Why is it Kefla and not Kafla

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Melee_Sovereign
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Re: Why is it Kefla and not Kafla

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Sun May 05, 2019 10:54 pm

Rakurai wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 5:14 pm

There is no respect or authenticity in attempting to retain the way a name is said as close as possible by butchering it. It is more appropriate to pay homage to the naming conventions from which they are derived from. Cunber is asinine and stupid, and Kefla is just plain wrong. Both Crunchyroll and Funimation are horribly inconsistent about naming conventions in general.
I strongly disagree. I think it's more respectful to just treat the name as its own entity, and not over-complicate something that doesn't need to be complicated.. The way the name is derived is good to acknowledge, but I don't see any need to get actively involved in what these names derive from.

And I don't see why Crunchyroll and Funimation even need to be "consistent". Why does there need to be all these rules and standards to uphold? Why can't we just let some things happen naturally?

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Re: Why is it Kefla and not Kafla

Post by Daisetsu » Mon May 06, 2019 12:39 am

Rakurai wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 1:46 am
Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 8:52 pm

But by that same token, Vegito is also wrong in English. But no one bats an eye.
I've called this out before too. Vegito (I prefer 'Vegetto' myself which is closer to the original romanization) is also just plain wrong. Given the English translation of 'Kakarotto' to 'Kakarot,' it should be 'Vegerot.' And it is like that in VIZ with the manga, but not with the anime. It's about consistency in the translation and name puns. From what I've seen, the Crunchyroll dub in general has been bad about this.
If it means anything, Funimation went with Vegetto in Kai, so that just makes Vegito even more wrong.

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Re: Why is it Kefla and not Kafla

Post by Rakurai » Mon May 06, 2019 4:35 am

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 10:54 pm
Rakurai wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 5:14 pm

There is no respect or authenticity in attempting to retain the way a name is said as close as possible by butchering it. It is more appropriate to pay homage to the naming conventions from which they are derived from. Cunber is asinine and stupid, and Kefla is just plain wrong. Both Crunchyroll and Funimation are horribly inconsistent about naming conventions in general.
I strongly disagree. I think it's more respectful to just treat the name as its own entity, and not over-complicate something that doesn't need to be complicated.. The way the name is derived is good to acknowledge, but I don't see any need to get actively involved in what these names derive from.

And I don't see why Crunchyroll and Funimation even need to be "consistent". Why does there need to be all these rules and standards to uphold? Why can't we just let some things happen naturally?
The names are literally derived from English-based terminology of vegetables, so it only makes sense that the puns are properly conveyed in English for full effect and appreciation. In no English translation or romanization are Cunber or Kefla correct.

Let me give other examples in different languages. The name “Son Goku“ comes from the Chinese story Journey to the West, the main character. In Chinese Mandarin, his name is pronounced “Son Wukong.” In Chinese Mandarin translations of DB, Goku’s name is pronounced Son Wukong, not Son Goku. But by your logic, Son Goku should be used even though the name is taken directly from a classic Chinese novel.

Chaotzu is derived after the term for dumplings in Chinese Mandarin, jiaozi. In Chinese Mandarin, his name is Jiaozi, not Chaotzu. This is one out of countless examples in which DB has taken inspiration from multiple languages for names.

When there’s inspiration drawn from a certain language, it makes the most sense to convey that name into said language. Trying to butcher the romanization is simply like trying to take Japanese inspired terms like tsunami (pronounced ’sunami’ in English) and pronouncing them like the English do when using them in Japanese dialogue (which is more like ‘tzunami’).

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Re: Why is it Kefla and not Kafla

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Mon May 06, 2019 12:52 pm

Rakurai wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 4:35 am

The names are literally derived from English-based terminology of vegetables, so it only makes sense that the puns are properly conveyed in English for full effect and appreciation. In no English translation or romanization are Cunber or Kefla correct.
I, again, don't like this, because I think it undermines the fact that these are still character names in their own right. I'm all for acknowledging what the names derive from. But I rather put more importance on recognizing that they are still names on their own, than putting importance on what they derive from.
But by your logic, Son Goku should be used even though the name is taken directly from a classic Chinese novel.
Yes, that is my logic. If the Chinese version calls him Sun Wukong, then I disagree with that. The Chinese dub should call him Son Goku, or just Goku, because that is the character's name! It hardly matters that Goku is based on the character from Journey to the West. Being based on a character doesn't make you that character. Goku is his own character with his own name. He's called Goku in basically every other version of Dragon Ball. He should be called Goku in the Chinese version.

We don't call Goku "The Monkey King" or "Monkey Awekened from Emptiness (literal translation)" or "Empty Monkey" so why the hell should the Chinese call him Sun Wukong?

Trying to butcher the romanization is simply like trying to take Japanese inspired terms like tsunami (pronounced ’sunami’ in English) and pronouncing them like the English do when using them in Japanese dialogue (which is more like ‘tzunami’).
Tsunami isn't a name. It's a word. I'm talking strictly names here.

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Re: Why is it Kefla and not Kafla

Post by Rakurai » Mon May 06, 2019 2:35 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 12:52 pm
Rakurai wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 4:35 am

The names are literally derived from English-based terminology of vegetables, so it only makes sense that the puns are properly conveyed in English for full effect and appreciation. In no English translation or romanization are Cunber or Kefla correct.
I, again, don't like this, because I think it undermines the fact that these are still character names in their own right. I'm all for acknowledging what the names derive from. But I rather put more importance on recognizing that they are still names on their own, than putting importance on what they derive from.
But by your logic, Son Goku should be used even though the name is taken directly from a classic Chinese novel.
Yes, that is my logic. If the Chinese version calls him Sun Wukong, then I disagree with that. The Chinese dub should call him Son Goku, or just Goku, because that is the character's name! It hardly matters that Goku is based on the character from Journey to the West. Being based on a character doesn't make you that character. Goku is his own character with his own name. He's called Goku in basically every other version of Dragon Ball. He should be called Goku in the Chinese version.

We don't call Goku "The Monkey King" or "Monkey Awekened from Emptiness (literal translation)" or "Empty Monkey" so why the hell should the Chinese call him Sun Wukong?

Trying to butcher the romanization is simply like trying to take Japanese inspired terms like tsunami (pronounced ’sunami’ in English) and pronouncing them like the English do when using them in Japanese dialogue (which is more like ‘tzunami’).
Tsunami isn't a name. It's a word. I'm talking strictly names here.
Okay, fine. Take the DC character Tsunami. Same concept applies, it makes no sense for Japanese to pronounce her name 'Sunami' which is the English-way of saying a Japanese-inspired word instead of using the proper Japanese pronounciation.

Funnily enough, it seems like you are the one who's more proper and purist about this than I am. And if that is your view on how names should be localized, then I have nothing more to say. I have made my point.

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Re: Why is it Kefla and not Kafla

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Mon May 06, 2019 5:06 pm

Rakurai wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 2:35 pm

Okay, fine. Take the DC character Tsunami. Same concept applies, it makes no sense for Japanese to pronounce her name 'Sunami' which is the English-way of saying a Japanese-inspired word instead of using the proper Japanese pronounciation.
Ugh... "Sunami" is not a "Japanese-inspired word". It's literally the same exact word, but just pronounced differently because of our English-speaking accent. We even still spell it with the T despite saying it slightly different.

Like I've been talking about before, that is a matter of pronounciation, not translation. Saying "sunami" instead of "tsunami" is just a difference in pronunciation. But saying Sun Wukong instead of Son Goku is NOT a different pronounciation, but rather using a different version of the name, which I do not agree with doing for established characters.

Kanba to Cunber is a difference in pronounciation, which is equivalent to your Tsunami example. Kanba to Cumber, however, is creating a different version of the name, which is more equivalent to your Sun Wukong example. Another example is something like Miguel, Mikhail, and Michael. They're all different version of a name, rather than a simple difference in pronounciation. In a practical sense, they are all functionally different names. If you were given the name Michael by your parents, then that is your name. It's the name on your birth certificate, drivers license etc. It is your name regardless of where you are in the world. A Spanish speaker, if they were being respectful of your name, would still call you Michael. Not Miguel. Now, their accent might cause them to say it slightly differently to how you say it, but they're still saying Michael.

Sun Wukong, by that same token, is effectively a different name than Son Goku. Cumber is effectively a different name than Kanba, where as Cunber isn't.

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Re: Why is it Kefla and not Kafla

Post by Quebaz » Tue May 07, 2019 8:50 am

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 5:06 pm

Kanba to Cunber is a difference in pronounciation, which is equivalent to your Tsunami example. Kanba to Cumber, however, is creating a different version of the name, which is more equivalent to your Sun Wukong example.

Cumber is effectively a different name than Kanba, where as Cunber isn't.
Wait how come Kanba is different than Cumber if Kanba is just a shortening of the english source word for his name? They're just saying kyukanba without the kyu, which is the same thing as us saying cucumber without the first cu.
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Re: Why is it Kefla and not Kafla

Post by Rakurai » Tue May 07, 2019 9:02 am

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 5:06 pm
Kanba to Cumber, however, is creating a different version of the name, which is more equivalent to your Sun Wukong example.
No it's not. Kanba the romanization of the English word 'cucumber' to キュカンバ (kyukanba) without the キュ (kyu). Which is equivalently Cucumber without Cu, hence Cumber.

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Re: Why is it Kefla and not Kafla

Post by Melkaniator » Tue May 07, 2019 11:16 am

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 8:52 pm

But by that same token, Vegito is also wrong in English. But no one bats an eye.
Actually, many still do to this day, you must've missed many forums about that one.
DBS anime is a fan service series that delivers irrelevant dialogue, inconsistent writing, and lazy designs.

The DB manga never had so many mistakes, nor those were this constant.

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Re: Why is it Kefla and not Kafla

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Tue May 07, 2019 12:55 pm

Quebaz wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 8:50 am

Wait how come Kanba is different than Cumber if Kanba is just a shortening of the english source word for his name? They're just saying kyukanba without the kyu, which is the same thing as us saying cucumber without the first cu.
Because his name is still effectively of Japanese origin (that's based off an English word). It's why we say Bardock instead of "burdock" (the actual vegetable name).

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Re: Why is it Kefla and not Kafla

Post by VegettoEX » Tue May 07, 2019 2:23 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 12:55 pm
It's why we say Bardock instead of "burdock" (the actual vegetable name).
"Burdock" is used both in Viz's English translation of the manga and Steve Simmons' subtitle track on FUNimation's home video release.

It's a valid and accurate choice, and not quite comparable to "Kefla".
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Re: Why is it Kefla and not Kafla

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Tue May 07, 2019 2:47 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 2:23 pm

"Burdock" is used both in Viz's English translation of the manga and Steve Simmons' subtitle track on FUNimation's home video release.

It's a valid and accurate choice, and not quite comparable to "Kefla".
That's true, good point. But least you recognize that it's a "choice" and not an obligation. We can choose to pay more consideration to the puns these names derive from when coming up with English dub versions. We aren't necessarily obligated to, though.

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Re: Why is it Kefla and not Kafla

Post by VegettoEX » Tue May 07, 2019 3:26 pm

Right.

Which is why "Kafla" is the better choice that we should observe and use!
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Re: Why is it Kefla and not Kafla

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Tue May 07, 2019 7:46 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 3:26 pm
Right.

Which is why "Kafla" is the better choice that we should observe and use!
Why is that? I don't see anything we stated that indicates that it's the "better" choice. Only that it's a choice. Also, you run into the problem that "Kafla" reads as "Kah-flah" instead of "Kay-flah".

"Kéfla" might be better if you want to preserve your desired phonetic sound and are willing to look passed that you lose the 'a' in "Kale".

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Re: Why is it Kefla and not Kafla

Post by UltraPrimus22 » Tue May 07, 2019 8:19 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 7:46 pm
VegettoEX wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 3:26 pm
Right.

Which is why "Kafla" is the better choice that we should observe and use!
Why is that? I don't see anything we stated that indicates that it's the "better" choice. Only that it's a choice. Also, you run into the problem that "Kafla" reads as "Kah-flah" instead of "Kay-flah".

"Kéfla" might be better if you want to preserve the your desired phonetic sound and are willing to look passed that you lose the 'a' in "Kale".
You don't lose the "kay" pronunciation when you spell it as "Kafla". That's a major misconception that's more a fault of a person misinterpreting how to approach the pronunciation than the spelling itself.

For reference:
Kale = keɪl
Cauliflower= kɑl·ɪˌflɑʊ·ər

In an ironic case, anyone unfamiliar with Dragon Ball can pronounce "Saiyan" as "sigh-(y)an" correctly just from reading it. However, the grandfathered English pronunciation of the word is "say-an" due to English dubs of old's mispronunciation, along with widespread cultural assimilation. Al Rocker proved that point when he said the former pronunciation for the Macy's Thanksgiving Parade, only for social media to "correct" him on the localized pronunciation.

People will make mistakes mispronouncing words in any case, so having the correct pronunciation associated with the correct spelling will only reinforce a similar effect to my previous example.

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Re: Why is it Kefla and not Kafla

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Wed May 08, 2019 12:21 am

UltraPrimus22 wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 8:19 pm

For reference:
Kale = keɪl
Cauliflower= kɑl·ɪˌflɑʊ·ər
Yeah, I know what Kafla derives from. You don't really need to point out the obvious. I'm not sure how this means "Kafla" reads with a long 'a' in its own right.

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Re: Why is it Kefla and not Kafla

Post by Quebaz » Wed May 08, 2019 9:48 am

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 12:21 am

Yeah, I know what Kafla derives from. You don't really need to point out the obvious. I'm not sure how this means "Kafla" reads with a long 'a' in its own right.
I mean it's said by the character herself. She right out points out that Kale + Caulifla = Kafla, there's no way you should pronounce it any other way.
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Re: Why is it Kefla and not Kafla

Post by Rakurai » Wed May 08, 2019 11:02 am

VegettoEX wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 3:26 pm
Right.

Which is why "Kafla" is the better choice that we should observe and use!
I still stand by the notion that Kefla is just straight-up wrong. As much as Vegito as a dub name is also straight-up wrong. These are the names of fusion characters, they make the least sense when combining their names.

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Re: Why is it Kefla and not Kafla

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Wed May 08, 2019 6:47 pm

Quebaz wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 9:48 am

I mean it's said by the character herself.
That has nothing to do with the spelling.

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