For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Kagari
Regular
Posts: 697
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:11 pm
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Post by Kagari » Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:54 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:47 pm
ruler9871 wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:30 pm

Totally Not Mark's[/b] video on Gohan explains everything wrong with the way Gohan ended up after Cell.
Who the hell is that?

And did this Totally not Mark say anything about post-Cell Games Gohan that hasn’t already been said ad infintum by the fandom already?
Not really. He paints Gohan's current status as the events of Resurrection F while ignoring everything else that came after so...

Zephyr
I Live Here
Posts: 3537
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:20 pm

Re: For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Post by Zephyr » Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:06 pm

emperior wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:28 pm
I would have to agree with you, if it wasn’t for the fact that it’s entirely possible for us to get a very long arc like the ones Dragon Ball Z had with a foe so threatening that Gohan would be actually forced to get stronger in order to beat said villain. Someone like Majin Buu who was going around eating people left and right with no one strong enough to oppose him would be the best example of a villain who would force literally everyone to do their best to stop the enemy from doing irreparable damage or from killing them all.
The Tournament of Powet too was such a big event that, as you said, forced Krillin and Gohan out of retirement.

I think your argument lies on the premise that future Super arcs will stay self contained with neutral antagonists, or set in other universes/dimensions/timelines or too short, so that characters like Gohan will stay out of it (even that is questionable as it would be dumb for Goku not to ask for Gohan’s help if the situation gets so dire the entire multiverse is in danger, but then the recent movie also contradicts this...).

It’s entirely possible though that new stories will be written in such a way that characters like Gohan will have to stay out of them. But I hope this won’t be the case, not just for Gohan but for the whole story of Super, as it desperately needs some more serious and tense arcs.

Also I remind you that in Dragon Ball Z stories (so from Saiyan arc onwards) characters like Gohan, Krillin and Yamcha fought even though they surely weren’t aiming for the top, but to save their own lives and their comrades’.
It's indeed entirely possible for us to get a long arc where the stakes are so high that everyone has to get involved and Gohan has to quit his job and leave his family so that he can be a martial arts junkie like his father. It's also possible that Toriyama will draw an entire volume of Dragon Ball again, and an adaptation animated by Masaaki Yuasa and scored by avant-garde Japanese black metal band "Sigh" would follow. I just don't think either is at all needed or likely (though I certainly would kill for the latter).

Dragon Ball is a martial arts story. It's about martial artists seeking unending growth, it's about rivalries and grudges developing as a result of this pursuit, and these rivalries and grudges in turn facilitating this pursuit. These are the real stakes. "The stakes", in the sense of the threat of death and destruction, being so high that everyone and their horse has to show up and contribute is not, and has never been, the central narrative thrust. It certainly happens a lot, but that's always subservient to the greater martial arts story that it plays a role in. Sometimes their pursuit for unending strength causes problems for the rest of the world, sometimes problems for the rest of the world give them a stage for pursuing that unending strength. Things didn't even get that dire against Broli; they didn't throw half of what they tossed Boo's way against him, and most of the new tech they got between Boo and Broli never became necessary. It felt like a big game to just about everyone involved.

Where Super is at the moment, we've got a multi-layered series of rivalries between characters like Goku, Beerus, Vegeta, Freeza, Jiren, Broli, and eventually Oob. These rivalries are existing open plot threads, and that's already a lot of characters for the story to revolve around. Insofar as these rivalries play out, the well being of everyone on Earth may indeed come into jeapordy again, and it may indeed cause Gohan, Kurilin, Yamucha, and the like to come out of retirement (again), and throw down. But, as with the Tournament of Power, I don't see that leading to, or needing to lead to, Gohan being The Lead again, nor do I see that entailing Gohan permanently forsaking his career and family to be a martial arts junkie like his dad. That would do him more dirty than not being the strongest, or not being the protagonist, ever could. Even him being the strongest, and the protagonist, and also not having to part ways with his family and his career would be dumb; while a story could obviously have him do that, it would feel too much like the author just wants Gohan to "have his cake and eat it too", you know? Like there would be no downside to him putting his eggs in too many baskets. Let Gohan be different. Let Gohan embody potential that needn't and shouldn't be tapped. Let Gohan retire. Let Gohan walk a different path.

For what it's worth, I think Vegeta is ideally going to walk down the same path as Kurilin and Gohan before him. He was already prioritizing Bra over training prior to the Tournament of Power, and said "fuck this" to Ultra Instinct during the Tournament of Power. He'll soon be a family man, who thus doesn't have the time in the day to commit to the martial arts like Goku does, and is thus, reasonably and rightly, no longer one of the main characters around whom the story will or ought to revolve.

Freeza seems primed to possibly take his place. In the same way Piccolo replaced Tenshinhan, and Vegeta replaced Piccolo, so too may Freeza replace Vegeta as the next "evil bastard turned rival to Goku". He's already been cooperative once, and no longer destroys the planet when backed into a corner. He'll either end up dead again (for good this time), or himself eventually left in the dust. Maybe we'll get some Neko Majin in the future, wherein Freeza starts a family of his own?

Then all that's left is for Piccolo to start a family as well, and then everyone from the original Freeza fight, sans Goku obviously, will functionally retire from the martial arts to be family men. :P
ruler9871 wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:30 pm
This is simply because Toriyama failed to deliver with what he was building up with the character from the Saiyan saga to the end of the Cell Games.
I felt like his Saiyan arc buildup paid off at the Cell Games. Gohan was introduced as someone with the potential to be the strongest, and that's exactly what he was against Cell. His deep well of strength was finally used as Goku's secret weapon, and it got the job done.

RecolorSaiyan
Regular
Posts: 556
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:40 pm

Re: For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:24 pm

Zephyr wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:06 pm
emperior wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:28 pm
I would have to agree with you, if it wasn’t for the fact that it’s entirely possible for us to get a very long arc like the ones Dragon Ball Z had with a foe so threatening that Gohan would be actually forced to get stronger in order to beat said villain. Someone like Majin Buu who was going around eating people left and right with no one strong enough to oppose him would be the best example of a villain who would force literally everyone to do their best to stop the enemy from doing irreparable damage or from killing them all.
The Tournament of Powet too was such a big event that, as you said, forced Krillin and Gohan out of retirement.

I think your argument lies on the premise that future Super arcs will stay self contained with neutral antagonists, or set in other universes/dimensions/timelines or too short, so that characters like Gohan will stay out of it (even that is questionable as it would be dumb for Goku not to ask for Gohan’s help if the situation gets so dire the entire multiverse is in danger, but then the recent movie also contradicts this...).

It’s entirely possible though that new stories will be written in such a way that characters like Gohan will have to stay out of them. But I hope this won’t be the case, not just for Gohan but for the whole story of Super, as it desperately needs some more serious and tense arcs.

Also I remind you that in Dragon Ball Z stories (so from Saiyan arc onwards) characters like Gohan, Krillin and Yamcha fought even though they surely weren’t aiming for the top, but to save their own lives and their comrades’.
It's indeed entirely possible for us to get a long arc where the stakes are so high that everyone has to get involved and Gohan has to quit his job and leave his family so that he can be a martial arts junkie like his father. It's also possible that Toriyama will draw an entire volume of Dragon Ball again, and an adaptation animated by Masaaki Yuasa and scored by avant-garde Japanese black metal band "Sigh" would follow. I just don't think either is at all needed or likely (though I certainly would kill for the latter).

Dragon Ball is a martial arts story. It's about martial artists seeking unending growth, it's about rivalries and grudges developing as a result of this pursuit, and these rivalries and grudges in turn facilitating this pursuit. These are the real stakes. "The stakes", in the sense of the threat of death and destruction, being so high that everyone and their horse has to show up and contribute is not, and has never been, the central narrative thrust. It certainly happens a lot, but that's always subservient to the greater martial arts story that it plays a role in. Sometimes their pursuit for unending strength causes problems for the rest of the world, sometimes problems for the rest of the world give them a stage for pursuing that unending strength. Things didn't even get that dire against Broli; they didn't throw half of what they tossed Boo's way against him, and most of the new tech they got between Boo and Broli never became necessary. It felt like a big game to just about everyone involved.

Where Super is at the moment, we've got a multi-layered series of rivalries between characters like Goku, Beerus, Vegeta, Freeza, Jiren, Broli, and eventually Oob. These rivalries are existing open plot threads, and that's already a lot of characters for the story to revolve around. Insofar as these rivalries play out, the well being of everyone on Earth may indeed come into jeapordy again, and it may indeed cause Gohan, Kurilin, Yamucha, and the like to come out of retirement (again), and throw down. But, as with the Tournament of Power, I don't see that leading to, or needing to lead to, Gohan being The Lead again, nor do I see that entailing Gohan permanently forsaking his career and family to be a martial arts junkie like his dad. That would do him more dirty than not being the strongest, or not being the protagonist, ever could. Even him being the strongest, and the protagonist, and also not having to part ways with his family and his career would be dumb; while a story could obviously have him do that, it would feel too much like the author just wants Gohan to "have his cake and eat it too", you know? Like there would be no downside to him putting his eggs in too many baskets. Let Gohan be different. Let Gohan embody potential that needn't and shouldn't be tapped. Let Gohan retire. Let Gohan walk a different path.

For what it's worth, I think Vegeta is ideally going to walk down the same path as Kurilin and Gohan before him. He was already prioritizing Bra over training prior to the Tournament of Power, and said "fuck this" to Ultra Instinct during the Tournament of Power. He'll soon be a family man, who thus doesn't have the time in the day to commit to the martial arts like Goku does, and is thus, reasonably and rightly, no longer one of the main characters around whom the story will or ought to revolve.

Freeza seems primed to possibly take his place. In the same way Piccolo replaced Tenshinhan, and Vegeta replaced Piccolo, so too may Freeza replace Vegeta as the next "evil bastard turned rival to Goku". He's already been cooperative once, and no longer destroys the planet when backed into a corner. He'll either end up dead again (for good this time), or himself eventually left in the dust. Maybe we'll get some Neko Majin in the future, wherein Freeza starts a family of his own?

Then all that's left is for Piccolo to start a family as well, and then everyone from the original Freeza fight, sans Goku obviously, will functionally retire from the martial arts to be family men. :P

Disagree on the Vegeta thing. The broly movie and Moro arc have him training and fucking off to fight with Goku, he’s never gonna be the child rearing type and will let Bulma do that
ruler9871 wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:30 pm
This is simply because Toriyama failed to deliver with what he was building up with the character from the Saiyan saga to the end of the Cell Games.
I felt like his Saiyan arc buildup paid off at the Cell Games. Gohan was introduced as someone with the potential to be the strongest, and that's exactly what he was against Cell. His deep well of strength was finally used as Goku's secret weapon, and it got the job done.

Zephyr
I Live Here
Posts: 3537
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:20 pm

Re: For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Post by Zephyr » Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:39 pm

RecolorSaiyan wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:24 pm
Disagree on the Vegeta thing. The broly movie and Moro arc have him training and fucking off to fight with Goku, he’s never gonna be the child rearing type and will let Bulma do that
I didn't say he's right there right now, just that seeds have been planted.

User avatar
Kagari
Regular
Posts: 697
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:11 pm
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Post by Kagari » Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:44 pm

Zephyr wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:06 pm
emperior wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:28 pm
I would have to agree with you, if it wasn’t for the fact that it’s entirely possible for us to get a very long arc like the ones Dragon Ball Z had with a foe so threatening that Gohan would be actually forced to get stronger in order to beat said villain. Someone like Majin Buu who was going around eating people left and right with no one strong enough to oppose him would be the best example of a villain who would force literally everyone to do their best to stop the enemy from doing irreparable damage or from killing them all.
The Tournament of Powet too was such a big event that, as you said, forced Krillin and Gohan out of retirement.

I think your argument lies on the premise that future Super arcs will stay self contained with neutral antagonists, or set in other universes/dimensions/timelines or too short, so that characters like Gohan will stay out of it (even that is questionable as it would be dumb for Goku not to ask for Gohan’s help if the situation gets so dire the entire multiverse is in danger, but then the recent movie also contradicts this...).

It’s entirely possible though that new stories will be written in such a way that characters like Gohan will have to stay out of them. But I hope this won’t be the case, not just for Gohan but for the whole story of Super, as it desperately needs some more serious and tense arcs.

Also I remind you that in Dragon Ball Z stories (so from Saiyan arc onwards) characters like Gohan, Krillin and Yamcha fought even though they surely weren’t aiming for the top, but to save their own lives and their comrades’.
It's indeed entirely possible for us to get a long arc where the stakes are so high that everyone has to get involved and Gohan has to quit his job and leave his family so that he can be a martial arts junkie like his father. It's also possible that Toriyama will draw an entire volume of Dragon Ball again, and an adaptation animated by Masaaki Yuasa and scored by avant-garde Japanese black metal band "Sigh" would follow. I just don't think either is at all needed or likely (though I certainly would kill for the latter).

Dragon Ball is a martial arts story. It's about martial artists seeking unending growth, it's about rivalries and grudges developing as a result of this pursuit, and these rivalries and grudges in turn facilitating this pursuit. These are the real stakes. "The stakes", in the sense of the threat of death and destruction, being so high that everyone and their horse has to show up and contribute is not, and has never been, the central narrative thrust. It certainly happens a lot, but that's always subservient to the greater martial arts story that it plays a role in. Sometimes their pursuit for unending strength causes problems for the rest of the world, sometimes problems for the rest of the world give them a stage for pursuing that unending strength. Things didn't even get that dire against Broli; they didn't throw half of what they tossed Boo's way against him, and most of the new tech they got between Boo and Broli never became necessary. It felt like a big game to just about everyone involved.

Where Super is at the moment, we've got a multi-layered series of rivalries between characters like Goku, Beerus, Vegeta, Freeza, Jiren, Broli, and eventually Oob. These rivalries are existing open plot threads, and that's already a lot of characters for the story to revolve around. Insofar as these rivalries play out, the well being of everyone on Earth may indeed come into jeapordy again, and it may indeed cause Gohan, Kurilin, Yamucha, and the like to come out of retirement (again), and throw down. But, as with the Tournament of Power, I don't see that leading to, or needing to lead to, Gohan being The Lead again, nor do I see that entailing Gohan permanently forsaking his career and family to be a martial arts junkie like his dad. That would do him more dirty than not being the strongest, or not being the protagonist, ever could. Even him being the strongest, and the protagonist, and also not having to part ways with his family and his career would be dumb; while a story could obviously have him do that, it would feel too much like the author just wants Gohan to "have his cake and eat it too", you know? Like there would be no downside to him putting his eggs in too many baskets. Let Gohan be different. Let Gohan embody potential that needn't and shouldn't be tapped. Let Gohan retire. Let Gohan walk a different path.

For what it's worth, I think Vegeta is ideally going to walk down the same path as Kurilin and Gohan before him. He was already prioritizing Bra over training prior to the Tournament of Power, and said "fuck this" to Ultra Instinct during the Tournament of Power. He'll soon be a family man, who thus doesn't have the time in the day to commit to the martial arts like Goku does, and is thus, reasonably and rightly, no longer one of the main characters around whom the story will or ought to revolve.

Freeza seems primed to possibly take his place. In the same way Piccolo replaced Tenshinhan, and Vegeta replaced Piccolo, so too may Freeza replace Vegeta as the next "evil bastard turned rival to Goku". He's already been cooperative once, and no longer destroys the planet when backed into a corner. He'll either end up dead again (for good this time), or himself eventually left in the dust. Maybe we'll get some Neko Majin in the future, wherein Freeza starts a family of his own?

Then all that's left is for Piccolo to start a family as well, and then everyone from the original Freeza fight, sans Goku obviously, will functionally retire from the martial arts to be family men. :P
ruler9871 wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:30 pm
This is simply because Toriyama failed to deliver with what he was building up with the character from the Saiyan saga to the end of the Cell Games.
I felt like his Saiyan arc buildup paid off at the Cell Games. Gohan was introduced as someone with the potential to be the strongest, and that's exactly what he was against Cell. His deep well of strength was finally used as Goku's secret weapon, and it got the job done.
To the first bolded part... Freeza is still a villain, not a rival. The others are just wishful thinking and Beerus is never getting off the lawn at this rate.

To the second part... This is a series about fighting so... no. Super gave him proper motivations, and used those motivations well. It's not like those types of conflicts are going to go away either since they keep happening.

Zephyr
I Live Here
Posts: 3537
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:20 pm

Re: For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Post by Zephyr » Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:12 pm

Kagari wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:44 pm
To the first bolded part... Freeza is still a villain, not a rival. The others are just wishful thinking and Beerus is never getting off the lawn at this rate.

To the second part... This is a series about fighting so... no. Super gave him proper motivations, and used those motivations well. It's not like those types of conflicts are going to go away either since they keep happening.
"Rival" and "villain" are hardly mutually exclusive, and just like with Vegeta: "I didn't say he's right there right now, just that seeds have been planted". How are the others in any way "wishful thinking" when they are all characters who, according to the story, are either planning to fight Goku again, or are planned to be fought again by Goku?

Yes, it's a series about fighting, hence "no" is a rather odd response to any of the second bolded part. What "proper" motivations did Super give Gohan?

User avatar
Kagari
Regular
Posts: 697
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:11 pm
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Post by Kagari » Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:42 pm

Zephyr wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:12 pm
Kagari wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:44 pm
To the first bolded part... Freeza is still a villain, not a rival. The others are just wishful thinking and Beerus is never getting off the lawn at this rate.

To the second part... This is a series about fighting so... no. Super gave him proper motivations, and used those motivations well. It's not like those types of conflicts are going to go away either since they keep happening.
"Rival" and "villain" are hardly mutually exclusive, and just like with Vegeta: "I didn't say he's right there right now, just that seeds have been planted". How are the others in any way "wishful thinking" when they are all characters who, according to the story, are either planning to fight Goku again, or are planned to be fought again by Goku?

Yes, it's a series about fighting, hence "no" is a rather odd response to any of the second bolded part. What "proper" motivations did Super give Gohan?
You said he should retire. I disagree.
Super had him commit to training again after F so he could be there to protect his friends/family. He's one of the only characters in the cast with said motivations. Gohan works as someone Goku can interact with for relationship reasons but also because Goku himself expressed a desire to go further together with him and Gohan in turn still looks for approval from his father. It's a good dynamic that can easily be expanded on given it's still largely unexplored.

Zephyr
I Live Here
Posts: 3537
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:20 pm

Re: For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Post by Zephyr » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:46 pm

Kagari wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:42 pm
You said he should retire. I disagree.
Super had him commit to training again after F so he could be there to protect his friends/family. He's one of the only characters in the cast with said motivations. Gohan works as someone Goku can interact with for relationship reasons but also because Goku himself expressed a desire to go further together with him and Gohan in turn still looks for approval from his father. It's a good dynamic that can easily be expanded on given it's still largely unexplored.
I said to let him retire (among several other things), not necessarily that he should. I meant both from the martial arts, but also from the "strongest guy, and also the protagonist" role that so, so, so many people think that the story has to do in order to not be trash. Or something. If the story is such that he's retired from martial arts, then that's allowed to be a thing that happens with him.

Indeed, however, he's not retired, in Super. I'm honestly skeptical that it'll amount to anything in the core of the story, though. Goku says in the anime alone (right?) that he wants Gohan to grow with him, yet he's nowhere to be seen in the next two stories (so far). If Goku wants Gohan to grow with him, then why isn't he training with Whis and Beerus alongside Vegeta and himself? You might argue that this is a shortcoming of the two stories in question, but I'd argue that some anime exclusive (right?) material was given too much weight by fandom. I personally didn't buy it at the time, and I'm still skeptical. Time will tell once Super returns, though. I'd be more than fine with Gohan at least attempting to get on that regimen with the rest of them.

I'm of two minds with him training to protect his family. On one hand: I'm all for that. On the other hand, contained within that is the thing that keeps him from having his cake and eating it too (or, the fans from eating the cake, I guess). He's committed to his family, and that's great. As a result, though, I wouldn't count on him keeping up with, let alone surpassing, Goku, because his pursuit isn't purely motivated for its own sake, like Goku's. That's arguably why Goku leaves every single rival of his in the dust. Which, I think, is absolutely fine. It just means he won't "surpass his father again", as so, so, so many people think that the story has to go in order to not be trash.

In my ideal wish fantasy land version of the story going forward, Gohan would cultivate techniques similar to Fist of the North Star's character, Toki. Like a lot of characters in Fist of the North Star, Toki channels his own ki through the pressure points of others, and this can be used for both great destructive effect, as well as great therapeutic effect. In the destructive cases, people on the receiving end tend to explode from the inside out, and their bodies contort in pain. Toki, specifically, focuses on the healing component. Though, he does kill people; and when he does, interestingly enough, those on the receiving end feel pleasure, rather than pain, as they explode and contort. Dragon Ball Online gave us the now famous tidbit about Gohan combining his knowledge of ki control with his scholarly pursuits. I'd love to see Gohan invent a new fighting style, which resembles Toki's, that only someone with his firsthand knowledge of ki control and academic knowledge could invent. The benevolent style of it would gel well with his pretensions of justice, I feel.

---

tl;dr of my points from my few posts here:
- He doesn't have to retire from fighting, but there's nothing wrong with him doing so
- Even if he doesn't retire from fighting, he doesn't have to show up to every battle
- Even if he doesn't retire from fighting, it wouldn't make sense for him to surpass Goku
- Even if he has the potential to surpass Goku, he doesn't have to do so

User avatar
Kagari
Regular
Posts: 697
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:11 pm
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Post by Kagari » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:47 pm

Zephyr wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:46 pm
Kagari wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:42 pm
You said he should retire. I disagree.
Super had him commit to training again after F so he could be there to protect his friends/family. He's one of the only characters in the cast with said motivations. Gohan works as someone Goku can interact with for relationship reasons but also because Goku himself expressed a desire to go further together with him and Gohan in turn still looks for approval from his father. It's a good dynamic that can easily be expanded on given it's still largely unexplored.
I said to let him retire (among several other things), not necessarily that he should. I meant both from the martial arts, but also from the "strongest guy, and also the protagonist" role that so, so, so many people think that the story has to do in order to not be trash. Or something. If the story is such that he's retired from martial arts, then that's allowed to be a thing that happens with him.

Indeed, however, he's not retired, in Super. I'm honestly skeptical that it'll amount to anything in the core of the story, though. Goku says in the anime alone (right?) that he wants Gohan to grow with him, yet he's nowhere to be seen in the next two stories (so far). If Goku wants Gohan to grow with him, then why isn't he training with Whis and Beerus alongside Vegeta and himself? You might argue that this is a shortcoming of the two stories in question, but I'd argue that some anime exclusive (right?) material was given too much weight by fandom. I personally didn't buy it at the time, and I'm still skeptical. Time will tell once Super returns, though. I'd be more than fine with Gohan at least attempting to get on that regimen with the rest of them.

I'm of two minds with him training to protect his family. On one hand: I'm all for that. On the other hand, contained within that is the thing that keeps him from having his cake and eating it too (or, the fans from eating the cake, I guess). He's committed to his family, and that's great. As a result, though, I wouldn't count on him keeping up with, let alone surpassing, Goku, because his pursuit isn't purely motivated for its own sake, like Goku's. That's arguably why Goku leaves every single rival of his in the dust. Which, I think, is absolutely fine. It just means he won't "surpass his father again", as so, so, so many people think that the story has to go in order to not be trash.

In my ideal wish fantasy land version of the story going forward, Gohan would cultivate techniques similar to Fist of the North Star's character, Toki. Like a lot of characters in Fist of the North Star, Toki channels his own ki through the pressure points of others, and this can be used for both great destructive effect, as well as great therapeutic effect. In the destructive cases, people on the receiving end tend to explode from the inside out, and their bodies contort in pain. Toki, specifically, focuses on the healing component. Though, he does kill people; and when he does, interestingly enough, those on the receiving end feel pleasure, rather than pain, as they explode and contort. Dragon Ball Online gave us the now famous tidbit about Gohan combining his knowledge of ki control with his scholarly pursuits. I'd love to see Gohan invent a new fighting style, which resembles Toki's, that only someone with his firsthand knowledge of ki control and academic knowledge could invent. The benevolent style of it would gel well with his pretensions of justice, I feel.

---

tl;dr of my points from my few posts here:
- He doesn't have to retire from fighting, but there's nothing wrong with him doing so
- Even if he doesn't retire from fighting, he doesn't have to show up to every battle
- Even if he doesn't retire from fighting, it wouldn't make sense for him to surpass Goku
- Even if he has the potential to surpass Goku, he doesn't have to do so
I don't care if he's the main character/strongest. Taking on roles like he had in the Universe Survival arc is just fine and more than respectful - bonus points if he gets to do things with Goku.

I don't put a lot of weight on his absence from Broly or the Moro arc (so far) because 1) just about everyone was/is also missing and 2) much like the U6 and Trunks arc didn't stop Gohan's involvement thereafter, neither will these. Given Toei staff comments, it'll be interesting to see what they do when they have more room in a TV series going forward.

BWri
Regular
Posts: 732
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 1:56 pm
Contact:

Re: For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Post by BWri » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:55 am

Tai Lung wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:29 pm
the surprise to goku is enough ... is Goku SSB 100%
It's not enough to say she stronger than him, or even as strong as him. He used a punch of hers to judge her power and fought her on that level until she spiked her power suddenly. He was briefly surprised is all. After all, I don't think 100% SSB Goku would lose to those same Pride Troopers who defeated Kale.
BWri wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:02 am
That could be true, and that might not be true. I don't remember any explicitly saying that fusion heals you. I also don't remember anyone taking the same level of damage that Kale and Kefla did before using the Potara. If Zamasu is the only one, well, he's immortal.
Kefla has no injuries or visible fatigue and she is not immortal.
Goku and Vegeta merge herdios they also have no injuries or visible wounds.
Besides it does not matter if zamasu is immortal that does not restore the energy by fatigue.
Sorry, I meant Kale and Caulifla. They were both heavy damaged before fusing. No one else has been this damaged before using Potara and Kale was said to be losing energy after reaching her limits and was laid out on the floor before fusing.
BWri wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:02 am
It's not a strong argument. Remember, In the manga Vados just says she "may be unmatched on this battlefield".
ok but she had already seen several opponents in the tournament fight so it is relevant if we talk about the level.
But she's also not confident enough to say that she is unmatched, or that she's unmatched except for Jiren. She doesn't say those two things.
to gohan was unlocked the very different power
There is no proof that I would have achieved that by training and I most certainly would not have done it. because I never achieve something like this before it increased its power that is sure but never at that level.

I think if Frieza can do it, so can Gohan. Gohan is unique from any other character in the show. He is a Saiyan that doesn't need to transform to access all his strength. He is in a constant state of having his potential unlocked.
at least it does not justify having overcome his father who was already far away.
But that's taking away from the fact that Gohan was already far away from Goku at the end of the Buu saga. It's true that Goku got much much further away, but if Gohan was already stronger and has much more potential then it's not crazy that he could get stronger. Frieza already opened this door for mortals, as did Jiren, Kale, and Broly.
yes but 17 did not reach the level of ssj and gohan should not either.
You mean SSB? If so then you're right about 17 in the manga, but he's not a Saiyan with massive potential like Gohan who was already far ahead of Goku and Vegeta before they trained with Whis or did the ritual.
BWri wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:52 am
Gohan is a consistent aberration though, he always has huge power spikes. This one is no less ridiculous than going from weaker than his SSJ2 form 7 years prior in the Buu saga to getting stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks and Super Buu in less than a week. It's no less ridiculous than him losing so much power at the start of Super that many people considered him weaker than the start of the Buu saga. He just gains and loses an extreme amount of power over and over again, that's his thing.".
is a fair point but if it is not relevant as before ... so much power is not justified unlike frieza that is still
It's the same situation. Both were born with insane potentials. I would say Frieza's is better, but Gohan has his potential released on several occasions so maybe his is actually better at this point. It makes no sense to accept that Frieza and Broly can make such huge leaps in power because of their potential and condemn Gohan for it when that's always been his thing.
BWri wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:52 am
Whis' training is great, but it's not needed to great even stronger than the GoDs. Or does Jiren not exist? I already said Whis' training was great for allowing Goku and Vegeta to break past their Buu saga limits, but its not necessary for reaching GoD levels. At the end of the Buu saga, Gohan was closer than anyone to reaching GoD PL. If he never stopped training, he would've eventually gotten there most likely. Vegeta talks about his potential even in the Tournament of Destroyers arc.
"characters from other universes" I think that is the point of BofG there is someone stronger outside ... and as we do not know them we can not say that their level is not coherent at least not with jiren that was established that has more than 1000 old years and surpasses the gods.
I don't think it makes a difference which universe they are from. Broly is from Universe 7 after all and he's compared to a GoD same as Jiren. I think you're mixing Jiren with Hit. Jiren isn't over 1000 years old. Broly barely has any training and yet he's stronger than two Saiyan gods. That's just how Dragon Ball is now.
even with its new transformation frieza can not overcome the ssb ..
In FnF he did. He was much stronger than Goku and Vegeta but had stamina issues. If he waited another month or so to perfect the form, he likely could have singlehandedly beaten them. He is no match for 100% though, I agree there. At least not currently.
BWri wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:52 am
Yeah and he wasn't even trained by Whis. That goes against your point doesn't it? "Vegeta receives the guidance of whis besides getting the god ki is not comparable to a simple gravity training on earth." Trunks doesn't even have a gravity chamber. He trains in normal Earth gravity and yet he gets as strong as Goku and Vegeta in your words..
but he trains with vegeta before that ... and he also can not overcome his father level.
For like a few hours. Is that enough to catch up to Goku and Vegeta? If that's the case, Trunks is worse than Gohan
with gohan it was enough the god level plus ... it's stupid
Gohan has more potential than Trunks. Plus think of it like this. Gohan is likely aiming to get much stronger than Frieza, who humiliated him in FnF. If he has that goal in mind and trains to surpass that, I don't see why he wouldn't eventually get to god tier on his own.

if he will continue training yes, but it is not the case.
He does though, in the manga. That's the purpose of his gravity room visits.
I would have more sense before when it was more relevant but I think it is the point ... of gohan really is not saying anything now because his increase far higher than his father feels more incoherent and disproportionate.
I already showed you that their training with Whis didn't yield that superior of a result compared to Earth training. Piccolo could still keep up with their base forms if they needed Super Saiyan to decisively defeat Frost. If that is the case, then Gohan with a Gravity Chamber could easily catch up to them since he was in the lead power-wise at the end of the Buu saga. If Frieza and Broly, who started way, way weaker than Gohan could do it in much less time, then Gohan with his max potential unlocked can do it in a year.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-

ruler9871
Regular
Posts: 669
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:45 pm

Re: For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Post by ruler9871 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:03 am

Zephyr wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:06 pm
emperior wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:28 pm
I would have to agree with you, if it wasn’t for the fact that it’s entirely possible for us to get a very long arc like the ones Dragon Ball Z had with a foe so threatening that Gohan would be actually forced to get stronger in order to beat said villain. Someone like Majin Buu who was going around eating people left and right with no one strong enough to oppose him would be the best example of a villain who would force literally everyone to do their best to stop the enemy from doing irreparable damage or from killing them all.
The Tournament of Powet too was such a big event that, as you said, forced Krillin and Gohan out of retirement.

I think your argument lies on the premise that future Super arcs will stay self contained with neutral antagonists, or set in other universes/dimensions/timelines or too short, so that characters like Gohan will stay out of it (even that is questionable as it would be dumb for Goku not to ask for Gohan’s help if the situation gets so dire the entire multiverse is in danger, but then the recent movie also contradicts this...).

It’s entirely possible though that new stories will be written in such a way that characters like Gohan will have to stay out of them. But I hope this won’t be the case, not just for Gohan but for the whole story of Super, as it desperately needs some more serious and tense arcs.

Also I remind you that in Dragon Ball Z stories (so from Saiyan arc onwards) characters like Gohan, Krillin and Yamcha fought even though they surely weren’t aiming for the top, but to save their own lives and their comrades’.
It's indeed entirely possible for us to get a long arc where the stakes are so high that everyone has to get involved and Gohan has to quit his job and leave his family so that he can be a martial arts junkie like his father. It's also possible that Toriyama will draw an entire volume of Dragon Ball again, and an adaptation animated by Masaaki Yuasa and scored by avant-garde Japanese black metal band "Sigh" would follow. I just don't think either is at all needed or likely (though I certainly would kill for the latter).

Dragon Ball is a martial arts story. It's about martial artists seeking unending growth, it's about rivalries and grudges developing as a result of this pursuit, and these rivalries and grudges in turn facilitating this pursuit. These are the real stakes. "The stakes", in the sense of the threat of death and destruction, being so high that everyone and their horse has to show up and contribute is not, and has never been, the central narrative thrust. It certainly happens a lot, but that's always subservient to the greater martial arts story that it plays a role in. Sometimes their pursuit for unending strength causes problems for the rest of the world, sometimes problems for the rest of the world give them a stage for pursuing that unending strength. Things didn't even get that dire against Broli; they didn't throw half of what they tossed Boo's way against him, and most of the new tech they got between Boo and Broli never became necessary. It felt like a big game to just about everyone involved.

Where Super is at the moment, we've got a multi-layered series of rivalries between characters like Goku, Beerus, Vegeta, Freeza, Jiren, Broli, and eventually Oob. These rivalries are existing open plot threads, and that's already a lot of characters for the story to revolve around. Insofar as these rivalries play out, the well being of everyone on Earth may indeed come into jeapordy again, and it may indeed cause Gohan, Kurilin, Yamucha, and the like to come out of retirement (again), and throw down. But, as with the Tournament of Power, I don't see that leading to, or needing to lead to, Gohan being The Lead again, nor do I see that entailing Gohan permanently forsaking his career and family to be a martial arts junkie like his dad. That would do him more dirty than not being the strongest, or not being the protagonist, ever could. Even him being the strongest, and the protagonist, and also not having to part ways with his family and his career would be dumb; while a story could obviously have him do that, it would feel too much like the author just wants Gohan to "have his cake and eat it too", you know? Like there would be no downside to him putting his eggs in too many baskets. Let Gohan be different. Let Gohan embody potential that needn't and shouldn't be tapped. Let Gohan retire. Let Gohan walk a different path.

For what it's worth, I think Vegeta is ideally going to walk down the same path as Kurilin and Gohan before him. He was already prioritizing Bra over training prior to the Tournament of Power, and said "fuck this" to Ultra Instinct during the Tournament of Power. He'll soon be a family man, who thus doesn't have the time in the day to commit to the martial arts like Goku does, and is thus, reasonably and rightly, no longer one of the main characters around whom the story will or ought to revolve.

Freeza seems primed to possibly take his place. In the same way Piccolo replaced Tenshinhan, and Vegeta replaced Piccolo, so too may Freeza replace Vegeta as the next "evil bastard turned rival to Goku". He's already been cooperative once, and no longer destroys the planet when backed into a corner. He'll either end up dead again (for good this time), or himself eventually left in the dust. Maybe we'll get some Neko Majin in the future, wherein Freeza starts a family of his own?

Then all that's left is for Piccolo to start a family as well, and then everyone from the original Freeza fight, sans Goku obviously, will functionally retire from the martial arts to be family men. :P
ruler9871 wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:30 pm
This is simply because Toriyama failed to deliver with what he was building up with the character from the Saiyan saga to the end of the Cell Games.
I felt like his Saiyan arc buildup paid off at the Cell Games. Gohan was introduced as someone with the potential to be the strongest, and that's exactly what he was against Cell. His deep well of strength was finally used as Goku's secret weapon, and it got the job done.
1. You are assuming that a man can't run a family and be a warrior/martial arts at the same time (even though nearly all warrior cultures in real life do just that.) You are making a false dichotomy.

2. Your claims about Vegeta and Freeza simply don't hold up. Neither GT nor Super had Vegeta simply retiring from combat (which would be extremely out-of-character, since full-blooded Saiyans as a group are naturally combat junkies. It was never just a Goku thing. The retconned End of Z finale only reinforces this) and the only reason he was initially considering to sit out of the ToP was A) he wanted to wait until Bra was born and B) he wasn't aware of the stakes until it was time to leave for the World of Void. Also, He said "fuck Ultra Instinct" because he wanted to get stronger in his own way rather than copying Goku. He doesn't even seem to have any other hobbies beaides fighting anyway.

If there was any serious attempt to make Freeza Goku's new big rival then he would have gotten a major power-up to be a serious challenge to Goku in the ToP. Nor does there seem to be any serious attempt to redeem Freeza, since every appearance he makes in Modern DB only serves to reinforce how much of an evil scumbag he inherently is, especially in the DBS Broly movie.

3. Not wanting a character to be a badass warrior in a franchise that's literally centered around badass warriors is pure contrarianism. Giving a character all this high-potential and never have them use it is an example of bad writing, because if you arent ever gonna make full use of a character's plot elements, then said elements should have never been incorporated in the 1st place.

4. The entire point of Gohan's role in the Cell Games was becoming Goku's superior successor, him transitioning from a passive character to an active one, a protagonist that actually is interested in saving the world because it right (as opposed to Goku who only does so as an excuse to fight strong guys lol).

An even if you wanna use the "Gohan never wanted to be a fighter" argument, isn't a part of being a hero being always willing to do what they feel is right even if they don't enjoy it? Adult Gohan could have been Dragonball's equivalent to Spiderman (which was what many thought Great Saiyaman was leading into back in the early 90's), yet instead ended up as the franchise's most wasted character.

Future Trunks is basically what Adult Gohan should have been, in more ways than one.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

User avatar
Kagari
Regular
Posts: 697
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:11 pm
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Post by Kagari » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:29 pm

"Gohan never wanted to be a fighter" isn't really an argument anyway. It's a misunderstanding of what he said during the Cell games. He likes fighting, just not to the death like his father does. Super actually gets this right with Gohan excited during the exhibition and even before the tournament he does mention he's looking forward to testing himself against strong warriors from the other universes.

User avatar
MasenkoHA
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1387
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:48 pm

ruler9871 wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:03 am
Adult Gohan could have been Dragonball's equivalent to Spiderman (which was what many thought Great Saiyaman was leading into back in the early 90's), yet instead ended up as the franchise's most wasted character.
Great Saiyaman was a pastiche of Toku heroes like Kamen Rider and Super Sentai with some Superman thrown in and people thought he was going to be the equivalent of Spiderman...really? This is based on?
Future Trunks is basically what Adult Gohan should have been, in more ways than one.
Future Trunks as a character is built on growing up in a world where all his friends and family were killed by the cyborgs and he grew up in a world where nobody knows if they would see tomorrow. Hence why present Trunks acts nothing like him as he grew up in a different world as well as having Vegeta around to raise him.

It would make literally no sense for Gohan to act like Future Trunks.

You don’t have to like Gohan but his character makes sense for a guy who grew up mostly with Chi Chi’s influence outside of the few times he had to be called into battle.

Zephyr
I Live Here
Posts: 3537
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:20 pm

Re: For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Post by Zephyr » Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:49 pm

Kagari wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:47 pm
I don't care if he's the main character/strongest.
Fair enough, then.
ruler9871 wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:03 am
1. You are assuming that a man can't run a family and be a warrior/martial arts at the same time (even though nearly all warrior cultures in real life do just that.) You are making a false dichotomy.
I'm not assuming that. I'm pointing out that for a character to surpass Goku's training regimen, they would have to focus on training at least to the extent that he does. Which wouldn't really leave time to run a family. Throughout the entire original story, pretty much everyone eventually falls by the wayside in terms of being Goku's rival, because nobody is as single-minded about improving as a martial artist as Goku, and that's, in many ways, the entire point of his character.
ruler9871 wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:03 am
2. Your claims about Vegeta and Freeza simply don't hold up. Neither GT nor Super had Vegeta simply retiring from combat (which would be extremely out-of-character, since full-blooded Saiyans as a group are naturally combat junkies. It was never just a Goku thing. The retconned End of Z finale only reinforces this) and the only reason he was initially considering to sit out of the ToP was A) he wanted to wait until Bra was born and B) he wasn't aware of the stakes until it was time to leave for the World of Void. Also, He said "fuck Ultra Instinct" because he wanted to get stronger in his own way rather than copying Goku. He doesn't even seem to have any other hobbies beaides fighting anyway.
My "claims" are predictions, guy. Relax. Moreover, my Vegeta prediction is that his life will naturally eventually not revolve around The Fight™ anymore. That's distinct from 100% fully retiring from any martial arts whatsoever. Again, I said, in the block you quoted, that he will reach the point where he "doesn't have the time in the day to commit to the martial arts like Goku does". The really important part there is "like Goku does". I'm perfectly aware of what motivated his decisions with Bra and Ultra Instinct: not single-mindedly putting his improvement as a martial artist above all else, and giving up on something that he'd been trying to learn. Again: seeds.
ruler9871 wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:03 am
If there was any serious attempt to make Freeza Goku's new big rival then he would have gotten a major power-up to be a serious challenge to Goku in the ToP. Nor does there seem to be any serious attempt to redeem Freeza, since every appearance he makes in Modern DB only serves to reinforce how much of an evil scumbag he inherently is, especially in the DBS Broly movie.
Why would Freeza getting a new powerup as far back as the Tournament of Power be necessary for Freeza to eventually later on care more about improving himself as a martial artist than Vegeta, and thus entice Goku more? Why does anybody being depicted as "an evil scumbag" for X amount of stories entail that they will and must be depicted that way going forward? Why is this being pushed with so much certainty by someone who didn't anticipate Gohan switching back with Goku in the Boo arc? Why does Freeza have to be "redeemed" in order to not be an actively antagonistic force? Why is nuance dead?
ruler9871 wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:03 am
3. Not wanting a character to be a badass warrior in a franchise that's literally centered around badass warriors is pure contrarianism. Giving a character all this high-potential and never have them use it is an example of bad writing, because if you arent ever gonna make full use of a character's plot elements, then said elements should have never been incorporated in the 1st place.
"contrarianism"
"bad writing"
ok

Irony is a thing, and is allowed to exist in stories. Not every character in a martial arts story has to be a dedicated martial artist, let alone as dedicated a martial artist as Goku. Where's all of the righteous indignation surrounding characters like Bulma, Briefs, Tama, Taro, Uranai Baba, Oolong, Puar, etc. not being "badass warriors" in this "badass warriors franchise"? If non-combatants aren't allowed to exist, then why is this criticism of the work only being levied because Gohan became one?
ruler9871 wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:03 am
4. The entire point of Gohan's role in the Cell Games was becoming Goku's superior successor, him transitioning from a passive character to an active one, a protagonist that actually is interested in saving the world because it right (as opposed to Goku who only does so as an excuse to fight strong guys lol).

An even if you wanna use the "Gohan never wanted to be a fighter" argument, isn't a part of being a hero being always willing to do what they feel is right even if they don't enjoy it? Adult Gohan could have been Dragonball's equivalent to Spiderman (which was what many thought Great Saiyaman was leading into back in the early 90's), yet instead ended up as the franchise's most wasted character.
"wasted character"
ok

Dragon Ball is a martial arts story, not a superhero story. You act like Toriyama was just naturally working and building up toward Dragon Ball's grand transition into the superhero story The Fans™ had been waiting years for, or something. More irony for you: Gohan might be more motivated to "save the world" for its own sake than Goku, but it's Goku's stronger motivation to improve as a martial artist for its own sake that leads to him putting in more work on getting better at fighting, and thus renders him a more capable savior, even if a technically incidental one.

Not sure why this isn't allowed, tbh.

ruler9871
Regular
Posts: 669
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:45 pm

Re: For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Post by ruler9871 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:45 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:48 pm
snip
1. Toku heroes tend to have the same sense of Justice and Idealism that many Western Superheros like Spiderman and Superman have. Hence the comparison with Great Saiyaman and Spiderman stills holds up.

2 The point I was trying to make about Future Trunks was that that was how Gohan should have been used as an Adult character. Especially one initially intended to be the new protagonist.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

ruler9871
Regular
Posts: 669
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:45 pm

Re: For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Post by ruler9871 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:10 pm

Zephyr wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:49 pm

I'm not assuming that. I'm pointing out that for a character to surpass Goku's training regimen, they would have to focus on training at least to the extent that he does. Which wouldn't really leave time to run a family. Throughout the entire original story, pretty much everyone eventually falls by the wayside in terms of being Goku's rival, because nobody is as single-minded about improving as a martial artist as Goku, and that's, in many ways, the entire point of his character.

My "claims" are predictions, guy. Relax. Moreover, my Vegeta prediction is that his life will naturally eventually not revolve around The Fight™ anymore. That's distinct from 100% fully retiring from any martial arts whatsoever. Again, I said, in the block you quoted, that he will reach the point where he "doesn't have the time in the day to commit to the martial arts like Goku does". The really important part there is "like Goku does". I'm perfectly aware of what motivated his decisions with Bra and Ultra Instinct: not single-mindedly putting his improvement as a martial artist above all else, and giving up on something that he'd been trying to learn. Again: seeds.

Why would Freeza getting a new powerup as far back as the Tournament of Power be necessary for Freeza to eventually later on care more about improving himself as a martial artist than Vegeta, and thus entice Goku more? Why does anybody being depicted as "an evil scumbag" for X amount of stories entail that they will and must be depicted that way going forward? Why is this being pushed with so much certainty by someone who didn't anticipate Gohan switching back with Goku in the Boo arc? Why does Freeza have to be "redeemed" in order to not be an actively antagonistic force? Why is nuance dead?
1. Your predictions and the "seeds" you speak of are really just you projecting to much into the series , because if that was the direction those characters are gonna take then it would have already gone that route at the start of Super.

2. The point is that if Freeza was intended to become Goku's new rival tend he would have came back much stronger than he had. And Freeza has already taken up training for the reasons you stated after RoF, yet still hasn't become a threat nor rival for Goku as of now.
Zephyr wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:49 pm
"contrarianism"
"bad writing"
ok

Irony is a thing, and is allowed to exist in stories. Not every character in a martial arts story has to be a dedicated martial artist, let alone as dedicated a martial artist as Goku. Where's all of the righteous indignation surrounding characters like Bulma, Briefs, Tama, Taro, Uranai Baba, Oolong, Puar, etc. not being "badass warriors" in this "badass warriors franchise"? If non-combatants aren't allowed to exist, then why is this criticism of the work only being levied because Gohan became one?
Mentioning Bulma, Briefs, Tama, Taro, Uranai Baba, Oolong, Puar, etc is a false analogy because they were never written to be fighters of any type in the first place. So the comparison with Gohan (a guy initially meant to be better than Goku) doesn't work at all, nor was there anything intended irony with Gohan's portrayal in the Buu saga.

Zephyr wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:49 pm
"wasted character"
ok

Dragon Ball is a martial arts story, not a superhero story. You act like Toriyama was just naturally working and building up toward Dragon Ball's grand transition into the superhero story The Fans™ had been waiting years for, or something. More irony for you: Gohan might be more motivated to "save the world" for its own sake than Goku, but it's Goku's stronger motivation to improve as a martial artist for its own sake that leads to him putting in more work on getting better at fighting, and thus renders him a more capable savior, even if a technically incidental one.

Not sure why this isn't allowed, tbh.
Nobody said a thing about Dragonball becoming a Superhero story. In fact, the fact that DB is a martial arts story only makes the waste of Gohan even worse, since he as the intended new protagonist should have become more motivated to improve as a martial artist out of necessity (sort-of like how Future Trunks did post-Z). And even if there was any intended irony with Gohan, that still doesn't make it good writing.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

User avatar
Cure Dragon 255
I Live Here
Posts: 3441
Joined: Thu May 03, 2012 5:23 pm

Re: For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:11 pm

ruler9871 wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:10 pm
Zephyr wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:49 pm

I'm not assuming that. I'm pointing out that for a character to surpass Goku's training regimen, they would have to focus on training at least to the extent that he does. Which wouldn't really leave time to run a family. Throughout the entire original story, pretty much everyone eventually falls by the wayside in terms of being Goku's rival, because nobody is as single-minded about improving as a martial artist as Goku, and that's, in many ways, the entire point of his character.

My "claims" are predictions, guy. Relax. Moreover, my Vegeta prediction is that his life will naturally eventually not revolve around The Fight™ anymore. That's distinct from 100% fully retiring from any martial arts whatsoever. Again, I said, in the block you quoted, that he will reach the point where he "doesn't have the time in the day to commit to the martial arts like Goku does". The really important part there is "like Goku does". I'm perfectly aware of what motivated his decisions with Bra and Ultra Instinct: not single-mindedly putting his improvement as a martial artist above all else, and giving up on something that he'd been trying to learn. Again: seeds.

Why would Freeza getting a new powerup as far back as the Tournament of Power be necessary for Freeza to eventually later on care more about improving himself as a martial artist than Vegeta, and thus entice Goku more? Why does anybody being depicted as "an evil scumbag" for X amount of stories entail that they will and must be depicted that way going forward? Why is this being pushed with so much certainty by someone who didn't anticipate Gohan switching back with Goku in the Boo arc? Why does Freeza have to be "redeemed" in order to not be an actively antagonistic force? Why is nuance dead?
1. Your predictions and the "seeds" you speak of are really just you projecting to much into the series , because if that was the direction those characters are gonna take then it would have already gone that route at the start of Super.

2. The point is that if Freeza was intended to become Goku's new rival tend he would have came back much stronger than he had. And Freeza has already taken up training for the reasons you stated after RoF, yet still hasn't become a threat nor rival for Goku as of now.
Zephyr wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:49 pm
"contrarianism"
"bad writing"
ok

Irony is a thing, and is allowed to exist in stories. Not every character in a martial arts story has to be a dedicated martial artist, let alone as dedicated a martial artist as Goku. Where's all of the righteous indignation surrounding characters like Bulma, Briefs, Tama, Taro, Uranai Baba, Oolong, Puar, etc. not being "badass warriors" in this "badass warriors franchise"? If non-combatants aren't allowed to exist, then why is this criticism of the work only being levied because Gohan became one?
Mentioning Bulma, Briefs, Tama, Taro, Uranai Baba, Oolong, Puar, etc is a false analogy because they were never written to be fighters of any type in the first place. So the comparison with Gohan (a guy initially meant to be better than Goku) doesn't work at all, nor was there anything intended irony with Gohan's portrayal in the Buu saga.

Zephyr wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:49 pm
"wasted character"
ok

Dragon Ball is a martial arts story, not a superhero story. You act like Toriyama was just naturally working and building up toward Dragon Ball's grand transition into the superhero story The Fans™ had been waiting years for, or something. More irony for you: Gohan might be more motivated to "save the world" for its own sake than Goku, but it's Goku's stronger motivation to improve as a martial artist for its own sake that leads to him putting in more work on getting better at fighting, and thus renders him a more capable savior, even if a technically incidental one.

Not sure why this isn't allowed, tbh.
Nobody said a thing about Dragonball becoming a Superhero story. In fact, the fact that DB is a martial arts story only makes the waste of Gohan even worse, since he as the intended new protagonist should have become more motivated to improve as a martial artist out of necessity (sort-of like how Future Trunks did post-Z). And even if there was any intended irony with Gohan, that still doesn't make it good writing.
He is not nor he has ever been intended to take Goku's place as the protagonist. Stop it with the fanfic narratives.
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:I will not be satisfied until my pessimism crushes your spirit.
90sDBZ wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm
19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

ruler9871
Regular
Posts: 669
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:45 pm

Re: For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Post by ruler9871 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:10 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:11 pm
ruler9871 wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:10 pm
Zephyr wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:49 pm

I'm not assuming that. I'm pointing out that for a character to surpass Goku's training regimen, they would have to focus on training at least to the extent that he does. Which wouldn't really leave time to run a family. Throughout the entire original story, pretty much everyone eventually falls by the wayside in terms of being Goku's rival, because nobody is as single-minded about improving as a martial artist as Goku, and that's, in many ways, the entire point of his character.

My "claims" are predictions, guy. Relax. Moreover, my Vegeta prediction is that his life will naturally eventually not revolve around The Fight™ anymore. That's distinct from 100% fully retiring from any martial arts whatsoever. Again, I said, in the block you quoted, that he will reach the point where he "doesn't have the time in the day to commit to the martial arts like Goku does". The really important part there is "like Goku does". I'm perfectly aware of what motivated his decisions with Bra and Ultra Instinct: not single-mindedly putting his improvement as a martial artist above all else, and giving up on something that he'd been trying to learn. Again: seeds.

Why would Freeza getting a new powerup as far back as the Tournament of Power be necessary for Freeza to eventually later on care more about improving himself as a martial artist than Vegeta, and thus entice Goku more? Why does anybody being depicted as "an evil scumbag" for X amount of stories entail that they will and must be depicted that way going forward? Why is this being pushed with so much certainty by someone who didn't anticipate Gohan switching back with Goku in the Boo arc? Why does Freeza have to be "redeemed" in order to not be an actively antagonistic force? Why is nuance dead?
1. Your predictions and the "seeds" you speak of are really just you projecting to much into the series , because if that was the direction those characters are gonna take then it would have already gone that route at the start of Super.

2. The point is that if Freeza was intended to become Goku's new rival tend he would have came back much stronger than he had. And Freeza has already taken up training for the reasons you stated after RoF, yet still hasn't become a threat nor rival for Goku as of now.
Zephyr wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:49 pm
"contrarianism"
"bad writing"
ok

Irony is a thing, and is allowed to exist in stories. Not every character in a martial arts story has to be a dedicated martial artist, let alone as dedicated a martial artist as Goku. Where's all of the righteous indignation surrounding characters like Bulma, Briefs, Tama, Taro, Uranai Baba, Oolong, Puar, etc. not being "badass warriors" in this "badass warriors franchise"? If non-combatants aren't allowed to exist, then why is this criticism of the work only being levied because Gohan became one?
Mentioning Bulma, Briefs, Tama, Taro, Uranai Baba, Oolong, Puar, etc is a false analogy because they were never written to be fighters of any type in the first place. So the comparison with Gohan (a guy initially meant to be better than Goku) doesn't work at all, nor was there anything intended irony with Gohan's portrayal in the Buu saga.

Zephyr wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:49 pm
"wasted character"
ok

Dragon Ball is a martial arts story, not a superhero story. You act like Toriyama was just naturally working and building up toward Dragon Ball's grand transition into the superhero story The Fans™ had been waiting years for, or something. More irony for you: Gohan might be more motivated to "save the world" for its own sake than Goku, but it's Goku's stronger motivation to improve as a martial artist for its own sake that leads to him putting in more work on getting better at fighting, and thus renders him a more capable savior, even if a technically incidental one.

Not sure why this isn't allowed, tbh.
Nobody said a thing about Dragonball becoming a Superhero story. In fact, the fact that DB is a martial arts story only makes the waste of Gohan even worse, since he as the intended new protagonist should have become more motivated to improve as a martial artist out of necessity (sort-of like how Future Trunks did post-Z). And even if there was any intended irony with Gohan, that still doesn't make it good writing.
He is not nor he has ever been intended to take Goku's place as the protagonist. Stop it with the fanfic narratives.
Toriyama flat-out stated he made Gohan the new protaginst during the Cell Games but switch back to Goku halfway into the Buu Saga:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKw3ZiAfKNk

You are the one in denial.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

User avatar
Cure Dragon 255
I Live Here
Posts: 3441
Joined: Thu May 03, 2012 5:23 pm

Re: For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:56 pm

I'm not in denial, I just never saw that interview. Sorry!
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:I will not be satisfied until my pessimism crushes your spirit.
90sDBZ wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm
19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

User avatar
Saiga
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8236
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:36 pm
Location: Space Australia

Re: For those dissatisfied with Gohan in the Super anime, state your reasons here.

Post by Saiga » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:40 pm

I'm not assuming that. I'm pointing out that for a character to surpass Goku's training regimen, they would have to focus on training at least to the extent that he does. Which wouldn't really leave time to run a family. Throughout the entire original story, pretty much everyone eventually falls by the wayside in terms of being Goku's rival, because nobody is as single-minded about improving as a martial artist as Goku, and that's, in many ways, the entire point of his character.
This is a huge assumption and it's not really supported by anything. There is nothing stated in the series about how much training is needed to keep up with Goku, and there are many things that contradict such an idea:

- A lot of Goku's power has come from benefits aside from his training, such as Saiyan-exclusive transformations, having his dormant power brought out or simply developing faster than other characters
- Piccolo has been noted as basically doing nothing but training, but he can't keep up with the Saiyan's higher forms.
- Freeza surpassed Goku with far, far less training and without the benefits of a God form
- Gohan started out much weaker than Goku in the ROSAT, and surpassed him by a wide margin while they did the same training

Most people can't keep up with Goku because they're just not as special as him, no matter what they do. Gohan is explicitly more special than Goku.

With the same amount of training, he'd always be better than Goku. Therefore, just to keep up with Goku would take comparatively less training. I can't definitively state whether that would be something he can comfortably balance with his family and working needs, but by the same token there is no way to definitely state that Gohan can't do those things and still keep up. There's nothing in the series to rule that out.

So there is nothing wrong with the idea - narratively or in-universe - of Gohan being able to balance his family life with being one of the strongest characters.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!

Post Reply