Tai Lung wrote: ↑
Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:45 pm
kale makes Frieza bleed.
After Kale's surprise attack is done Frieza is smiling, laughing to himself that there are so many new forms of Super Saiyan. Frieza's not the sort of character to smile or laugh when he knows he's outmatched. He simply doesn't fear Kale even though she spent the last 15 or so panels beating him up. And more importantly, he is undamaged aside from a few superficial scuff marks.
kale makes Goku SSB back a little bit 100%
Goku never backs down in this fight. At the last minute, she surprises him because her power keeps rising and breaks through his guard because he didn't expect her to be so strong, but he never moves from his spot even under a barrage of her punches. Frieza's kick is what moves him.
the beating that kale gives him already denies that argument so frieza can not prove it,
Wasn't much of a beating if Frieza is still laughing about it afterwards.
goku can feel the KI and knows very well that he could not with kale, that's why he helps him, really frieza doesn't wants to get help from goku.
That's not explicit. Only Roshi was worried about Frieza, and so he asked him to help Frieza. It could've even been the perfect excuse Goku needed to interfere in the fight because he wanted to.
BWri wrote: ↑
Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:52 am
Kefla's not that strong. She's strong but you have to keep in mind when she fused Kale's power was already dropping because she was at her limit and injured. And a normal fusion of Kale, who's likely not as strong as Frieza and Califla who is no where near Frieza would likely only result in someone who's not much stronger than Frieza (depending on how strong Califla actually is). That's why I don't think manga Kefla is even close to as strong as the anime version. Anime version is much stronger with proper feats and statements directly taking on the likes of UI Omen Goku and having an amplified strike compared directly to the Spirit Bomb formed by U7.
In the manga Vados just says she "may be
unmatched on this battlefield" a statement that leaves much doubt. Even if she is comparing to Goku vs Toppo from the Exhibition, here they should be stronger, and Frieza is arguably on their level, so yeah she may be stronger than them at that time but who's to say by how much..
that excuse has no validity because neither vados nor champa say that, also which is never proven
Doesn't matter if Vados or Champa didn't say it. They don't have to say something for it to be true. They don't say a lot of things.
.. it is more this is denied 2 times the fusion heals the wounds and the loss of energy kefla does not seem to be tired and has no injury, the same case with zamasu in the manga was strong enough to fight with the 100% ssjB, he did not suffer loss of energy.
That could be true, and that might not be true. I don't remember any explicitly saying that fusion heals you. I also don't remember anyone taking the same level of damage that Kale and Kefla did before using the Potara. If Zamasu is the only one, well, he's immortal.
is still the argument of the angel who saw the fight of goku blue 100% vs toppo, and later Golden frieza vs kale or Vegeta VS Toppo
It's not a strong argument. Remember, In the manga Vados just says she "may be
unmatched on this battlefield"
BWri wrote: ↑
Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:52 am
Yes, and my statement mentioned that, but also mentioned that it wouldn't take long for Gohan to gain his old power back with intense
training, especially if he was using the gravity room like was shown in the manga. From there he'd just build upon that and with his potential he could easily close the gap between himself and the two Saiyan leads..
Vegeta has been training in the gravity room for years and is not accomplishing anything like that
they are still a very short time and in the zamasu arc it is made clear that he still had not recovered because that does not make sense because that does not make sense.
Vegeta's potential is nowhere near Gohan's. It took him 7 years after the Cell saga to get stronger than SSJ2 Gohan from the Cell fight. Gohan even ended the Buu arc astronomically stronger than Vegeta. It wasn't even close. And we now see that any level of training is still viable in the series, even extreme gravity and normal Earth gravity. After all, in the anime Gohan himself gained his Ultimate state and got to God tier with two days of Earth training and #17's training is all in normal earth gravity and he's between SSJ3 and SSB. What's more, Goku and Whis still use gravity room training occasionally.
it has been said that it is of a privileged race in addition to evolution and that it was born with its power anyway it is still relevant in later battles of gohan it is not saying anything now out of the high potential that it had but that to what it was seen is a bad joke
if I consider what gohan vs kefla a more without sense aberration than all that, at the level of roshi vs jiren
Gohan is a consistent aberration though, he always has huge power spikes. This one is no less ridiculous than going from weaker than his SSJ2 form 7 years prior in the Buu saga to getting stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks and Super Buu in less than a week. It's no less ridiculous than him losing so much power at the start of Super that many people considered him weaker than the start of the Buu saga. He just gains and loses an extreme amount of power over and over again, that's his thing.
Vegeta receives the guidance of whis besides getting the god ki is not comparable to a simple gravity training on earth.
Whis' training is great, but it's not needed to great even stronger than the GoDs. Or does Jiren not exist? I already said Whis' training was great for allowing Goku and Vegeta to break past their Buu saga limits, but its not necessary for reaching GoD levels. At the end of the Buu saga, Gohan was closer than anyone to reaching GoD PL. If he never stopped training, he would've eventually gotten there most likely. Vegeta talks about his potential even in the Tournament of Destroyers arc.
frieza need a transformation to equalize with they.
Yeah, but he did it in only four months and the transformation is an extension of his own potential.
in the anime trunks need a transformation to equalize.
Yeah and he wasn't even trained by Whis. That goes against your point doesn't it? "Vegeta receives the guidance of whis besides getting the god ki is not comparable to a simple gravity training on earth.
" Trunks doesn't even have a gravity chamber. He trains in normal Earth gravity and yet he gets as strong as Goku and Vegeta in your words.
and in the manga I do not reach that level although its transformation in ssj2 is stronger.
really not, is not the fic of gohan blanco.
Gohan Blanco and El Hermano still make me laugh, sorry. SSJ2 is sort of fluid in both the anime and manga. Trunks might have a FP variant of it like Goku and Gohan with SSJ1 in the Cell games.
because in any case with a year of training in the room of time would have reached that level in cell games.
Gohan had to recover first and for the zamasu arc he had not done it yet.
Anime or manga? In the anime, I don't think he started training hard until the end of the arc, at least it seemed like he was out of shape until the end.
that reaches the level of the god red is enough, that it exceeds the powers of goku and vegeta is already a nonsense for time and how he trained.
It's fine. None of this makes sense anymore. Gohan is at least known to gain and lose extreme amounts of power all the time. In his first appearance in the show as a small child he started out 4x stronger than the Hero and Villain of the previous arc. I really don't care if he gets extreme power boosts, because he's always gotten them.
I already explained why kefla is stronger than all the characters without counting jiren
kale alone almost takes them out, being vegeta is transformed in SSB. Here it does not count lowering the guard.
I keep thinking the same thing is more consistent in the constancy but not in the final result.
Caulifla is average at best and Kale is above average but nothing special to the likes of Frieza, Toppo, Vegeta, Goku, or Jiren. Her abilities allowed her to take many people by surprise, but once they figured her out even the low tier Pride Troopers could take her out. Jiren, Dyspo, and Toppo didn't even need to lend a hand. Frieza wasn't impressed even after her surprise attack. She's not very strong. Kefla, a fusion of an average and slightly above average fighter was most likely stronger than Frieza, Toppo, Vegeta (pre-limit break), & Goku but probably not by much so two of them at once could likely take her out without much problem. The fusion just allowed her to essentially hang with the big boys when separately they didn't stand a chance.
Now for Gohan. If he never stopped training, he'd be far ahead of Goku and Vegeta by the time of BoG (unless Goku's training style is just that good). They would need Whis' training to catch up with him.
Now I'll strictly use the manga to prove Whis' training isn't as good as you think it is. In the Tournament of Destroyers Goku, Piccolo, then Vegeta all fight Frost. Frost isn't much to Goku or Vegeta, but in order to decisively defeat him they both use Super Saiyan, meaning that even after their training with Whis, Frost's final form is dangerous to their base forms. That could mean he's stronger, equal, or at least close enough to give them some trouble. When Piccolo fought this same Frost he pushed him into a battle on equal terms (manga). Piccolo needed to use much more stamina to do so and in the end would eventually lose, but the point is it was an equally contested fight. Frost still resorted to using poison to end the match as quick as possible. This means that barring stamina issues, Piccolo at this point could give trouble to the base power of Goku and Vegeta, enough trouble to force them into SSJ even after Whis' training. That's not much different than the Buu saga and Piccolo only does Earth based training so even that was enough to stay competitive with Goku and Vegeta.
So if we take all that and apply it to Gohan, you can see how he could keep up or even surpass Goku and Vegeta with constant gravity room training. We don't exactly know the multiplier of Gohan's Ultimate state, but we do know that it's not a set multiplier, meaning that by breaking his limits Gohan can get much much stronger without the need for new transformations. His ultimate state is like a transformation that keeps evolving so while Goku and Vegeta need new forms, Gohan just has to break through his current limits.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-