Zeno ranked as strong enough to defeat Thanos

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Re: Zeno ranked as strong enough to defeat Thanos

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Fri May 17, 2019 1:44 pm

Nokra wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:44 am
Zeno could just erase thanos or any marvel character if they came to the dragonball universe. Hes the strongest and can't be defeated after all so he one shots every trash marvel character.
Well maybe if you restrict it to the characters who are limited to a single universe or timeline, or don't have any kind of immunity to existence erasure, or anything like that.

But what could Zeno hope to do against someone like Oblivion, for example, who is the literal embodiment of nothingness and nonexistence? The Ultimate Nullifier, which is a weapon that does basically the same thing that Zeno does, actually feeds his power, as everything erased by it serves to make him stronger. You can't erase nothingness itself.
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Re: Zeno ranked as strong enough to defeat Thanos

Post by Nokra » Fri May 17, 2019 1:47 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 1:44 pm
Nokra wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:44 am
Zeno could just erase thanos or any marvel character if they came to the dragonball universe. Hes the strongest and can't be defeated after all so he one shots every trash marvel character.
Well maybe if you restrict it to the characters who are limited to a single universe or timeline, or don't have any kind of immunity to existence erasure, or anything like that.

But what could Zeno hope to do against someone like Oblivion, for example, who is the literal embodiment of nothingness and nonexistence? The Ultimate Nullifier, which is a weapon that does basically the same thing that Zeno does, actually feeds his power, as everything erased by it serves to make him stronger. You can't erase nothingness itself.
None of what you said makes sense but wouldn't matter anyway because in the dragonball universe they would be powerless against zeno.

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Re: Zeno ranked as strong enough to defeat Thanos

Post by Grimlock » Fri May 17, 2019 2:01 pm

Though he isn't a Japanese character, I want to add Ben Tennyson as Alien X in this list of people that can defeat Thanos (and Zeno).

As someone who has finally watched the series recently, it is actually true that that boy can defeat these characters (and many more).

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Re: Zeno ranked as strong enough to defeat Thanos

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Fri May 17, 2019 2:07 pm

Nokra wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 1:47 pm
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 1:44 pm
Nokra wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:44 am
Zeno could just erase thanos or any marvel character if they came to the dragonball universe. Hes the strongest and can't be defeated after all so he one shots every trash marvel character.
Well maybe if you restrict it to the characters who are limited to a single universe or timeline, or don't have any kind of immunity to existence erasure, or anything like that.

But what could Zeno hope to do against someone like Oblivion, for example, who is the literal embodiment of nothingness and nonexistence? The Ultimate Nullifier, which is a weapon that does basically the same thing that Zeno does, actually feeds his power, as everything erased by it serves to make him stronger. You can't erase nothingness itself.
None of what you said makes sense but wouldn't matter anyway because in the dragonball universe they would be powerless against zeno.
Do you really think Zeno could defeat any character in all of fiction? Because there are many, many characters who are far more powerful than him. Oblivion is just one of them.

But as for Thanos, Zeno could beat all of the movie versions, as well as the base comic version and possibly the Cosmic Cube version as well. But he wouldn't defeat the comic IG or HOTU version.
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Re: Zeno ranked as strong enough to defeat Thanos

Post by Thani » Fri May 17, 2019 2:26 pm

As far as I know, the extent of Zen'Oh powers seems to extend to all universes on the DB Multiverse all at once. In that regard, I'm appalled that a device that almost all versions of Galactus has access to can measure up to it (although the core principles are the same). The same goes for the IG, I always understood it as having power over only it's native universe since, y'know, they are usually powerless outside of it - and even broke when attempting to stop a convergence of two universes. These feats seems too massive for concepts that don't require such power to work well.

That said, the Heart of the Universe I agree wholeheartedly. Any character in possession of it can pretty much bitchslap the Living Tribunal, who is basically the greatest agent of God, I mean, Jack Kirby, in the Marvel multiverse.

But I'm aware of the recent retcon, although I lack the knowledge of the details. All I recall is that Eternity became a whole deal more important.

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Re: Zeno ranked as strong enough to defeat Thanos

Post by Grimlock » Fri May 17, 2019 2:40 pm

The only retcon I'm aware of when it comes to Eternity (Megaverse) is how it is portrayed. There was a Marvel/DC crossover, and both Marvel and DC were represented by the Brothers. Now, Eternity fulfills that role. If there's anything else other than that, I don't know what retcon you are talking about.

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Re: Zeno ranked as strong enough to defeat Thanos

Post by Thani » Fri May 17, 2019 2:44 pm

I recall a thing with an "original" Eternity that spawned the Celestial and then got fractured into the Multiverse, with many smaller Eternities. It was pretty recent too. Maybe it's the same thing you're saying.

I also never gave much credit to that crossover, since it ended with both verses fusing and all.

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Re: Zeno ranked as strong enough to defeat Thanos

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Fri May 17, 2019 2:49 pm

Well it is nice that Eternity is getting more respect as in the past he has lost to people like Dormammu, and other weaker beings.
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Re: Zeno ranked as strong enough to defeat Thanos

Post by Grimlock » Fri May 17, 2019 2:53 pm

Thani wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 2:44 pm
I recall a thing with an "original" Eternity that spawned the Celestial and then got fractured into the Multiverse, with many smaller Eternities. It was pretty recent too. Maybe it's the same thing you're saying.

I also never gave much credit to that crossover, since it ended with both verses fusing and all.
You're referring to the First Firmament, the first Universe/cosmos and the one who created Celestials and Aspirants. He was shattered, and its pieces become another being, Eternity. But not the embodiment of the Universe, it was an Eternity that is embodiment of the Megaverse. It's inside this "new" Eternity where you'll find countless Eternities (embodiments of the Universes).

We are talking about the same story, so how's that a retcon? We didn't know about the existence of these larger beings, but in a certain way, the concept already existed through the Brothers like I mentioned. In this sense, it's clearly a retcon since they fulfill the same role, and it seems like the crossover is to be ignored.

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Re: Zeno ranked as strong enough to defeat Thanos

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Fri May 17, 2019 3:05 pm

This is getting really off topic, though.
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Re: Zeno ranked as strong enough to defeat Thanos

Post by Thani » Fri May 17, 2019 3:25 pm

Hahaha that is true. But to be fair, Dormammu used to be a MASSIVE deal, power wise. Even his MCU self can consume whole universes, for example.

Also yeah Grim, that was it. I called it that way mostly because it changed perspective a lot for the lore up until now.

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Re: Zeno ranked as strong enough to defeat Thanos

Post by Nokra » Fri May 17, 2019 5:36 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 2:07 pm
Nokra wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 1:47 pm
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 1:44 pm


Well maybe if you restrict it to the characters who are limited to a single universe or timeline, or don't have any kind of immunity to existence erasure, or anything like that.

But what could Zeno hope to do against someone like Oblivion, for example, who is the literal embodiment of nothingness and nonexistence? The Ultimate Nullifier, which is a weapon that does basically the same thing that Zeno does, actually feeds his power, as everything erased by it serves to make him stronger. You can't erase nothingness itself.
None of what you said makes sense but wouldn't matter anyway because in the dragonball universe they would be powerless against zeno.
Do you really think Zeno could defeat any character in all of fiction? Because there are many, many characters who are far more powerful than him. Oblivion is just one of them.

But as for Thanos, Zeno could beat all of the movie versions, as well as the base comic version and possibly the Cosmic Cube version as well. But he wouldn't defeat the comic IG or HOTU version.
Zeno can't be defeated no matter what and can erase anything regardless of scale or complexity according to what whis said so yes. Going by the narrative Zeno is meant to be an all powerful unstoppable god meaning he would creampie, bitchslap and one shot every other character that dare step into his universe.

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Re: Zeno ranked as strong enough to defeat Thanos

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Fri May 17, 2019 6:25 pm

Nokra wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 5:36 pm
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 2:07 pm
Nokra wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 1:47 pm


None of what you said makes sense but wouldn't matter anyway because in the dragonball universe they would be powerless against zeno.
Do you really think Zeno could defeat any character in all of fiction? Because there are many, many characters who are far more powerful than him. Oblivion is just one of them.

But as for Thanos, Zeno could beat all of the movie versions, as well as the base comic version and possibly the Cosmic Cube version as well. But he wouldn't defeat the comic IG or HOTU version.
Zeno can't be defeated no matter what and can erase anything regardless of scale or complexity according to what whis said so yes. Going by the narrative Zeno is meant to be an all powerful unstoppable god meaning he would creampie, bitchslap and one shot every other character that dare step into his universe.
I don't think you understand the scale and capabilities of many other fictional realities here. We already know that he's limited to a single timeline so that is a weakness in and of itself. He's also not omniscient, and is never indicated to have created anything - he can only destroy. In addition, the most he's shown is the ability to wipe out 12 universes at once, whereas there are characters in other series that can do the same to billions of universes, or even infinite universes. When Shin said that no one could defeat him, he was obviously only talking about beings that he was familiar with. There are many characters in fiction that are more than capable of defeating him.

For example, there's a character in the Doctor Who Expanded Universe whose power is based on the definitions of words, so if you insist that 'No one can defeat Zeno', then this guy has already defeated him, by definition, as he is literally 'no one'.
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Re: Zeno ranked as strong enough to defeat Thanos

Post by Nokra » Fri May 17, 2019 8:50 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 6:25 pm
Nokra wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 5:36 pm
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 2:07 pm


Do you really think Zeno could defeat any character in all of fiction? Because there are many, many characters who are far more powerful than him. Oblivion is just one of them.

But as for Thanos, Zeno could beat all of the movie versions, as well as the base comic version and possibly the Cosmic Cube version as well. But he wouldn't defeat the comic IG or HOTU version.
Zeno can't be defeated no matter what and can erase anything regardless of scale or complexity according to what whis said so yes. Going by the narrative Zeno is meant to be an all powerful unstoppable god meaning he would creampie, bitchslap and one shot every other character that dare step into his universe.
I don't think you understand the scale and capabilities of many other fictional realities here. We already know that he's limited to a single timeline so that is a weakness in and of itself. He's also not omniscient, and is never indicated to have created anything - he can only destroy. In addition, the most he's shown is the ability to wipe out 12 universes at once, whereas there are characters in other series that can do the same to billions of universes, or even infinite universes. When Shin said that no one could defeat him, he was obviously only talking about beings that he was familiar with. There are many characters in fiction that are more than capable of defeating him.

For example, there's a character in the Doctor Who Expanded Universe whose power is based on the definitions of words, so if you insist that 'No one can defeat Zeno', then this guy has already defeated him, by definition, as he is literally 'no one'.
I'm just going by the narrative so...

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Re: Zeno ranked as strong enough to defeat Thanos

Post by Thani » Fri May 17, 2019 9:09 pm

That narrative matters only for the DB Verse. We know for a fact that ToriBot is greater than Zen'Oh as well. The little guy is extremely powerful, on par with high tier cosmic beings from other settings, but so far even he has limits (like being subjected to time, with múltiple copies of him across the timelines).

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