A state higher than Ultra Instinct?

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emperior
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Re: A state higher than Ultra Instinct?

Post by emperior » Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:43 pm

Lionel wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:08 am
I didn't like the fact that they turned Ultra Instinct into a pseudo-transformation for Goku in the first place. This concept only serves to continually stack onto the already oversized pile of hair colour forms that exist. No one else besides Goku and maybe Vegeta is going to use them. I say let them take a more technical approach and shift away from the transformations. The whole "greatest fighters in the universe" shtick has been in some desperate need for a more skill oriented exhibition for some time now.
Well Ultra Instinct has basically brought things back to the progression Dragon Ball was following before the Saiyan arc kicked in and it all became about power and power alone.
I liked it when characters were still learning new stuff such as ki sensing. Ultra Instinct could theoretically bring back the “Goku has to learn this new thing to improve as a martial artist” which has been missing for quite a while, although God ki sort of had that sense of progression, especially for Vegeta who didn’t get it through a ritual.
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Super Murjin
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Re: A state higher than Ultra Instinct?

Post by Super Murjin » Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:30 pm

Goku's goal should be to master UI. It would make it more interesting if it required many many years of training (not in the room of spirit and time). He would need to learn how to keep the form for a longer period of time, for his body not to breakdown or be super strained and to further strengthen his power within the UI state/form.

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Re: A state higher than Ultra Instinct?

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:01 pm

Goku could still become stronger than he was when he fought Jiren in his Ultra Instinct state, so he could have more strength related transformations, but he'll never surpass the state of mind he was in, because UI is the ultimate state of mind for a martial artist to have during a fight.

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Re: A state higher than Ultra Instinct?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:25 am

I think a better way to do it would be to have Ultra Instinct always become stronger than Goku's current strongest form.

Basically, have Ultra Instinct be the ultimate limit-break that gets stronger as Goku gets stronger. It's already above the level of God of Destruction on top of Goku's normal base form and is essentially in the ballpark of SSB Fusion; it'll be hard to top becoming as strong as "SSB-level base with SSB on top" with another form, so why bother?

Make the new forms, but always have them be stepping stones that further grow out Ultra Instinct's power.

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Re: A state higher than Ultra Instinct?

Post by Jackalope89 » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:16 pm

Mega Ultra Instinct where Goku goes bald.

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Re: A state higher than Ultra Instinct?

Post by Dbzfan94 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:58 pm

Jackalope89 wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:16 pm
Mega Ultra Instinct where Goku goes bald.
Mega Ultra Instinct Tien confirmed?

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Re: A state higher than Ultra Instinct?

Post by Jackalope89 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:40 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:58 pm
Jackalope89 wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:16 pm
Mega Ultra Instinct where Goku goes bald.
Mega Ultra Instinct Tien confirmed?
Tien shaves.

Master Roshi more OP than Whis confirmed though.

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Re: A state higher than Ultra Instinct?

Post by ssj3kakarot » Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:29 pm

We are assuming the heirarchy goes something like this:

Zeno
Guards or Grand priest
Angels
Gods of Destruction
UI users
Everyone else.

Clearly it's implied Goku in MUI is above some if not all the Gods, as well as Jiren, but for simplicity, thats the gist.

Ultra instinct seems to either be a form/state that Angels came up with or tapped into 1st, hence they are basically walking ultra instinct users, badass really. We know Zeno is above them by a literal infinite amount, bc he is God. Whis and Vados gave credence that even a UI user can beat another UI user if one is in fact stronger.

I'd be okay if UI was the apex, and like many have said that Goku needs to work on mastering it. Mabye he has a side arc that focuses on him doing just that. Meanwhile, the other characters get time to shine and get stronger, share limelight, etc. Goku can't just come in and save them, bc reasons. It could be done well if some time and thoughtfulness went into it. They've done that throughout Dbz actually, but this time, keep Goku away on his arc so he doesn't always have to come in and save the day. Don't get me wrong, that's one of the reasons I enjoy Goku's character, but this way you can realisticly improve the abilites of people like Gohan or piccolo without it seeming like POS writing. Hell, maybe Vegeta has decided to rule the Saiyans of the other universe as King, so him and bulma and trunks leave entirely. Then Gohan and Piccolo have to be the leaders, Goku is mia with his UI training, and bingo bango. Everyone has a fulfiling and growing story arc.
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Re: A state higher than Ultra Instinct?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:19 am

Ultra Instinct is hard even for the Gods, and Beerus didn't master it yet.

so UI masters would be higher than GoSd without a mastered UI, unless you can master UI while being at a martial\power level so much lower than your opponent that auto-dodge is useless because he's just too fast for your body to dodge.
Which is kind of what happened with Jiren, really.

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Re: A state higher than Ultra Instinct?

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:35 pm

Higher than Ultra Instinct, if Goku becomes Super Saiyan while in the Ultra Instinct mode and masters it.

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Re: A state higher than Ultra Instinct?

Post by Questrider » Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:53 am

Honestly, I'd like to see Goku go back to his blonde hair SSJ look. Just add a black aura or whatever for UI (UISSJ?) or make his clothes change color based on aura. (Similar to how is outfit looks more "yellow" when he is in SSJ form, etc) Just something. Because all the different colored hair thing is just getting kinda ridiculous at this point. You could then add SSJ2, hell...even bring back the SSJ3 look (which we never saw enough of imo) and just go from there instead of a need to change the color of his hair each time.

SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3=blonde, gold aura
SSGSS= blue, blue aura
UI, UISSJ, etc=blonde hair, black aura, silver, whatever the hell they want.

Go beyond that? Ok, fine. Make it blue again, black aura or black clothes or something. Just no more colors.

No matter what, if DB Super is to continue, what a lot of fans crave is these crazy transformations so...they will happen. Regardless of many wanting to see a bit more creativity with the current forms we have. A new Kamehameha? Why the hell not.
A new technique? Why the hell not. But transformations?

There will always be someone stronger to fight and thus, more transformations. It's just part of the show for better or for worse.

One problem? Well, with Wis, Zeni, etc...there's at least an idea of what the ceiling is now. By not knowing, ignorance was kinda bliss.
And what I mean is- I worry about how much further they can go. As without some creative story telling, that ceiling is getting closer and closer.
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Re: A state higher than Ultra Instinct?

Post by Neon Z » Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:29 pm

I don't think Toriyama cares much about Ultra Instinct considering what we've seen. His lineart for the form was basically a copy of his art for Super Saiyan God and in the Broly movie it basically didn't exist. So, I fully expect we'll see forms introduced above it since he doesn't seem particularly attached to the form.

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Re: A state higher than Ultra Instinct?

Post by ZeroNeonix » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:24 am

I've been saying for a while that I expect Ultra Instinct will be stacked with other forms. If the story continues long enough, it's inevitable we'll get a higher form. But if they play their cards right, they can continue with Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken and Super Saiyan Blue Evolution being Goku and Vegeta's final forms that they can achieve under nornal circumstances, and save Ultra Instinct for a few rare occasions. But eventually, we will probably get an enemy Goku can't beat in Ultra Instinct, and then he'll have to transform into Super Saiyan Blue while in Ultra Instinct. Call it Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Ultra Instinct, or Super Saiyan Baby Blue (assuming the white and blue mix). Ultra Super Saiyan Blue?

While Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken was a TOEI invention, and is unlikely to make it into a Toriyama script, it's also possible the anime could have Goku's ultimate form. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Kaioken x10 Ultra Instinct.

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Re: A state higher than Ultra Instinct?

Post by Brettjr25 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:04 pm

whoa, one step at a time. Goku can't even use the form for longer than 15 seconds and can't transform to it at will. That setup along with the inuniverse hint at Vegeta won't ever achieve it makes me think that the pinnacle is UI. Besides even if it isn't named UI can always get stronger. During the fight with Jiren, Goku improved MUI significantly, they didn't call it UI2 or anything it just got stronger.

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Re: A state higher than Ultra Instinct?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:23 am

UI is the pinnacle of Martial Arts.
it's literally your body fighting on auto better than you fighting on manual control.
Can't top that.
Also, it draws one's full power while is at it, so much that a body not yet used to it actually gets damaged.


The only way to top UI is stacking it with external power sources, making the potential draw-able higher than natural.
And Saiyan transformations and techniques are NOT external... except Genkidama and Trunks' Genkidama Sword Form, I guess

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Re: A state higher than Ultra Instinct?

Post by Whis » Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:14 pm

The person above me explained this wonderfully.

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Re: A state higher than Ultra Instinct?

Post by KingKaash » Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:02 am

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:23 am
UI is the pinnacle of Martial Arts.
it's literally your body fighting on auto better than you fighting on manual control.
Can't top that.
Also, it draws one's full power while is at it, so much that a body not yet used to it actually gets damaged.


The only way to top UI is stacking it with external power sources, making the potential draw-able higher than natural.
And Saiyan transformations and techniques are NOT external... except Genkidama and Trunks' Genkidama Sword Form, I guess
I wholeheartedly agree with all of this. UI is the pinnacle of martial arts fighting. There logically shouldn't be anything beyond fighting on instinct.

My question and what I waiting to see from the manga if it happens, is what happens when Planet Eater Moro drains Goku if he's in UI? Is it even "drainable" or can it overcome someone who can siphon and use the energy/power of 2 SSJBs?
"Gohan, let it go. It is not a sin to fight for the right cause. There are those who words alone will not reach. Cell is such a being. I know how you feel Gohan, you are gentle, you do not like to hurt. I know because I too have learned these feelings. But it is because you cherish life that you must protect it. Please drop your restraints. Protect the life I once loved. You have the strength, my scanners sensed it..." -Android 16

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Re: A state higher than Ultra Instinct?

Post by louisascommie » Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:39 pm

have no one fully master ultra instict until Uub does it

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Re: A state higher than Ultra Instinct?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:34 pm

If they absolutely MUST introduce forms greater than Ultra Instinct, I'd hope that they build off of the precedent set by this angelic power rather than something entirely different.

For example, maybe upgraded versions of Ultra Instinct that make use of additional techniques to increase their potency, such as one of my ideas in previous posts in this thread where Goku created an Instantaneous Movement-based form of Ultra Instinct.

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Re: A state higher than Ultra Instinct?

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:41 pm

Super saiyan was "the invincible warrior who would climb all walls....."

SSG was "a realm that goku couldn't even fathom, something he could never achieve on his own"

The hype around UI isn't gonna stop toriyama from leaving it in the dust with ss multi color 3 years from when goku fights super god janemba or whatever koyama reboot he does

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