DBS Goku: Dumber, Smarter Or The Same Compared To DBZ?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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DHM211
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Re: DBS Goku: Dumber, Smarter Or The Same Compared To DBZ?

Post by DHM211 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:26 am

Nokra wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:02 pm
Goku honestly feels the same as he was from DBZ. Although he is probably even smarter when it comes to fighting than he was in DBZ. And at least he doesn't constantly make really dumb decisions like letting enemies who killed his friends/family live or giving senzu beans to enemies who are threats to the entire world just so they can have a "fair fight". What do you all think?
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Re: DBS Goku: Dumber, Smarter Or The Same Compared To DBZ?

Post by PFM18 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:13 pm

supersaiyanZero wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:54 am
PFM18 wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:52 pm
He's identical. Absolutely nothing about him is different from the original manga. Goku has always been a complete idiot, and he has always loved to fight even if this love risks the well being of other people. Those traits are clearly represented in Super, and has not veered much if any away from the conventional image of the character.

How are you able to say this with a straight face? I'm honestly asking. Goku was an embarrassment in Super, but he's just following the trend where the writers took the loudest traits of each character and magnified them to the point of a caricature.
Why wouldn't I be able to say this with a straight face? Goku is the same fun-loving moron that he is passionate about fighting and getting stronger. There's absolutely nothing different about him whatsoever. At most, he is different in the sense of being less serious throughout the series but that is simply a reflection of Super being less serious in general. Christ, the 3rd arc is literally just a giant fight over food in the universe. Once, the situation calls for it, he has the same serious demeanor. I think that his comment in 130 encapsulated his character perfectly: "I'm not a hero of justice or anything, but those that try to hurt my friends, I'll never forgive." Which is true; he never goes out of his way to go and be a hero and save people for the sake of it, that is his son's thing. He is one that keeps his friends close to his vest and is infuriated at the thought of anybody hurting them, and as he has said many times in the face of enemies who have killed or hurt his friends; "I'll never forgive you." Of course, he almost always does forgive them anyway, and that is the nature of the character. He is angry in the moment but he has a big heart and is willing to forgive. (See: Piccolo, Tenshinhan, 17,18,Freeza,Vegeta)

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Re: DBS Goku: Dumber, Smarter Or The Same Compared To DBZ?

Post by Tai Lung » Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:22 pm

DHM211 wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:26 am
Nokra wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:02 pm
Goku honestly feels the same as he was from DBZ. Although he is probably even smarter when it comes to fighting than he was in DBZ. And at least he doesn't constantly make really dumb decisions like letting enemies who killed his friends/family live or giving senzu beans to enemies who are threats to the entire world just so they can have a "fair fight". What do you all think?
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and then let the frieza use 100% power ...

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Re: DBS Goku: Dumber, Smarter Or The Same Compared To DBZ?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:57 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:32 am
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:16 am
nickzambuto wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:01 am

I might actually say that is part of Goku's character arc. He takes the gods less seriously now in light of the overwhelming power he has achieved.
Doesn't make sense though. He was strong as hell in Z though, yet it's not like was touching and harassing Shin and Old Kai when he met them. He was a much more serious individual.
The first thing Goku does when he sees Elder Kaioshin is blast him in the face to test how strong he is.
There's a difference between poking at someone for a small moment, and consistely harassing an innocent for a long time. Goku with Zamasu is like a bully at school who never leaves the weaker kid alone. But instead of being blunt, Goku is passive-aggressive and sticks to Zamasu like glue, never leaving him alone, and never listening to what he has to say. When Gowasu is talking to Beerus and Whis, Goku is seen on the background molesting a visibly-irritated Zamasu who was pleading him for the tenth time to leave him alone. That behaviour is unacceptable and foul.
I look down on existence from a much higher perspective than you do. I witness this world, this universe and the truth of all things. That yields deeper understanding. Wisdom. The realization that all mortals should be destroyed. The one and only mistake among all divine creations. That is what mortals are. And this mistake is egregious. To shape existence into the beautiful utopia it was always meant to be, the mistake must be corrected. I will purge all mortals from existence in place of the gods WHO REFUSE TO ADMIT FAILURE!!

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Re: DBS Goku: Dumber, Smarter Or The Same Compared To DBZ?

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:59 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:57 pm
Lord Beerus wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:32 am
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:16 am


Doesn't make sense though. He was strong as hell in Z though, yet it's not like was touching and harassing Shin and Old Kai when he met them. He was a much more serious individual.
The first thing Goku does when he sees Elder Kaioshin is blast him in the face to test how strong he is.
There's a difference between poking at someone for a small moment, and consistely harassing an innocent for a long time. Goku with Zamasu is like a bully at school who never leaves the weaker kid alone. But instead of being blunt, Goku is passive-aggressive and sticks to Zamasu like glue, never leaving him alone, and never listening to what he has to say. When Gowasu is talking to Beerus and Whis, Goku is seen on the background molesting a visibly-irritated Zamasu who was pleading him for the tenth time to leave him alone. That behaviour is unacceptable and foul.
:?

Okay... um... let's try and reel it in a little, okay?

Goku is interested in fighting people and challenging himself. That's his core characteristic, and ultimately what motivates a good chunk decisions in the original series. Many of which are plot changing. Was Goku a bit more forward with how he wanted to challenge Zamasu to a sparring match? Yes, perhaps. But that's as far as it goes. There's no deeper meaning to it. Goku isn't being passive aggressive (how you came to that conclusion is beyond me), or being like a bully. I certainly do believe that Goku in the episode where he sparred with Zamasu (Episode 53?) was written poorly and suffered from the worst case of character exaggeration in that episode more than any other in the anime.

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Re: DBS Goku: Dumber, Smarter Or The Same Compared To DBZ?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:13 pm

Was Goku a bit more forward with how he wanted to challenge Zamasu to a sparring match?
A bit? What an understatement. He was harassing Zamasu, it's pretty obvious that Zamasu didn't want anything to do with him and yet he would keep annoying him like an insistent child. An adult would have realized that such behaviour is wrong and would have respected a choice of their SUPERIOR. Because Zamasu was a God, and thus he was Goku's superior and worthy of respect. At least karma bit him when Zamasu stole his body and killed him.

You're too lenient with Goku. Stupidity shouldn't be excused just because "he likes fighting". If he were an actual adult, he would realize that his love for fighting isn't everything, and that he shouldn't try to force it onto others.
I look down on existence from a much higher perspective than you do. I witness this world, this universe and the truth of all things. That yields deeper understanding. Wisdom. The realization that all mortals should be destroyed. The one and only mistake among all divine creations. That is what mortals are. And this mistake is egregious. To shape existence into the beautiful utopia it was always meant to be, the mistake must be corrected. I will purge all mortals from existence in place of the gods WHO REFUSE TO ADMIT FAILURE!!

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Re: DBS Goku: Dumber, Smarter Or The Same Compared To DBZ?

Post by Lionel » Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:12 pm

Maybe it's the more saturated art-style and contingency-available conditions of the narrative at this point, but I've seen a change in Goku as well. While he's never been one to sombrely dwell on the negative or overthink things, he still tended to take a situation seriously if need be -- even actions such as giving Cell a Sensu could be looked upon through the lenses of him having the utmost confidence in his son to overwhelm this creature once he's pushed over the edge. Confidence or arrogance like that is still disconcertedly volatile, but it's not like he wasn't taking the situation seriously. We even catch a rare glimpse of Goku being held accountable for his presumptiveness by having Piccolo call him out and make him come to the realisation that Gohan doesn't share his unquenchable thirst for battle like he does.

Personally, I prefer the Piccolo Daimou to Freeza arc Goku best. There was still naivete and competitiveness but it often didn't dictate his actions and he even accepted help on more than one occasion. As of lately, we've only seen that in moments like the Future Trunks arc and battle with Jiren.

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Re: DBS Goku: Dumber, Smarter Or The Same Compared To DBZ?

Post by Tai Lung » Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:18 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:57 pm
Lord Beerus wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:32 am
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:16 am


Doesn't make sense though. He was strong as hell in Z though, yet it's not like was touching and harassing Shin and Old Kai when he met them. He was a much more serious individual.
The first thing Goku does when he sees Elder Kaioshin is blast him in the face to test how strong he is.
There's a difference between poking at someone for a small moment, and consistely harassing an innocent for a long time. Goku with Zamasu is like a bully at school who never leaves the weaker kid alone. But instead of being blunt, Goku is passive-aggressive and sticks to Zamasu like glue, never leaving him alone, and never listening to what he has to say. When Gowasu is talking to Beerus and Whis, Goku is seen on the background molesting a visibly-irritated Zamasu who was pleading him for the tenth time to leave him alone. That behaviour is unacceptable and foul.
ehh part of the insistence of goku in wanting to fight with zamau was because he wanted to know if the ki of zamasu was the same as the one of goku black which only could comrprobarlo fighting with him as he had fought with black before ... it was not just a whim

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Re: DBS Goku: Dumber, Smarter Or The Same Compared To DBZ?

Post by superfan2024 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:25 pm

Goku's actions changes every episode in Super because of the differing writers.

I personally best think its best to evaluate Goku in BoG, RoF, and Broly if you want to compare him to Z, because Toriyama wrote majority of the screenplay for most of these three movies and obviously wrote Z (chapters 195-519 of the Dragon Ball manga).

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Re: DBS Goku: Dumber, Smarter Or The Same Compared To DBZ?

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:54 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:13 pm
Was Goku a bit more forward with how he wanted to challenge Zamasu to a sparring match?
A bit? What an understatement. He was harassing Zamasu, it's pretty obvious that Zamasu didn't want anything to do with him and yet he would keep annoying him like an insistent child. An adult would have realized that such behaviour is wrong and would have respected a choice of their SUPERIOR. Because Zamasu was a God, and thus he was Goku's superior and worthy of respect. At least karma bit him when Zamasu stole his body and killed him.

You're too lenient with Goku. Stupidity shouldn't be excused just because "he likes fighting". If he were an actual adult, he would realize that his love for fighting isn't everything, and that he shouldn't try to force it onto others.
I think you're taking this scenario far more seriously than it needs to be. Goku wanted to fight someone out of curiosity. That is traits that lead to some questionable character moments for Goku, but it is a trait nonetheless that is integral to Goku's charactersion and incredibly important to how the plot of Dragon Ball is shaped.

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Re: DBS Goku: Dumber, Smarter Or The Same Compared To DBZ?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:02 am

The scenario is meant to be taken seriously, since it shows that Goku's childish and careless nature can have mastodontic consequences for him and for the entire multiverse, since it was one of the catalysts that caused Zamasu to turn rogue by proving that mortals are dangerous and violent. Bulma literally confronts Goku about that later on: "So this is your fault for picking another fight??".

I don't remember Z Goku dooming the entire multiverse because of his desire to fight. That was something that Vegeta did with Perfect Cell.
I look down on existence from a much higher perspective than you do. I witness this world, this universe and the truth of all things. That yields deeper understanding. Wisdom. The realization that all mortals should be destroyed. The one and only mistake among all divine creations. That is what mortals are. And this mistake is egregious. To shape existence into the beautiful utopia it was always meant to be, the mistake must be corrected. I will purge all mortals from existence in place of the gods WHO REFUSE TO ADMIT FAILURE!!

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Re: DBS Goku: Dumber, Smarter Or The Same Compared To DBZ?

Post by desu » Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:27 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:02 am
The scenario is meant to be taken seriously, since it shows that Goku's childish and careless nature can have mastodontic consequences for him and for the entire multiverse, since it was one of the catalysts that caused Zamasu to turn rogue by proving that mortals are dangerous and violent. Bulma literally confronts Goku about that later on: "So this is your fault for picking another fight??".

I don't remember Z Goku dooming the entire multiverse because of his desire to fight. That was something that Vegeta did with Perfect Cell.
Well Goku has always been pretty selfish and a rebel. He does what he wants a lot of times and can get away with it, ie: Forgiving Frieza twice (when he said he was tired of fighting someone whose energy was dropping and after getting cut in half), giving a senzu to Cell and deciding to not get into the time chamber even though Gohan and him could have improved even more, not asking Shenron for Gero's localization because he thought he wouldn't be fair, letting Goten and Trunks fight Buu, not doing the fusion technique against kid buu and breaking the pothalas, etc... and all of these put the universe in danger (especially with Buu).

In Super it's just normal that he doesn't respect Kaioshins anymore, since he is way stronger than them, and after all he stopped respecting King Kai in Z aswell as early as the Frieza Saga when he decided to fight Frieza despite King Kai told him not to and in the Cell Saga and Buu saga he also doesn't have too much respect for him neither. Goku even didn't obey Beerus' orders about visiting Zeno even though he was a lot stronger than him, but disobeying and being selfish is something Goku has done since the Saiyan arc (and earlier too), and that's a trait he has that sets the ball rolling for some situations (whole Androids arc).

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Re: DBS Goku: Dumber, Smarter Or The Same Compared To DBZ?

Post by Lukmendes » Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:10 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:32 am
The first thing Goku does when he sees Elder Kaioshin is blast him in the face to test how strong he is.
To be fair, Old Kaioshin was also boasting about how great his powers were, and Goku just did a ki blast to test it out (Which, funnily enough, Chi Chi did something similar when meeting Roshi :lol: ), so Goku only did it because of the boasting, not in spite of it, and he never even thought of asking to fight him too, so he was slightly better at respecting gods, even if not much lol.

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