What's canon?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Tylerman29
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Re: What's canon?

Post by Tylerman29 » Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:34 pm

Majin Buu wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:43 pm
I like quite a few of the movies a lot, but that doesn't mean I need them to exist in the story proper, and I've never really understood this desire many fans have to force them to work as such when they clearly weren't designed to. What's wrong with just letting them be their own thing that exists outside of the story proper?
Well speaking from my experience personally, I think there is a desire these days to have a cohesive consistent canon. I think it helps make franchises stronger and provides a richer lore to explore and be involved in. For example Star Wars, the MCU, DCEU etc. There is a certain satisfaction knowing something "counts" and will have repercussions going forward. It's probably a modern western audience perspective, and not how the Japanese view their entertainment, especially for something like Dragon Ball, which is for kids primarily. I do believe however, that since the modern "revival" of Dragon Ball that Toei is starting to at least try to make things like the new movies "canon" now.

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Re: What's canon?

Post by sintzu » Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:23 pm

Tylerman29 wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:34 pm
I think there is a desire these days to have a cohesive consistent canon. I think it helps make franchises stronger and provides a richer lore to explore and be involved in.
This 100%. I don't need the movies to count now as Super is doing more than enough to expand the lore with new content but back then you had to take what you could get. If someone doesn't like Super then it probably matters to them that these movies count.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

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Re: What's canon?

Post by Majin Buu » Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:39 pm

Tylerman29 wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:34 pm
There is a certain satisfaction knowing something "counts" and will have repercussions going forward.
This sounds to me like a failure to accept the nature of these movies as non-serial movies that weren't made to interact with the story proper in that way.

It's like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole: Even if you try to force it in, it's never going to fit right, because it just wasn't designed to.

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Re: What's canon?

Post by Tylerman29 » Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:30 pm

Majin Buu wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:39 pm
Tylerman29 wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:34 pm
There is a certain satisfaction knowing something "counts" and will have repercussions going forward.
This sounds to me like a failure to accept the nature of these movies as non-serial movies that weren't made to interact with the story proper in that way.

It's like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole: Even if you try to force it in, it's never going to fit right, because it just wasn't designed to.
If you are talking about me specifically, I fully accept the Z movies as being fun side stories that are inconsequential. I'm providing a reason some people, especially those new to the fandom, might want them to count. And I wasn't really talking about the movies in particular but rather why people like things in general to be "canon" and why canon is important to some people.

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Re: What's canon?

Post by PsionicWarrior » Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:50 pm

A canon is important for things to make sense and keep a somewhat coherent universe lol

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Re: What's canon?

Post by Grimlock » Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:58 pm

... Which is why only official entities can establish a canon, not mere fans.
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Re: What's canon?

Post by PsionicWarrior » Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:56 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:58 pm
... Which is why only official entities can establish a canon, not mere fans.
You don't need an official statement to know the original manga is canon

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Re: What's canon?

Post by Grimlock » Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:56 am

Maybe, but you also mentioned these other works. Where is the statement regarding all the other works?
PsionicWarrior wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:39 pm
Jaco and a few specials are canon, Super is canon (all three medias, which is confusing as ****), and that's it. Everyone who tells you otherwise like GT or other similar stuff is wrong, period.
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sintzu
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Re: What's canon?

Post by sintzu » Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:02 am

Grimlock wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:56 am
Maybe, but you also mentioned these other works. Where is the statement regarding all the other works?
PsionicWarrior wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:39 pm
Jaco and a few specials are canon, Super is canon (all three medias, which is confusing as ****), and that's it. Everyone who tells you otherwise like GT or other similar stuff is wrong, period.
I think Canon depends on who the writer is. Toriyama is currently the head writer so whatever he writes is what counts. Once he steps down, someone else may drop everything not in the manga and start a new continuation or even reboot the story completely.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

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Re: What's canon?

Post by Grimlock » Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:13 am

sintzu wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:02 am
I think Canon depends on who the writer is. Toriyama is currently the head writer so whatever he writes is what counts. Once he steps down, someone else may drop everything not in the manga and start a new continuation or even reboot the story completely.
I can already see a lot of problems with that:

• If canon is determined by the one in charge then there isn't a canon after all (or everything is canonical, we'd still be in square one here).
• Even if the above were the case, we would still have to deal with people saying that only what Toriyama did was canonical, the purists.
• In the unlikely reboot scenario, will people be bound by the past Dragon Ball or ignore it?

And we can't forget that this franchise has the "alternate dimension" concept, as long as it exists, everything is still possible no matter what.
Games - You are weak. Why are you weak?
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Re: What's canon?

Post by PsionicWarrior » Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:29 am

You're making this overly complicated mate, "canon" is everything and everyone in the original storyline of the Dragon Ball manga made by Akira Toriyama and products simply stated as canon by him, which includes the other works I mentioned. I am sorry but if we can't even agree that at the very least the original manga is canon we are not going to get above the fishy fan theories and all that crap lol

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Re: What's canon?

Post by Majin Buu » Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:17 am

Tylerman29 wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:30 pm
I'm providing a reason some people, especially those new to the fandom, might want them to count. And I wasn't really talking about the movies in particular but rather why people like things in general to be "canon" and why canon is important to some people.
This general mindset is what I'm responding to, not you specifically.

To clarify, I don't think that canon as a general concept is unimportant, it is important. It's just that when it comes to Dragon Ball, it's such a clusterfuck of an issue that I don't think it's worth it to even care at this point. After all, not even the original creator cares enough to straighten all this out for clarification. At this point people can more or less pick and chose what they consider canon, I just think it's silly to try to make the movies fit into that since they clearly aren't supposed to.

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Re: What's canon?

Post by Grimlock » Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:43 am

PsionicWarrior wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:29 am
You're making this overly complicated mate, "canon" is everything and everyone in the original storyline of the Dragon Ball manga made by Akira Toriyama and products simply stated as canon by him, which includes the other works I mentioned. I am sorry but if we can't even agree that at the very least the original manga is canon we are not going to get above the fishy fan theories and all that crap lol
No, I'm making this the basic, what is usual in most (if not all) franchises, a canon is establish by official statements, not by fans statements, fans don't decide anything. You once again says here that there is a statement regarding the other works, I'll once again ask you then to provide, to prove, to post such statement here, I really would like to take a look at the supposed canon this franchise has. I can't just take your word for it, you are not Toriyama, you don't work for Shueisha. I want you to back it up your claim, prove me that I'm wrong once and for all, otherwise it will be just your opinion presented as a fact, which you shouldn't be doing.
Games - You are weak. Why are you weak?
Dragon Ball Super - *coughes*
Games - Because you lack... Content.

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Re: What's canon?

Post by PsionicWarrior » Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:19 am

I don't need to prove you wrong but honestly it's two seconds, also common sense really... Anyways hope this has enough sources for you :

https://dragonballuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Canon

I find it odd that you never came across these quotes because it's really easy to find

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Re: What's canon?

Post by Grimlock » Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:37 pm

Are you using wiki as your legit source? :|
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Re: What's canon?

Post by PsionicWarrior » Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:24 pm

Just read it you have all the legit references in there so why should I bother I'm not going to paste it all out for you you have your answer there now you're just putting bad faith into it

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Re: What's canon?

Post by PsionicWarrior » Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:23 am

Lol it's funny I'm myself learning from this, I didn't know the canon had been officially revealed, but to be fair it is relatively recent
The Tokyo Skytree + Viz North America Tour is a special promotional event that is running from November 1, 2018 until January 7, 2019 as a promotion for the twentieth overall Dragon Ball film, Dragon Ball Super: Broly.

Importance

During the event, the official canon history of the Dragon Ball franchise was revealed. The expose included a History of Dragon Ball timeline confirming the events of the Dragon Ball Super manga to be the "canon sequel" (正統続編, seitō zokuhen; Literally meaning "legitimate sequel") to Akira Toriyama's Dragon Ball manga.
Now if you can read further you'll see it confirms everything I've been saying for years lol

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Re: What's canon?

Post by Goten_jr » Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:38 pm

PsionicWarrior wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:23 am
Lol it's funny I'm myself learning from this, I didn't know the canon had been officially revealed, but to be fair it is relatively recent
The Tokyo Skytree + Viz North America Tour is a special promotional event that is running from November 1, 2018 until January 7, 2019 as a promotion for the twentieth overall Dragon Ball film, Dragon Ball Super: Broly.

Importance

During the event, the official canon history of the Dragon Ball franchise was revealed. The expose included a History of Dragon Ball timeline confirming the events of the Dragon Ball Super manga to be the "canon sequel" (正統続編, seitō zokuhen; Literally meaning "legitimate sequel") to Akira Toriyama's Dragon Ball manga.
Now if you can read further you'll see it confirms everything I've been saying for years lol
why is rof not included ?

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PsionicWarrior
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Re: What's canon?

Post by PsionicWarrior » Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:06 pm

Goten_jr wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:38 pm
why is rof not included ?
Toriyama has confirmed that the events of Dragon Ball Z: Revival of "F" are a canonical continuation of his manga, as well.[3]
It is included, why people have such a hard time to read lol

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Re: What's canon?

Post by wolflonnie » Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:27 pm

DB -> DBZ -> DBS (choose manga or anime) -> Broly -> DBS manga Moro saga thus far.

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