For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Post by Tai Lung » Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:11 am

BWri wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:37 am
Lord Beerus wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:00 am
Toei have a terrible habit of dangling the carrot when it comes to Gohan and his progression as a martial artist.

The most notorious case being after the events of the Resurrection F arc where Gohan tells Piccolo he wants him to train him again so that he can be strong enough to protect his family should shit hit the fan again. They even go the extra mile and show Gohan and Piccolo training in Epinions 30. What does that lead to? Nothing. And just to twist the knife even further, they fucking teased the idea of Gohan show off he newly found strength by fighting Universe 6 in the Beerus/Champa tournament. Fast forward several dozen episodes, and he does nothing constructive in the plot, and has given up fighting again.

Then the Tournament Of Power became a thing, suddenly spike in strength out of convenience (again) and leaves this wonderful tease.

I suppose my biggest issue with Gohan is that the story constantly gets your hopes up high for something from the character -- whether it's building his personality or strength -- and doesn't really follow though with it in satisfactory fashion, or at all.
I believe this is mainly an issue of Toei vs. Toriyama. Toei seems to want to do something major with Gohan and Krillin (at least a few of the writers do) whereas Toriyama's outline doesn't really have anything for them. You couple that with several different TV writers and we get the problems you outlined.

Though I'm not the biggest fan of the manga after the ToP, I have to give Toyotaro credit on his consistency with Gohan's training.
although it has nothing to do with the subject ...
that is really relative and would only be partly true with the consistency in the continuity of the training but not in the results.

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Re: For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Post by BWri » Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:14 am

Dbzfan94 wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:07 pm
I definitely second the Great Saiyaman minus cape and helmet. His look when he fought Dabura may be my favorite look for Gohan in the whole series.
It's one of my favorite fights in that arc along with one of my favorite moments. I was high on Gohan at the time and Dabura was really cool too.
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Re: For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Post by BWri » Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:18 am

Tai Lung wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:11 am
although it has nothing to do with the subject ...
that is really relative and would only be partly true with the consistency in the continuity of the training but not in the results.
Are you saying you don't think Gohan's power boost in the manga is consistent with the training that was shown?
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Re: For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Post by BWri » Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:36 am

Kokonoe wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:38 pm
Kagari wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:17 pm
Focusing on F when it's literally 10 episodes of a 131 episode series - of which Gohan had a major role for its biggest arc (which takes up half of said series) seems a bit silly IMO.

And people keep latching on that line where he talks about wanting an ultimate form - look. He was talking about HIS Ultimate form. He wants to continue to evolve there, which he did, instead of relying on Super Saiyan forms. Even the manga brings it up. Why else call it is "Ultimate" form if he replaces it with something else? Would ruin the point.
In a show that's based on transformations, having a "Ultimate form" is terrible writing. It only made sense when you end the series with it, but even in that regard with Z Toriyama changed his mind and made Goku the hero so he was no longer the ultimate warrior.

Sure Toriyama never planned on creating more of this series, but I think it's fine for him to get something to evolve his powers cause him being at max power all the time makes him the storytelling not work in his favor cause all they can say is "oh he hits harder now". Transformations is what keeps the other two Saiyans at peak fighting.

And I don't think it's silly, that's one of his showings and it made him look absolutely pathetic. It still pisses me off to this day that they even did that scene.
I think Gohan not relying on transformations like Goku and Vegeta makes sense in a lot of ways both thematically and for the sake of consistency. Thematically, it separates him from the ilk of Saiyan like Goku and Vegeta, but it also establishes a sort of pairing in the group. Goku & Vegeta pair up as the leads who rely more and more on transformations, the humans rely on tricks and cleverness, & Androids have infinite energy, whereas Gohan and Piccolo continue to evolve their selves which is their ultimate forms.

I picked up on this vibe when Piccolo trained Gohan in Ep. 88. Gohan does this elaborate yell and transformation to go to SSJ2, but Piccolo just mildly flared up his ki without a sound and they proceed to have a battle on equal footing with Gohan having a small edge in power and Piccolo having a strategic edge. Gohan's Ultimate form seems to be striving for this minimalistic approach.

I like the consistency but feel more can be done with Ultimate Gohan just by outlining the details of what the state can do and how it can evolve.
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Re: For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Post by Tai Lung » Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:38 am

BWri wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:18 am
Tai Lung wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:11 am
although it has nothing to do with the subject ...
that is really relative and would only be partly true with the consistency in the continuity of the training but not in the results.
Are you saying you don't think Gohan's power boost in the manga is consistent with the training that was shown?
if I'm saying that
in the manga there was only more consistency in the fact that gohan did not abondanaba the training so often to do something else and then go back to training as 2 times in the series but that is because gohan did not do anything in the whole manga and that was seen in his training was terribly little in comparison in the anime when gohan face to lavender or had his chapters protagonist with jako etc.
it is debatable if there was a better balance in the manga with his training given his participation.
but if I compare results it is better that I get to god level comparable to dyspo, one of more strongers of Team U11's due to the piccolo mention "gohan hiding more power"
in the manga he overcomes the power of the SSB a nonsense and picoolo says that gohan got that power at that very moment by and so the previous consistency is lost.

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Re: For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Post by BWri » Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:32 am

Tai Lung wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:38 am
BWri wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:18 am
Tai Lung wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:11 am
although it has nothing to do with the subject ...
that is really relative and would only be partly true with the consistency in the continuity of the training but not in the results.
Are you saying you don't think Gohan's power boost in the manga is consistent with the training that was shown?
if I'm saying that
in the manga there was only more consistency in the fact that gohan did not abondanaba the training so often to do something else and then go back to training as 2 times in the series but that is because gohan did not do anything in the whole manga and that was seen in his training was terribly little in comparison in the anime when gohan face to lavender or had his chapters protagonist with jako etc.
it is debatable if there was a better balance in the manga with his training given his participation.
but if I compare results it is better that I get to god level comparable to dyspo, one of more strongers of Team U11's due to the piccolo mention "gohan hiding more power"
in the manga he overcomes the power of the SSB a nonsense and picoolo says that gohan got that power at that very moment by and so the previous consistency is lost.
I see what you mean. Thanks for clarifying. Hmmm ... not sure I agree. His power does jump up considerably, but I'm not convinced that Kefla is as strong as her anime counterpart and even if she was, I think it makes sense that Gohan could get as strong as her. (I'm not much of a Gohan fan btw)

To start, this is a Gohan who's been training for a long time now in the background. If you take the Buu saga and extrapolate that, I think it does make sense for Gohan to get as strong as a God with intense gravity based training. Buu saga Gohan (climax) was already far ahead of Vegeta and there's overwhelming evidence that he was far ahead of Goku as well. Even if his power dipped, it likely wouldn't take him long to reattain his former level and build upon that, and with his haxx potential and the wonky power scaling of modern day, I think it makes a lot of sense for Gohan to be possibly the 3rd or 4th strongest on Universe 7, not even all too far from Goku and Vegeta.

"That very moment" just means that Gohan found a way to access a large amount of his total potential in a sudden powerup, which is par for the course for all the main Saiyans. It's similar to what Goku and Vegeta were doing, except they utilized transformations while Gohan doesn't need one. It's not well explained, but I believe their bodies have to evolve to accommodate all the raw power they possess. Even though Gohan is in his "Ultimate" state, its likely his body also has to adapt to his well of power and it managed to do that while he was fighting Kefla. Black was similar, even when he didn't have a transformation.
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Re: For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Post by Tai Lung » Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:41 pm

BWri wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:32 am
Tai Lung wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:38 am
BWri wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:18 am

Are you saying you don't think Gohan's power boost in the manga is consistent with the training that was shown?
if I'm saying that
in the manga there was only more consistency in the fact that gohan did not abondanaba the training so often to do something else and then go back to training as 2 times in the series but that is because gohan did not do anything in the whole manga and that was seen in his training was terribly little in comparison in the anime when gohan face to lavender or had his chapters protagonist with jako etc.
it is debatable if there was a better balance in the manga with his training given his participation.
but if I compare results it is better that I get to god level comparable to dyspo, one of more strongers of Team U11's due to the piccolo mention "gohan hiding more power"
in the manga he overcomes the power of the SSB a nonsense and picoolo says that gohan got that power at that very moment by and so the previous consistency is lost.
I see what you mean. Thanks for clarifying. Hmmm ... not sure I agree. His power does jump up considerably, but I'm not convinced that Kefla is as strong as her anime counterpart and even if she was, I think it makes sense that Gohan could get as strong as her. (I'm not much of a Gohan fan btw)

To start, this is a Gohan who's been training for a long time now in the background. If you take the Buu saga and extrapolate that, I think it does make sense for Gohan to get as strong as a God with intense gravity based training. Buu saga Gohan (climax) was already far ahead of Vegeta and there's overwhelming evidence that he was far ahead of Goku as well. Even if his power dipped, it likely wouldn't take him long to reattain his former level and build upon that, and with his haxx potential and the wonky power scaling of modern day, I think it makes a lot of sense for Gohan to be possibly the 3rd or 4th strongest on Universe 7, not even all too far from Goku and Vegeta.

"That very moment" just means that Gohan found a way to access a large amount of his total potential in a sudden powerup, which is par for the course for all the main Saiyans. It's similar to what Goku and Vegeta were doing, except they utilized transformations while Gohan doesn't need one. It's not well explained, but I believe their bodies have to evolve to accommodate all the raw power they possess. Even though Gohan is in his "Ultimate" state, its likely his body also has to adapt to his well of power and it managed to do that while he was fighting Kefla. Black was similar, even when he didn't have a transformation.
Vados, Champa and Kaserhal ensure that Kefla is more powerful than Kale (who defeated 4 universes and beat Golden Frieza)
and the angel affirms that nobody in the tournament would be able to beat her "remember that she saw the fight of goku SSB 100% vs toppo" so that except for jiren, kefla could defeat all of them.
kefla should not exist in the manga because his excessive power makes his defeat anticlimactic and the power of gohan a nonsense.
you would be assuming .. the events in fnf happened anyway in the manga so their weakening by not training still counts.
one thing is that gohan is god level in the anime, has that power, enough to face dyspo and because of its potential has some coherence but in the manga it is understood that gohan surpasses the power of a SSB 100% and for goku or vegeta who trained with an angel and have god ki that gohan equal or surpass with a simple gravity training on earth is a bad joke.
Goku or jiren had to defeat kefla and gohan defeat to toppo weakened would make more sense like that.

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Re: For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Post by BWri » Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:52 am

Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:41 pm
I'll go over each of your points one by one and tell you where I disagree.
Vados, Champa and Kaserhal ensure that Kefla is more powerful than Kale (who defeated 4 universes and beat Golden Frieza)
I don't think Kale actually beat Frieza. She did damage to him, yes, but he wasn't shaken by her power at all and by the end of her barrage didn't sustain heavy damage. Right after, Goku even toys with her in SSB while Frieza tells him to butt out of the fight and kicks him away. Frieza even says he wasn't taking the fight seriously on page 44 of chapter 37. Kale does continue to powerup and on her rampage does nearly eliminate Toppo and Vegeta, but it appears its only because she caught them by surprise just like with Frieza earlier. Vegeta even later says that her attacks catch you by surprise at first but are easy to figure out, which is why the lower tier Pride Troopers were able to contain and decimate her.
and the angel affirms that nobody in the tournament would be able to beat her "remember that she saw the fight of goku SSB 100% vs toppo" so that except for jiren, kefla could defeat all of them. kefla should not exist in the manga because his excessive power makes his defeat anticlimactic and the power of gohan a nonsense.
Kefla's not that strong. She's strong but you have to keep in mind when she fused Kale's power was already dropping because she was at her limit and injured. And a normal fusion of Kale, who's likely not as strong as Frieza and Califla who is no where near Frieza would likely only result in someone who's not much stronger than Frieza (depending on how strong Califla actually is). That's why I don't think manga Kefla is even close to as strong as the anime version. Anime version is much stronger with proper feats and statements directly taking on the likes of UI Omen Goku and having an amplified strike compared directly to the Spirit Bomb formed by U7.

In the manga Vados just says she "may be unmatched on this battlefield" a statement that leaves much doubt. Even if she is comparing to Goku vs Toppo from the Exhibition, here they should be stronger, and Frieza is arguably on their level, so yeah she may be stronger than them at that time but who's to say by how much.
you would be assuming .. the events in fnf happened anyway in the manga so their weakening by not training still counts.
Yes, and my statement mentioned that, but also mentioned that it wouldn't take long for Gohan to gain his old power back with intense training, especially if he was using the gravity room like was shown in the manga. From there he'd just build upon that and with his potential he could easily close the gap between himself and the two Saiyan leads.
one thing is that gohan is god level in the anime, has that power, enough to face dyspo and because of its potential has some coherence but in the manga it is understood that gohan surpasses the power of a SSB 100% and for goku or vegeta who trained with an angel and have god ki that gohan equal or surpass with a simple gravity training on earth is a bad joke.
I have to agree that it is bad writing, but you have to understand that god training is already a joke. It was made a joke in FnF when Frieza trained four months on his own with someone weaker than a Ginyu and got stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta. It further became a joke with Goku being forced to use SSG on SSJ2 Trunks.

God training is not very powerful in the grand scheme of things, since you can easily match these characters without it. Only characters trained by gods seem to be Toppo, Goku, and Vegeta and they have a hard time with mortals in the anime and manga throughout the ToP. Its just a shortcut that helped Goku and Vegeta break through their Buu saga limits. God ki itself doesn't grant power, only indicates status.

So a rusty Gohan who already started much stronger than Goku and Vegeta could easily surpass them even up to SSB with only a gravity chamber and a serious daily training regiment. He'd only need to first reattain his Ultimate state and evolve his power from there.

Keep in mind that Vegeta reached SBG Goku in only six months. Gohan with his haxx potential could easily do it faster.
Goku or jiren had to defeat kefla and gohan defeat to toppo weakened would make more sense like that.
I see what you are saying. I would agree if this were the anime, but I just don't think that Kefla in the manga is as strong as Jiren or MUI Goku. I get the feeling that a team of Frieza and Toppo could offer her a really good fight and likely stalemate her or defeat her outright.

I overall agree that the scaling for Gohan isn't close to perfect, but it makes some sense due to how Toyotaro has been building it and how unbalanced the power scale already is for Super (thanks Frieza, Jiren, & pointless return of SSJ :roll: ). That's why I think that the writing for Gohan's power is at least more consistent than the anime. They don't even have Gohan use the RoSaT in those 2 days, they just jump him to god tier in less than a day. If we go by that logic, then manga Gohan should be stronger than Jiren since he's always training now.
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Re: For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Post by Tai Lung » Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:45 pm

BWri wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:52 am
I don't think Kale actually beat Frieza. She did damage to him, yes, but he wasn't shaken by her power at all and by the end of her barrage didn't sustain heavy damage. Right after, Goku even toys with her in SSB while Frieza tells him to butt out of the fight and kicks him away. Frieza even says he wasn't taking the fight seriously on page 44 of chapter 37. Kale does continue to powerup and on her rampage does nearly eliminate Toppo and Vegeta, but it appears its only because she caught them by surprise just like with Frieza earlier. Vegeta even later says that her attacks catch you by surprise at first but are easy to figure out, which is why the lower tier Pride Troopers were able to contain and decimate her.
kale makes Frieza bleed.
kale makes Goku SSB back a little bit 100%
the beating that kale gives him already denies that argument so frieza can not prove it, goku can feel the KI and knows very well that he could not with kale, that's why he helps him, really frieza doesn't wants to get help from goku.
BWri wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:52 am
Kefla's not that strong. She's strong but you have to keep in mind when she fused Kale's power was already dropping because she was at her limit and injured. And a normal fusion of Kale, who's likely not as strong as Frieza and Califla who is no where near Frieza would likely only result in someone who's not much stronger than Frieza (depending on how strong Califla actually is). That's why I don't think manga Kefla is even close to as strong as the anime version. Anime version is much stronger with proper feats and statements directly taking on the likes of UI Omen Goku and having an amplified strike compared directly to the Spirit Bomb formed by U7.

In the manga Vados just says she "may be unmatched on this battlefield" a statement that leaves much doubt. Even if she is comparing to Goku vs Toppo from the Exhibition, here they should be stronger, and Frieza is arguably on their level, so yeah she may be stronger than them at that time but who's to say by how much..
that excuse has no validity because neither vados nor champa say that, also which is never proven .. it is more this is denied 2 times the fusion heals the wounds and the loss of energy kefla does not seem to be tired and has no injury, the same case with zamasu in the manga was strong enough to fight with the 100% ssjB, he did not suffer loss of energy.

is still the argument of the angel who saw the fight of goku blue 100% vs toppo, and later Golden frieza vs kale or Vegeta VS Toppo
BWri wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:52 am
Yes, and my statement mentioned that, but also mentioned that it wouldn't take long for Gohan to gain his old power back with intense training, especially if he was using the gravity room like was shown in the manga. From there he'd just build upon that and with his potential he could easily close the gap between himself and the two Saiyan leads..
Vegeta has been training in the gravity room for years and is not accomplishing anything like that
they are still a very short time and in the zamasu arc it is made clear that he still had not recovered because that does not make sense because that does not make sense.
BWri wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:52 am
I have to agree that it is bad writing, but you have to understand that god training is already a joke. It was made a joke in FnF when Frieza trained four months on his own with someone weaker than a Ginyu and got stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta. It further became a joke with Goku being forced to use SSG on SSJ2 Trunks.

God training is not very powerful in the grand scheme of things, since you can easily match these characters without it. Only characters trained by gods seem to be Toppo, Goku, and Vegeta and they have a hard time with mortals in the anime and manga throughout the ToP. Its just a shortcut that helped Goku and Vegeta break through their Buu saga limits. God ki itself doesn't grant power, only indicates status.

So a rusty Gohan who already started much stronger than Goku and Vegeta could easily surpass them even up to SSB with only a gravity chamber and a serious daily training regiment. He'd only need to first reattain his Ultimate state and evolve his power from there.

Keep in mind that Vegeta reached SBG Goku in only six months. Gohan with his haxx potential could easily do it faster.
it has been said that it is of a privileged race in addition to evolution and that it was born with its power anyway it is still relevant in later battles of gohan it is not saying anything now out of the high potential that it had but that to what it was seen is a bad joke
if I consider what gohan vs kefla a more without sense aberration than all that, at the level of roshi vs jiren
Vegeta receives the guidance of whis besides getting the god ki is not comparable to a simple gravity training on earth.
frieza need a transformation to equalize with they.
in the anime trunks need a transformation to equalize.
and in the manga I do not reach that level although its transformation in ssj2 is stronger.
really not, is not the fic of gohan blanco.
because in any case with a year of training in the room of time would have reached that level in cell games.
Gohan had to recover first and for the zamasu arc he had not done it yet.
that reaches the level of the god red is enough, that it exceeds the powers of goku and vegeta is already a nonsense for time and how he trained.
BWri wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:52 am

I see what you are saying. I would agree if this were the anime, but I just don't think that Kefla in the manga is as strong as Jiren or MUI Goku. I get the feeling that a team of Frieza and Toppo could offer her a really good fight and likely stalemate her or defeat her outright.

I overall agree that the scaling for Gohan isn't close to perfect, but it makes some sense due to how Toyotaro has been building it and how unbalanced the power scale already is for Super (thanks Frieza, Jiren, & pointless return of SSJ :roll: ). That's why I think that the writing for Gohan's power is at least more consistent than the anime. They don't even have Gohan use the RoSaT in those 2 days, they just jump him to god tier in less than a day. If we go by that logic, then manga Gohan should be stronger than Jiren since he's always training now.
I already explained why kefla is stronger than all the characters without counting jiren
kale alone almost takes them out, being vegeta is transformed in SSB. Here it does not count lowering the guard.
I keep thinking the same thing is more consistent in the constancy but not in the final result.

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Re: For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Post by emperior » Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:09 am

Unpopular opinion here, but I actually liked how Super handled Gohan.

Yes, he was out of shape in RoF, couldn’t participate in the U6 tournament for plot reasons, was left out of Future Trunks’ arc for yet another plot reason (let’s be frank, Gohan would have completely changed the narrative in both arcs) but he was actually very well done in the Tournament of Power. Like, especially very well done.
I don’t get what people were expecting out of him during the tournament. If he won the whole thing, that would have actually been a little disappointing because it would have been too soon for Gohan to shine that much. Instead, he finally got back his powers and went even beyond what his full power was in Z. He overcame his arrogance and became a true warrior, U7’s leader respected by Freeza too, and even when his battles resulted in universes being erased he didn’t hesitate and in the end he decided to take Dyspo out with himself (and let’s not forget that Dyspo was so strong not even teaming up with Golden Freeza was helping much).

Resurrection F hasn’t “ruined” Gohan’s character at all for me. Instead, that’s actually a new low for Gohan after he got out of shape between Cell and Buu (this time more justified considering Goku is alive), and a new chance for him to spring back up to the top or at least keep in shape. I would even argue that Gohan’s return to form during the tournament was actually more satisfying due to how weak and out of shape he looked during the events of Freeza’s revenge.

Now, what’s to be seen is what will be done with him in the future. If Gohan keeps being retired from the main stories after what he did in the ToP, THAT would be disappointing. Unlike many others, what actually hyped me from his line in Episode #90 was that he actually wanted to improve alongside Goku (as for the form, Gohan was referring to his ultimate one which is already perfect as it is). I really hope that Gohan will keep being relevant in the future, until the day he can actually go back to being the “hero” as he was during the Cell Games and, for a brief moment, in the Buu arc.
His potential keeps being mentioned and the way he improved for the tournament is proof that his potential is still there and higher than basically everyone else’s. Which is always a nice thing, because it can be used as the excuse as to why Gohan can surpass his father again in the future.

One thing I would definitely change in Super about Gohan is his gi. I don’t like him wearing his father’s clothes as the reason why he wanted those clothes in the first place is no longer there considering Goku is now alive.
Instead, I would prefer it if Gohan could use the gi he trained in before the Budokai Tenkaichi back during early Buu arc, or the Great Saiyaman outfit without the cape and helmet, so that he can distinguish himself from his father and the other disciples of Roshi (or from Piccolo in the manga).
The purple gi with orange belt would be best in my opinion, as it feels like it pays homage to both Piccolo and Goku, who are both Gohan’s martial arts masters.
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Re: For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Post by BWri » Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:02 am

Tai Lung wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:45 pm
kale makes Frieza bleed.
After Kale's surprise attack is done Frieza is smiling, laughing to himself that there are so many new forms of Super Saiyan. Frieza's not the sort of character to smile or laugh when he knows he's outmatched. He simply doesn't fear Kale even though she spent the last 15 or so panels beating him up. And more importantly, he is undamaged aside from a few superficial scuff marks.
kale makes Goku SSB back a little bit 100%
Goku never backs down in this fight. At the last minute, she surprises him because her power keeps rising and breaks through his guard because he didn't expect her to be so strong, but he never moves from his spot even under a barrage of her punches. Frieza's kick is what moves him.
the beating that kale gives him already denies that argument so frieza can not prove it,
Wasn't much of a beating if Frieza is still laughing about it afterwards.
goku can feel the KI and knows very well that he could not with kale, that's why he helps him, really frieza doesn't wants to get help from goku.
That's not explicit. Only Roshi was worried about Frieza, and so he asked him to help Frieza. It could've even been the perfect excuse Goku needed to interfere in the fight because he wanted to.
BWri wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:52 am
Kefla's not that strong. She's strong but you have to keep in mind when she fused Kale's power was already dropping because she was at her limit and injured. And a normal fusion of Kale, who's likely not as strong as Frieza and Califla who is no where near Frieza would likely only result in someone who's not much stronger than Frieza (depending on how strong Califla actually is). That's why I don't think manga Kefla is even close to as strong as the anime version. Anime version is much stronger with proper feats and statements directly taking on the likes of UI Omen Goku and having an amplified strike compared directly to the Spirit Bomb formed by U7.

In the manga Vados just says she "may be unmatched on this battlefield" a statement that leaves much doubt. Even if she is comparing to Goku vs Toppo from the Exhibition, here they should be stronger, and Frieza is arguably on their level, so yeah she may be stronger than them at that time but who's to say by how much..
that excuse has no validity because neither vados nor champa say that, also which is never proven

Doesn't matter if Vados or Champa didn't say it. They don't have to say something for it to be true. They don't say a lot of things.
.. it is more this is denied 2 times the fusion heals the wounds and the loss of energy kefla does not seem to be tired and has no injury, the same case with zamasu in the manga was strong enough to fight with the 100% ssjB, he did not suffer loss of energy.
That could be true, and that might not be true. I don't remember any explicitly saying that fusion heals you. I also don't remember anyone taking the same level of damage that Kale and Kefla did before using the Potara. If Zamasu is the only one, well, he's immortal.
is still the argument of the angel who saw the fight of goku blue 100% vs toppo, and later Golden frieza vs kale or Vegeta VS Toppo
It's not a strong argument. Remember, In the manga Vados just says she "may be unmatched on this battlefield"
BWri wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:52 am
Yes, and my statement mentioned that, but also mentioned that it wouldn't take long for Gohan to gain his old power back with intense training, especially if he was using the gravity room like was shown in the manga. From there he'd just build upon that and with his potential he could easily close the gap between himself and the two Saiyan leads..
Vegeta has been training in the gravity room for years and is not accomplishing anything like that
they are still a very short time and in the zamasu arc it is made clear that he still had not recovered because that does not make sense because that does not make sense.
Vegeta's potential is nowhere near Gohan's. It took him 7 years after the Cell saga to get stronger than SSJ2 Gohan from the Cell fight. Gohan even ended the Buu arc astronomically stronger than Vegeta. It wasn't even close. And we now see that any level of training is still viable in the series, even extreme gravity and normal Earth gravity. After all, in the anime Gohan himself gained his Ultimate state and got to God tier with two days of Earth training and #17's training is all in normal earth gravity and he's between SSJ3 and SSB. What's more, Goku and Whis still use gravity room training occasionally.
it has been said that it is of a privileged race in addition to evolution and that it was born with its power anyway it is still relevant in later battles of gohan it is not saying anything now out of the high potential that it had but that to what it was seen is a bad joke
if I consider what gohan vs kefla a more without sense aberration than all that, at the level of roshi vs jiren
Gohan is a consistent aberration though, he always has huge power spikes. This one is no less ridiculous than going from weaker than his SSJ2 form 7 years prior in the Buu saga to getting stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks and Super Buu in less than a week. It's no less ridiculous than him losing so much power at the start of Super that many people considered him weaker than the start of the Buu saga. He just gains and loses an extreme amount of power over and over again, that's his thing.
Vegeta receives the guidance of whis besides getting the god ki is not comparable to a simple gravity training on earth.
Whis' training is great, but it's not needed to great even stronger than the GoDs. Or does Jiren not exist? I already said Whis' training was great for allowing Goku and Vegeta to break past their Buu saga limits, but its not necessary for reaching GoD levels. At the end of the Buu saga, Gohan was closer than anyone to reaching GoD PL. If he never stopped training, he would've eventually gotten there most likely. Vegeta talks about his potential even in the Tournament of Destroyers arc.
frieza need a transformation to equalize with they.
Yeah, but he did it in only four months and the transformation is an extension of his own potential.
in the anime trunks need a transformation to equalize.
Yeah and he wasn't even trained by Whis. That goes against your point doesn't it? "Vegeta receives the guidance of whis besides getting the god ki is not comparable to a simple gravity training on earth." Trunks doesn't even have a gravity chamber. He trains in normal Earth gravity and yet he gets as strong as Goku and Vegeta in your words.
and in the manga I do not reach that level although its transformation in ssj2 is stronger.
really not, is not the fic of gohan blanco.
:lol: Gohan Blanco and El Hermano still make me laugh, sorry. SSJ2 is sort of fluid in both the anime and manga. Trunks might have a FP variant of it like Goku and Gohan with SSJ1 in the Cell games.
because in any case with a year of training in the room of time would have reached that level in cell games.
What level?
Gohan had to recover first and for the zamasu arc he had not done it yet.
Anime or manga? In the anime, I don't think he started training hard until the end of the arc, at least it seemed like he was out of shape until the end.
that reaches the level of the god red is enough, that it exceeds the powers of goku and vegeta is already a nonsense for time and how he trained.
It's fine. None of this makes sense anymore. Gohan is at least known to gain and lose extreme amounts of power all the time. In his first appearance in the show as a small child he started out 4x stronger than the Hero and Villain of the previous arc. I really don't care if he gets extreme power boosts, because he's always gotten them.
I already explained why kefla is stronger than all the characters without counting jiren
kale alone almost takes them out, being vegeta is transformed in SSB. Here it does not count lowering the guard.
I keep thinking the same thing is more consistent in the constancy but not in the final result.
Caulifla is average at best and Kale is above average but nothing special to the likes of Frieza, Toppo, Vegeta, Goku, or Jiren. Her abilities allowed her to take many people by surprise, but once they figured her out even the low tier Pride Troopers could take her out. Jiren, Dyspo, and Toppo didn't even need to lend a hand. Frieza wasn't impressed even after her surprise attack. She's not very strong. Kefla, a fusion of an average and slightly above average fighter was most likely stronger than Frieza, Toppo, Vegeta (pre-limit break), & Goku but probably not by much so two of them at once could likely take her out without much problem. The fusion just allowed her to essentially hang with the big boys when separately they didn't stand a chance.

Now for Gohan. If he never stopped training, he'd be far ahead of Goku and Vegeta by the time of BoG (unless Goku's training style is just that good). They would need Whis' training to catch up with him.

Now I'll strictly use the manga to prove Whis' training isn't as good as you think it is. In the Tournament of Destroyers Goku, Piccolo, then Vegeta all fight Frost. Frost isn't much to Goku or Vegeta, but in order to decisively defeat him they both use Super Saiyan, meaning that even after their training with Whis, Frost's final form is dangerous to their base forms. That could mean he's stronger, equal, or at least close enough to give them some trouble. When Piccolo fought this same Frost he pushed him into a battle on equal terms (manga). Piccolo needed to use much more stamina to do so and in the end would eventually lose, but the point is it was an equally contested fight. Frost still resorted to using poison to end the match as quick as possible. This means that barring stamina issues, Piccolo at this point could give trouble to the base power of Goku and Vegeta, enough trouble to force them into SSJ even after Whis' training. That's not much different than the Buu saga and Piccolo only does Earth based training so even that was enough to stay competitive with Goku and Vegeta.

So if we take all that and apply it to Gohan, you can see how he could keep up or even surpass Goku and Vegeta with constant gravity room training. We don't exactly know the multiplier of Gohan's Ultimate state, but we do know that it's not a set multiplier, meaning that by breaking his limits Gohan can get much much stronger without the need for new transformations. His ultimate state is like a transformation that keeps evolving so while Goku and Vegeta need new forms, Gohan just has to break through his current limits.
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Re: For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Post by Tai Lung » Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:29 pm

One last comment so as not to divert the subject
BWri wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:02 am
After Kale's surprise attack is done Frieza is smiling, laughing to himself that there are so many new forms of Super Saiyan. Frieza's not the sort of character to smile or laugh when he knows he's outmatched. He simply doesn't fear Kale even though she spent the last 15 or so panels beating him up. And more importantly, he is undamaged aside from a few superficial scuff marks.

Goku never backs down in this fight. At the last minute, she surprises him because her power keeps rising and breaks through his guard because he didn't expect her to be so strong, but he never moves from his spot even under a barrage of her punches. Frieza's kick is what moves him.

the beating that kale gives him already denies that argument so frieza can not prove it,
Wasn't much of a beating if Frieza is still laughing about it afterwards.
Again Frieza should have proved that theory, which he does not do in addition to trusting himself too much to make his word doubt.
the surprise to goku is enough ... is Goku SSB 100%
frieza feels humiliated that goku wants to help him, "as in namek" also frieza trust too much in his power and that always gives him problems.
BWri wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:02 am
That's not explicit. Only Roshi was worried about Frieza, and so he asked him to help Frieza. It could've even been the perfect excuse Goku needed to interfere in the fight because he wanted to..
maybe but goku does not deny this ... even then he tells him that he helps him because he was in trouble
I doubt it much both goku and frieza let went to kale.
BWri wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:02 am
Doesn't matter if Vados or Champa didn't say it. They don't have to say something for it to be true. They don't say a lot of things.
but they already deny it when they believe that kefla can beat the majority without taking fatigue into account.
BWri wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:02 am
That could be true, and that might not be true. I don't remember any explicitly saying that fusion heals you. I also don't remember anyone taking the same level of damage that Kale and Kefla did before using the Potara. If Zamasu is the only one, well, he's immortal.
Kefla has no injuries or visible fatigue and she is not immortal.
Goku and Vegeta merge herdios they also have no injuries or visible wounds.
Besides it does not matter if zamasu is immortal that does not restore the energy by fatigue.
BWri wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:02 am
It's not a strong argument. Remember, In the manga Vados just says she "may be unmatched on this battlefield".
ok but she had already seen several opponents in the tournament fight so it is relevant if we talk about the level.
BWri wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:52 am
Vegeta's potential is nowhere near Gohan's. It took him 7 years after the Cell saga to get stronger than SSJ2 Gohan from the Cell fight. Gohan even ended the Buu arc astronomically stronger than Vegeta. It wasn't even close. And we now see that any level of training is still viable in the series, even extreme gravity and normal Earth gravity. After all, in the anime Gohan himself gained his Ultimate state and got to God tier with two days of Earth training and #17's training is all in normal earth gravity and he's between SSJ3 and SSB. What's more, Goku and Whis still use gravity room training occasionally.".
to gohan was unlocked the very different power
There is no proof that I would have achieved that by training and I most certainly would not have done it. because I never achieve something like this before it increased its power that is sure but never at that level. at least it does not justify having overcome his father who was already far away.
yes but 17 did not reach the level of ssj and gohan should not either.
BWri wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:52 am
Gohan is a consistent aberration though, he always has huge power spikes. This one is no less ridiculous than going from weaker than his SSJ2 form 7 years prior in the Buu saga to getting stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks and Super Buu in less than a week. It's no less ridiculous than him losing so much power at the start of Super that many people considered him weaker than the start of the Buu saga. He just gains and loses an extreme amount of power over and over again, that's his thing.".
is a fair point but if it is not relevant as before ... so much power is not justified unlike frieza that is still
BWri wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:52 am
Whis' training is great, but it's not needed to great even stronger than the GoDs. Or does Jiren not exist? I already said Whis' training was great for allowing Goku and Vegeta to break past their Buu saga limits, but its not necessary for reaching GoD levels. At the end of the Buu saga, Gohan was closer than anyone to reaching GoD PL. If he never stopped training, he would've eventually gotten there most likely. Vegeta talks about his potential even in the Tournament of Destroyers arc.
"characters from other universes" I think that is the point of BofG there is someone stronger outside ... and as we do not know them we can not say that their level is not coherent at least not with jiren that was established that has more than 1000 old years and surpasses the gods.
BWri wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:52 am
Yeah, but he did it in only four months and the transformation is an extension of his own potential..
even with its new transformation frieza can not overcome the ssb ..
BWri wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:52 am
Yeah and he wasn't even trained by Whis. That goes against your point doesn't it? "Vegeta receives the guidance of whis besides getting the god ki is not comparable to a simple gravity training on earth." Trunks doesn't even have a gravity chamber. He trains in normal Earth gravity and yet he gets as strong as Goku and Vegeta in your words..
but he trains with vegeta before that ... and he also can not overcome his father level.
with gohan it was enough the god level plus ... it's stupid
BWri wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:52 am
Anime or manga? In the anime, I don't think he started training hard until the end of the arc, at least it seemed like he was out of shape until the end.
manga extra
BWri wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:52 am
Caulifla is average at best and Kale is above average but nothing special to the likes of Frieza, Toppo, Vegeta, Goku, or Jiren. Her abilities allowed her to take many people by surprise, but once they figured her out even the low tier Pride Troopers could take her out. Jiren, Dyspo, and Toppo didn't even need to lend a hand. Frieza wasn't impressed even after her surprise attack. She's not very strong. Kefla, a fusion of an average and slightly above average fighter was most likely stronger than Frieza, Toppo, Vegeta (pre-limit break), & Goku but probably not by much so two of them at once could likely take her out without much problem. The fusion just allowed her to essentially hang with the big boys when separately they didn't stand a chance.

Now for Gohan. If he never stopped training, he'd be far ahead of Goku and Vegeta by the time of BoG (unless Goku's training style is just that good). They would need Whis' training to catch up with him.

Now I'll strictly use the manga to prove Whis' training isn't as good as you think it is. In the Tournament of Destroyers Goku, Piccolo, then Vegeta all fight Frost. Frost isn't much to Goku or Vegeta, but in order to decisively defeat him they both use Super Saiyan, meaning that even after their training with Whis, Frost's final form is dangerous to their base forms. That could mean he's stronger, equal, or at least close enough to give them some trouble. When Piccolo fought this same Frost he pushed him into a battle on equal terms (manga). Piccolo needed to use much more stamina to do so and in the end would eventually lose, but the point is it was an equally contested fight. Frost still resorted to using poison to end the match as quick as possible. This means that barring stamina issues, Piccolo at this point could give trouble to the base power of Goku and Vegeta, enough trouble to force them into SSJ even after Whis' training. That's not much different than the Buu saga and Piccolo only does Earth based training so even that was enough to stay competitive with Goku and Vegeta.

So if we take all that and apply it to Gohan, you can see how he could keep up or even surpass Goku and Vegeta with constant gravity room training. We don't exactly know the multiplier of Gohan's Ultimate state, but we do know that it's not a set multiplier, meaning that by breaking his limits Gohan can get much much stronger without the need for new transformations. His ultimate state is like a transformation that keeps evolving so while Goku and Vegeta need new forms, Gohan just has to break through his current limits.
if he will continue training yes, but it is not the case.
I would have more sense before when it was more relevant but I think it is the point ... of gohan really is not saying anything now because his increase far higher than his father feels more incoherent and disproportionate.

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Re: For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Post by Kagari » Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:24 pm

emperior wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:09 am
Unpopular opinion here, but I actually liked how Super handled Gohan.

Yes, he was out of shape in RoF, couldn’t participate in the U6 tournament for plot reasons, was left out of Future Trunks’ arc for yet another plot reason (let’s be frank, Gohan would have completely changed the narrative in both arcs) but he was actually very well done in the Tournament of Power. Like, especially very well done.
I don’t get what people were expecting out of him during the tournament. If he won the whole thing, that would have actually been a little disappointing because it would have been too soon for Gohan to shine that much. Instead, he finally got back his powers and went even beyond what his full power was in Z. He overcame his arrogance and became a true warrior, U7’s leader respected by Freeza too, and even when his battles resulted in universes being erased he didn’t hesitate and in the end he decided to take Dyspo out with himself (and let’s not forget that Dyspo was so strong not even teaming up with Golden Freeza was helping much).

Resurrection F hasn’t “ruined” Gohan’s character at all for me. Instead, that’s actually a new low for Gohan after he got out of shape between Cell and Buu (this time more justified considering Goku is alive), and a new chance for him to spring back up to the top or at least keep in shape. I would even argue that Gohan’s return to form during the tournament was actually more satisfying due to how weak and out of shape he looked during the events of Freeza’s revenge.

Now, what’s to be seen is what will be done with him in the future. If Gohan keeps being retired from the main stories after what he did in the ToP, THAT would be disappointing. Unlike many others, what actually hyped me from his line in Episode #90 was that he actually wanted to improve alongside Goku (as for the form, Gohan was referring to his ultimate one which is already perfect as it is). I really hope that Gohan will keep being relevant in the future, until the day he can actually go back to being the “hero” as he was during the Cell Games and, for a brief moment, in the Buu arc.
His potential keeps being mentioned and the way he improved for the tournament is proof that his potential is still there and higher than basically everyone else’s. Which is always a nice thing, because it can be used as the excuse as to why Gohan can surpass his father again in the future.

One thing I would definitely change in Super about Gohan is his gi. I don’t like him wearing his father’s clothes as the reason why he wanted those clothes in the first place is no longer there considering Goku is now alive.
Instead, I would prefer it if Gohan could use the gi he trained in before the Budokai Tenkaichi back during early Buu arc, or the Great Saiyaman outfit without the cape and helmet, so that he can distinguish himself from his father and the other disciples of Roshi (or from Piccolo in the manga).
The purple gi with orange belt would be best in my opinion, as it feels like it pays homage to both Piccolo and Goku, who are both Gohan’s martial arts masters.
Great post. I think Gohan being left off in such a good position is a good thing and I want to imagine Toei won't want to go back on that since it was really them who wanted to keep him active. We're ages away from Resurrection F at this point so as long as whatever comes in the future doesn't pile on any regression of sorts.

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Re: For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Post by Raimundo » Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:30 pm

Kagari wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:24 pm
emperior wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:09 am
Unpopular opinion here, but I actually liked how Super handled Gohan.

Yes, he was out of shape in RoF, couldn’t participate in the U6 tournament for plot reasons, was left out of Future Trunks’ arc for yet another plot reason (let’s be frank, Gohan would have completely changed the narrative in both arcs) but he was actually very well done in the Tournament of Power. Like, especially very well done.
I don’t get what people were expecting out of him during the tournament. If he won the whole thing, that would have actually been a little disappointing because it would have been too soon for Gohan to shine that much. Instead, he finally got back his powers and went even beyond what his full power was in Z. He overcame his arrogance and became a true warrior, U7’s leader respected by Freeza too, and even when his battles resulted in universes being erased he didn’t hesitate and in the end he decided to take Dyspo out with himself (and let’s not forget that Dyspo was so strong not even teaming up with Golden Freeza was helping much).

Resurrection F hasn’t “ruined” Gohan’s character at all for me. Instead, that’s actually a new low for Gohan after he got out of shape between Cell and Buu (this time more justified considering Goku is alive), and a new chance for him to spring back up to the top or at least keep in shape. I would even argue that Gohan’s return to form during the tournament was actually more satisfying due to how weak and out of shape he looked during the events of Freeza’s revenge.

Now, what’s to be seen is what will be done with him in the future. If Gohan keeps being retired from the main stories after what he did in the ToP, THAT would be disappointing. Unlike many others, what actually hyped me from his line in Episode #90 was that he actually wanted to improve alongside Goku (as for the form, Gohan was referring to his ultimate one which is already perfect as it is). I really hope that Gohan will keep being relevant in the future, until the day he can actually go back to being the “hero” as he was during the Cell Games and, for a brief moment, in the Buu arc.
His potential keeps being mentioned and the way he improved for the tournament is proof that his potential is still there and higher than basically everyone else’s. Which is always a nice thing, because it can be used as the excuse as to why Gohan can surpass his father again in the future.

One thing I would definitely change in Super about Gohan is his gi. I don’t like him wearing his father’s clothes as the reason why he wanted those clothes in the first place is no longer there considering Goku is now alive.
Instead, I would prefer it if Gohan could use the gi he trained in before the Budokai Tenkaichi back during early Buu arc, or the Great Saiyaman outfit without the cape and helmet, so that he can distinguish himself from his father and the other disciples of Roshi (or from Piccolo in the manga).
The purple gi with orange belt would be best in my opinion, as it feels like it pays homage to both Piccolo and Goku, who are both Gohan’s martial arts masters.
Great post. I think Gohan being left off in such a good position is a good thing and I want to imagine Toei won't want to go back on that since it was really them who wanted to keep him active. We're ages away from Resurrection F at this point so as long as whatever comes in the future doesn't pile on any regression of sorts.
I don’t even think what Toei wants is too relevant though. Since if AT doesn’t want to use him, it’ll already create problems like in Broly with Gohan’s absence. Which in-universe, doesn’t reflect well on Gohan at all. AT’s lack of interest in using him leading to this outcome

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Re: For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Post by funrush » Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:38 pm

Gohan's weakness is never really addressed in a satisfying way.

If we had a little subplot or filler episode about how Gohan views his early years as highly traumatic, and that's why he stopped fighting, that works more. Or if he's just really enamored with the idea of raising a kid and having a normal life. Instead, the show just tells us that he's lazy and he sucks now, that's it.

In both the Cell and Buu arcs, Gohan is the strongest non-fused protagonist. It's just really jarring to throw all that out the window without addressing it or giving him some sort of closure, etc.

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Re: For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Post by Zephyr » Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:24 pm

emperior wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:09 am
If Gohan keeps being retired from the main stories after what he did in the ToP, THAT would be disappointing. Unlike many others, what actually hyped me from his line in Episode #90 was that he actually wanted to improve alongside Goku (as for the form, Gohan was referring to his ultimate one which is already perfect as it is). I really hope that Gohan will keep being relevant in the future, until the day he can actually go back to being the “hero” as he was during the Cell Games and, for a brief moment, in the Buu arc.
His potential keeps being mentioned and the way he improved for the tournament is proof that his potential is still there and higher than basically everyone else’s. Which is always a nice thing, because it can be used as the excuse as to why Gohan can surpass his father again in the future.
I'm not sure I'd be down for all of this. Gohan obviously has the potential to surpass Goku in strength, but his role in the story is to decidedly not deliver on that permanently. For starters, it's a good bit of irony that Son Goku's own son could surpass him if he had the drive that Goku does, but he doesn't. Secondly, Gohan doesn't have the tunnel vision priorities that a majority of the story's big martial artists tend to. For Goku, The Fight™ is his life. For Gohan, he has a career and a family, and it would make no sense for him to prioritize The Fight™ over them. And I'd argue that unless he did so, he would never be able to improve alongside Goku, keep up with Goku, surpass Goku, and be "the hero" of the story. Obviously someone could write it so that he did so without putting his family or career second, but I don't think that would jive with who Gohan is, and why Goku is so successful at what he does. Goku commits everything to improving himself; Gohan doesn't, and shouldn't.

I feel the same rings true for Kurilin. He's got a family and a career now. It's good that he wants to stay in shape, but he's not "aiming for the top" anymore, and it would make little sense for him to do so. Both of them "getting back in the saddle" for the Tournament of Power felt like little more than a formality to me. I don't take any of what was done with either of them as a sign that they'll be all about "pushing it to the limit" for its own sake, in the ring or on the battlefield, at any point going forward.

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Re: For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Post by Kagari » Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:32 pm

Raimundo wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:30 pm
Kagari wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:24 pm
emperior wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:09 am
Unpopular opinion here, but I actually liked how Super handled Gohan.

Yes, he was out of shape in RoF, couldn’t participate in the U6 tournament for plot reasons, was left out of Future Trunks’ arc for yet another plot reason (let’s be frank, Gohan would have completely changed the narrative in both arcs) but he was actually very well done in the Tournament of Power. Like, especially very well done.
I don’t get what people were expecting out of him during the tournament. If he won the whole thing, that would have actually been a little disappointing because it would have been too soon for Gohan to shine that much. Instead, he finally got back his powers and went even beyond what his full power was in Z. He overcame his arrogance and became a true warrior, U7’s leader respected by Freeza too, and even when his battles resulted in universes being erased he didn’t hesitate and in the end he decided to take Dyspo out with himself (and let’s not forget that Dyspo was so strong not even teaming up with Golden Freeza was helping much).

Resurrection F hasn’t “ruined” Gohan’s character at all for me. Instead, that’s actually a new low for Gohan after he got out of shape between Cell and Buu (this time more justified considering Goku is alive), and a new chance for him to spring back up to the top or at least keep in shape. I would even argue that Gohan’s return to form during the tournament was actually more satisfying due to how weak and out of shape he looked during the events of Freeza’s revenge.

Now, what’s to be seen is what will be done with him in the future. If Gohan keeps being retired from the main stories after what he did in the ToP, THAT would be disappointing. Unlike many others, what actually hyped me from his line in Episode #90 was that he actually wanted to improve alongside Goku (as for the form, Gohan was referring to his ultimate one which is already perfect as it is). I really hope that Gohan will keep being relevant in the future, until the day he can actually go back to being the “hero” as he was during the Cell Games and, for a brief moment, in the Buu arc.
His potential keeps being mentioned and the way he improved for the tournament is proof that his potential is still there and higher than basically everyone else’s. Which is always a nice thing, because it can be used as the excuse as to why Gohan can surpass his father again in the future.

One thing I would definitely change in Super about Gohan is his gi. I don’t like him wearing his father’s clothes as the reason why he wanted those clothes in the first place is no longer there considering Goku is now alive.
Instead, I would prefer it if Gohan could use the gi he trained in before the Budokai Tenkaichi back during early Buu arc, or the Great Saiyaman outfit without the cape and helmet, so that he can distinguish himself from his father and the other disciples of Roshi (or from Piccolo in the manga).
The purple gi with orange belt would be best in my opinion, as it feels like it pays homage to both Piccolo and Goku, who are both Gohan’s martial arts masters.
Great post. I think Gohan being left off in such a good position is a good thing and I want to imagine Toei won't want to go back on that since it was really them who wanted to keep him active. We're ages away from Resurrection F at this point so as long as whatever comes in the future doesn't pile on any regression of sorts.
I don’t even think what Toei wants is too relevant though. Since if AT doesn’t want to use him, it’ll already create problems like in Broly with Gohan’s absence. Which in-universe, doesn’t reflect well on Gohan at all. AT’s lack of interest in using him leading to this outcome
Considering it was Toei who put Gohan back as a regular on the show immediately after the Trunks arc and gave him a major role in the Universe Survivial arc, I beg to differ. And Toriyama's "interest" seems to matter little now with his editors/Dragon Room fielding him ideas he keeps accepting regardless.

Keeping Gohan and the others out of Broly is absolutely a problem and doesn't really make much sense anyway given the concepts of the series that came before. If anything it's Broly that feels like a relic of Super's past (which makes sense given it was in production during the early part of the US arc...) and as a result shouldn't be a reflection of the series proper, IMO. Even Goku and Vegeta's role in that movie amounts to nothing but fusion fodder. They're worthless there.

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Re: For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Post by emperior » Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:28 pm

Zephyr wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:24 pm
emperior wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:09 am
If Gohan keeps being retired from the main stories after what he did in the ToP, THAT would be disappointing. Unlike many others, what actually hyped me from his line in Episode #90 was that he actually wanted to improve alongside Goku (as for the form, Gohan was referring to his ultimate one which is already perfect as it is). I really hope that Gohan will keep being relevant in the future, until the day he can actually go back to being the “hero” as he was during the Cell Games and, for a brief moment, in the Buu arc.
His potential keeps being mentioned and the way he improved for the tournament is proof that his potential is still there and higher than basically everyone else’s. Which is always a nice thing, because it can be used as the excuse as to why Gohan can surpass his father again in the future.
I'm not sure I'd be down for all of this. Gohan obviously has the potential to surpass Goku in strength, but his role in the story is to decidedly not deliver on that permanently. For starters, it's a good bit of irony that Son Goku's own son could surpass him if he had the drive that Goku does, but he doesn't. Secondly, Gohan doesn't have the tunnel vision priorities that a majority of the story's big martial artists tend to. For Goku, The Fight™ is his life. For Gohan, he has a career and a family, and it would make no sense for him to prioritize The Fight™ over them. And I'd argue that unless he did so, he would never be able to improve alongside Goku, keep up with Goku, surpass Goku, and be "the hero" of the story. Obviously someone could write it so that he did so without putting his family or career second, but I don't think that would jive with who Gohan is, and why Goku is so successful at what he does. Goku commits everything to improving himself; Gohan doesn't, and shouldn't.

I feel the same rings true for Kurilin. He's got a family and a career now. It's good that he wants to stay in shape, but he's not "aiming for the top" anymore, and it would make little sense for him to do so. Both of them "getting back in the saddle" for the Tournament of Power felt like little more than a formality to me. I don't take any of what was done with either of them as a sign that they'll be all about "pushing it to the limit" for its own sake, in the ring or on the battlefield, at any point going forward.
I would have to agree with you, if it wasn’t for the fact that it’s entirely possible for us to get a very long arc like the ones Dragon Ball Z had with a foe so threatening that Gohan would be actually forced to get stronger in order to beat said villain. Someone like Majin Buu who was going around eating people left and right with no one strong enough to oppose him would be the best example of a villain who would force literally everyone to do their best to stop the enemy from doing irreparable damage or from killing them all.
The Tournament of Powet too was such a big event that, as you said, forced Krillin and Gohan out of retirement.

I think your argument lies on the premise that future Super arcs will stay self contained with neutral antagonists, or set in other universes/dimensions/timelines or too short, so that characters like Gohan will stay out of it (even that is questionable as it would be dumb for Goku not to ask for Gohan’s help if the situation gets so dire the entire multiverse is in danger, but then the recent movie also contradicts this...).

It’s entirely possible though that new stories will be written in such a way that characters like Gohan will have to stay out of them. But I hope this won’t be the case, not just for Gohan but for the whole story of Super, as it desperately needs some more serious and tense arcs.

Also I remind you that in Dragon Ball Z stories (so from Saiyan arc onwards) characters like Gohan, Krillin and Yamcha fought even though they surely weren’t aiming for the top, but to save their own lives and their comrades’.
What I consider the Dragon Ball canon

Favorite Dragon Ball Arcs

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Re: For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Post by ruler9871 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:30 pm

Post-Cell Saga Gohan in general is mostly a disappointed, whether he be in the 2nd half of the Buu arc, Super or GT. This is simply because Toriyama failed to deliver with what he was building up with the character from the Saiyan saga to the end of the Cell Games.

Totally Not Mark's
video on Gohan explains everything wrong with the way Gohan ended up after Cell.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:47 pm

ruler9871 wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:30 pm

Totally Not Mark's[/b] video on Gohan explains everything wrong with the way Gohan ended up after Cell.
Who the hell is that?

And did this Totally not Mark say anything about post-Cell Games Gohan that hasn’t already been said ad infintum by the fandom already?

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