Things/concepts Toriyama/Toei ruined..

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GodVegetto91
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Things/concepts Toriyama/Toei ruined..

Post by GodVegetto91 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:26 am

So over the many years, Toriyama and Toei (mostly Toriyama ofcourse) have ruined a fair share of things.. Perfect concepts that started out great, and had incredible potential.. If only these were just allowed to continue.... Sadly, they didn’t. I will now list several of these things that Trolliyama ruined..

• Gohan

• Base Vegito stomping Buuhan not being a part of the official manga as is Vegeta training under 450x earth’s normal gravity before unlocking Super Saiyan.

• Base Saiyan Beyond God

Ruined in the U6 arc when that stupid, hideous, (in the way) SSJ1 transformation was forced to show up.

• Hey! Goku and Vegeta’s RoF outfits while training under Whis! Yet ANOTHER thing they had to ruin!

• Merged Zamasu.

The dude had ENORMOUS potential! Being comprised of an immortal (WITH instant regeneration might i add) and a being/Saiyan that can only get stronger (And rapidly so!)

Yet they blew that away...

• Ultra Instinct Omen...

Now THIS is the one i wanted to talk about and the one that is the most dissapointing...

UI Omen was literally THE PERFECT Form! It looked absolutely fabulous! And nearly the entire fanbase prefered that look over the “completed” version. So by changing the hair from black to silver, they immediately “RUINED”a PERFECT look! Are they actually trying to annoy us or piss us off? Because it certainly looks like it.

Every time Toriyama or Toei come up with a perfect concept, they always have to ruin it in the end. Never are we allowed to truly have what we want. It’s like they can get inside our minds and know exactly what we want to exploit us, and than draw us in further until “dumping” us again.

• The Broly movie, while not a “ruin”, it was a pretty big let down, that Ultra Instinct Goku did not make an appearance, and instead of Vegito, we got Gogeta. The 10 thousand bp line did not make it in the movie (despite being advertised) and Broly did not master his LSSJ like kale did.

• They ruined the supposive “untouchability” of MUI, as Jiren was clearly shown to be able to hit (and overpower) him. This is bad writing and advertising.

• Godly Ki

Does this one even need explaining? It’s pretty much useless now, as there are DOZENS of characters without it that can match (or surpass) it.

Tagoma (not that i care, but hey, it’s just another thing they ruined!)

I’m sure there are many more examples but i’ve just covered the basics here and the most important ones.

Do any of you have any to add to the list? To the loooong list of ruinations?
Last edited by GodVegetto91 on Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Things/concepts Toriyama/Toei ruined..

Post by BWri » Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:27 am

I feel your pain but I wouldn't say "ruined". I'd say that a lot of ideas did not live up to their potential and there has been much disappointment from me as a fan ever since the Buu saga. Before that, I could easily sit back and enjoy DB without much of a thought, but during Buu a lot of missteps made me think critically about what I was watching and for the first time say "I don't like this very much". The main thing back then was the Saiyan overload and the downplay of many awesome characters.

But like you, I do have a list of concepts that I feel were a let down

Super Saiyan 2 - Didn't get enough time as the de facto form IMO.
Piccolo + Kami - Such a legendary fusion, already considered weak before the end of the arc.
Gohan - Should have been the main guy after Cell saga
Goten - very little personality, was a bad idea to make him look identical to Goku
Dabura
King Cold
Androids 17 & 18 - Cool characters that never got to do much in the original DBZ run
God ki
Other universes - they all mostly seem so disappointing now even universe 6
Twin universe Saiyans - all mostly lame versions of our saiyans, don't even have unique transformations
Jiren
Hit - 0 personality and not much bearing on the story. Already jobbed out to the next strongest guy before cementing his legacy
Frieza's return
Piccolo and Gohan in Super - these two should be legitimate backup to Goku and Vegeta even if they arent as strong.
Krillin's relevance - great buildup episodes but Toriyama had nothing for him after Toei's decent mini arc.
Tien - I know many think the humans need to retire at this point and now with Super's treatment of Tien, I have to agree. Could have been a really cool and unique fighter though. Could have even been strong if more was revealed about his heritage.
Roshi - They did an okay job and I really did like the Roshi moments, but none of them were earned really.
Power ups - would have been awesome to see all are favorite characters training in the background and breaking their limits over the course of the show instead of offscreen at the very last moment.
ToP - quite a mess of a tournament with a lackluster buildup.
Zeno - a disappointing lord of everything
GP - Should have more story relevance
GoD Toppo - should have been the final villain for the ToP ... if not for
Zamasu Zeno - Should have been the real final villain of the ToP, leading into a much more interesting arc.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-

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Re: Things/concepts Toriyama/Toei ruined..

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:33 pm

How was Fused Zamasu ruined? I think that both the anime and the manga handled him well (with the anime version being much better though, I was not a fan of the manga Fused Zamasu who looked very muscular and lacked his flashy divine techniques), The thing is, an immortal enemy, with instant regeneration, limitless potential, and ultimate strength is way too OP. Fused Zamasu needed to have a drawback. In the anime, it was his flawed immortality. In the manga, it was his limited strength. Honestly the writers didn't really have a choice. The villain needs to have at least one flaw.

Plus, Fused Zamasu ultimately merged with the very fabric of the cosmos and was so powerful that the King of All himself had to step in to erase him alongside the rest of the multiverse, so I'd say that the writers did justice to him in the end.
Hail Fused Zamasu, the One True Supreme God of the cosmos.

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Re: Things/concepts Toriyama/Toei ruined..

Post by Tai Lung » Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:13 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:26 am
• Gohan
a little late I would say from the buu arc though it depends on what you mean by it
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:26 am
• Base Vegito stomping Buuhan not being a part of the official manga as is Vegeta training under 450x earth’s normal gravity before unlocking Super Saiyan.
true
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:26 am
• Base Saiyan Beyond God
true
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:26 am
• Hey! Goku and Vegeta’s RoF outfits while training under Whis! Yet ANOTHER thing they had to ruin!

I do not see it necessary, it's just clothes that are not very different from what they used
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:26 am
• Merged Zamasu.

The dude had ENORMOUS potential! Being comprised of an immortal (WITH instant regeneration might i add) and a being/Saiyan that can only get stronger (And rapidly so!)

Yet they blew that away...

I do not see how it was ruined
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:26 am
• Ultra Instinct Omen...

Now THIS is the one i wanted to talk about and the one that is the most dissapointing...

UI Omen was literally THE PERFECT Form! It looked absolutely fabulous! And nearly the entire fanbase prefered that look over the “completed” version. So by changing the hair from black to silver, they immediately “RUINED”a PERFECT look! Are they actually trying to annoy us or piss us off? Because it certainly looks like it.

Every time Toriyama or Toei come up with a perfect concept, they always have to ruin it in the end. Never are we allowed to truly have what we want. It’s like they can get inside our minds and know exactly what we want to exploit us, and than draw us in further until “dumping” us again.

• The Broly movie, while not a “ruin”, it was a pretty big let down, that Ultra Instinct Goku did not make an appearance, and instead of Vegito, we got Gogeta. The 10 thousand bp line did not make it in the movie (despite being advertised) and Broly did not master his LSSJ like kale did.

• They ruined the supposive “untouchability” of MUI, as Jiren was clearly shown to be able to hit (and overpower) him. This is bad writing and advertising.
I agree with the UI omen but only for the design ...and with the gogeta is true
Ehh as such was never said to be "invincible" and for both versions Goku MUI lost control as I had more use it has not to do with bad writing is just wear.
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:26 am
• Godly Ki
I would be one of the few who believed that this was not ruined, it just did not clear up properly, but the God did not mean to be invincible. If he trained properly, he could have great results
BWri wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:27 am
Hit - 0 personality and not much bearing on the story. Already jobbed out to the next strongest guy before cementing his legacy
in the anime if he showed himself in spite of being to hit killer he proved to have honor and like goku he can not bear to be manipulated he started to enjoy more of the fighting and to improve his skills thanks to goku besides being in a new facet of leader with the team u6 in addition to saving many of his teammates. all contrary to jiren.
BWri wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:27 am
GoD Toppo - should have been the final villain for the ToP ... if not for
I do not see toppo god as a villain at least not as it was raised this.

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Re: Things/concepts Toriyama/Toei ruined..

Post by The gr » Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:27 pm

I'd said they botched the battle royal concept and multiple universes wether is Toyotaro and Toei.

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Re: Things/concepts Toriyama/Toei ruined..

Post by Mago_Gosora » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:22 am

Death -
Not only has its impact been diminished but so have both the drawback and permanence of death. It all started with Namek where new dragon balls were introduced, you know the ones that can revive a person ANY number of times... Sure that had a trade-off, but not for long since they "upgraded" not only the Namek dragon balls but the Earth dragon balls as well. Now they both practically have the same power as the other, except one has a now-arbitrary hurdle of having to speak Namekian to use them. So as many times as Kurilin has died, it doesn't matter if he does again because we know they're bringing him back anyway. Now he's lived long enough to see himself made shorter and skinnier than he used to be. But really the rules of death, or lack thereof, in this series applies to anyone. Takes a lot of the suspense out of every new situation.

Super-saiyan -
It was a genious concept... was. It was this legendary transformation that only one saiyan every 10,000 years can achieve. And it really felt like Son Gokuh had had done something really important not just in saiyan history but in the history of the planet he grew up on. And even though he'd achieved it, he still couldn't quite control it to his will. But then Trunks came, Vegeta managed to do it, and then Gohan. By this time, Toriyama was just handing it out to just anyone with Saiyan blood. Now it's a temporary power than can be summoned at any time and simply training can help you too achieve this transformation. Then there were different levels of it, and now forms of it with god ki. It's become a mess.

"Enemies-become-friends" -
I think this has been run into the ground by now. Started getting old right about the time Piccolo Jr became "one of the gang." I will admit, though, the way they did Majin Boo was good and creative. But the worst of it all is bringing Freezer back for good and allying with him. Sure, he says he's gonna stick with being bad and kill Son Gokuh & co, but that's what Vegeta said too... and Piccolo. I've seen enough Dragon Ball to know where this is going. Why can't bad guys stay gone and dead? I suppose next they're gonna bring back Cell and have him unironically become part of the gang too....

God ki -
Made a post about this in another thread. I think it's a good concept that was executed poorly.
Mago_Gosora wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:30 pm
Where I think the god ki idea starts to get a little messy is......it automatically makes Son Gokuh and Vegeta more powerful than they were. But one thing I think they could have done better with it is how one obtains it. They don't really get creative at all with that. I don't think it makes sense that 5 non-godly beings - or really no matter how many of them there are - could simply "create" god ki. Then Vegeta just trains himself into it out of nowhere. That's just plain lazy writing. Especially considering it's never explained how he trained himself to obtain it. Another problem with it is that its something that can be temporarily obtained. Like Beerus' ki is god ki, but Son Gokuh and Vegeta "use" it for a short time and then... where does it go? How to they summon it back? It just seems so contrived at that point.

I think god ki as a completely separate type of ki is a clever concept. But I think god ki as just another level for just anyone to attain makes it boring. I don't think it should be so easy to obtain, nor do I think it should be as temporary as they've made it like one can just summon it from nowhere.
Trunks' time line -
Other than fan service, I don't think there was any real reason to bring Trunks back and destroy his entire time line. I thought it concluded perfectly the first time after he beat Cell and the cyborgs. Toriyama ruined that perfectly good ending.

Ultra instinct -
It's not so much of a ruined idea as it is a wasted one. But I think the purpose, concept, and design of ultra instinct is bad. It's supposed to be the pinnacle of Son Gokuh's state of mind while fighting, a perfectly clear mind that allows his body to act without needing to use his mind or senses. But he's already long since conquered that. It's just an asspull so Toriyama can "introduce" yet another *new* "transformation." And speaking of asspull, all he did was make his hair white/silver and his eyes gray. Plus, (and I touch more on this later) while in the manga its merely a state of mind, in the TV show - oh boy - you'd think he obtained a new super power from Zeus himself or something. Plus, about its purpose... there is none. It did nothing in the fight. He still lost and Freezer saved the day. I understand needing a selling point and to build hype, but there should really be a real reason/purpose behind it too. This was just an all around bad idea from start to finish.

Zenoh -
I think I have a good idea where the root of my issue with the way this was handled comes from. This is not something unique to Dragon Ball or Toriyama, but a lot of media like to introduce characters you can see. They get so caught up in looking for a design for each and every concept they don't think outside the box. I don't think the king/god/head of all existence actually needs a physical appearance. It could be a much deeper entity in the series if it were an incorporeal being/force. They actually did this in Digimon Adventure Tri. There are 2 of them, Yggdrasil and Homeostasis. One way each of them makes an "appearance" is they possess a human. But we don't even need to go that far in DBS, because there are the angels and grand priest and all those beings. I think they really wasted a good opportunity here to think outside the box and do something never done in DB, instead of - ya know - the Zenoh we got...

This one is more specific to Toei:

Dragon Ball Super -
I usually prefer to watch the TV show version of Dragon Ball. But the TV show for Dragon Ball Super just... sucks. The manga is pretty good, so I can't fault Toriyama on this one. Toei seems to be deliberately putting minimal effort and money into Super to make maximum profit off this series. The animation is cheap and computer generated, it pales in comparison to the hand drawn works of 20 yrs ago. That isn't even my biggest issue with the TV show. It's just the way they handle the story. The pacing is wonky, they seem to attempt to create a sense of urgency and suspense but fail to make me feel any kind of foreboding feeling, the music sounds cheap and simplistic compared to the music they used to make for the series, and the extra non-manga scenes bore me which is totally the opposite of how I felt watching DB & DBZ.

I much prefer the way the manga is written over the show.

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Re: Things/concepts Toriyama/Toei ruined..

Post by Grimlock » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:57 am

• Super Saiyan 2 •

It still boggles my mind to think that amazing form was quickly outdated by other random transformations. Super Saiyan 2 should at least have been the strongest form throughout the Majin Buu saga.

• Makaio, Makaioshin, Demon Realm and alternate dimensions •

Introduced but not explored? One does not simply presents something and never touches it. Thank god this franchise has Dimps, the only one that has proved that it wants to do something with other concepts (and not be stuck with the same ideas over and over).

• Future Trunks saga ending •

A good saga deserves a good end right? Right...!? Please... Anything, and I mean anything, but don't make Trunks to go living with himself...

• Yadorat and Tsufurujins •

Yadorat has a lot of techniques + the series urges for different, new techniques = let's keep the characters using the same old techniques.
An Yadorat from another Universe (that is not Universe 6) is fighting for Universe 2 team. Well, let's see what's going on, I can't wait for an expla... Hey, what? No, Dragon Ball Super, don't go! Come back here, don't you dare end without explaining what the fuck was a Yadorat doing in another Universe... Oh god, there it goes...

So huh... There was this strange race here... Tsufuru, right? Huh, what should we do? Toriyama does nothing, Toei did but it is ignored... Look, they were mentioned in a 2014 interview; there is this new 2018/2019 movie that was supposed to tell the origins of the "powerful race, the Saiyans" according to the first tagline, maybe they'll do something with them? Now let's keep this between us: there was a Tsufurujin in the Tournament of Power correct? Anyone?

Dishonorable mention: • Multiverse/Megaverse •

It got introduced, only to be nearly wasted in tournaments if it wasn't for Future Trunks saga, and of course, Dimps again. This concept here (along with many others mentioned) still has potential, do something useful and interesting with it at once.

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Re: Things/concepts Toriyama/Toei ruined..

Post by MKCSTEALTH » Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:53 pm

I put a lot of blame on Toei for some of the anime's folly. However, as far as Toriyama is concerned, I despise the idea of midicholriansS-Cells for the Saiyans. Like just no


As for Toei, I think the handling of the ending of the Future Trunks arc was a mess. It was done a bit better in the Manga, but more so from a "no random Spirit Bomb" moment. I also was not a fan of the Potara retcon, as there was already an established method to undo a Potara fusion through the Dragon Balls. If Vegito had stayed fused, we could've gotten a fight between him and Vegito in the past which would've been fun to see

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Re: Things/concepts Toriyama/Toei ruined..

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:27 pm

The Mafuba - Constantly mentioned as the crutch technique that could defeat King Piccolo. But Roshi spectacularly fails when he uses it against King Piccolo, Tenshinhan never gets the chance to use it because of Plot-Induced-Stupidity, and Future Trunks/Goku royally fuck up when using it against Zamasu. It was only during the Tournament Of Power (in the Super anime) that the Mafuba was ever successful in combat. The Mafuba could have, and should have, been used far more than it was after the King Piccolo arc and should have been far more practical in combat instead of feeling like a glorified prop.

Piccolo and Kami Fusing - I ranted and raved about this when I re-watched the "Z portion" of Dragon Ball last year:


Gohan after the Freeza arc - Just about everything regarding Gohan after the events on Namek feels directionless and poorly written. He is non-existent for 90% of the Cell arc -- the very same arc where the torch is meant to be passed onto him -- and is terribly characterized in said arc.

Then by the time of the Majin Boo arc rolls around, he gives up martial arts, then retreads the same character arc from the Saiyan arc AND the Freeza arc. But despite all that, Gohan still remains a static character, and arguably even manages to somehow regress in some areas.

Then he is granted the most convenient power-up ever, to become the strongest non-fused fighter in the universe, and then has the narrative equivalent of having a bridge dropped on him in the 11th hour and fades into obscurity.

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Re: Things/concepts Toriyama/Toei ruined..

Post by ruler9871 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:00 pm

Mago_Gosora wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:22 am

This one is more specific to Toei:

Dragon Ball Super -
I usually prefer to watch the TV show version of Dragon Ball. But the TV show for Dragon Ball Super just... sucks. The manga is pretty good, so I can't fault Toriyama on this one. Toei seems to be deliberately putting minimal effort and money into Super to make maximum profit off this series. The animation is cheap and computer generated, it pales in comparison to the hand drawn works of 20 yrs ago. That isn't even my biggest issue with the TV show. It's just the way they handle the story. The pacing is wonky, they seem to attempt to create a sense of urgency and suspense but fail to make me feel any kind of foreboding feeling, the music sounds cheap and simplistic compared to the music they used to make for the series, and the extra non-manga scenes bore me which is totally the opposite of how I felt watching DB & DBZ.

I much prefer the way the manga is written over the show.
This is the opposite of what I see. The DBS Manga is clearly worse than the anime by nearly every objective category except the BoG arc. From its medicore-to-bad art with bad anatomy (except for some scenes from the Black arc), to Toyotaro's inability to write an effective antagonist (especially his version of Black, who there is just an even worse rehash of Xicor), to its flatter and even more inconsistent characterizations of literally everyone compare to the anime, to his tendency to over-explain what doesn't need to be, to his tendency to regress characters just to repeat past development, to nearly everything about the manga's ToP, etc. Also, with the exceptions of MSSB Goku vs Merged Zamasu and Freeza vs the U6 Saiyans, none of the fights in Toyotaro's manga stand out. The rest are either all mediocre or bad.

Speaking of animation, since the U6 arc the DBS Anime actually has better animation on average than all of the previous series (as pointed out by AnimeAjay and others) and DBS episodes 110, 130, and 131 in particular are better animated than literally any episode of Early DB, Z and GT.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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