Uub's role after EOZ

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Re: Uub's role after EOZ

Post by Skar » Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:27 am

Lord Beerus wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:42 pm
Team a teenage Oob with a teenage Bra and Pan and an adult Trunks and Goten to spearhead an ensemble cast of martial artists, while having Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo and occasionally Gohan in the background to serve as mentors and important supporting character for certain conflicts.

Seriously... it's THAT fucking easy.
To be honest, the fact that it's so easy means they've probably already considered it. Toriyama doesn't seem to have any interest in the next generation since he set all of DBS before EoZ and it's likely Toei would continue without him. If they do continue on their own, it would most likely focus on Goku rather than give him a minor role.

I don't think any series that transitioned to a new generation has ever had as much success as their predecessors. Boruto isn't as successful as Naruto. In some stories, Bruce Wayne retires and passes the torch to an older Robin or new, younger Batman but there's new comics, films, video games, etc still about Bruce Wayne as Batman. Digimon has a new generation each season but the first was the most popular which is probably why Toei decided to give a sequel and an upcoming movie. Dragonball could be the exception but I think it's unlikely anyone involved is willing to go to the effort of developing a new generation and risk it being less successful than what they're currently doing. I think fans like us on forums are in the minority who care at all about the next generation while the majority may consider Dragonball as Goku's story.

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Re: Uub's role after EOZ

Post by Tai Lung » Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:58 pm

the point is not that "it is easy" but rather that the fans like that and can make well but I think we have already passed that "thread" a while ago, if gohan did not work ... I see difficult that someone else does and the "record of attempts" is not good at all.
It goes without saying that the bio-broly movie starring goten and trunks was horrible and the goku jr movie was even worse, yes it was tried many times ... it did not work

my problem is that a story with uub "now" as protagonist would have a very different approach and you would have to abandon the new concepts and characters you were working with ... now you lose more than you earn ... and nothing guarantees that the new thing that they bring with uub is better, I only see uub staying on earth until a new enemy appears.
I include myself in the group of people who "before" expected a story with uub, goten, trunks and probably bra and pan but now ... cabba has a personality that could have been uub, broly appears as an ally besides caulifla, kale and kefla are the first super saiyan girls and female fusion all this was used and and if we are going to have more of the same, why not only use what we already have?.

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Re: Uub's role after EOZ

Post by Super Murjin » Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:17 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:58 pm
the point is not that "it is easy" but rather that the fans like that and can make well but I think we have already passed that "thread" a while ago, if gohan did not work ... I see difficult that someone else does and the "record of attempts" is not good at all.
It goes without saying that the bio-broly movie starring goten and trunks was horrible and the goku jr movie was even worse, yes it was tried many times ... it did not work

my problem is that a story with uub "now" as protagonist would have a very different approach and you would have to abandon the new concepts and characters you were working with ... now you lose more than you earn ... and nothing guarantees that the new thing that they bring with uub is better, I only see uub staying on earth until a new enemy appears.
I include myself in the group of people who "before" expected a story with uub, goten, trunks and probably bra and pan but now ... cabba has a personality that could have been uub, broly appears as an ally besides caulifla, kale and kefla are the first super saiyan girls and female fusion all this was used and and if we are going to have more of the same, why not only use what we already have?.
Could have Uub have 1 or maybe 2 arcs, and then bring back Goku. Maybe Goku is away for 5 years training. Would be exciting to see what new levels of power he would have attained in that time frame.

If a future arc where to introduce a multi-universal threat .... all our favorite characters can have a chance to be involved in the conflict.
Almost like Avengers Endgame only better. If it is a full arc that runs for 50 plus episodes, it would epic. Seeing Broly, Jiren, Kale, Uub, Hit and Toppo all work together to fend off an almighty enemy would be amazing.

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Re: Uub's role after EOZ

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:19 pm

Skar wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:27 am
I don't think any series that transitioned to a new generation has ever had as much success as their predecessors.
JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, Star Trek, Star Wars, Rocky and Mad Max are proof you can have a fresh, young and new cast of character in an already established series and it can be just as, if not not more so, successful than what preceded it.

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Re: Uub's role after EOZ

Post by Super Murjin » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:26 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:19 pm
Skar wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:27 am
I don't think any series that transitioned to a new generation has ever had as much success as their predecessors.
JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, Star Trek, Star Wars, Rocky and Mad Max are proof you can have a fresh, young and new cast of character in an already established series and it can be just as, if not not more so, successful than what preceded it.
I couldn't think of any examples at the time, but yeah this is perfect!

Captain Kirk to Captain Picard
Anakin to Luke to Rey
Rocky Balboa to Adonis Creed
Goku to Uub???

maybe :wink:

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Re: Uub's role after EOZ

Post by Skar » Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:51 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:19 pm
JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, Star Trek, Star Wars, Rocky and Mad Max are proof you can have a fresh, young and new cast of character in an already established series and it can be just as, if not not more so, successful than what preceded it.
JoJo's Bizarre Adventure established early on that it wouldn't have one main character and it changes every story arc. The rest were Western series and probably the few exceptions. Is there an anime that had the same protagonist for hundreds of chapters/episode of then successfully transitioned to a new generation?

There's also the fact that Toriyama himself doesn't seem interested in exploring the next generation. The examples you listed had sequels that came directly after to continue their stories while DBS has been an interquel to basically avoid going past the original ending. It would be like a new Terminator series with multiple films alll taking place between the first and second films. I'm a fan of Uub but I think Dragonball I'd more likely to end for good and tie into EoZ than going past it at this point.

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Re: Uub's role after EOZ

Post by HeroR » Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:54 pm

Skar wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:27 am
Lord Beerus wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:42 pm
Team a teenage Oob with a teenage Bra and Pan and an adult Trunks and Goten to spearhead an ensemble cast of martial artists, while having Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo and occasionally Gohan in the background to serve as mentors and important supporting character for certain conflicts.

Seriously... it's THAT fucking easy.
To be honest, the fact that it's so easy means they've probably already considered it. Toriyama doesn't seem to have any interest in the next generation since he set all of DBS before EoZ and it's likely Toei would continue without him. If they do continue on their own, it would most likely focus on Goku rather than give him a minor role.

I don't think any series that transitioned to a new generation has ever had as much success as their predecessors. Boruto isn't as successful as Naruto. In some stories, Bruce Wayne retires and passes the torch to an older Robin or new, younger Batman but there's new comics, films, video games, etc still about Bruce Wayne as Batman. Digimon has a new generation each season but the first was the most popular which is probably why Toei decided to give a sequel and an upcoming movie. Dragonball could be the exception but I think it's unlikely anyone involved is willing to go to the effort of developing a new generation and risk it being less successful than what they're currently doing. I think fans like us on forums are in the minority who care at all about the next generation while the majority may consider Dragonball as Goku's story.
Jo Jo, but it started early as a generational story. Batman Beyond was also highly successful, but it was more of a spinoff.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Uub's role after EOZ

Post by emperior » Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:53 pm

The truth is that Super has COMPLETELY dropped one of the main thematics of Dragon Ball (and a very consistent one throughout the whole manga run) of “the new generation is better than the old one” which was first introduced back during the 21st Budokai Tenkaichi, became prominent during the 22nd, paid off during King Piccolo arc and was restarted from the Saiyan arc (Gohan) with the payoff against Cell. Then it was picked up once again when Goku wanted Goten and Trunks “the new generation” to handle Buu — that never got any pay off due to how immature the kids were but the thematic was still there and culminated into the manga’s ending where Goku goes off to train Uub.

With Super, all of this has been lost. Goten and Trunks are treated like idiots who can’t and won’t be able to ever do nothing just because they messed up once when they were respectively 6 and 7.
Krillin has come out of retirement twice, same for Roshi who was the one who kickstarted the whole “the old generation should retire” thing.

I think it’s about time for Goku and Vegeta to become masters and nurture the new generation. Hell, make it part of their quest to become better martial artists themselves! I can get if those two won’t be retired, but Krillin, Roshi, Tenshinan should be retired for good.
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Re: Uub's role after EOZ

Post by Super Murjin » Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:36 pm

emperior wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:53 pm
The truth is that Super has COMPLETELY dropped one of the main thematics of Dragon Ball (and a very consistent one throughout the whole manga run) of “the new generation is better than the old one” which was first introduced back during the 21st Budokai Tenkaichi, became prominent during the 22nd, paid off during King Piccolo arc and was restarted from the Saiyan arc (Gohan) with the payoff against Cell. Then it was picked up once again when Goku wanted Goten and Trunks “the new generation” to handle Buu — that never got any pay off due to how immature the kids were but the thematic was still there and culminated into the manga’s ending where Goku goes off to train Uub.

With Super, all of this has been lost. Goten and Trunks are treated like idiots who can’t and won’t be able to ever do nothing just because they messed up once when they were respectively 6 and 7.
Krillin has come out of retirement twice, same for Roshi who was the one who kickstarted the whole “the old generation should retire” thing.

I think it’s about time for Goku and Vegeta to become masters and nurture the new generation. Hell, make it part of their quest to become better martial artists themselves! I can get if those two won’t be retired, but Krillin, Roshi, Tenshinan should be retired for good.
I was hoping for Goku to train Uub and Vegeta to train Cabba .
It would be cool to see Goku and Vegeta have their students fight each other to see who is the better master to their students.
Could be both epic and humorous.

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Re: Uub's role after EOZ

Post by emperior » Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:45 am

Super Murjin wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:36 pm
emperior wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:53 pm
The truth is that Super has COMPLETELY dropped one of the main thematics of Dragon Ball (and a very consistent one throughout the whole manga run) of “the new generation is better than the old one” which was first introduced back during the 21st Budokai Tenkaichi, became prominent during the 22nd, paid off during King Piccolo arc and was restarted from the Saiyan arc (Gohan) with the payoff against Cell. Then it was picked up once again when Goku wanted Goten and Trunks “the new generation” to handle Buu — that never got any pay off due to how immature the kids were but the thematic was still there and culminated into the manga’s ending where Goku goes off to train Uub.

With Super, all of this has been lost. Goten and Trunks are treated like idiots who can’t and won’t be able to ever do nothing just because they messed up once when they were respectively 6 and 7.
Krillin has come out of retirement twice, same for Roshi who was the one who kickstarted the whole “the old generation should retire” thing.

I think it’s about time for Goku and Vegeta to become masters and nurture the new generation. Hell, make it part of their quest to become better martial artists themselves! I can get if those two won’t be retired, but Krillin, Roshi, Tenshinan should be retired for good.
I was hoping for Goku to train Uub and Vegeta to train Cabba .
It would be cool to see Goku and Vegeta have their students fight each other to see who is the better master to their students.
Could be both epic and humorous.
I wish to see such a thing happen so much! It would be cool to have some low-stake arc, maybe even a tournament arc a la 21st-22nd Budokai Tenkaichi, where Goku and Vegeta bring their pupils and have them fight after having trained them for a while. It wouldn’t have to take place on Earth, it could be an event on another planet.
I would also love to see the contrast between Goku’s and Vegeta’s training methods.
My canon

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Re: Uub's role after EOZ

Post by AnimeNation101 » Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:57 pm

emperior wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:45 am
Super Murjin wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:36 pm
emperior wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:53 pm
The truth is that Super has COMPLETELY dropped one of the main thematics of Dragon Ball (and a very consistent one throughout the whole manga run) of “the new generation is better than the old one” which was first introduced back during the 21st Budokai Tenkaichi, became prominent during the 22nd, paid off during King Piccolo arc and was restarted from the Saiyan arc (Gohan) with the payoff against Cell. Then it was picked up once again when Goku wanted Goten and Trunks “the new generation” to handle Buu — that never got any pay off due to how immature the kids were but the thematic was still there and culminated into the manga’s ending where Goku goes off to train Uub.

With Super, all of this has been lost. Goten and Trunks are treated like idiots who can’t and won’t be able to ever do nothing just because they messed up once when they were respectively 6 and 7.
Krillin has come out of retirement twice, same for Roshi who was the one who kickstarted the whole “the old generation should retire” thing.

I think it’s about time for Goku and Vegeta to become masters and nurture the new generation. Hell, make it part of their quest to become better martial artists themselves! I can get if those two won’t be retired, but Krillin, Roshi, Tenshinan should be retired for good.
I was hoping for Goku to train Uub and Vegeta to train Cabba .
It would be cool to see Goku and Vegeta have their students fight each other to see who is the better master to their students.
Could be both epic and humorous.
I wish to see such a thing happen so much! It would be cool to have some low-stake arc, maybe even a tournament arc a la 21st-22nd Budokai Tenkaichi, where Goku and Vegeta bring their pupils and have them fight after having trained them for a while. It wouldn’t have to take place on Earth, it could be an event on another planet.
I would also love to see the contrast between Goku’s and Vegeta’s training methods.
I can see it now. The finals are Cabba vs Uub. They could end up becoming like how Kid Goku and Krillin were (even though there is a little age gap between the 2).
I called it that Gogeta, Bardock, and something Broly related would be in the movie before it was even announced that it was a Broly movie. 8)

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Re: Uub's role after EOZ

Post by Tai Lung » Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:42 pm

Super Murjin wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:17 pm
Tai Lung wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:58 pm
the point is not that "it is easy" but rather that the fans like that and can make well but I think we have already passed that "thread" a while ago, if gohan did not work ... I see difficult that someone else does and the "record of attempts" is not good at all.
It goes without saying that the bio-broly movie starring goten and trunks was horrible and the goku jr movie was even worse, yes it was tried many times ... it did not work

my problem is that a story with uub "now" as protagonist would have a very different approach and you would have to abandon the new concepts and characters you were working with ... now you lose more than you earn ... and nothing guarantees that the new thing that they bring with uub is better, I only see uub staying on earth until a new enemy appears.
I include myself in the group of people who "before" expected a story with uub, goten, trunks and probably bra and pan but now ... cabba has a personality that could have been uub, broly appears as an ally besides caulifla, kale and kefla are the first super saiyan girls and female fusion all this was used and and if we are going to have more of the same, why not only use what we already have?.
Could have Uub have 1 or maybe 2 arcs, and then bring back Goku. Maybe Goku is away for 5 years training. Would be exciting to see what new levels of power he would have attained in that time frame.

If a future arc where to introduce a multi-universal threat .... all our favorite characters can have a chance to be involved in the conflict.
Almost like Avengers Endgame only better. If it is a full arc that runs for 50 plus episodes, it would epic. Seeing Broly, Jiren, Kale, Uub, Hit and Toppo all work together to fend off an almighty enemy would be amazing.
that would be good but the problem with dragon ball has always been that ... the cast varied but many characters were forgotten and taking into account that the current expectation about broly, sadala arc, the time traveler of the universe 12 and the killer from master of jiren ...
uub does not seem like a priority

that and that in general saiyans are more popular
Lord Beerus wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:19 pm
Skar wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:27 am
I don't think any series that transitioned to a new generation has ever had as much success as their predecessors.
JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, Star Trek, Star Wars, Rocky and Mad Max are proof you can have a fresh, young and new cast of character in an already established series and it can be just as, if not not more so, successful than what preceded it.
I could swear that none of those had a protagonist for over 15 years, especially star wars. Every 3 movies change the main character that can not be completely connected with the spectator.
other examples many love digimon adventure, many hate digimon 2 but that improved in digimon 3 etc
It also depends on the cast of characters
and by the way someone is asked because there is no xeno uub? and unfortunately the character is not very commercial unlike the saiyan
AnimeNation101 wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:57 pm
emperior wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:45 am
Super Murjin wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:36 pm

I was hoping for Goku to train Uub and Vegeta to train Cabba .
It would be cool to see Goku and Vegeta have their students fight each other to see who is the better master to their students.
Could be both epic and humorous.
I wish to see such a thing happen so much! It would be cool to have some low-stake arc, maybe even a tournament arc a la 21st-22nd Budokai Tenkaichi, where Goku and Vegeta bring their pupils and have them fight after having trained them for a while. It wouldn’t have to take place on Earth, it could be an event on another planet.
I would also love to see the contrast between Goku’s and Vegeta’s training methods.
I can see it now. The finals are Cabba vs Uub. They could end up becoming like how Kid Goku and Krillin were (even though there is a little age gap between the 2).
that is the main reason ... super should have been done after the epilogue and not before ..

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Re: Uub's role after EOZ

Post by Mnich » Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:05 pm

Whatever will be his new role, I just hope they won't merge him with Majin Buu again like they did in GT. I liked that concept for the first time and Majuub was cool, but I hope they won't do something similar. Even that Majin Buu is now doing almost nothing but sleep, I think they should stay as a separate characters. Maybe they will find some other power up technique for both of them.

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Re: Uub's role after EOZ

Post by Gokitalo » Fri Jun 28, 2019 7:27 pm

Skar wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:27 am
I don't think any series that transitioned to a new generation has ever had as much success as their predecessors. Boruto isn't as successful as Naruto. In some stories, Bruce Wayne retires and passes the torch to an older Robin or new, younger Batman but there's new comics, films, video games, etc still about Bruce Wayne as Batman. Digimon has a new generation each season but the first was the most popular which is probably why Toei decided to give a sequel and an upcoming movie.
There are exceptions, though. One example I brought up in a previous thread about Uub was the DC Comics character Wally West, who ended up becoming more popular as the Flash than his predecessor, Barry Allen: so much so that when Barry was brought back as the "main" Flash and DC rebooted its main fictional universe in 2011, Wally's personality was essentially "grafted" onto Barry to make him more popular. In fact, DC Comics has a pretty okay track record with successors: the Silver Age versions of Green Lantern, the Flash and the Atom, for example, definitely had a stronger impact than the Golden Age versions.

But you're right: it's not exactly a common phenomenon. I don't know if you can distill it to a formula, but I think you essentially have to make the successor distinct from the old one, yet just as (or more) compelling. Ditto their adventures: you not only want to largely avoid retreads, but you also want to be able to match or even improve on the original. Picard and TNG, as mentioned earlier, are perfect examples of how all that was successfully done.
emperior wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:53 pm
The truth is that Super has COMPLETELY dropped one of the main thematics of Dragon Ball (and a very consistent one throughout the whole manga run) of “the new generation is better than the old one” which was first introduced back during the 21st Budokai Tenkaichi, became prominent during the 22nd, paid off during King Piccolo arc and was restarted from the Saiyan arc (Gohan) with the payoff against Cell. Then it was picked up once again when Goku wanted Goten and Trunks “the new generation” to handle Buu — that never got any pay off due to how immature the kids were but the thematic was still there and culminated into the manga’s ending where Goku goes off to train Uub.

With Super, all of this has been lost. Goten and Trunks are treated like idiots who can’t and won’t be able to ever do nothing just because they messed up once when they were respectively 6 and 7.
Krillin has come out of retirement twice, same for Roshi who was the one who kickstarted the whole “the old generation should retire” thing.
I don't entirely agree with that, though, because as long as Super takes place before the End of Z, the idea of passing the baton onto the next generation remains: Goku's still going to train Uub as a successor at the end of it all. Plus, the end of Z already showed us that Goten and Trunks ultimately lost interest in fighting, and Super just might be showing us the genesis of that. So we've already known for years that when it comes to being "the next generation" of fighters/heroes, Goten and Trunks dropped out of the running.

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Re: Uub's role after EOZ

Post by Lionel » Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:27 pm

It's not just the successional generations concept that's been put to the side, ever since the late Buu arc the series has been consolidated around the tales of Goku and Vegeta as they predictably climb up the deity ladder taking on one menace at a time. While Goku has almost always been the main protagonist of the show with events revolving around him, the others did have their roles to play and we followed their efforts as well as they improved. The problem now is that Dragon Ball hasn't been interested in the gradual investment of its broader core cast for some time outside of snippets of their domestic lives which are a side attraction to what DB is primarily about. Sure, the non-tournament arcs since Future Trunks provide a guest appearance for a third fighter but it's not anything long term.

Who else in the current generation, not the next but the presently active one, is still an engaged piece on the chessboard outside of the aforementioned pair? It's certainly not Piccolo or Tenshinhan, and they're the only ones who still train besides Goku and Vegeta. Poor Piccolo hasn't gotten anything in this arc so far outside of a brief cameo despite the arc involving a return to Namek with his species currently on the brink of extinction yet again.

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Re: Uub's role after EOZ

Post by Muffin Man » Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:33 am

Dragon Ball has had a pretty simple winning formula ever since the Red Ribbon Arc, really (though it was more clearly defined starting with the King Piccolo arc). Have the heroes become entangled in some sort of hijinks that causes them to come across a bunch of incrementally-powered villains who are working toward some nefarious goal. The heroes fight and defeat the villains in various fun-to-watch ways, leading to the arrival of new villains and other new plot developments, all while a Big Bad is looming in the background. Then you finally have the Big Bad emerge in grandiose fashion, at which point the heroes face the Big Bad and defeat him after a prolonged, multi-stage battle.

The problem with Super is that it abandoned the formula without replacing it with a new one, giving it a very aimless, directionless feel. Beerus shows up and everyone sort of dicks around until Beerus fights Goku. Frieza shows up and everyone mindlessly fights a bunch of fodder until Goku and Vegeta show up to fight and defeat Frieza. A tournament arc is stretched out to take the place of a real arc. Then we get another tournament arc exept everyone fights eachother at the same time.

The only arc that followed the formula was the Zamasu arc, but it was extremely simplified and rushed due to its short length. It's like they realized ten episodes into the Zamasu arc that having an actual structured plot was too hard, so they went back to just having the characters do whatever.

So ultimately I don't think it matters if they replace Goku and Vegeta with a new generation. What needs to happen is they need to start giving the story arcs the kind of stuctured skeleton that made the original DB/Z story arcs so popular to begin with. This would, naturally, lead to more characters being relevant than just Goku and Vegeta, but whether or not it focuses mainly on Goku or mainly on Uub isn't so important as long as they're both doing something interesting that moves the plot forward.

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Re: Uub's role after EOZ

Post by jollyr » Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:48 pm

I agree with the post above me. DBZ was downright poetic in its writing sometimes and the story sort of came together organically. The whole beginning of the DBZ to the end of Frieza was just so well planned and interesting. And I've always loved the android/cell saga. Super has been rushed and not planned at all and it shows. There's no care put into it and I hope the reason they're taking such a long break without even an announcement is because they're actually trying this time. Now they have a lot of different plot threads now and a lot of places they can go but supers story and writing pales in comparison to the original series

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Re: Uub's role after EOZ

Post by HeroR » Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:04 pm

jollyr wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:48 pm
I agree with the post above me. DBZ was downright poetic in its writing sometimes and the story sort of came together organically. The whole beginning of the DBZ to the end of Frieza was just so well planned and interesting. And I've always loved the android/cell saga. Super has been rushed and not planned at all and it shows. There's no care put into it and I hope the reason they're taking such a long break without even an announcement is because they're actually trying this time. Now they have a lot of different plot threads now and a lot of places they can go but supers story and writing pales in comparison to the original series

Super was far more planned than the Dragon Ball manga since Toriyama freely admitted that he was making stuff up as he went along, especially in the Buu Saga, while Super's arcs needed to be planned from beginning to end months in advance so the writers and animators are on the same page.

And to be frank, the original manga's writer went into the dumpster after the Freeza Saga and became a tale of everyone acting stupid to keep the plot going.
Muffin Man wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:33 am
Dragon Ball has had a pretty simple winning formula ever since the Red Ribbon Arc, really (though it was more clearly defined starting with the King Piccolo arc). Have the heroes become entangled in some sort of hijinks that causes them to come across a bunch of incrementally-powered villains who are working toward some nefarious goal. The heroes fight and defeat the villains in various fun-to-watch ways, leading to the arrival of new villains and other new plot developments, all while a Big Bad is looming in the background. Then you finally have the Big Bad emerge in grandiose fashion, at which point the heroes face the Big Bad and defeat him after a prolonged, multi-stage battle.

The problem with Super is that it abandoned the formula without replacing it with a new one, giving it a very aimless, directionless feel. Beerus shows up and everyone sort of dicks around until Beerus fights Goku. Frieza shows up and everyone mindlessly fights a bunch of fodder until Goku and Vegeta show up to fight and defeat Frieza. A tournament arc is stretched out to take the place of a real arc. Then we get another tournament arc exept everyone fights eachother at the same time.

The only arc that followed the formula was the Zamasu arc, but it was extremely simplified and rushed due to its short length. It's like they realized ten episodes into the Zamasu arc that having an actual structured plot was too hard, so they went back to just having the characters do whatever.

So ultimately I don't think it matters if they replace Goku and Vegeta with a new generation. What needs to happen is they need to start giving the story arcs the kind of stuctured skeleton that made the original DB/Z story arcs so popular to begin with. This would, naturally, lead to more characters being relevant than just Goku and Vegeta, but whether or not it focuses mainly on Goku or mainly on Uub isn't so important as long as they're both doing something interesting that moves the plot forward.
I take it you never watched Yu Yu Hakusho where the Dark Tournament was most of the manga and it was great. Saying that a tournament taking a place of a real arc is mind numbing. Especially when the original Dragon Ball had four tournament sagas with with two of them being low stakes.

Also, the best way to described Dragon Ball's formula in the end was that everyone acts dumb to keep the plot going.

Also, despite the Future Trunks Saga being shorter than the Dragon Ball Z arcs, it wasn't simplified since Zamasu and Black had more going for them than being evil dicks for the sake of being evil dicks.

Overall, leave the storytelling of Dragon Ball and Z in the past. If I wanted Z again, I would watched that.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

Muffin Man
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Re: Uub's role after EOZ

Post by Muffin Man » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:44 pm

HeroR wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:04 pm
I take it you never watched Yu Yu Hakusho where the Dark Tournament was most of the manga and it was great. Saying that a tournament taking a place of a real arc is mind numbing. Especially when the original Dragon Ball had four tournament sagas with with two of them being low stakes.

Also, the best way to described Dragon Ball's formula in the end was that everyone acts dumb to keep the plot going.

Also, despite the Future Trunks Saga being shorter than the Dragon Ball Z arcs, it wasn't simplified since Zamasu and Black had more going for them than being evil dicks for the sake of being evil dicks.

Overall, leave the storytelling of Dragon Ball and Z in the past. If I wanted Z again, I would watched that.
A DB tournament arc is not comparable to a Yu Yu Hakusho tournament arc. DB tournament arcs are fun, but they are extremely simple and were meant to be a cool down between the main story arcs, where more diverse plot directions would occur. The two tournament arcs in DBS were written like stretched out DB tournaments, not Yu Yu Hakusho tournaments.

The Z-fighters do make a lot of stupid decisions in the Cell and Buu sagas, and that's a valid criticism, but the stupid decisions still led to lots of crazy new things happening, each event a new little mini arc basically, which keeps the audience engaged. There's a reason the Cell arc was such a popular arc despite the heroes making so many bad choices.

Zamasu having more grandiose motivations doesn't have anything to do with the complexity of the story. I'm talking about how A leads to B, which leads to C and D, while D lead to E and C leads to F, the E and F cross paths and lead to G, and so on and so forth. That's the kind of stuff we got a lot of in DB and DBZ but we only really had 12 episodes of it in Super.

HeroR
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Re: Uub's role after EOZ

Post by HeroR » Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:25 pm

Muffin Man wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:44 pm
HeroR wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:04 pm
I take it you never watched Yu Yu Hakusho where the Dark Tournament was most of the manga and it was great. Saying that a tournament taking a place of a real arc is mind numbing. Especially when the original Dragon Ball had four tournament sagas with with two of them being low stakes.

Also, the best way to described Dragon Ball's formula in the end was that everyone acts dumb to keep the plot going.

Also, despite the Future Trunks Saga being shorter than the Dragon Ball Z arcs, it wasn't simplified since Zamasu and Black had more going for them than being evil dicks for the sake of being evil dicks.

Overall, leave the storytelling of Dragon Ball and Z in the past. If I wanted Z again, I would watched that.
A DB tournament arc is not comparable to a Yu Yu Hakusho tournament arc. DB tournament arcs are fun, but they are extremely simple and were meant to be a cool down between the main story arcs, where more diverse plot directions would occur. The two tournament arcs in DBS were written like stretched out DB tournaments, not Yu Yu Hakusho tournaments.

The Z-fighters do make a lot of stupid decisions in the Cell and Buu sagas, and that's a valid criticism, but the stupid decisions still led to lots of crazy new things happening, each event a new little mini arc basically, which keeps the audience engaged. There's a reason the Cell arc was such a popular arc despite the heroes making so many bad choices.

Zamasu having more grandiose motivations doesn't have anything to do with the complexity of the story. I'm talking about how A leads to B, which leads to C and D, while D lead to E and C leads to F, the E and F cross paths and lead to G, and so on and so forth. That's the kind of stuff we got a lot of in DB and DBZ but we only really had 12 episodes of it in Super.

No it wasn't. The three Dragon Ball tournaments were all treated as major arcs with the last one being the finale of the original Dragon Ball. Saying that they were just 'cool down arcs' just isn't true. They're no different that the Dragon Ball Super tournaments.

Crazy stuff that didn't need to happened. I prefer a shorter arc over the character acting like morons to the point that I stopped caring what happened to them. Also, the Cell Saga is far less popular in Japan than it is in the west. Probably because the west loves Cell far more than Japan ever did.

It did since it gave more to the story than 'evil asshole doing asshole things, Z-Fighters tries to stop them'. That and Super did have a lot of A goes to B.

Beerus coming to Earth led to Champa being interested in Earth which lead to the Champa Saga, the events of the Champa Saga made Zamasu jump one year into the future to used the Super Dragon Balls, which led him to murder his master. Him seeing Goku fight in the Champa's tournament also pushed him over the edge. Universal Survival Saga combine all the stories of Super together with bringing back Freeza since he got stronger in Resurrection 'F', UI being fleshed out, and the entire tournament happened because Zeno say Champa's tournament and wanted one himself. Saying it was only 12 episodes in Super shows very shallow view.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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