Do you think Super would have benefited by holding off on Super Saiyan Blue?

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Do you think Super would have benefited by holding off on Super Saiyan Blue?

Post by omegacwa » Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:27 am

I was thinking about this recently. Do you guys think that Super would have benefited by using SSG up until towards the end of the Goku Black arc?

So let's say everything happens the same except RoF and the universe 6 tournament the highest form Goku and Vegeta display is SSG. Then during the battle with Goku Black, Goku Black utilizes Rose which leads to Goku and Vegeta going back to Whis to try and understand the form and then through some harsh training or other method they learn Blue.

This was just a random idea I had and I think it would have made SSG feel more important since it was discarded so quickly in the series proper.

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Re: Do you think Super would have benefited by holding off on Super Saiyan Blue?

Post by sintzu » Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:14 am

I agree with this. I always thought Blue was introduced too fast and that SsjG should've been the main form for a bit longer. I do give them credit for not moving on from Blue as I thought by now we would've been on something else.
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Re: Do you think Super would have benefited by holding off on Super Saiyan Blue?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:38 am

Makes sense. It would also add much more depth and mystery, we could say, to Super Saiyan Rosé. But in order for it to work they would have to explain in the anime how Blue and Rosé interact with each other, which was explained by Future Zamasu but ONLY in the manga.

If anything, I would support your idea if only to avoid Super Saiyan Rage, which was never named or explained in the show... So yeah, I think your version with Super Saiyan Blue as the new transformation instead of Rage would have been better.

But then, I would have to wonder if Black could reach Rosé if Goku had never reached Blue? Like, I got the impression that Black unlocked Rosé only because the body had already tapped into a state beyond Super Saiyan God.
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Re: Do you think Super would have benefited by holding off on Super Saiyan Blue?

Post by omegacwa » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:04 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:38 am
Makes sense. It would also add much more depth and mystery, we could say, to Super Saiyan Rosé. But in order for it to work they would have to explain in the anime how Blue and Rosé interact with each other, which was explained by Future Zamasu but ONLY in the manga.

If anything, I would support your idea if only to avoid Super Saiyan Rage, which was never named or explained in the show... So yeah, I think your version with Super Saiyan Blue as the new transformation instead of Rage would have been better.

But then, I would have to wonder if Black could reach Rosé if Goku had never reached Blue? Like, I got the impression that Black unlocked Rosé only because the body had already tapped into a state beyond Super Saiyan God.
I think I would just explain it away like "Because Goku's body was possessed by the soul of a God, he was able to attain a truly amazing god ki infused form of Super Saiyan." It could also have been introduced after Zamasu and Black team up, so in theory it could have been attained by some kind of insane training.

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Re: Do you think Super would have benefited by holding off on Super Saiyan Blue?

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:51 pm

omegacwa wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:27 am
I was thinking about this recently. Do you guys think that Super would have benefited by using SSG up until towards the end of the Goku Black arc?
I think it would fit perfectly. Rosé would lead them to the path of Blue. I always thought they surpassed SSGod too soon.

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Re: Do you think Super would have benefited by holding off on Super Saiyan Blue?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:05 pm

Yes.
Blue instead of Kaiohken would have been so much better!


As alternative: Blue as a short-cut to the full power of God.
Like, they can turn God\use God Ki but they only have a fraction of the power shown by the Ritual in BoG.
They are even weaker than SS3 while on God Ki, because they need to re-learn to do pretty much everything with it, and it's hard.
So they cheat by going Super Saiyan with God Ki, which gives them a giant-ass boost, it's very stable but it's also extremely tiring.

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Re: Do you think Super would have benefited by holding off on Super Saiyan Blue?

Post by superfan2024 » Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:12 pm

Yes exactly, except that I think that Super Saiyan Blue should've been held for the Universe 6 Arc in my opinion. I honestly don't know why Toriyama/Toei introduced yet another new Saiyan form in RoF. Like come on, we just saw Battle of Gods, and now we're getting another form, except this time it's less interesting than Super Saiyan God and is the least interesting/intriguing Saiyan form in the visual and narrative department? I understand Tori/Toei wanted RoF to be big, but I think Freeza already getting a new form, along with Vegeta just getting God, along with the new Whis outfits would have been fine enough for new character design treats. Also, if Super Saiyan Blue didn't exist in RoF, there would literally be no difference in the power scale if Goku and Vegeta just used God. Literally nothing would be different. Goku and Vegeta would still use a Super Saiyan form beyond regular Super Saiyan and Freeza will still use his Golden form which would be the foil to Super Saiyan God.

Super Saiyan God and Blue should have been set up like this:
- Just as it was in Battle of Gods (specifically giving Goku a huge increase in power). Super Saiyan God would be something that is explained to take a huge drain on energy because of the amount of power it requires. The explanation towards Super Saiyan God being a draining form would help explain why Goku loses the form quickly in battle before reverting back to regular Super Saiyan while still keeping some Super Saiyan God power inside of him during the battle (which should've been a tiny tease to Blue but not literally stated).

- God replacing Blue in RoF (nothing would be different and the specific idea of God giving increased power against Golden Freezawould still be there)

- Goku first using Blue against Hit in the Champa tournament (here, Blue would be defined as something that features an efficient boost and mixture in both speed and power, not just power, allowing Goku to utilize his speed against Hit's timeskip instead of Goku using freaking Kaioken. Here, Blue would be an un-perfected technique that has taken a strain on Goku's body. Also, when Vegeta would fight Hit in the manga, everything will go the same route, because as I said above, Super Saiyan God should've been explained to be something that takes a huge drain in power, and originally in the manga, it was Super Saiyan Blue that took a whole drain in Vegeta's power which made him lose to Hit quicker.

- Vegeta will get Blue offscreen, then everything plays out the exact same in the Future Trunks arc's manga version with Goku revealing that he has mastered Blue and Vegeta (only having the un-mastered Blue) would still be one step behind Goku... again, as usual.

- Most things would play out similarly in the ToP with Vegeta having mastered Blue offscreen as well as getting Blue Evolution in the tournament and Goku getting Ultra Instinct as well in the tournament with Goku going through Omen first (which is a flawed UI because it doesn't focus on power) and then finally mastering Ultra Instinct (which balances both autonomous movement as well as power) because Goku realized that he's just doing the transition from Super Saiyan God to Super Saiyan Blue backwards because Super Saiyan God would've focused on power only while Super Saiyan Blue would focus on both speed and power. .

- - -

See how much better and organized that is?

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Re: Do you think Super would have benefited by holding off on Super Saiyan Blue?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:25 am

superfan2024 wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:12 pm
I honestly don't know why Toriyama/Toei introduced yet another new Saiyan form in RoF.
People didn't like SSGod. that's it.

So they reverted to the ever-popular Super Saiyan design, but recolored it to sell it as a SSG upgrade.
note how Blue even loses the trademark "slim" silhouette and pupil eyes of God! They actively wanted to move away from that design. Else they could have easily given Blue the slim body and the eyes of God+SS hair

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Re: Do you think Super would have benefited by holding off on Super Saiyan Blue?

Post by omegacwa » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:30 am

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:25 am
superfan2024 wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:12 pm
I honestly don't know why Toriyama/Toei introduced yet another new Saiyan form in RoF.
People didn't like SSGod. that's it.

So they reverted to the ever-popular Super Saiyan design, but recolored it to sell it as a SSG upgrade.
note how Blue even loses the trademark "slim" silhouette and pupil eyes of God! They actively wanted to move away from that design. Else they could have easily given Blue the slim body and the eyes of God+SS hair
Which is interesting considering the popularity of the form NOW. I mean people were really excited for it in the Super Broly movie.

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Re: Do you think Super would have benefited by holding off on Super Saiyan Blue?

Post by Alruneia » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:22 am

I agree that RF was a bit early, but the Zamasu arc is a bit too late considering that we then get Ultra Instinct the arc after that. In my opinion, if you need to move Super Saiyan Blue's introduction, the best place to move it would be to the Goku vs Hit fight in the U6-U7 tournament. In both the manga and the anime, circumstances make it so that Goku is about 10 times as strong as Vegeta (anime: Goku uses Kaioken x10; manga: Vegeta misused the SSB transformation). You could replace this with a situation where Vegeta only has SSG, and Goku then combines SSG+SS to introduce SSB (though it doesn't necessarily have to be 10x stronger). Afterwards we'd get a "why didn't I think of that" moment from Vegeta, and by the time the Zamasu arc begins, everything's back to normal.
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Re: Do you think Super would have benefited by holding off on Super Saiyan Blue?

Post by omegacwa » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:37 am

Alruneia wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:22 am
I agree that RF was a bit early, but the Zamasu arc is a bit too late considering that we then get Ultra Instinct the arc after that. In my opinion, if you need to move Super Saiyan Blue's introduction, the best place to move it would be to the Goku vs Hit fight in the U6-U7 tournament. In both the manga and the anime, circumstances make it so that Goku is about 10 times as strong as Vegeta (anime: Goku uses Kaioken x10; manga: Vegeta misused the SSB transformation). You could replace this with a situation where Vegeta only has SSG, and Goku then combines SSG+SS to introduce SSB (though it doesn't necessarily have to be 10x stronger). Afterwards we'd get a "why didn't I think of that" moment from Vegeta, and by the time the Zamasu arc begins, everything's back to normal.
I'd be ok with this scenario if the tournament had more dire circumstances and the fight vs. Hit actually had weight.

For example hit is beating Goku and he's on the verge of losing while in God. Then, similar to his original SSJ transformation he starts getting angry and his hair starts to change but he can't hold on to it. From off screen Vegeta comments that Goku should try to harness that feeling and push it to see what happens. Goku is about to be eliminated and he looks inside him self. In that instant his body is surrounded by a crystal like aura of SSB and then he transforms. Whis comments something like "Who would have thought that in God that he could push himself further and harness god ki in such a way!" Whis comments to Vegeta "I sense this same power in you Vegeta, perhaps another round of training will bring it out." Vegeta scoffs "Just like super saiyan god, I will attain this power with my own will. Anything Kakarot can do, I will do better."

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Re: Do you think Super would have benefited by holding off on Super Saiyan Blue?

Post by emperior » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:41 am

Honestly Blue should have never happened and they should have kept God as the strongest form until Ultra Instinct, with Vegeta at best getting Blue as his response to UI.

But if I had to absolutely keep Blue, I would introduce it in the U6 arc. I would explain how the 3 years spent by Goku and Vegeta in the room of time resulted in both mastering God Ki, then Goku would attain it against Hit by using God ki without going God and then going Super Saiyan on top of it.

Then Vegeta would be able to do the same trick by the time FT arc begins - there would be no Kaioken or mastered Blue as it would be the same as normal Super Saiyan but stronger.
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Re: Do you think Super would have benefited by holding off on Super Saiyan Blue?

Post by Jord » Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:02 pm

It would have benefited more bye being more unique instead of being just a different hair color. That was incredibly anticlimactic.

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Re: Do you think Super would have benefited by holding off on Super Saiyan Blue?

Post by omegacwa » Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:13 pm

Jord wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:02 pm
It would have benefited more bye being more unique instead of being just a different hair color. That was incredibly anticlimactic.
Even though I like Blue, I understand where you are coming from. The transformation itself is what made it different but the artists got lazy and didn't bother to keep it's uniqueness.

Yet again I point out that other than cell games Gohan, SSJ2 barely looks different from SSJ yet I never see people complain about that, it so not different that there have been arguments ad nauseum about if someone was SSJ1 or 2 in certain fights because the artists barely bothered to make any kind of distinction.

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Re: Do you think Super would have benefited by holding off on Super Saiyan Blue?

Post by sintzu » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:50 pm

omegacwa wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:13 pm
Again I point out that SSJ2 barely looks different from SSJ yet I never see people complain about that.
That's because of how it was introduced and used. Ssj2 is mainly known for being used by Cell Games Gohan and Majin Vegeta. Their transformations and fights became classics in the franchise. The Problem with Blue, unlike the above, is that there was no build up to it and the times it was used in weren't very impactful. 4 characters reached SsjB but non of them came close to the first time Gohan transformed into Ssj2. SsjB was used a lot, yet non of those times contain any moments as powerful as Gohan's final Kamehameha or Majin Vegeta's sacrifice.

Now take Black's Ssj Rose, it's basically Black's version of SsjB but the way it was introduced was so much more powerful than Blue's introduction by Goku and Vegeta in RF.
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Re: Do you think Super would have benefited by holding off on Super Saiyan Blue?

Post by emperior » Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:00 pm

sintzu wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:50 pm
omegacwa wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:13 pm
Again I point out that SSJ2 barely looks different from SSJ yet I never see people complain about that.
That's because of how it was introduced and used. Ssj2 is mainly known for being used by Cell Games Gohan and Majin Vegeta. Their transformations and fights became classics in the franchise. The Problem with Blue, unlike the above, is that there was no build up to it and the times it was used in weren't very impactful. 4 characters reached SsjB but non of them came close to the first time Gohan transformed into Ssj2. SsjB was used a lot, yet non of those times contain any moments as powerful as Gohan's final Kamehameha or Majin Vegeta's sacrifice.

Now take Black's Ssj Rose, it's basically Black's version of SsjB but the way it was introduced was so much more powerful than Blue's introduction by Goku and Vegeta in RF.
It also doesn’t help how Blue was introduced immediately after a 90 minutes movie introduced a new form, and it was again in a 90 minutes movie.
I get that RoF came out 2 years after BoG but getting 2 new forms in 180 minutes was way too much.
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Re: Do you think Super would have benefited by holding off on Super Saiyan Blue?

Post by Gokitalo » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:16 pm

As much as I enjoyed the SSB reveal in Resurrection of F (and even more so the reveal that Vegeta had also learned to do it), I do agree that it's a pity Super Saiyan God didn't really get much of a moment to shine outside of Battle of Gods. I definitely think Toriyama and co. could have played a bit more with the SSG form, e.g. Goku could have gained more muscle mass the more he worked on perfecting the form.

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Re: Do you think Super would have benefited by holding off on Super Saiyan Blue?

Post by Grimlock » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:00 pm

Then again, Super Saiyan God not having its "moment to shine" yet means there is a perfect spot for the form to have it in the original way: through the Saiyan who got it first.

Wouldn't hurt seeing someone else performing best as Super Saiyan God other than Goku.

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Re: Do you think Super would have benefited by holding off on Super Saiyan Blue?

Post by Jord » Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:00 am

omegacwa wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:13 pm
Jord wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:02 pm
It would have benefited more bye being more unique instead of being just a different hair color. That was incredibly anticlimactic.
Even though I like Blue, I understand where you are coming from. The transformation itself is what made it different but the artists got lazy and didn't bother to keep it's uniqueness.

Yet again I point out that other than cell games Gohan, SSJ2 barely looks different from SSJ yet I never see people complain about that, it so not different that there have been arguments ad nauseum about if someone was SSJ1 or 2 in certain fights because the artists barely bothered to make any kind of distinction.
Oh but I agree with you. SSJ2 only added something with Gohan. When Goku and Vegeta got theirs it was basically the new standard and nothing special. Of course, story wise they HAD to give Goku and Vegeta SSJ2 because otherwise they'd be super weak compared to Gohan.

SSJ3 looked way more special and powerful. (even though it didn't have as much impact on the story as the other forms had) and SSJ4 also had a unique and defining look. When I look at those and then look at Super's forms, which are basically recolourings, I am less impressed.

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Re: Do you think Super would have benefited by holding off on Super Saiyan Blue?

Post by omegacwa » Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:50 am

Jord wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:00 am
omegacwa wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:13 pm
Jord wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:02 pm
It would have benefited more bye being more unique instead of being just a different hair color. That was incredibly anticlimactic.
Even though I like Blue, I understand where you are coming from. The transformation itself is what made it different but the artists got lazy and didn't bother to keep it's uniqueness.

Yet again I point out that other than cell games Gohan, SSJ2 barely looks different from SSJ yet I never see people complain about that, it so not different that there have been arguments ad nauseum about if someone was SSJ1 or 2 in certain fights because the artists barely bothered to make any kind of distinction.
Oh but I agree with you. SSJ2 only added something with Gohan. When Goku and Vegeta got theirs it was basically the new standard and nothing special. Of course, story wise they HAD to give Goku and Vegeta SSJ2 because otherwise they'd be super weak compared to Gohan.

SSJ3 looked way more special and powerful. (even though it didn't have as much impact on the story as the other forms had) and SSJ4 also had a unique and defining look. When I look at those and then look at Super's forms, which are basically recolourings, I am less impressed.
I personally think the whole "Freeza blows up the earth, Whis Rewinds time, Goku Kills Freeza" thing really undermined SSB. Had the ending been, what I read was Toryiama's original intention, Vegeta defeating Freeza, I think it would have had a much bigger impact.

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