To me, Ultra Instinct feels like it came out of nowhere

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To me, Ultra Instinct feels like it came out of nowhere

Post by superfan2024 » Mon May 13, 2019 10:02 am

I get it, Whis referenced it in RoF, but yeah.... that was it. It was about thinking without moving, but Whis just said it, and we then got it a few arcs later. In the manga's ToP Arc, it was like Goku was initially hinting that he had something coming, and then after Jiren beats him up and Roshi gives him a pep talk, he just.. gets it.

In the anime, Goku broke through his limits by the Spirit Bomb, and then can just starts moving without thinking just because he broke his limits. With the anime and manga, what about Vegeta? Vegeta and Goku are roughly the same strength in the anime and manga yet Vegeta doesn't get the form? Of course I prefer the anime's take more, but maybe if we saw more of Whis actually training Goku and Whis to get Ultra Instinct throughout the RoF, U6, and FT arcs, then it might've been more convincing.

I also don't know where Toriyama and the writers are gonna go after Ultra Instinct, which is why that I like that Goku isn't spamming it (didn't even use it in Broly which is good).

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Re: To me, Ultra Instinct feels like it came out of nowhere

Post by Nokra » Mon May 13, 2019 10:44 am

Pretty sure it was hinted at after rof like in episode 71/72 before the ToP started.

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Re: To me, Ultra Instinct feels like it came out of nowhere

Post by VegettoEX » Mon May 13, 2019 10:53 am

This is something I wrote in a previous post as it related to the rollout in the respective manga chapter:

They absolutely have discussed this kind of concept before. They even go out of their way to remind you right there in the chapter itself with just a few of the countless times it's been brought up in the history of the franchise:

Image

All of that stuff references actual conversations from the original series where the same basic principles were being discussed. Ultra Instinct is a wholly consistent concept based on previous material. Sure, it's not by name, but I think part of the point of what they're going for here: all roads seem to lead to this end-point in martial arts.
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Re: To me, Ultra Instinct feels like it came out of nowhere

Post by Galan007 » Mon May 13, 2019 11:35 am

Nokra wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 10:44 am
Pretty sure it was hinted at after rof like in episode 71/72 before the ToP started.
If we're talking strictly DBS, Goku's use of UI was also alluded to way back in the BoG arc(ep.05.)

As SSJ3 Goku is flying in to attack Beerus on King Kai's planet, his body inextricably stopped itself mid-attack, then retreated on its own -- this completely baffled Goku at the time. Beerus then revealed that he was thinking about attacking Goku in that moment, and he would have been killed if he hadn't retreated. Beerus then asked if Goku was some kind of genius fighter, etc.

IOW, Goku subconsciously sensed the impending danger of Beerus' attack, and his body reacted to it 'autonomously'. I believe this was our first real hint of Ultra Instinct in DBS.

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Re: To me, Ultra Instinct feels like it came out of nowhere

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon May 13, 2019 11:44 am

VegettoEX wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 10:53 am
All of that stuff references actual conversations from the original series where the same basic principles were being discussed. Ultra Instinct is a wholly consistent concept based on previous material. Sure, it's not by name, but I think part of the point of what they're going for here: all roads seem to lead to this end-point in martial arts.
This is precisely why I don't want Goku to get anymore transformation after this. Ultra Instinct really feels like the culmination of all of Goku's hard work as a martial artist, and it was more than fitting for the ability/form to appear in the most high stakes battle in all of Dragon Ball (at this point). To introduce another form for Goku that is conveniently above Ultra Instinct in all areas, would really damage any kind themes intertwined with Goku progression as a martial artist Ultra Instinct had going for him.

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Re: To me, Ultra Instinct feels like it came out of nowhere

Post by sintzu » Mon May 13, 2019 12:09 pm

I think introducing UI during the TOP was fine but I would've preferred for the mastered version to be saved for later. Omen was an epic looking form which I believe could've carried that arc so there was no need to have both that and the incomplete form introduced in the same arc.
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Re: To me, Ultra Instinct feels like it came out of nowhere

Post by Thani » Mon May 13, 2019 12:58 pm

What VegettoEX and Galan007 said was perfect. I'd wish they gave even more foreshadowing tho, maybe even a taste of UIO at a key point in an arc, like FT, where he subtly used it for a split second without noticing.

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Re: To me, Ultra Instinct feels like it came out of nowhere

Post by ankokudaishogun » Mon May 13, 2019 9:17 pm

yeah, UI introduction was extremely bad in the anime.
As in, no introduction whatsoever but a couple of sentences over more than 100 episodes
Just not enough to sell it as conquest of Goku and not just an asspull, especially how it made Goku dozen times stronger

The manga managed it much better, also because it was much shorter, and used the Zeno Exhibition to "refresh" the reader's memory.
It also helped in the manga is purely technique with no real power-up, so it's easier to sell it as the apex of Goku's martial training.

(still thinking anime was much cooler, though)

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Re: To me, Ultra Instinct feels like it came out of nowhere

Post by HeroR » Tue May 14, 2019 4:31 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 9:17 pm
yeah, UI introduction was extremely bad in the anime.
As in, no introduction whatsoever but a couple of sentences over more than 100 episodes
Just not enough to sell it as conquest of Goku and not just an asspull, especially how it made Goku dozen times stronger

The manga managed it much better, also because it was much shorter, and used the Zeno Exhibition to "refresh" the reader's memory.
It also helped in the manga is purely technique with no real power-up, so it's easier to sell it as the apex of Goku's martial training.

(still thinking anime was much cooler, though)
Goku clearly got stronger with UI in the manga. He went from no doing anything at all against Jiren to smashing him even when Jiren got serious. That can't happened without Goku closing the power gap between them, otherwise he would be like Roshi where he can dodge, but not do anything.

Also, the manga had to 'refresh' us because it outright skipped Resurrection 'F', which the concept was first introduced.
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Re: To me, Ultra Instinct feels like it came out of nowhere

Post by emperior » Tue May 14, 2019 5:00 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 10:53 am
This is something I wrote in a previous post as it related to the rollout in the respective manga chapter:

They absolutely have discussed this kind of concept before. They even go out of their way to remind you right there in the chapter itself with just a few of the countless times it's been brought up in the history of the franchise:

Image

All of that stuff references actual conversations from the original series where the same basic principles were being discussed. Ultra Instinct is a wholly consistent concept based on previous material. Sure, it's not by name, but I think part of the point of what they're going for here: all roads seem to lead to this end-point in martial arts.
I fail to see how Ultra Instinct connects to those principles, besides being something based more upon technique than pure strength. The principle is still something different which was never touched upon in the series until Resurrection F.
Toyotaro tried to connect it because it was cool, and because he wanted Goku to achieve this ultimate technique thanks to his master’s teachings, even though Roshi was the least suitable person to teach Goku about how power isn’t everything in martial arts, or to remind him of the other teachings Goku received and of which Roshi knew nothing about.

It’s quite obvious how the intention of Toriyama was for Ultra Instinct to appear out of nowhere during the tournament as that’s the only thing its introduction has in common in the anime and manga.
I think it was always supposed to be an “asspull”, something Goku basically got through luck.
Now what’s yet to be seen is how Goku will be able to truly master it. I bet Toriyama wanted to introduce it in the Tournament of Power because he had a whole audience to witness, comment and explain it. I think it worked.
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Re: To me, Ultra Instinct feels like it came out of nowhere

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue May 14, 2019 5:20 pm

I honestly don’t understand how Ultra Instinct happened out of nowhere. Besides what VegettoEX recalled, modern Dragon Ball has been consistently talking about the concept. When Goku is fighting Kafla, Vegeta remembers what Whis tried to teach them. SS3 Goku had a quick response when his senses felt Beerus was about to attack. Goku has been training to become that since the beginning. It was always there waiting to be unleashed. Certainly it got more foreshadowing than SS3 or SSBlue. What is to say about SSGod, which literally demands quantity over quality. Just gather 6 righteous Saiyans and anyone of them can become a god.

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Re: To me, Ultra Instinct feels like it came out of nowhere

Post by Rakurai » Tue May 14, 2019 5:59 pm

Ultra Instinct as a concept and technique was fine.

It's the transformations that literally made no sense.

There was no foreshadowing that your eyes or hair were supposed to change when your body is moving unconsciously.

The way that the anime approached it was very asspull, where Goku suddenly "pushed his limits" in the Spirit bomb. The way that the manga approached was more sensible, but the transformation still made no sense.

I would have rather much preferred it if it was a technique that Goku was trying to master, an imperfect version like the one Beerus used, and similar to UI Goku in the SDBH manga where your heart/mind being disrupted would mean losing focus over your UI-ness.

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Re: To me, Ultra Instinct feels like it came out of nowhere

Post by HeroR » Tue May 14, 2019 6:57 pm

Rakurai wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 5:59 pm
Ultra Instinct as a concept and technique was fine.

It's the transformations that literally made no sense.

There was no foreshadowing that your eyes or hair were supposed to change when your body is moving unconsciously.

The way that the anime approached it was very asspull, where Goku suddenly "pushed his limits" in the Spirit bomb. The way that the manga approached was more sensible, but the transformation still made no sense.

I would have rather much preferred it if it was a technique that Goku was trying to master, an imperfect version like the one Beerus used, and similar to UI Goku in the SDBH manga where your heart/mind being disrupted would mean losing focus over your UI-ness.
That isn't what happened. Goku got UI by breaking into his inner most shell trying not to die. So it was basically trauma mixed with a strong will to live that made him transformed. Which is constant with how Goku get UI two more times during the tournament.

That and Goku got a form that gave him UI, not that the form itself is UI since it drastically increased his strength and speed.
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precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: To me, Ultra Instinct feels like it came out of nowhere

Post by KuririnNoKotoKa » Tue May 14, 2019 10:22 pm

It's no more or less built up than Super Saiyan.

Besides, its appearance relies on it being a borderline fluke that Goku hones during the tournament to fight.

You can't exactly build something like that up through conventional means.

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Re: To me, Ultra Instinct feels like it came out of nowhere

Post by Rakurai » Tue May 14, 2019 10:49 pm

HeroR wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 6:57 pm

That isn't what happened. Goku got UI by breaking into his inner most shell trying not to die. So it was basically trauma mixed with a strong will to live that made him transformed. Which is constant with how Goku get UI two more times during the tournament.

That and Goku got a form that gave him UI, not that the form itself is UI since it drastically increased his strength and speed.
No... Goku absorbed the Spirit bomb and broke his shell or basically his limits, AKA the potential within himself, when clashing with its power. Trauma + strong will to live sound plausible but it's also headcanon.

The 2nd time with Kefla was him running out of juice and clashing with Kefla's power which was on par with the Spirit bomb. And not sure how running out of stamina is supposed to lead to UI either.

The 3rd time was him running out of juice and thinking about his friends. Not sure how thinking about his friends is supposed to lead to UI either.

UI is a deus ex machina form imo, but anime UI was treated as a Deus Ex Machina is the purest sense.

And the form itself is UI. It's literally called UI by all official media. It's a technique when used by Whis/Beerus but somehow a form when utilized by Goku, which is what peeves me right from the start.

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Re: To me, Ultra Instinct feels like it came out of nowhere

Post by HeroR » Wed May 15, 2019 12:19 am

Rakurai wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 10:49 pm
HeroR wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 6:57 pm

That isn't what happened. Goku got UI by breaking into his inner most shell trying not to die. So it was basically trauma mixed with a strong will to live that made him transformed. Which is constant with how Goku get UI two more times during the tournament.

That and Goku got a form that gave him UI, not that the form itself is UI since it drastically increased his strength and speed.
No... Goku absorbed the Spirit bomb and broke his shell or basically his limits, AKA the potential within himself, when clashing with its power. Trauma + strong will to live sound plausible but it's also headcanon.

The 2nd time with Kefla was him running out of juice and clashing with Kefla's power which was on par with the Spirit bomb. And not sure how running out of stamina is supposed to lead to UI either.

The 3rd time was him running out of juice and thinking about his friends. Not sure how thinking about his friends is supposed to lead to UI either.

UI is a deus ex machina form imo, but anime UI was treated as a Deus Ex Machina is the purest sense.

And the form itself is UI. It's literally called UI by all official media. It's a technique when used by Whis/Beerus but somehow a form when utilized by Goku, which is what peeves me right from the start.
Goku didn't absorbed the Spirit Bomb. It was explicitly said in both the sub and dub that he didn't: https://youtu.be/0Jn_YY19qas?t=126 and https://youtu.be/6VSUvTp3eXk?t=118

All the Spirit Bomb did was refueled his body. It was Goku's will not to die and resist his own Spirit Bomb that broke his shell. So it isn't 'head canon' as you put it. Here is the exact explanation here: https://youtu.be/6VSUvTp3eXk?t=147

As for Kelfa, she brought out UI because Goku's body was responding to her power, which rivaled the Spirit Bomb, not because he was tired: https://youtu.be/xP6QJzEc_jA?t=88

Again, it wasn't Goku running out of stamina, it was Goku's responding to a need, similar to Kelfa and the time he nearly died. In this case, if he lost then, then he would have been erased along with his friends.

That isn't the proper used of Deus Ex Machina. Deus Ex Machina is when something happened with no foreshadowing or explanation. Even Goku going UI the first time doesn't really fall into Deus Ex Machina since it was explained earlier. But even if I agree the first time was a Deus Ex Machina, the other two times wouldn't be since we know UI exists.

No, the form itself isn't UI since we have seen people used UI and it doesn't jack up their power. For Goku, it's a form that gives him UI, which is why his power and speed drastically increases. Just because the form is called UI doesn't mean it's being literal, especially when no one else transforms to use UI.
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Re: To me, Ultra Instinct feels like it came out of nowhere

Post by Rakurai » Wed May 15, 2019 10:22 am

HeroR wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 12:19 am

Goku didn't absorbed the Spirit Bomb. It was explicitly said in both the sub and dub that he didn't: https://youtu.be/0Jn_YY19qas?t=126 and https://youtu.be/6VSUvTp3eXk?t=118

All the Spirit Bomb did was refueled his body. It was Goku's will not to die and resist his own Spirit Bomb that broke his shell. So it isn't 'head canon' as you put it. Here is the exact explanation here: https://youtu.be/6VSUvTp3eXk?t=147

As for Kelfa, she brought out UI because Goku's body was responding to her power, which rivaled the Spirit Bomb, not because he was tired: https://youtu.be/xP6QJzEc_jA?t=88

Again, it wasn't Goku running out of stamina, it was Goku's responding to a need, similar to Kelfa and the time he nearly died. In this case, if he lost then, then he would have been erased along with his friends.

That isn't the proper used of Deus Ex Machina. Deus Ex Machina is when something happened with no foreshadowing or explanation. Even Goku going UI the first time doesn't really fall into Deus Ex Machina since it was explained earlier. But even if I agree the first time was a Deus Ex Machina, the other two times wouldn't be since we know UI exists.

No, the form itself isn't UI since we have seen people used UI and it doesn't jack up their power. For Goku, it's a form that gives him UI, which is why his power and speed drastically increases. Just because the form is called UI doesn't mean it's being literal, especially when no one else transforms to use UI.
Wait, what?

Goku absorbing Spirit bomb = refueling his body. They are the same thing, it's not supposed to be that deep and I'm not playing a game of semantics here. Whis didn't disagree with that, he disagreed that that alone didn't explain his boost in power, it was breaking his shell that did.

You said "trauma mixed in with strong will to live" which is not the same as "resisting the Spirit bomb" and "breaking his shell" or his limits. Your explanation implies some kind of deep mental/psychological fortitude, which you could tout it to be that way, but this isn't One Piece. And I don't see how I said anything wrong in the first place.

Goku ran out of stamina at that time. The peanut gallery made a whole point about him almost being out of juice. This isn't debatable. Yes Kefla's power brought out UI but how could that be if he ran out of stamina unlike last time where he was refueled by the Spirit bomb? This is the part that makes no sense.

Goku was beat up and reverted from SSB and back into base. Jiren said he was at his limit. He was 100% tired and also thinking about his friends. This isn't debatable either.

This is a point you're not going to win. The form itself, in all of its descriptions, in show or outside of the show, is described to be Ultra Instinct, not some mysterious form that provides UI. We also have UI "Omen" which is the prelude to UI. UI = white hair and square eyes.

I feel you're just arguing for the sake of arguing and not making any real cases to disprove my points.

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Re: To me, Ultra Instinct feels like it came out of nowhere

Post by HeroR » Wed May 15, 2019 1:20 pm

Rakurai wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 10:22 am
HeroR wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 12:19 am

Goku didn't absorbed the Spirit Bomb. It was explicitly said in both the sub and dub that he didn't: https://youtu.be/0Jn_YY19qas?t=126 and https://youtu.be/6VSUvTp3eXk?t=118

All the Spirit Bomb did was refueled his body. It was Goku's will not to die and resist his own Spirit Bomb that broke his shell. So it isn't 'head canon' as you put it. Here is the exact explanation here: https://youtu.be/6VSUvTp3eXk?t=147

As for Kelfa, she brought out UI because Goku's body was responding to her power, which rivaled the Spirit Bomb, not because he was tired: https://youtu.be/xP6QJzEc_jA?t=88

Again, it wasn't Goku running out of stamina, it was Goku's responding to a need, similar to Kelfa and the time he nearly died. In this case, if he lost then, then he would have been erased along with his friends.

That isn't the proper used of Deus Ex Machina. Deus Ex Machina is when something happened with no foreshadowing or explanation. Even Goku going UI the first time doesn't really fall into Deus Ex Machina since it was explained earlier. But even if I agree the first time was a Deus Ex Machina, the other two times wouldn't be since we know UI exists.

No, the form itself isn't UI since we have seen people used UI and it doesn't jack up their power. For Goku, it's a form that gives him UI, which is why his power and speed drastically increases. Just because the form is called UI doesn't mean it's being literal, especially when no one else transforms to use UI.
Wait, what?

Goku absorbing Spirit bomb = refueling his body. They are the same thing, it's not supposed to be that deep and I'm not playing a game of semantics here. Whis didn't disagree with that, he disagreed that that alone didn't explain his boost in power, it was breaking his shell that did.

You said "trauma mixed in with strong will to live" which is not the same as "resisting the Spirit bomb" and "breaking his shell" or his limits. Your explanation implies some kind of deep mental/psychological fortitude, which you could tout it to be that way, but this isn't One Piece. And I don't see how I said anything wrong in the first place.

Goku ran out of stamina at that time. The peanut gallery made a whole point about him almost being out of juice. This isn't debatable. Yes Kefla's power brought out UI but how could that be if he ran out of stamina unlike last time where he was refueled by the Spirit bomb? This is the part that makes no sense.

Goku was beat up and reverted from SSB and back into base. Jiren said he was at his limit. He was 100% tired and also thinking about his friends. This isn't debatable either.

This is a point you're not going to win. The form itself, in all of its descriptions, in show or outside of the show, is described to be Ultra Instinct, not some mysterious form that provides UI. We also have UI "Omen" which is the prelude to UI. UI = white hair and square eyes.

I feel you're just arguing for the sake of arguing and not making any real cases to disprove my points.
There are not the same thing when the show literally said it wasn't. It isn't semantics when the show tells you 'no, that isn't what happened'.

Resisting the Spirit Bomb means resisting death since the Spirit Bomb would have killed him if he didn't resist. So yes, Goku's stubborn refusal to die is what allowed him to break his shell and get UI. And what does One Piece have to do with anything?

Except it wasn't just 'being out of juice' that cause it since as Whis said, the trigger wasn't being tired. In Kelfa's case, it was her power rivaling the Spirit Bomb. The third time, it was more trust and desire to honor his friends. It wasn't just 'Goku is tired' since Goku has been running on fumes since Jiren beat him in 110 and he didn't get UI when he was lying on the ground and Vegeta needed to give him energy.

It isn't about 'winning', it's a fact. If it was just UI, Goku's power wouldn't have increased. Especially when literally no one else transforms when using UI. Like Beerus in the manga used UI, yet his eyes didn't suddenly change color, so acting like UI itself is a form doesn't make any sense.
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Re: To me, Ultra Instinct feels like it came out of nowhere

Post by Rakurai » Wed May 15, 2019 3:56 pm

HeroR wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 1:20 pm

There are not the same thing when the show literally said it wasn't. It isn't semantics when the show tells you 'no, that isn't what happened'.

Resisting the Spirit Bomb means resisting death since the Spirit Bomb would have killed him if he didn't resist. So yes, Goku's stubborn refusal to die is what allowed him to break his shell and get UI. And what does One Piece have to do with anything?

Except it wasn't just 'being out of juice' that cause it since as Whis said, the trigger wasn't being tired. In Kelfa's case, it was her power rivaling the Spirit Bomb. The third time, it was more trust and desire to honor his friends. It wasn't just 'Goku is tired' since Goku has been running on fumes since Jiren beat him in 110 and he didn't get UI when he was lying on the ground and Vegeta needed to give him energy.

It isn't about 'winning', it's a fact. If it was just UI, Goku's power wouldn't have increased. Especially when literally no one else transforms when using UI. Like Beerus in the manga used UI, yet his eyes didn't suddenly change color, so acting like UI itself is a form doesn't make any sense.
I'm not sure if you're being intentionally twisting the narrative or just being ignorant. Please don't make me spoonfeed you the breakdown when the context was clear. Whis didn't disagree with Goku absorbing the Spirit bomb, he disagreed that that alone didn't explain his boost in power. He absorbs the Spirit bomb, pushed his limits in colliding his power with it, and somehow he gets auto-dodge. It also partly makes him a Mary Sue because an extremely powerful attack that should've killed him now gives him a new form. Compared to the principles of how to acquire UI established in the manga, the anime makes the reasons arbitrary.

I'm not saying being tired is the key reason for going UI. I'm saying being able to transform in UI while being tired or drained of stamina is senseless.

Facts: Goku's transformation is known as UI "Omen" and UI. All characters and official media consider it as such. Good luck trying to convince anybody else otherwise.

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Re: To me, Ultra Instinct feels like it came out of nowhere

Post by ankokudaishogun » Wed May 15, 2019 4:16 pm

HeroR wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:31 pm
Goku clearly got stronger with UI in the manga. He went from no doing anything at all against Jiren to smashing him even when Jiren got serious.
not exactly.

First, Manga Jiren wasn't as absurdly strong as Anime Jiren.
Anime Jiren was a complete monster. He was basically Perfect Cell to Namek Goku.
Manga Jiren was "just" stronger than Goku.

And it was stated explicitly that Goku was managing to harm him while in UI because he would automatically strike Jiren's blind and weak points the instant he would lower guard on them: basically, Manga UI is using AutoCrit

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