Do you think Super would have benefited by holding off on Super Saiyan Blue?

[Jord]

Even though I like Blue, I understand where you are coming from. The transformation itself is what made it different but the artists got lazy and didn't bother to keep it's uniqueness.

Yet again I point out that other than cell games Gohan, SSJ2 barely looks different from SSJ yet I never see people complain about that, it so not different that there have been arguments ad nauseum about if someone was SSJ1 or 2 in certain fights because the artists barely bothered to make any kind of distinction.

Oh but I agree with you. SSJ2 only added something with Gohan. When Goku and Vegeta got theirs it was basically the new standard and nothing special. Of course, story wise they HAD to give Goku and Vegeta SSJ2 because otherwise they'd be super weak compared to Gohan.

SSJ3 looked way more special and powerful. (even though it didn't have as much impact on the story as the other forms had) and SSJ4 also had a unique and defining look. When I look at those and then look at Super's forms, which are basically recolourings, I am less impressed.

I personally think the whole "Freeza blows up the earth, Whis Rewinds time, Goku Kills Freeza" thing really undermined SSB. Had the ending been, what I read was Toryiama's original intention, Vegeta defeating Freeza, I think it would have had a much bigger impact.

I agree. That is the single biggest asspull in all of DragonBall. Let Vegeta just beat the dude. Or let Freeza win and let the remaining crew search for a way to get Goku/Vegeta etc back. Buu would have survived the earth exploding and if he didn't we still would have Kaio or could have brought Tarble back. The ending they chose however takes all the air out of the fight and provides a get out of jail card for coming adventures.

[Block88]

Yes I would save the form at least until the u6 arc to make it feel like a powerful transformation.
Introducing the form in ROF and the way it was used Latter on screwed up the form credibility.

[Koitsukai]

Absolutely, it would have given SS God the chance to be a thing on it's own, have the spotlight it only got for 30 minutes in BoG (and lost). If they held Blue until Hit (maybe SSGod Kaioken? perfecting kaio's technique with the help of god ki) or to defeat Black Rose, maybe two SSBlue give Merged Zamasu a fight. It would've been a different thing to see SSBlue get trashed by a non chalant Jiren than it actually was. Or SS Broly making two SS blue run for the hills.
I would've been entertained if RoF had some sort of fight between Final Form Freeza and the new levels of SS Goku unlock over the years. Maybe SS3 Goku being above FF Freeza and thinking it's a done deal to see the new Golden Form, or SS3 being surpassed by FF Freeza and needing SSGod and then Golden Freeza surprisingly matching him. Vegeta could display the SS God form instead of jumping right to Blue.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I honestly don't know why Toriyama/Toei introduced yet another new Saiyan form in RoF.

People didn't like SSGod. that's it.

So they reverted to the ever-popular Super Saiyan design, but recolored it to sell it as a SSG upgrade.
note how Blue even loses the trademark "slim" silhouette and pupil eyes of God! They actively wanted to move away from that design. Else they could have easily given Blue the slim body and the eyes of God+SS hair

Toriyama's vision for the SSB also made the user thin and the hair style is different, just look at his designs for RoF. The problem is that most media never portray the transformation as it should be, and sometimes the form is poorly drawn (getting the impression of just being a recolor)

Again I point out that SSJ2 barely looks different from SSJ yet I never see people complain about that.

That's because of how it was introduced and used. Ssj2 is mainly known for being used by Cell Games Gohan and Majin Vegeta. Their transformations and fights became classics in the franchise. The Problem with Blue, unlike the above, is that there was no build up to it and the times it was used in weren't very impactful. 4 characters reached SsjB but non of them came close to the first time Gohan transformed into Ssj2. SsjB was used a lot, yet non of those times contain any moments as powerful as Gohan's final Kamehameha or Majin Vegeta's sacrifice.

Now take Black's Ssj Rose, it's basically Black's version of SsjB but the way it was introduced was so much more powerful than Blue's introduction by Goku and Vegeta in RF.

In both anime and manga, SSB has had several demonstration moments of being a transformation with a totally different level from others and with grandiose appearances, but people still complain that it is a recolor because they just do not like the transformation and the color change in DBS, is a criticism only of design and not of their weight in the story. Which does not make sense because most of the transformations in the series change very little the user.

And many of these criticisms are from people who praise the SSJ4 who is not a creation of Toriyama

[Lord Beerus]

Super Saiyan Blue was introduced far too early. The introduction of Super Saiyan God should have lead to the form itself being expanded upon instead of being the sacrificial lamp to another God power for two characters who didn't really need it. That form should have been introduced either during the U6/U7 Tournament or in another arc prior to the Future Trunks arc.

[Questrider]

I think as someone pointed out earlier, fans weren't "super" (forgive the pun) excited about the actual look of Super Saiyan God.

Personally...um, I don't really care much for it either. It's an ugly reddish maroon like color. That's my personal opinion, which is fine. The concept/idea itself was great.

Now take SSB. Well, shit. I think most fans love it. Why? Well, because the original Super Saiyan form is just so iconic. And blue...well...pretty much looks just like it. And...the blue actually looks pretty damn cool.

So...fast forward, I think Blue was meant to make people basically forget about the SSG...which also effectively downplays how monstrous the form really was.

To be fair, one of Super's biggest downfalls right now is how these forms aren't really getting a chance to shine.

When Goku fought Beerus, it was this huge deal. Goku really, really had to push himself there. And then you have all these other cats just going toe to toe with Goku or Vegeta in BLUE form (so, ok, HIGHER than God form), and they make it seem like no big deal.

Really? That's an even bigger problem.

These forms, appearances aside, are supposed to be MASSIVE jumps. But at much as I love Super, I'm not feeling that.

So yeah, these forms have all rolled out too fast. I always felt that way about Super Saiyan 3 too. That was over and done with like the minute it began.

Also, for as great as UI looks, that won't be the pinnacle...even though it very well should be. It's Goku's NORMAL hair with silver tints. That just aint gonna fly for a final form. Fans want that Super Saiyan hair.

[Hugo Boss]

Yeah, I think SSBlue was intended to replace SSGod. But when they decided to bring back the old forms, my opinion on the form’s importance was messed up. Not only because it didn’t feel stronger than SSGod, but because every enemy that came after Battle of Gods doesn’t seem as formidable as Beerus, besides Jiren and Broli, of course. As far as I can tell, Ultra Instinct is the first Goku’s form that came after Battle of Gods that truly impressed me. If only they made something like this..

Beerus Arc - SSGod
Freeza Arc - 2 SSGods
Champa Arc - SSGod with kaioken
Zamas Arc - SSBlue
Jiren Arc - Ultra Instinct

[SupremeKai25]

I was thinking, maybe a good time to introduce Super Saiyan Blue would have been during this scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix6MMxU88fs

The anger that Goku felt after Zamasu gloated about killing his family could have pushed him to break the limits of Super Saiyan God and reach an even higher level of power. Also, after having already clashed with Rosé Black, he could have obtained some of his knowledge on reaching a higher level than SSG.

This scene would work very well along with a new transformation, and I'm surprised that in the end all that came from it was just a mere power-up that ended in two minutes. We first have Zamasu pushing Goku to reach a new level of power, then we have Goku powering up a lot and his red aura could change into a new blue aura, leading up to the fight where Goku shows his new power and overpowers Black and Zamasu.

[Jord]

In part yes.

The other part is that it was just a hair dye....looking weaker than SSJ. Less majestic.
They should have been way more creative. A powerful new form should look ....more powerful.

[Whis]

Yes I would save the form at least until the u6 arc to make it feel like a powerful transformation.
Introducing the form in ROF and the way it was used Latter on screwed up the form credibility.

I agree. I think it would be pretty neat to have saiyan beyond god form as the dealbreaker in rof since you can tap into the ssj forms but still below ssg for increasing the tension in the arc. The plot is same because Goku and Vegeta still outsmart Frieza when he's fatigued from his new gold form.

[GodVegetto91]

They should have never introduced SSJ Blue and go straight to Ultra Instinct after SSJ God. Well, not immediately ofcourse, as the OP of this thread states. They could have used SSJ God as the main form for Goku and Vegeta all the way up until the ending stages of the ToP, where Goku achieves Completed Ultra Instinct.

2 true God Forms.

No in betweeners like SSJ Blue.

[Mnich]

I have to agree that it would be better to introduce SSJ Blue in the Zamasu Arc.
SSJ God could have been used instead of Blue in the F' arc (and Champa's tourney). I mean, they used God in the BoG and just forgot about it till the Universe Survival arc. That's kinda strange.

[Pokesamus217]

In part yes.

The other part is that it was just a hair dye....looking weaker than SSJ. Less majestic.
They should have been way more creative. A powerful new form should look ....more powerful.

I mean, the form wasn’t meant to look powerful.

[Jord]

That is true fo 'regular SSJG but not exactly for SSJGSSJ. It felt a bit like a palette swap, an alternate costume.
That being said, the SSJG shade of red combined with the regular SSJ hair style would look awesome.

[Hugo Boss]

I was thinking, maybe a good time to introduce Super Saiyan Blue would have been during this scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix6MMxU88fs

The anger that Goku felt after Zamasu gloated about killing his family could have pushed him to break the limits of Super Saiyan God and reach an even higher level of power. Also, after having already clashed with Rosé Black, he could have obtained some of his knowledge on reaching a higher level than SSG.

This scene would work very well along with a new transformation, and I'm surprised that in the end all that came from it was just a mere power-up that ended in two minutes. We first have Zamasu pushing Goku to reach a new level of power, then we have Goku powering up a lot and his red aura could change into a new blue aura, leading up to the fight where Goku shows his new power and overpowers Black and Zamasu.

Good point. Actually, if you put SSGod in every instance before that in which SSBlue was used, it wouldn’t change anything in the story. It would fit much better. Golden Freeza would be stronger than SSGod and equal to SSBlue in the Top Arc. Hit would be about as powerful as SSGod and improve to rival SSBlue in his rematch against Goku. Black would be stronger than SSGod in his SSRosé form and be surpassed by SSBlue. That way, Vegeta’s speech about the Saiyan cells would make much more sense, since Black wouldn’t be able to draw SSBlue’s full strength, only after he fuses with Zamas. Jiren would make much more impact after trashing SSBlue and tie with Ultra Instinct Sign.

Even if you do all that, SSBlue would be introduced at about Episode 60 or so. This form would still have more than half of the show to appear. It has appeared in almost 100 episodes so far.

[SupremeKai25]

I was thinking, maybe a good time to introduce Super Saiyan Blue would have been during this scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix6MMxU88fs

The anger that Goku felt after Zamasu gloated about killing his family could have pushed him to break the limits of Super Saiyan God and reach an even higher level of power. Also, after having already clashed with Rosé Black, he could have obtained some of his knowledge on reaching a higher level than SSG.

This scene would work very well along with a new transformation, and I'm surprised that in the end all that came from it was just a mere power-up that ended in two minutes. We first have Zamasu pushing Goku to reach a new level of power, then we have Goku powering up a lot and his red aura could change into a new blue aura, leading up to the fight where Goku shows his new power and overpowers Black and Zamasu.

Good point. Actually, if you put SSGod in every instance before that in which SSBlue was used, it wouldn’t change anything in the story. It would fit much better. Golden Freeza would be stronger than SSGod and equal to SSBlue in the Top Arc. Hit would be about as powerful as SSGod and improve to rival SSBlue in his rematch against Goku. Black would be stronger than SSGod in his SSRosé form and be surpassed by SSBlue. That way, Vegeta’s speech about the Saiyan cells would make much more sense, since Black wouldn’t be able to draw SSBlue’s full strength, only after he fuses with Zamas. Jiren would make much more impact after trashing SSBlue and tie with Ultra Instinct Sign.

Even if you do all that, SSBlue would be introduced at about Episode 60 or so. This form would still have more than half of the show to appear. It has appeared in almost 100 episodes so far.

That way they could also better justify the power-up that Black got in ep.64. Super Saiyan Rosé could have just been his SS God form. Then when he powered-up through his anger and created that scythe, they could just say that he basically tapped into a level equal to SS Blue. In retrospect, the Future Trunks arc really seemed like the best time to introduce Super Saiyan Blue.

[infermon]

Honestly Blue should have never happened and they should have kept God as the strongest form until Ultra Instinct.

Can't second this enough.

Every single story beat that involves Blue could be substituted for God with practically zero issue. Its only function in its debut was to establish Goku and Vegeta's growth under Whis, but introducing a new form to do so was utterly pointless; having the latter attain God for the first time and the former reattain it after losing it would've done that job perfectly fine. All it's done since is add another entry to the already far too long list of transformations for Goku to cycle through when in a pinch. Out of universe it really only exists for merchandising reasons and as the face of the modern iteration of the franchise, it's... an ugly one. God is so much more aesthetically pleasing.

[Desassina]

You should never hold off doing anything when you are at your most fluid and exciting stage. Once your head is in a deep state of warmth and darkness, cooling it off and coming into the light might just kill the offsprings of your hard work, and thus the creation shall never take place.

Dragon Ball Z Resurrection of F proved that the series had been rubbing off of its new forms so nothing else should be expected. That Mr. Toriyama introduced Super Saiyan Blue early is nothing compared to it overstaying its welcome. It was a movie and not a series after all.

[Spencer_23]

Without a doubt imo. But honestly at this point the transformations should sorta fade away. UI should be the peak imo. Whatever they decide they need to get to end of Z and move forward from there.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Honestly Blue should have never happened and they should have kept God as the strongest form until Ultra Instinct.

Can't second this enough.

Every single story beat that involves Blue could be substituted for God with practically zero issue. Its only function in its debut was to establish Goku and Vegeta's growth under Whis, but introducing a new form to do so was utterly pointless; having the latter attain God for the first time and the former reattain it after losing it would've done that job perfectly fine. All it's done since is add another entry to the already far too long list of transformations for Goku to cycle through when in a pinch. Out of universe it really only exists for merchandising reasons and as the face of the modern iteration of the franchise, it's... an ugly one. God is so much more aesthetically pleasing.

Super Saiyan God in terms of popularity has never held up so well. And the form was heavily criticized when it appeared on BoG.

Anyway, no matter how much some people dislike Blue, it's a transformation that has remained the strongest and has been relevant for several arcs unlike God (which for some reason only started to be praised after the introduction of Blue) and practically every other Saiyan transformation and people usually never give credit for it (SSB hasn't remained the main form for so long for nothing)