Did Gowasu and Zamasu should replace Shin and Kibito in the Buu Arc?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Tai Lung
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 885
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:38 pm

Did Gowasu and Zamasu should replace Shin and Kibito in the Buu Arc?

Post by Tai Lung » Fri Feb 22, 2019 7:13 pm

we did not know when zamasu lost faith in humanity exactly we only knew that it was a time bomb that soon lashed out against mortals for sins against creation however in the buu arc there were many examples of which shin, kibito and ro kaioshin They were spectators.
-yamu, spopovich and vegeta sold their soul for power and the latter killed many people.
-humans who endangered the universe when they shot at bee "buu's dog and mr satan, making fat buu enraged and as a result was born evil buu.
-goku and vegeta not only proved to be superior to gods but also destroyed The Potara Earrings sacred objects.
-humans who refused to give their energy to goku for the spirit bomb but they accepted by mr satan, which many revere as if it were a god.
in short many examples where zamasu could have an equally suitable origin but the supreme kais of U7 ignored these negative events.
So you think zamasu could have an important role in buu arc? Would it have been better or not?

User avatar
SupremeKai25
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1080
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: Did Gowasu and Zamasu should replace Shin and Kibito in the Buu Arc?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:40 am

Zamasu had already witnessed countless examples like Planet Babari of mortals warring with each other and wasting the gifts granted to them by the Gods, but the last straw that made him realize that mortals weren't just flawed, but a threat that had to be destroyed, was the defeat and humiliated that he suffered at the hands of Goku, a mere mortal who dared raise his fists against a God and stain holy ground with violence. So if Zamasu could have seen what happened during the Boo saga, it would have just been another proof that mortals cannot be trusted, that they are inherently violent, bloodthirsty, and selfish.
"Behold this ultimate vessel. The sword and shield made one. Its strength knows no limits. The power coursing through me is exceptional, glorious, absolute. Stare in awe, I AM JUSTICE INCARNATE!!!"

Zamasu/Fused Zamasu fan.

User avatar
supersaiyanZero
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 368
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:10 am

Re: Did Gowasu and Zamasu should replace Shin and Kibito in the Buu Arc?

Post by supersaiyanZero » Sat Feb 23, 2019 6:40 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:Zamasu had already witnessed countless examples like Planet Babari of mortals warring with each other and wasting the gifts granted to them by the Gods, but the last straw that made him realize that mortals weren't just flawed, but a threat that had to be destroyed, was the defeat and humiliated that he suffered at the hands of Goku, a mere mortal who dared raise his fists against a God and stain holy ground with violence. So if Zamasu could have seen what happened during the Boo saga, it would have just been another proof that mortals cannot be trusted, that they are inherently violent, bloodthirsty, and selfish.
You sure dramatize it a lot more than they did in the show lol.

User avatar
SupremeKai25
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1080
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: Did Gowasu and Zamasu should replace Shin and Kibito in the Buu Arc?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Feb 23, 2019 7:08 pm

supersaiyanZero wrote:
SupremeKai25 wrote:Zamasu had already witnessed countless examples like Planet Babari of mortals warring with each other and wasting the gifts granted to them by the Gods, but the last straw that made him realize that mortals weren't just flawed, but a threat that had to be destroyed, was the defeat and humiliated that he suffered at the hands of Goku, a mere mortal who dared raise his fists against a God and stain holy ground with violence. So if Zamasu could have seen what happened during the Boo saga, it would have just been another proof that mortals cannot be trusted, that they are inherently violent, bloodthirsty, and selfish.
You sure dramatize it a lot more than they did in the show lol.
Zamasu is supposed to be dramatic though, he basically comitted multiversal genocide in the name of justice. And that fight with Goku is the catalyst that set off his Project Zero Mortals.
"Behold this ultimate vessel. The sword and shield made one. Its strength knows no limits. The power coursing through me is exceptional, glorious, absolute. Stare in awe, I AM JUSTICE INCARNATE!!!"

Zamasu/Fused Zamasu fan.

User avatar
coola
I Live Here
Posts: 2839
Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 7:33 am
Location: Poland

Re: Did Gowasu and Zamasu should replace Shin and Kibito in the Buu Arc?

Post by coola » Sat Feb 23, 2019 7:25 pm

If we would also add fact, that Zamazsu would probably try stop Bibbidi from summoning Buu and Gowasu would stop him, that would make him more sympathetic, as viewer would understand his bitterness.
My Twitter: @kamil198811
Bulma fan
Thanks to Discotek:
Magic Knight Rayearth get DVD release in 2015 and Blu-Ray release on 2016
Saint Seiya: The Lost Canvas get DVD release in 2015

User avatar
AnimeNation101
I Live Here
Posts: 2191
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:01 pm
Location: Planet ShoJump

Re: Did Gowasu and Zamasu should replace Shin and Kibito in the Buu Arc?

Post by AnimeNation101 » Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:23 pm

This would definitely have made the FT arc more interesting.
I called it that Gogeta, Bardock, and something Broly related would be in the movie before it was even announced that it was a Broly movie. 8)

"I don't think I'm a hero of justice or anythin'. But those who'd hurt my friends... I won't forgive!"

Nickolaidas
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1016
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:56 pm

Re: Did Gowasu and Zamasu should replace Shin and Kibito in the Buu Arc?

Post by Nickolaidas » Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:12 am

supersaiyanZero wrote:
SupremeKai25 wrote:Zamasu had already witnessed countless examples like Planet Babari of mortals warring with each other and wasting the gifts granted to them by the Gods, but the last straw that made him realize that mortals weren't just flawed, but a threat that had to be destroyed, was the defeat and humiliated that he suffered at the hands of Goku, a mere mortal who dared raise his fists against a God and stain holy ground with violence. So if Zamasu could have seen what happened during the Boo saga, it would have just been another proof that mortals cannot be trusted, that they are inherently violent, bloodthirsty, and selfish.
You sure dramatize it a lot more than they did in the show lol.
He's a diehard fan of the character - did you expect any different?

User avatar
Tai Lung
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 885
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:38 pm

Re: Did Gowasu and Zamasu should replace Shin and Kibito in the Buu Arc?

Post by Tai Lung » Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:51 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:Zamasu had already witnessed countless examples like Planet Babari of mortals warring with each other and wasting the gifts granted to them by the Gods, but the last straw that made him realize that mortals weren't just flawed, but a threat that had to be destroyed, was the defeat and humiliated that he suffered at the hands of Goku, a mere mortal who dared raise his fists against a God and stain holy ground with violence. So if Zamasu could have seen what happened during the Boo saga, it would have just been another proof that mortals cannot be trusted, that they are inherently violent, bloodthirsty, and selfish.
obviously we are explained and we see a bit of it but I think that if Zamasu will replace shin, the spectator could have more empathy with him since we would see his tragedy from his point of view.
AnimeNation101 wrote:This would definitely have made the FT arc more interesting.
I also believe it to be more interesting. Zamasu would be more useful in battles without drastically changing the story in buu arc, but when the time came it would be a great change given to that execution in FT arc.

User avatar
AnimeNation101
I Live Here
Posts: 2191
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:01 pm
Location: Planet ShoJump

Re: Did Gowasu and Zamasu should replace Shin and Kibito in the Buu Arc?

Post by AnimeNation101 » Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:34 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
SupremeKai25 wrote:Zamasu had already witnessed countless examples like Planet Babari of mortals warring with each other and wasting the gifts granted to them by the Gods, but the last straw that made him realize that mortals weren't just flawed, but a threat that had to be destroyed, was the defeat and humiliated that he suffered at the hands of Goku, a mere mortal who dared raise his fists against a God and stain holy ground with violence. So if Zamasu could have seen what happened during the Boo saga, it would have just been another proof that mortals cannot be trusted, that they are inherently violent, bloodthirsty, and selfish.
obviously we are explained and we see a bit of it but I think that if Zamasu will replace shin, the spectator could have more empathy with him since we would see his tragedy from his point of view.
AnimeNation101 wrote:This would definitely have made the FT arc more interesting.
I also believe it to be more interesting. Zamasu would be more useful in battles without drastically changing the story in buu arc, but when the time came it would be a great change given to that execution in FT arc.
Also, the build up from Zamasu about his hate for mortals being above gods and specific hate for Goku and plan to take his body would have been built up way more and better. It would feel more natural. And overall it would just feel like a better plot twist and betrayal.
I called it that Gogeta, Bardock, and something Broly related would be in the movie before it was even announced that it was a Broly movie. 8)

"I don't think I'm a hero of justice or anythin'. But those who'd hurt my friends... I won't forgive!"

User avatar
Saiga
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8266
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:36 pm
Location: Space Australia

Re: Did Gowasu and Zamasu should replace Shin and Kibito in the Buu Arc?

Post by Saiga » Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:39 am

Kibito already disliked mortals so just use him as Goku Black. :angel:
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!

User avatar
Tai Lung
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 885
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:38 pm

Re: Did Gowasu and Zamasu should replace Shin and Kibito in the Buu Arc?

Post by Tai Lung » Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:42 am

AnimeNation101 wrote:
Tai Lung wrote:
SupremeKai25 wrote:Zamasu had already witnessed countless examples like Planet Babari of mortals warring with each other and wasting the gifts granted to them by the Gods, but the last straw that made him realize that mortals weren't just flawed, but a threat that had to be destroyed, was the defeat and humiliated that he suffered at the hands of Goku, a mere mortal who dared raise his fists against a God and stain holy ground with violence. So if Zamasu could have seen what happened during the Boo saga, it would have just been another proof that mortals cannot be trusted, that they are inherently violent, bloodthirsty, and selfish.
obviously we are explained and we see a bit of it but I think that if Zamasu will replace shin, the spectator could have more empathy with him since we would see his tragedy from his point of view.
AnimeNation101 wrote:This would definitely have made the FT arc more interesting.
I also believe it to be more interesting. Zamasu would be more useful in battles without drastically changing the story in buu arc, but when the time came it would be a great change given to that execution in FT arc.
Also, the build up from Zamasu about his hate for mortals being above gods and specific hate for Goku and plan to take his body would have been built up way more and better. It would feel more natural. And overall it would just feel like a better plot twist and betrayal.
I am largely in agreement, in the case of gowasu, he is a old wise master and passive who accepts his role and prefers not to intervene directly would make him feel less useless in comparison with shin since his explanation of only guiding mortals would be a little better achieved at least in the mission to stop babidi simply.
So ... Zamasu can face dabura not like kibito ...
Saiga wrote:Kibito already disliked mortals so just use him as Goku Black. :angel:
It does not work, zamasu is loved for its charisma, elegant design and dramatic style of acting etc
kibito is of the rough and coarse type in appearance does not match for that role is like having dodoria in the role of frieza.

User avatar
SupremeKai25
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1080
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: Did Gowasu and Zamasu should replace Shin and Kibito in the Buu Arc?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:03 am

Tai Lung wrote:
SupremeKai25 wrote:Zamasu had already witnessed countless examples like Planet Babari of mortals warring with each other and wasting the gifts granted to them by the Gods, but the last straw that made him realize that mortals weren't just flawed, but a threat that had to be destroyed, was the defeat and humiliated that he suffered at the hands of Goku, a mere mortal who dared raise his fists against a God and stain holy ground with violence. So if Zamasu could have seen what happened during the Boo saga, it would have just been another proof that mortals cannot be trusted, that they are inherently violent, bloodthirsty, and selfish.
obviously we are explained and we see a bit of it but I think that if Zamasu will replace shin, the spectator could have more empathy with him since we would see his tragedy from his point of view.
AnimeNation101 wrote:This would definitely have made the FT arc more interesting.
I also believe it to be more interesting. Zamasu would be more useful in battles without drastically changing the story in buu arc, but when the time came it would be a great change given to that execution in FT arc.
To be honest I already sympathized with Zamasu, especially when he went to Planet Babari, because that species didn't evolve in a thousand years, and a member of that species did try to kill him and Gowasu.

But Yes, if Zamasu had been there to witness people like Spopovich and his friend, Majin Vegeta, that psycopath who shot the dog, or even Mr. Satan who acts like he is a God, he would definitely have even more arguments to use in his defense.

The thing is, Zamasu isn't wrong about mortals. We can agree that his methods were extreme, but mortals are inherently flawed and violent creatures, and often in the Dragon Ball universe their conflicts ended up threatening the entire cosmos. The Boo saga is the best example of this. The arrogance and greed mortals resurrected an ancient monster who threatened to destroy the universe.

It would be even more intriguing if Gowasu died before Zamasu turned evil, I wonder how that would affect him. Future Zamasu was already kind of evil when Black visited him and he was clearly shocked by his master's death. Zamasu wasn't a sociopath, he had a lot of respect for Gowasu whom he considered to be a friend, sadly Gowasu was a useless master. Boo killing Gowasu in front of the young Zamasu's eyes could make for a very sad scene.
"Behold this ultimate vessel. The sword and shield made one. Its strength knows no limits. The power coursing through me is exceptional, glorious, absolute. Stare in awe, I AM JUSTICE INCARNATE!!!"

Zamasu/Fused Zamasu fan.

User avatar
RandomGuy96
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8784
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 pm
Location: San Diego, California, USA

Re: Did Gowasu and Zamasu should replace Shin and Kibito in the Buu Arc?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:35 am

Saiga wrote:Kibito already disliked mortals so just use him as Goku Black. :angel:
Or have Kibitoshin as Black, due to Kaioshin's youthful brashness and fear being corrupted by Kibito's cynicism and distrust of mortals.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

User avatar
Saiga
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8266
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:36 pm
Location: Space Australia

Re: Did Gowasu and Zamasu should replace Shin and Kibito in the Buu Arc?

Post by Saiga » Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:36 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:
Saiga wrote:Kibito already disliked mortals so just use him as Goku Black. :angel:
Or have Kibitoshin as Black, due to Kaioshin's youthful brashness and fear being corrupted by Kibito's cynicism and distrust of mortals.
That'd work but then there's the whole lifeline with Beerus to worry about. Unless present Kibitoshin is redeemed instead of killed off.

It's a fun idea, anyway.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!

User avatar
Fizzer
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1396
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:01 pm
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Did Gowasu and Zamasu should replace Shin and Kibito in the Buu Arc?

Post by Fizzer » Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:26 am

I actually think Gowasu should have been the Kaioshin of Universe 6, with him and Zamasu present at the Tournament of Destroyers. Goku ticks Zamasu off early on before the tournament even starts by challenging him to a fight after he's introduced as a prodigy, then the mortals continue to shock him with their power and defiance during the tournament.

This way we avoid the convoluted introduction to the character at the start of the arc that neither the anime or manga got right, and are already familiar with the character when people start to suspect him. He has a reason to know about and be interested in Goku and the Super Dragon Balls, and to be particularly active in (U6 and) U7.

It also prevents the whole causal loop of Goku only meeting Zamasu because of Black, which was never part of Dragon Ball's temporal mechanics before.

I really like this idea of them being U7's gods too, though. The more I think about it, the more I think it would be incredible to have him be pretty much a main character who spirals into darkness.

In this scenario would you still introduce Old Kai, or have Gowasu after much deliberation finally decide to break his taboo and interfere by powering up Gohan, and then restoring Goku's life?

User avatar
Koitsukai
Regular
Posts: 522
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Did Gowasu and Zamasu should replace Shin and Kibito in the Buu Arc?

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:12 pm

It would be an interesting change of pace, we'd go right into the action, well he might go into the action all alone, he wouldn't need to go ask for help at the Tenkaichi Budokai, he is not a bitch like Shin.
Zamasu if it wasn't for his immortality should've died against SS2 Trunks(who is just above Dabura and weaker than SS3) so mid Buu arc would render Zamasu useless, but if he is introduced early on he should be enough to stop Dabura and Buu's resurrection. He might lose it after that and go on a rampage killing individually Vegeta, Gohan and make Goku go SS3 to stop him. If he stops Buu's resurrection, Zamasu could be the main villain of the arc only if the decides to ignore Gowasu's orders. Gowasu would tell him that their job is done and return home never meeting the fighterZ.

User avatar
Tai Lung
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 885
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:38 pm

Re: Did Gowasu and Zamasu should replace Shin and Kibito in the Buu Arc?

Post by Tai Lung » Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:41 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: To be honest I already sympathized with Zamasu, especially when he went to Planet Babari, because that species didn't evolve in a thousand years, and a member of that species did try to kill him and Gowasu.

But Yes, if Zamasu had been there to witness people like Spopovich and his friend, Majin Vegeta, that psycopath who shot the dog, or even Mr. Satan who acts like he is a God, he would definitely have even more arguments to use in his defense.

The thing is, Zamasu isn't wrong about mortals. We can agree that his methods were extreme, but mortals are inherently flawed and violent creatures, and often in the Dragon Ball universe their conflicts ended up threatening the entire cosmos. The Boo saga is the best example of this. The arrogance and greed mortals resurrected an ancient monster who threatened to destroy the universe.

It would be even more intriguing if Gowasu died before Zamasu turned evil, I wonder how that would affect him. Future Zamasu was already kind of evil when Black visited him and he was clearly shocked by his master's death. Zamasu wasn't a sociopath, he had a lot of respect for Gowasu whom he considered to be a friend, sadly Gowasu was a useless master. Boo killing Gowasu in front of the young Zamasu's eyes could make for a very sad scene.
yes, I also agree that zamasu was right in the aspect that mortals were directly or indirectly guilty of many of the negative events of DB as the case of cell creation or liberation of Buu it is true that one can understand the annoyance of zamasu to observe the planet barbari and see how they were only machines of violence and destruction however I mean that the spectators could sympathize "more" with zamasu because he would start as an ally in the buu arc, who would extend his hand as a savior to help humans But then I would painfully understand that mortals have no salvation and that they seek their own destruction with their actions. I think it is an interesting perspective.
Fizzer wrote: In this scenario would you still introduce Old Kai, or have Gowasu after much deliberation finally decide to break his taboo and interfere by powering up Gohan, and then restoring Goku's life?
they can still be originating from the universe 10 but they were helping the universe 7 due to the "emergence" of the situation with Majin Buu, I do not see it as necessary to eliminate Shin and Kibito only to pass them to more secondary characters. Ultimately the universe 7 should have 4 supreme kais but after dying the majority there are only 2 so it could be argued that zamasu and gowasu would temporarily take that position until the appearance of Ro kaioshin.

Post Reply