he was properly developed.

[SupremeKai25]

Also, Zamasu might be evil as he committed genocide, but the other Gods aren't good either. How much war, death, slavery, and suffering could have been avoided had Shin killed Freeza (and he had the power to do so)? How many innocent lives could have been saved? I completely agree with Zamasu when he said:

"Gardens are tended, not just watched. Should a gardener not pluck the weeds? [...] Merely watching... That's a sin too. Don't you see?"

So much so that it's considered evil and selfish to take photos of two guys punching each other on the streets instead of trying to step in and put a stop to their fight. This is what Gowasu, Shin, and the other Gods do. Let evil spread throughout the cosmos without doing anything about it. Blame Zamasu for committing genocide (and let's not act as if Zeno and Beerus were any better), but you cannot blame him for not giving a shit about the cosmos or being too passive.

Notice how in every forums there are several threads which revolve/devolve into a discussion about Zamasu's morality, but I have literally never seen threads like "Was Freeza right?", "Cell did nothing wrong" or "Boo had a point". I will not act like Zamasu is the perfect example of a morally grey character, but he is certainly the most morally ambiguous character in Dragon Ball. Ok, Zamasu killed a lot of people. Beerus does the same thing, and for much less, yet he is a good guy and Zamasu isn't?? Zamasu never committed genocide because he didn't like the food made by a certain species.

[Hulk10]

Also, Zamasu might be evil as he committed genocide, but the other Gods aren't good either. How much war, death, slavery, and suffering could have been avoided had Shin killed Freeza (and he had the power to do so)? How many innocent lives could have been saved? I completely agree with Zamasu when he said:

"Gardens are tended, not just watched. Should a gardener not pluck the weeds? [...] Merely watching... That's a sin too. Don't you see?"

So much so that it's considered evil and selfish to take photos of two guys punching each other on the streets instead of trying to step in and put a stop to their fight. This is what Gowasu, Shin, and the other Gods do. Let evil spread throughout the cosmos without doing anything about it. Blame Zamasu for committing genocide (and let's not act as if Zeno and Beerus were any better), but you cannot blame him for not giving a shit about the cosmos or being too passive.

Notice how in every forums there are several threads which revolve/devolve into a discussion about Zamasu's morality, but I have literally never seen threads like "Was Freeza right?", "Cell did nothing wrong" or "Boo had a point". I will not act like Zamasu is the perfect example of a morally grey character, but he is certainly the most morally ambiguous character in Dragon Ball. Ok, Zamasu killed a lot of people. Beerus does the same thing, and for much less, yet he is a good guy and Zamasu isn't?? Zamasu never committed genocide because he didn't like the food made by a certain species.

All good points but Shin isn't a terrible person. Beerus is a gardener too, unfortunately he is not doing his job properly. However Frieza wasn't right, and Cell did lots of wrong and Buu never had a point. And yeah Zamasu isn't the perfect example of a morally grey character. Also Beerus doesn't seek the destruction of ALL mortal life. There are similarities between Zamasu and Beerus, but also more than a few important differences. Yes you do have a point about Beerus and Zeno, but Zamasu took things to the extreme much like some people in real life and that is why we condemn Zamasu.

[wolflonnie]

Also, Zamasu might be evil as he committed genocide, but the other Gods aren't good either. How much war, death, slavery, and suffering could have been avoided had Shin killed Freeza (and he had the power to do so)? How many innocent lives could have been saved? I completely agree with Zamasu when he said:

"Gardens are tended, not just watched. Should a gardener not pluck the weeds? [...] Merely watching... That's a sin too. Don't you see?"

So much so that it's considered evil and selfish to take photos of two guys punching each other on the streets instead of trying to step in and put a stop to their fight. This is what Gowasu, Shin, and the other Gods do. Let evil spread throughout the cosmos without doing anything about it. Blame Zamasu for committing genocide (and let's not act as if Zeno and Beerus were any better), but you cannot blame him for not giving a shit about the cosmos or being too passive.

Notice how in every forums there are several threads which revolve/devolve into a discussion about Zamasu's morality, but I have literally never seen threads like "Was Freeza right?", "Cell did nothing wrong" or "Boo had a point". I will not act like Zamasu is the perfect example of a morally grey character, but he is certainly the most morally ambiguous character in Dragon Ball. Ok, Zamasu killed a lot of people. Beerus does the same thing, and for much less, yet he is a good guy and Zamasu isn't?? Zamasu never committed genocide because he didn't like the food made by a certain species.

I see your point, but there problem here is that Shin & co. are supposed to watch, it's literally their job.
It's pretty much like an FBI intel guy helping an FBI agent. The FBI agent stops the terrorists, and the intel guy provides... intel. He doesn't act directly because he isn't supposed to.
Kais are chosen to watch and to work together with their GoDs. They should be that FBI intel guy. But they aren't to blame if they don't act.
The problem is that, in most cases, Kais and GoDs don't work together, at all. They are at conflict, and Zeno/Grand Priest/whoever else is their boss doesn't do a good enough job to monitor their conduct.
Zamasu's concern is partially valid, but the core issue is this one, in my opinion - not that they Kais are just watching.
The sin (or rather incompetency) of the Kais is not to cooperate with their GoDs more. But can one blame Shin, since nobody has even instructed him how to do his job? No.

[DragonBallFoodie]

Thank you all for your answers.

I suppose the Zamasu arc works as a deconstruction of the traditional DB format (a DB villain sneaks around, the world is damaged irreparably and cannot be fixed, the story is dark and apocalyptic). It varies how much the deconstruction appeals to fans: some welcome it, and others, like myself, find it too different from DB to fit.

And when you involve gods, you're inevitably getting a god with villainous actions and twisted righteousness. And this being the DB verse, already noted to be a universe filled with imperfect and powerful beings, this god has enough reason to act that way. (I highly doubt though that Toriyama would create a villain who would criticize the world he made, he doesn't think that far and is far too optimistic for such a character).

[Hulk10]

Yeah its true Goku was rather rude when he first met Zamasu but Zamasu didn't like mortals very much and I think he would have gone down the wrong path regardless of whether or not he had met Goku.

[Mago_Gosora]

I definitely agree about what was done to Trunks' time line. I thought it ended perfectly after the fight vs Cell. What need was there, really, to mess with it again? You know, other than Trunks-fan-service....

[SupremeKai25]

Perhaps what makes Zamasu stand out the most is that he doesn't look like a villain.

When you see King Piccolo, Freeza, Cell, and Buu, you see ugly monsters, so it's obvious that they are evil and must be destroyed. But when you look at Zamasu, what do you see? A young Kai. The Kais are the most benevolent and noble beings in creation, so who could have imagined that Zamasu, apparently an innocent apprentice, would have this hatred brewing inside him? That was a nice narrative. Instead of just pasting an ugly monster like Moro, the writers tried to deceive the audience.

[wolflonnie]

Perhaps what makes Zamasu stand out the most is that he doesn't look like a villain.

When you see King Piccolo, Freeza, Cell, and Buu, you see ugly monsters, so it's obvious that they are evil and must be destroyed. But when you look at Zamasu, what do you see? A young Kai. The Kais are the most benevolent and noble beings in creation, so who could have imagined that Zamasu, apparently an innocent apprentice, would have this hatred brewing inside him? That was a nice narrative. Instead of just pasting an ugly monster like Moro, the writers tried to deceive the audience.

Agreed.

[MKCSTEALTH]

For me, what stood out most about the Zamasu Arc was

1) The mystery behind who Goku Black really was
2) How exactly Goku and co. would deal with an immortal being


As for Zamasu himself, I enjoyed him fine. I felt he was definitely overshadowed by Goku Black and I wish that Goku Black had been the focus of the arc over Zamasu. I feel everything around Goku Black was a much more satisfying watch. Seeing him adapt to Saiyan biology, seeing him become more powerful through his anger, his constant rise in power. I will agree they were made a bit too powerful, namely Zamasu's immortality and Goku Black's seemingly limitless adaptability (I am aware he was nearly killed by Vegeta in the manga until Zamasu stepped in)

I personally feel what would have made Zamasu a better character was to turn him into more of a torn character. Goku Black could have been Zamasu had Zamasu fully embraced the "Zero Mortals" ideal. He was ruthless, cutthroat, and didn't care who or what he killed to achieve his goal. The other Zamasu could have been a character that had been considering it but was slowly being won over by Gowasu's teaching, only to see his master cut down and see the "full realization" of his ideals. However, his former master's words could have still rung through his ears. This would have led to him possibly second guess or question if what they were really doing was what was best or if the mortals did deserve that chance. Then, when they fuse, have that (along with the half immortality) be the catalyst for the fusion breaking down and his ultimate defeat.

So in short, have Goku Black been the main antagonist with Zamasu being secondary, questioning himself and whether or not his views are just. That would have made things a bit better so we could have had that traditional "big bad Dragonball villain" along with a newer, more complex villain that we had not seen yet.

[supersaiyanZero]

Again I will say, cool concept with huge potential but poorly executed. If only we got Toei staff who were interested in writing actual characters instead of tropes.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Again I will say, cool concept with huge potential but poorly executed. If only we got Toei staff who were interested in writing actual characters instead of tropes.

Hey, at least we got the better 2 of the 4 Zamasus in the anime compared to the manga.

Gotta give props to the anime staff's writers for at going beyond the manga's lackluster showing.

[supersaiyanZero]

Again I will say, cool concept with huge potential but poorly executed. If only we got Toei staff who were interested in writing actual characters instead of tropes.

Hey, at least we got the better 2 of the 4 Zamasus in the anime compared to the manga.

Gotta give props to the anime staff's writers for at going beyond the manga's lackluster showing.

More charismatic? Maybe. The anime is all flash (I use that word VERY loosely because it is a visual MESS) and no substance, whereas I did enjoy Zamasu interacting with Black a lot more in the manga. I will never get this comparison though, because they are both pretty poor.