Was God Ki a Mistake?

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superfan2024
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Was God Ki a Mistake?

Post by superfan2024 » Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:18 pm

Before God ki in BoG was introduced, our Saiyan character standings were:

Vegetto: The strongest of all the warriors in the Dragon Team.

Gohan: Definitely stronger than Goku, Vegeta, Trunks, and Goten individually, but way weaker than Vegetto.

Gotenks: Definitely stronger than most of the Dragon Team individually, but way weaker than Gohan and Vegetto.

Vegeta: Super Saiyan 2 from what we've seen (judging by BoG if he got angry enough he could go beyond Super Saiyan 3).

Goku: Super Saiyan 3 (judging by Vegeta's rage in BoG, Goku could probably get even more stronger if he got just as angry too).

Goten/Trunks: A little less powerful than Goku and Vegeta we can assume? We don't know if they can go Super Saiyan 2 or 3, but there's a possibility given they went Super Saiyan 3 with Gotenks.

But then God ki just comes and just changes so much, just accelerating the strengths of only Goku and Vegeta, making every single villain stronger than God to be so strong that when everyone aside from Goku and Vegeta fight that said villain, it may seem ridiculous, and/or there's controversy about that specific match-up, and that specific battle.

Not only that, but (at least in my opinion) it makes Goku's excitement for wanting to train Oob just seem weird now that the events of Super are part of the main story.

And Goku and Vegeta seem to be the only relevant ones during battles, and other side characters have little to no chance of getting that spotlight unless:

1. The writers (Toriyama, Toyotaro and/or Toei staff) just disregard the normal power structure so we can have an entertaining battle (i.e. Ikari Trunks).

Or 2. The regular power structure is kept, but the characters aside from Goku and Vegeta are just kept to dealing with fodder, or just getting their butts handed to them if they attempt to fight the big bad guy.

So... by these means.. was God ki (more specifically Super Saiyan God) a mistake that jumped the leap too quickly within the story?

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Miracles
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Re: Was God Ki a Mistake?

Post by Miracles » Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:45 pm

No, Super Saiyan God was a fine idea. It's the bad writers not presenting the canoncial power structure of Dragonball properly. Goku and Vegeta need to fight the strong while the side characters stay in their lane and fight the lower level. I think this was demonstrated properly in Toriyama's RoF film.

Goku fighting Uub at the end is not a problem. Goku always looked at Uub's potential anyway. It wasn't just a matter of him getting a challenge. He was fighting him in base mode at the end.

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Re: Was God Ki a Mistake?

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:37 pm

I think it was necessary for a new level of power to be introduced, otherwise the formula of transformations would always be the same (SSJ4, 5 or variations). A new type of Ki is an interesting concept to drastically increase the power of the characters without seeming strange, but definitely God Ki was not built in the best way possible, both by the writers of the anime, as by Toriyama and Toyotaro.

God Ki was not only badly exploited, the writers also did not know how to balance the level of power of the divine transformations with the other warriors (in BoG it was perceptible the abyss of difference between normal SSJ and SSJ God). In RoF this difference was still clear, but after that it was very confusing

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Re: Was God Ki a Mistake?

Post by KingKaash » Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:44 pm

On one hand I like the introduction of the Gods of Destructions and our main characters Goku and Vegeta finding power that begins to scratch the surface of these godly beings. On the other hand, I hate how secondary characters that we've liked for so long like Gohan and Piccolo are left behind because they won't be able to catch that level.

That's why for me personally, if Planet Eater Moro does come to the anime and can take away the God power from Goku and Vegeta, then Moro would go down as the best DB villain ever
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Re: Was God Ki a Mistake?

Post by MKCSTEALTH » Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:31 am

I dont think the idea is a mistake. I wish it was more of a power that they could tap into so that they were consistently Buu Saga/EoZ era level consistently then tapped into that universal power. That way the other cast could still remain somewhat relevant and it still make sense that they could compete with the likes of Goku and Vegeta even having trained with Whis. All they would have learned would be to master tapping into that Godly power, so when the threats like Goku Black and Jiren come around, they have the solution to it

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Re: Was God Ki a Mistake?

Post by mahakaishin1991 » Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:37 am

the only mistake I feel was letting kaioken go past its initial boost into multipliers ON TOP of god ki. That means everyone has to be escalated by the margin of whatever goku can multiply it by.

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Re: Was God Ki a Mistake?

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:40 am

KingKaash wrote:On one hand I like the introduction of the Gods of Destructions and our main characters Goku and Vegeta finding power that begins to scratch the surface of these godly beings. On the other hand, I hate how secondary characters that we've liked for so long like Gohan and Piccolo are left behind because they won't be able to catch that level.

That's why for me personally, if Planet Eater Moro does come to the anime and can take away the God power from Goku and Vegeta, then Moro would go down as the best DB villain ever

Gohan basically caught up in the anime and manga

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Re: Was God Ki a Mistake?

Post by Yedis » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:14 pm

If it wasn't God Ki, it would be something else.

If the Authors don't want to utilize the rest of the cast, then the plot device doesn't really matter.

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Re: Was God Ki a Mistake?

Post by Lionel » Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:54 am

In theory, I appreciate it. The execution has had its ups and down, to say the least -- nevermind the eye-rolling quandary that's come to define trying to make sense of power levels, how this character measures up to the other, and why this other character could be sensed by someone without god ki when it's supposed to be insensible to other.s

I also dislike the fact that no one else seems to be willing or permitted, by the author, to take advantage of this new power. It's probably safe to say that most of us enjoyed the ensemble formula that came to define the Dragon Ball franchise from the latter portions of DB classic and transitioning over to DBZ. Goku and Vegeta are much beloved by the fandom, but that doesn't mean we want for them to monopolise the narrative with a semi-regular rotating guest-star appearing between the redundant tournaments that are becoming a bit too common, in my opinion.

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Re: Was God Ki a Mistake?

Post by BWri » Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:48 am

RecolorSaiyan wrote:
KingKaash wrote:On one hand I like the introduction of the Gods of Destructions and our main characters Goku and Vegeta finding power that begins to scratch the surface of these godly beings. On the other hand, I hate how secondary characters that we've liked for so long like Gohan and Piccolo are left behind because they won't be able to catch that level.

That's why for me personally, if Planet Eater Moro does come to the anime and can take away the God power from Goku and Vegeta, then Moro would go down as the best DB villain ever

Gohan basically caught up in the anime and manga
^ Yup and that's exactly the problem with it. It's pointless. Frieza in RoF made it useless, then Trunks, and now most of the competitors in ToP including Gohan and Android 17. God ki is a joke and god forms are a joke, because all you need be relevant to god-tiers is stay off-screen for a while or be a new marketable character.

That said, this isnt a problem for me, I just want Super to embrace it or make more characters chase it so it seems like more of a big deal.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-

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Re: Was God Ki a Mistake?

Post by The Monkey King » Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:34 pm

It had potential that was made a joke the instant Freeza caught up with 4 months of training.

That and DBS' horrible writing making everyone God level when it was convenient for the writers.
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Re: Was God Ki a Mistake?

Post by Tai Lung » Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:40 pm

superfan2024 wrote:Before God ki in BoG was introduced, our Saiyan character standings were:

Vegetto: The strongest of all the warriors in the Dragon Team.

Gohan: Definitely stronger than Goku, Vegeta, Trunks, and Goten individually, but way weaker than Vegetto.

Gotenks: Definitely stronger than most of the Dragon Team individually, but way weaker than Gohan and Vegetto.

Vegeta: Super Saiyan 2 from what we've seen (judging by BoG if he got angry enough he could go beyond Super Saiyan 3).

Goku: Super Saiyan 3 (judging by Vegeta's rage in BoG, Goku could probably get even more stronger if he got just as angry too).

Goten/Trunks: A little less powerful than Goku and Vegeta we can assume? We don't know if they can go Super Saiyan 2 or 3, but there's a possibility given they went Super Saiyan 3 with Gotenks.

But then God ki just comes and just changes so much, just accelerating the strengths of only Goku and Vegeta, making every single villain stronger than God to be so strong that when everyone aside from Goku and Vegeta fight that said villain, it may seem ridiculous, and/or there's controversy about that specific match-up, and that specific battle.

Not only that, but (at least in my opinion) it makes Goku's excitement for wanting to train Oob just seem weird now that the events of Super are part of the main story.

And Goku and Vegeta seem to be the only relevant ones during battles, and other side characters have little to no chance of getting that spotlight unless:

1. The writers (Toriyama, Toyotaro and/or Toei staff) just disregard the normal power structure so we can have an entertaining battle (i.e. Ikari Trunks).

Or 2. The regular power structure is kept, but the characters aside from Goku and Vegeta are just kept to dealing with fodder, or just getting their butts handed to them if they attempt to fight the big bad guy.

So... by these means.. was God ki (more specifically Super Saiyan God) a mistake that jumped the leap too quickly within the story?
the ki god is not an error literally is a concept that explains why the level of the destroying gods are so superior to the mortals and because these are so different from the previous minor gods.

besides why the ssj god is superior to the fusions, if beerus was not superior to vegito (z) then ... why did his title of God?.

what limits the story of super is that it focuses before the epilogue if it did not have this limitation would develop much better.

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Re: Was God Ki a Mistake?

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:14 am

God Ki wasn't a mistake, it was just poorly handled by Toriyama, Toei and Toyotaro. None of them knew what to do with the concept after Battle Of Gods.

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Re: Was God Ki a Mistake?

Post by Marlowe89 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:34 pm

Super was a mistake.

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Re: Was God Ki a Mistake?

Post by GreatSaiyaJeff » Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:18 pm

I think God Ki itself is cool. The red form while an underwhelming design to me had a good story behind it. Blue while just a pallet swap with yellow, is cool but it's been meh. I think it's been over hyped in the current show and doesn't seem all that special anymore. Especially since they never really properly explained how they got to blue in the first place.
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Re: Was God Ki a Mistake?

Post by Tai Lung » Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:39 pm

in the case of the negative energy that was created in GT I can consider it a Mistake due to how badly it was in addition to being irrational with the previously seen since the evil ki was only to know when it was bad or not. However, I believe that the God ki was better handled besides that having him does not mean being invincible. That is why Goku lost against Beerus but if he trained him well he has no comparison with someone from normal KI.

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Re: Was God Ki a Mistake?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:47 pm

God Ki was fine, but they should have showcased more the differences with normal ki and, most important, the difficulty in using\mastering it.

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Re: Was God Ki a Mistake?

Post by Regarder » Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:16 pm

I agree with everything else, though God Ki didn't have to be a mistake and had the potential to be interesting until they actually went in the direction they went. As it is, I consider it a mistake. In a show where the battles partly are the story, power scaling remains important (not in silly overly specific numbers like power levels but in terms of a hierarchy), and God Ki messed that up a lot. They've been making efforts to try and use other skills than power though, as we saw during the ToP, so they've been compensating for this somewhat, though even that you can only take so far unless you think Roshi Vs Jiren was a good scene.
Not only that, but (at least in my opinion) it makes Goku's excitement for wanting to train Oob just seem weird now that the events of Super are part of the main story.
Why? It's not like Oob is just fixed at Kid Boo level. The potential of Boo for learning was shown to be really high in terms of techniques, so maybe Goku just assumes in a human form Oob will be able to get great training gains. Already in Super they've shown if even Fat Boo trains just a tiny bit he gets muscled up. They may even retcon in a few new lines to justify it by the time we get there.

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Re: Was God Ki a Mistake?

Post by Mago_Gosora » Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:30 pm

I don't think it was a mistake. It's a good concept that makes sense. And I like the introduction of the god of destruction too, it makes sense to have him as part of the balance of life.

Where I think the god ki idea starts to get a little messy is, like OP said, it automatically makes Son Gokuh and Vegeta more powerful than they were. But one thing I think they could have done better with it is how one obtains it. They don't really get creative at all with that. I don't think it makes sense that 5 non-godly beings - or really no matter how many of them there are - could simply "create" god ki. Then Vegeta just trains himself into it out of nowhere. That's just plain lazy writing. Especially considering it's never explained how he trained himself to obtain it. Another problem with it is that its something that can be temporarily obtained. Like Beerus' ki is god ki, but Son gokuh and Vegeta "use" it for a short time and then... where does it go? How to they summon it back? It just seems so contrived at that point.

I think god ki as a completely separate type of ki is a clever concept. But I think god ki as just another level for just anyone to attain makes it boring. I don't think it should be so easy to obtain, nor do I think it should be as temporary as they've made it like one can just summon it from nowhere.

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Re: Was God Ki a Mistake?

Post by superfan2024 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:10 pm

Mago_Gosora wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:30 pm
I don't think it was a mistake. It's a good concept that makes sense. And I like the introduction of the god of destruction too, it makes sense to have him as part of the balance of life.

Where I think the god ki idea starts to get a little messy is, like OP said, it automatically makes Son Gokuh and Vegeta more powerful than they were. But one thing I think they could have done better with it is how one obtains it. They don't really get creative at all with that. I don't think it makes sense that 5 non-godly beings - or really no matter how many of them there are - could simply "create" god ki. Then Vegeta just trains himself into it out of nowhere. That's just plain lazy writing. Especially considering it's never explained how he trained himself to obtain it. Another problem with it is that its something that can be temporarily obtained. Like Beerus' ki is god ki, but Son gokuh and Vegeta "use" it for a short time and then... where does it go? How to they summon it back? It just seems so contrived at that point.

I think god ki as a completely separate type of ki is a clever concept. But I think god ki as just another level for just anyone to attain makes it boring. I don't think it should be so easy to obtain, nor do I think it should be as temporary as they've made it like one can just summon it from nowhere.
I've always been thinking about that and I must agree.

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