DBS Goku: Dumber, Smarter Or The Same Compared To DBZ?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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DBS Goku: Dumber, Smarter Or The Same Compared To DBZ?

Post by Nokra » Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:02 pm

Goku honestly feels the same as he was from DBZ. Although he is probably even smarter when it comes to fighting than he was in DBZ. And at least he doesn't constantly make really dumb decisions like letting enemies who killed his friends/family live or giving senzu beans to enemies who are threats to the entire world just so they can have a "fair fight". What do you all think?

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Re: DBS Goku: Dumber, Smarter Or The Same Compared To DBZ?

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:42 pm

Nokra wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:02 pm
Goku honestly feels the same as he was from DBZ. Although he is probably even smarter when it comes to fighting than he was in DBZ. And at least he doesn't constantly make really dumb decisions like letting enemies who killed his friends/family live or giving senzu beans to enemies who are threats to the entire world just so they can have a "fair fight". What do you all think?
He offered Freeza a chance to leave In F AFTER seeing that he killed Piccolo and was about to kill Gohan

Forgave Jiren 2 minutes after the "Those who try to hurt my friends, I can never forgive" speech

He's the same as he was in Z part of the story , at times do they go a bit overboard with his "wakwak sunah" line? yeah sure but he's always been a fight obsessed idiot and even the characterization stuff about him not kissing chichi/knowing when his kids were born or even wondering why vegeta cared about that is perfectly in line with how toriyama has described him

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Re: DBS Goku: Dumber, Smarter Or The Same Compared To DBZ?

Post by PsionicWarrior » Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:23 am

Definitely dumber lol

It's like all the maturity he gained through Z never happened

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Re: DBS Goku: Dumber, Smarter Or The Same Compared To DBZ?

Post by sintzu » Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:18 am

Apart from his looks, he's nothing like he was in the manga. His kid self during the 22nd Tenkaichi acted a lot more serious, mature & smarter than the current Goku does. A great example was how he was observing Roshi's fight with Tien and the comments he was making on it. You could really tell that the 3 years he spent alone helped him grow. All you've got to see is how he was acting around Zamasu when he went to see him with Beerus to know that every piece of development he went through in the manga was thrown out the window. Then again, Super exaggerated everyone's flaws to the point where they've become a meme of themselves so Goku isn't the only one who regressed from his manga days.
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Re: DBS Goku: Dumber, Smarter Or The Same Compared To DBZ?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:38 am

Goku acted like an actual retard when he met Zamasu for the first time. He was constantly spouting dumb stuff out of his mouth, he was repeatedly harassing Zamasu despite the Kai's pleas to leave him alone, he couldn't understand that a God must be treated with respect, etc. It wasn't even funny.

After that, Goku showed some degree of intellect, such as when he was the first to realize that Zeno wasn't going to erase just Infinite Zamasu, but the entire multiverse. Still, It's like the writers sometimes actually wanted to make me hate Goku by writing him like a complete idiot. There's no excuse for his behaviour in episode 53.

Sure Z Goku was also childish and easy-going, but he still understood that Gods were important people that should be respected.
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Re: DBS Goku: Dumber, Smarter Or The Same Compared To DBZ?

Post by nickzambuto » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:01 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:38 am
Goku acted like an actual retard when he met Zamasu for the first time. He was constantly spouting dumb stuff out of his mouth, he was repeatedly harassing Zamasu despite the Kai's pleas to leave him alone, he couldn't understand that a God must be treated with respect, etc. It wasn't even funny.

After that, Goku showed some degree of intellect, such as when he was the first to realize that Zeno wasn't going to erase just Infinite Zamasu, but the entire multiverse. Still, It's like the writers sometimes actually wanted to make me hate Goku by writing him like a complete idiot. There's no excuse for his behaviour in episode 53.

Sure Z Goku was also childish and easy-going, but he still understood that Gods were important people that should be respected.
I might actually say that is part of Goku's character arc. He takes the gods less seriously now in light of the overwhelming power he has achieved.

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Re: DBS Goku: Dumber, Smarter Or The Same Compared To DBZ?

Post by Michsi » Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:09 pm

I feel like his character in Super has gone through the same flanderization that happened to Chichi in the anime.
His most evident character traits are that he is a fight-obsessed , unrefined hick and therefor that is what people mostly remember him for. That he is goofy. And I guess the same thing applies to his writers cuz they love focusing on that. His wiser and serious side had a more subtle presence in the original.
It might be also that they upped his goofiness in order to contrast Vegeta's more serious personality. In the original, it was Goku that was always the more level headed and mature of the two, but I guess if they're going for funny man/straight man dynamic , they can't have Vegeta be the funny man.

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Re: DBS Goku: Dumber, Smarter Or The Same Compared To DBZ?

Post by Tai Lung » Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:57 pm

Really .. yeah, goku is The Same Compared with Z in mostly ..
-You know ... , Goku gave Cell a Senzu Bean, risking that he could become stronger than his son gohan because Cell has zenkai.
- He also decided not to follow the advice of bulma to find Dr Gero 3 years before his appearance that even though gero belonged to the Red ribbon the group of people who hurt the innocent.
-Goku could beat fat buu at the time but he preferred not to do it to leave that problem to goten and trunks since they were alive and they had a lot of power to merge in gotenks .. but there was an obvious error of calculation ... "they are children" ..
-later ... goku destroyed The Potara Earrings to fight with kid buu besides taking turns with vegeta even though buu had destroyed the earth previously.

yes ... goku is more of a warrior so it is in his personality to be like that ... sometimes he does not measure the consequences those are his faults but he is a genius in martial arts that is why he has come so far and demonstrated it in his fight with hit where he desmotraria his strategy and skill in combat.

although you can also find a personality difference between the goku that ended the series z and the one that started the Buu arc.

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Re: DBS Goku: Dumber, Smarter Or The Same Compared To DBZ?

Post by PFM18 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:52 pm

He's identical. Absolutely nothing about him is different from the original manga. Goku has always been a complete idiot, and he has always loved to fight even if this love risks the well being of other people. Those traits are clearly represented in Super, and has not veered much if any away from the conventional image of the character.

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Re: DBS Goku: Dumber, Smarter Or The Same Compared To DBZ?

Post by supersaiyanZero » Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:54 am

PFM18 wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:52 pm
He's identical. Absolutely nothing about him is different from the original manga. Goku has always been a complete idiot, and he has always loved to fight even if this love risks the well being of other people. Those traits are clearly represented in Super, and has not veered much if any away from the conventional image of the character.

How are you able to say this with a straight face? I'm honestly asking. Goku was an embarrassment in Super, but he's just following the trend where the writers took the loudest traits of each character and magnified them to the point of a caricature.

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Re: DBS Goku: Dumber, Smarter Or The Same Compared To DBZ?

Post by MegaBossMan » Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:08 pm

I think it's less that perhaps he's regressed (barring certain episodes penned by certain members of Super's writing staff), and more that he's been naturally enabled throughout most of the course of Super. Super's primarily composed of low tension situations where Beerus is literally spectating for a majority of it, and with the exciting and powerful potpourri of literally universe-expansive fighters out there, Goku's living in a literal dream. Admittedly I think he's lost a lot of his planning abilities from the Buu saga, but in high-stakes moments such as Goku Black seeming like an unstoppable force in Trunks's future or when the reality of the Tournament of Power becomes reiterated, he doesn't act uncharacteristically stupid or naive. It simply comes across to me that there are just less of these grim opportunities for Goku's mature side to flex in. We're getting a Goku that reacts appropriately to stories with primarily circumstances where there's few things at stake and can indulge himself entirely to his greatest vice wholeheartedly. We have a Goku that looks to Freeza in the Resurrection F arc and can say "I normally get excited fighting powerful opponents, but for you, I just can't stand such an evil guy." That's enough thoughtfulness I need out of my Goku, and while I have more than enough qualms with Super's overall writing production, I can handwave most of Goku's characterization issues aside when I feel the circumstances call for a more leisurely set of behavior. He's stupid when it's okay for him to be stupid, and just smart enough in situations where it'd be grating otherwise.
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Re: DBS Goku: Dumber, Smarter Or The Same Compared To DBZ?

Post by wolflonnie » Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:37 pm

MegaBossMan wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:08 pm
I think it's less that perhaps he's regressed (barring certain episodes penned by certain members of Super's writing staff), and more that he's been naturally enabled throughout most of the course of Super. Super's primarily composed of low tension situations where Beerus is literally spectating for a majority of it, and with the exciting and powerful potpourri of literally universe-expansive fighters out there, Goku's living in a literal dream. Admittedly I think he's lost a lot of his planning abilities from the Buu saga, but in high-stakes moments such as Goku Black seeming like an unstoppable force in Trunks's future or when the reality of the Tournament of Power becomes reiterated, he doesn't act uncharacteristically stupid or naive. It simply comes across to me that there are just less of these grim opportunities for Goku's mature side to flex in. We're getting a Goku that reacts appropriately to stories with primarily circumstances where there's few things at stake and can indulge himself entirely to his greatest vice wholeheartedly. We have a Goku that looks to Freeza in the Resurrection F arc and can say "I normally get excited fighting powerful opponents, but for you, I just can't stand such an evil guy." That's enough thoughtfulness I need out of my Goku, and while I have more than enough qualms with Super's overall writing production, I can handwave most of Goku's characterization issues aside when I feel the circumstances call for a more leisurely set of behavior. He's stupid when it's okay for him to be stupid, and just smart enough in situations where it'd be grating otherwise.
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Re: DBS Goku: Dumber, Smarter Or The Same Compared To DBZ?

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:24 pm

I'd say Goku in Super acts more naive and excitable in certains scenarios than he did in the past. He still displays how much of a savant in combat he can be when it's needed, but it's very apparent during the "downtime" periods that he adopts a much more laid back and nonchalant approach.

You can perhaps handwave this attitude with the leisure that he has attained over the years; being that he has several safety nets to fall back with the Earth, Namekian and Super Dragon Balls at his disposal. Not to mention he's practically rubbing shoulders with every high-ranking Dragon Ball deity in the pantheon that offers some kind of advantage or "Get Out Of Jail Free" card.

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Re: DBS Goku: Dumber, Smarter Or The Same Compared To DBZ?

Post by PsionicWarrior » Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:19 pm

... I miss the time when I could look up to Goku as a source of inspiration instead of having the full series mocking him lol

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PFM18 wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:52 pm
He's identical. Absolutely nothing about him is different from the original manga. Goku has always been a complete idiot, and he has always loved to fight even if this love risks the well being of other people. Those traits are clearly represented in Super, and has not veered much if any away from the conventional image of the character.
This is so ignorant it is actually offensive,
You do realize you’re talking about the guy who at one point could read through minds or converted an evil, tortured, full of hatred individual into a protector of the earth and caring father right lol
Goku used to be the guy who beat Piccolo Daimao, who arrived on Namek wearing the vengeance from all Namekians and all Saiyans on his shoulders, who sacrificed himself with the concern of leaving a legacy, and so on, he used to be the archetype of the shonen hero, the container of all hopes, the ultimate savior, the Superman or Captain America made in Japan lol
He sure did a few questionable calls and can act dumb at times but in Super he is nowhere close to be what he is in the original manga, in Super he is just a cliché, it's like his brain reversed to his 5 yo self without notice lol

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Re: DBS Goku: Dumber, Smarter Or The Same Compared To DBZ?

Post by Kanassa » Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:52 pm

He acts goofy in his downtime and serious when the situation calls for it, so yeah, the same excitable idiot he was in Z. Oh, wait, he's a bit forgetful, so obviously he's a pants-shitting retard.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:


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Re: DBS Goku: Dumber, Smarter Or The Same Compared To DBZ?

Post by Tai Lung » Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:01 pm

supersaiyanZero wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:54 am
PFM18 wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:52 pm
He's identical. Absolutely nothing about him is different from the original manga. Goku has always been a complete idiot, and he has always loved to fight even if this love risks the well being of other people. Those traits are clearly represented in Super, and has not veered much if any away from the conventional image of the character.
How are you able to say this with a straight face? I'm honestly asking. Goku was an embarrassment in Super, but he's just following the trend where the writers took the loudest traits of each character and magnified them to the point of a caricature.

since taking into account their errors in z
Tai Lung wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:57 pm
Really .. yeah, goku is The Same Compared with Z in mostly ..
-You know ... , Goku gave Cell a Senzu Bean, risking that he could become stronger than his son gohan because Cell has zenkai.
- He also decided not to follow the advice of bulma to find Dr Gero 3 years before his appearance that even though gero belonged to the Red ribbon the group of people who hurt the innocent.
-Goku could beat fat buu at the time but he preferred not to do it to leave that problem to goten and trunks since they were alive and they had a lot of power to merge in gotenks .. but there was an obvious error of calculation ... "they are children" ..
-later ... goku destroyed The Potara Earrings to fight with kid buu besides taking turns with vegeta even though buu had destroyed the earth previously.

yes ... goku is more of a warrior so it is in his personality to be like that ... sometimes he does not measure the consequences those are his faults but he is a genius in martial arts that is why he has come so far and demonstrated it in his fight with hit where he desmotraria his strategy and skill in combat.

although you can also find a personality difference between the goku that ended the series z and the one that started the Buu arc.

if it's really the same

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Re: DBS Goku: Dumber, Smarter Or The Same Compared To DBZ?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:16 am

nickzambuto wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:01 am
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:38 am
Goku acted like an actual retard when he met Zamasu for the first time. He was constantly spouting dumb stuff out of his mouth, he was repeatedly harassing Zamasu despite the Kai's pleas to leave him alone, he couldn't understand that a God must be treated with respect, etc. It wasn't even funny.

After that, Goku showed some degree of intellect, such as when he was the first to realize that Zeno wasn't going to erase just Infinite Zamasu, but the entire multiverse. Still, It's like the writers sometimes actually wanted to make me hate Goku by writing him like a complete idiot. There's no excuse for his behaviour in episode 53.

Sure Z Goku was also childish and easy-going, but he still understood that Gods were important people that should be respected.
I might actually say that is part of Goku's character arc. He takes the gods less seriously now in light of the overwhelming power he has achieved.
Doesn't make sense though. He was strong as hell in Z though, yet it's not like was touching and harassing Shin and Old Kai when he met them. He was a much more serious individual.
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Re: DBS Goku: Dumber, Smarter Or The Same Compared To DBZ?

Post by Tai Lung » Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:42 am

in zamasu arc goku leaves aside the saiyan pride and came up with the merger to defeat it.
He discovered how to counteract the hit techniques without anyone telling him.
in addition to using their energy techniques in the TOP arc in a way to fight in the air without having to fly.

all that seems to me of someone quite ready.

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Re: DBS Goku: Dumber, Smarter Or The Same Compared To DBZ?

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:32 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:16 am
nickzambuto wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:01 am
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:38 am
Goku acted like an actual retard when he met Zamasu for the first time. He was constantly spouting dumb stuff out of his mouth, he was repeatedly harassing Zamasu despite the Kai's pleas to leave him alone, he couldn't understand that a God must be treated with respect, etc. It wasn't even funny.

After that, Goku showed some degree of intellect, such as when he was the first to realize that Zeno wasn't going to erase just Infinite Zamasu, but the entire multiverse. Still, It's like the writers sometimes actually wanted to make me hate Goku by writing him like a complete idiot. There's no excuse for his behaviour in episode 53.

Sure Z Goku was also childish and easy-going, but he still understood that Gods were important people that should be respected.
I might actually say that is part of Goku's character arc. He takes the gods less seriously now in light of the overwhelming power he has achieved.
Doesn't make sense though. He was strong as hell in Z though, yet it's not like was touching and harassing Shin and Old Kai when he met them. He was a much more serious individual.
The first thing Goku does when he sees Elder Kaioshin is blast him in the face to test how strong he is.

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Re: DBS Goku: Dumber, Smarter Or The Same Compared To DBZ?

Post by kemuri07 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:22 am

Considering the amount of times this topic comes up..

Context. context. context. context, is so important when talking about Goku's character. Because it's not simply about how Goku has gotten "dumber," it's whether or not whoever was writing him had an understanding of what made Goku the popular character he is today. And there's a fundamental difference in how he's written in DB/Z and how he's written in Super. And I've made it quite clear that I absolutely detest how he's written in Super because it reduces him into an arrogant, idiot but he's also the main character so he has to be the fucking greatest of all time.

Part of what makes Goku so damn enduring in the original run of Dragon Ball is that no matter how powerful he gets, there's this down to earth quality that makes him immensely likable and charismatic. You want him to succeed and you want him to wipe that smile off of the face that jerk he's fighting. More importantly, his flaws are "treated like flaws." Goku's good-natured personality costs him all of the time, as he misjudges people because he takes people for what they are.

That does not happen in Super. In Super we're supposed to see Goku as a shining god, and when he does fuck up, the show lets him off the hook. It makes him less endearing and more like an asshole. A powerful man-child who just shrugs his way out of every problem because "He's Goku."

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