Base Saiyajins in the Super manga

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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ahill1
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Base Saiyajins in the Super manga

Post by ahill1 » Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:38 pm

What are your guys' estimations for the base Saiyajins in the Super, Toyotaro's manga? Current base Saiyajins. I think this is one topic that a lot of people don't see eye to eye on.

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Re: Base Saiyajins in the Super manga

Post by Thani » Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:01 pm

Talking strictly about Goku and Vegeta here.

Well, apparently, stronger than the Kaioshins, which is super weird, but understandable, considering how much they trained with Whis. However, an improved SSj2 Trunks could put pressure on Goku as a SSj3, which is ridiculous unless they're equal at base level, which they shouldn't be since training with an Angel should earn more gains than just barely surviving against Black.

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Re: Base Saiyajins in the Super manga

Post by ankokudaishogun » Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:50 pm

Whis' training is only about "automatic reflex" and "ki control"(read: UI preparatory training)

There is reason to believe they got infinitely stronger in Base. Also i don't remember where it was stated they were stronger than Shin?

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Re: Base Saiyajins in the Super manga

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:48 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:50 pm
Whis' training is only about "automatic reflex" and "ki control"(read: UI preparatory training)

There is reason to believe they got infinitely stronger in Base. Also i don't remember where it was stated they were stronger than Shin?
Ramushi's shout at the Exhibition Tournament caused all the Kaioshins to faint, which did not happen with base Goku (though he was paralyzed)

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Re: Base Saiyajins in the Super manga

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:41 pm

It didn’t happen with Goku, because he is close to the level of Gods of Destruction, not because his normal form is stronger than Kaioshin. Goku was as much affected as the other Gods of Destruction, while the Angels weren’t affected.

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Re: Base Saiyajins in the Super manga

Post by ankokudaishogun » Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:30 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:41 pm
It didn’t happen with Goku, because he is close to the level of Gods of Destruction, not because his normal form is stronger than Kaioshin.
that would imply Goku IN BASE was near to a GoD, or, at least, greater than a Kaioshin

But what was the for being affected by Ramush's shout? Physical might? base Ki-level? Mental fortitude?

That said, Shin(and it's reasonably to think the other Kaioshins) is higher than Mecha Freeza but lower than Perfect Cell, if we count him being wary of Dabra(who is about Perfect Cell level) but utterly dismissive of Freeza and Piccolo(fused with Kami) thinking he had no chance with him.
Also: Zamasu, who is stated being quite strong(implied: for a Kaioshin) was about SS2-level.

So we can infer that Base Goku&Vegeta being at least about Z-era SS2.
In the manga(anime is a utterly different thing).
IF the reason some didn't faint was their base-level Ki.
[it's even coherent with GT, where base Goku was Z-era SS3 level.]

There is no reason to believe Future trunks, who never stopped training, would reach a similar level in the same amount of time. the only difference is that where Goku&Vegeta switched to train for God Ki, he spent training to improve SS2, getting a powered-up version rivalling the Ki-inefficient SS3 Goku developed while dead.

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Re: Base Saiyajins in the Super manga

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:17 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:30 am
that would imply Goku IN BASE was near to a GoD, or, at least, greater than a Kaioshin
Goku didn’t pass out, because he could be a God of Destruction candidate at that level. This has nothing to do with his normal form.

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Re: Base Saiyajins in the Super manga

Post by ahill1 » Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:07 am

Might be worth noting that in the manga sequence of the Rebirth of Freeza arc (granted that it was done so more as a promotional for the to be movie, but still don't see a reason not to use it) Gohan stated that he's no match for Freeza based on the chi the tyrant was giving off. Freeza was on his first form and while he could be calculating a hypothetical final form Freeza, the movie lends credence to first form Freeza at least being able to easily one shot Gohan. Since Goku in the manga's chapters promo could go toe to toe (and even outclass iirc) Freeza while this latter was on his final form, he's obviously way stronger than his Boo saga counterpart, I'd say.

Even taking these chapters outta the picture, we have SSJB Vegeta who was less than 10% of his power being in the same vicinity as Hit as this latter's time skip could work on him, while Goku in SSJ could already give this same Hit some problems, only being at a disadvantage due to this latter's ability. So if Goku SSJ is on the same vicinity as less than 10% Blue Vegeta (who wasn't that much behind 10% as otherwise it'd have been made note of) and the SSJG transformation is high enough for Goku to state a whole new world has opened to him (implying it's above any conceivable level for him, i.e Vegetto, as he has experienced and been apart of such), the lower states of the Saiyajins as SSJ are quite powerful, likely having gained power post the training with Whis, shrinking down the gap the God states previously had over such states.

I've SSJ Goku and Vegeta in the U6 rivaling or surpassing Vegetto SSJ from Z :lol:

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Re: Base Saiyajins in the Super manga

Post by Super Murjin » Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:48 pm

In Revival of F Goku and Vegeta were learning to keep their ki from leaking, where also advised of the auto dodge/ultra instinct technique and were also learning how to utilize their new found god ki.

The base forms we see fighting against Whis would not have been a base form that would have rivaled let's say final form Freeza on Namek.
If that was the case, it would not have been that all impressive that Whis was throwing them around like rag dolls. They would have had a huge boost in power using the power of Super Saiyan God in their base. Two saiyans with power stronger than Super Saiyan 3 and losing to 1 individual is defs a huge feat.

In their base form they were learning to tap into the power of a Super Saiyan God. They still couldn't fully access the red haired form at will yet.
So the base form with the power of Super Saiyan God would have been their strongest state above the 3 super saiyan forms. Once they figured out how to maintain that godly power and then transform into super saiyan, then they had access to the new form Super Saiyan Blue.
Think about it, they were using regular ki all their lives and then this new concept of god ki came along. Both Vegeta and Goku trained to learn how to activate it and use it. Later on there was no need to use the power of Super Saiyan God anymore in their base as by the time they were participating in the Universe 6 vs Universe 7 tournament they could transform and fully use god ki in the Super Saiyan God form. So the fabled "saiyan beyond god" state kinda became obsolete. The only other time we saw this form/state was when Goku Black was terrorizing Future Trunks all those years in the distant future in his powered up base form.

Goku and Vegeta's forms breakdown:

Base Form: should be around a level of Freeza's final form on Namek, it may have gotten stronger throughout the years, but likely not by much.

Super Saiyan Form: would roughly be around the level of Perfect Cell. The form was mastered during the Cell Games. Goku Super Saiyan during the Namek Arc compared to the Cell Games is night and day. He powered up and improved Super Saiyan by a lot, but he would have hit his limit in that form during the battle with Perfect Cell. Same would have been with Vegeta and most other Super Saiyan users.

Super Saiyan 2 Form: Was the next big form to use during the final moments of the Cell Games and into the early Majin Buu Arc. We never really saw Goku and Vegeta train and mention anything about grades within the form. It's possible that's what we saw with Future Trunks when his Super Saiyan 2 form was almost on par with Goku's Super Saiyan 3 form. Seems to be that when Goku attained Super Saiyan 2, he pushed the concept of a super saiyan form stacked on top of a super saiyan form to the next level. There probably was a lot of improvement and power that Goku and the others could have done with Super Saiyan 2 but newer forms came up which also made this form obsolete as well.

Super Saiyan 3 Form: is Super Saiyan stacked on Super Saiyan stacked on Super Saiyan, hence why it is so straining. It's like getting angry, and then getting angier on top of that, and then getting even angier onto of the first two forms of being angry. Makes sense why there is such a crazy energy drain in this form. Also makes sense why Goku hasn't been able to fully master it or improve it. Vegeta has no interest in learning it due to it's negative side effects. So hypothetically there could be a Super Saiyan 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8, but the user most likely would mutate so much and zap their energy so fast that there would be no point going this route. Super Sayain 3's level of power would be in the range of Mr. Buu and Kid buu. The only thing that would have improved for Goku in this form is maybe reducing the energy drain by a bit.

Super Saiyan God Form: is way more powerful than the golden forms as it was the only one out of Goku's 4 forms at the time to be able to fight toe to toe with Beerus. Not even a fusion (Vegito) would have had a chance against Beerus. So one can only imagine how much more powerful Super Saiyan God Goku was over Vegito Super Saiyan from end of the Majin Buu arc. Through training this form was able to be accessed at will and the temporary power of Super Saiyan God/Saiyan Beyond God, God-like state was not necessary any more. Goku and Vegeta at this level would have been more powerful than all of the Z opponents and most of the Super opponents as well except for Beerus, the angels, the other gods of destruction, Jiren, Broly Wrathful forms and up, Goku Black Super Saiyan Rose, Merged Zamasu, Golden Freeza, Hit (manga version), Toppo (god like state), and possibly a few more.

Super Saiyan Blue Form: next level up from God form. On par with Goku Black Super Saiyan Rose. Has the ability to improve, but not to the point where they would surpass Jiren or Broly Super Saiyan Full Power. Remember this form is a combination of regular Super Saiyan which already hit it's limits way back in the Cell saga, plus Super Saiyan God, which may be the case where it can't improve much either. Unless the two forms combined provides extra power to be reached through more training and more limiting pushing.

Ultra Instinct: A form any being can reach, unlike the super saiyan forms. This form/technique/state is very powerful, more so when Goku has silver/white hair. In his Omen state hard to tell on which level he is on, but his auto dodge is a huge advantage over his opponents as he can avoid physical damage and wear out the opposing fighter. The level of power would be in the Beerus/Jiren/Broly Super Saiyan Full Power range with the possibility to continue to grow even beyond.

Having Goku and Vegeta's base forms going past their golden forms without the power of super saiyan god power-up makes little to no sense and causes a lot of confusion in the power scaling. I do believe there are some plot holes like Vegeta beating up Pui Pui in his base, moments like that. Although some head cannon here, maybe Vegeta used the power of Super Saiyan in his base against Pui Pui very briefly in order to defeat him.

Anyways that's my very long rant on the subject. Thanks

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Re: Base Saiyajins in the Super manga

Post by TobyS » Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:19 am

People read waaay to much in to Shin falling at Rumooshs elephant noise.

Maybe they have better hearing/senses like Piccolo does (see non canon whistling in lord slug hurting Piccolo just as an example)

Maybe he happened to be less braced or balanced at the time, either randomly or because Goku has better fighting instincts and predicted the attack.

But most likely because Tori/Toyo thought it'd be funny for the weaker god there to pass out. He's generally the butt of jokes when around Beerus.

Edit: so to answer the question, other than a bit of plothole around Vegeta versus black with the scaling being weird.... It's generally obvious to me that god absorption in base was retconned out.

(This removes the need for U6 saiyans and future trunks, to be at least BoG god tier for no reason)

Base Goku versus Freeza in RoF manga is either “canon discontinuity” or never was canon to the official manga. It makes sense what with never collecting it in any edition.

Unlike the anime I don't think we have the other non god dragon team fight the same guys, Piccolo fights Frost but he's explicitly wounded by Goku so that doesn't help us.

Gohan is in the ballpark level of Freeza and the SSBlues by ToP but that just means he got stronger, it doesn't tell us much about Base saiyans versus other people.

Trunks has had no special whis training yet he's still comparible to Goku, his SS2 being SS3 level is easily explainable by hybrids just being that Mich stronger, see how much Ultimate Gohan was to SS3 Goku in the Buu saga.

All the jumps are due to blue, mastering blue and going beyond blue... I don't think bases have increased much since Buu tbh.
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Re: Base Saiyajins in the Super manga

Post by Hulk10 » Tue Dec 24, 2019 5:17 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:50 pm
Whis' training is only about "automatic reflex" and "ki control"(read: UI preparatory training)

There is reason to believe they got infinitely stronger in Base. Also i don't remember where it was stated they were stronger than Shin?
Yeah regardless of medium Saiyans have no limits.
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Re: Base Saiyajins in the Super manga

Post by emperior » Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:03 am

Trunks was compared to Cell Games Gohan, on the same form. So 2x Super Perfect Cell, and SS2 Buu arc levels. Meaning that since Buu arc, Goku and Vegeta probably haven’t improved too much aside from their God forms.
But it’s possible that their base states are now closer to their SS stages, so that multipliers are lower.
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Re: Base Saiyajins in the Super manga

Post by GodVegetto91 » Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:47 am

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:50 pm
Whis' training is only about "automatic reflex" and "ki control"(read: UI preparatory training)

There is reason to believe they got infinitely stronger in Base. Also i don't remember where it was stated they were stronger than Shin?
Correct. These are the 2 main categories of his training. His version of ki control is simply putting your aura inside your body, not allowing it to leak out, to prevent your opponent from sensing your energy and attacks. And even when they raised their energy inside their bodies and fist clashed, SSJ Blue’s Ki appeared for a moment! (Godly ki!)

Though the Yardratians really take it to the next level with their spirit control training. Which is definitely the highest level of ki control in existence. And since Vegeta is most likely going to use it to become immune to Moro’s energy stealing ability, he will be able to get true God Ki (which is locking your energy away to the deepest level of your body).

This is basically Whis’ ki control but than on STEROIDS.
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Re: Base Saiyajins in the Super manga

Post by ankokudaishogun » Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:47 pm

Except it's not?

From what we've been told, Spirit Control focuses on the QUALITY/balance of the Ki not (yet) how to use it.

You might want to remember Goku already learned it years ago...

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