Proof that SSJ God makes Goku an actual deity, as opposed to SSJ Blue, which is just a mortal with Godly ki

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Proof that SSJ God makes Goku an actual deity, as opposed to SSJ Blue, which is just a mortal with Godly ki

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:21 am

This is the translation by Herms.
Context: After Goku has become Super Saiyan God
Gohan: "I can't sense dad's ki at all."
Whis: "That's fine. After all, the ki a god emits cannot be sensed by ordinary humans."
Gohan: "Then dad really is a..."
Whis: "Yes, Super Saiyan God. I don't know whether he's the same as Beerus-sama or the Kaioshins, but at the very least he's become as much of a god as they are."

Significance: Re-re-reinforcing the idea that non-gods can’t sense a god’s ki. Whis’ final statement is also open to interpretation. He doesn’t know if SSG Goku is “the same” (同じ) as Beerus or the Kaioshins, but seems sure that Goku has at least become 同等の神/doutou no kami, literally the “same level” of god, less literally an equivalent god, equivalently a god, the same caliber of god, etc. Whether or not this means Goku actually ranks as high as Kaioshin or Beerus in DB’s somewhat complex god hierarchy, I don’t know. Overall I think it probably just means Goku is definitely a god, as much as Beerus and the Kaioshins, but that he’s not necessarily the same type of god. If nothing else, SSG Goku doesn’t seem to have a job or position maintaining the balance of the universe and all that jazz, the way the Kaioshins/Beerus do, so the idea that he has an official rank in that hierarchy seems odd, until/unless we get further.
Also note that in the later portions of Super, Goku and Vegeta are specifically refered to as mortals by the likes of Goku Black, Zamasu, Shin, Elder Kaioshin, Beerus, Whis, and all the other gods.

SSJ God does something more unique to the user than just giving him Godly Ki. It requiers a ritual to achieve it. It gives the user a slimmer body tone, darker skin color, taller height, fully formed eyes, it makes the user even more youtful and younger looking. Plus it gives them the ability to heal themselves. Aswell as several other techniques as seen in the Broly movie.

Point is, SSJ God really IS a God Form. As opposed to SSJ Blue, which does none of these things to Goku, other than giving him God ki and powering up his ki strength. It’s just Super Saiyan 1 with God ki, and nothing more.
“The fool looks to God outside him. The wise understands that God is within him.”

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Re: Proof that SSJ God makes Goku an actual deity, as opposed to SSJ Blue, which is just a mortal with Godly ki

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:00 pm

This is just an inconsistency. SSGod doesn’t warrant a deity position for Goku or something like that. It’s just a mortal using God ki, which may have caused some confusion. Super Saiyan Blue is just a powered-up version of Super Saiyan God.

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Re: Proof that SSJ God makes Goku an actual deity, as opposed to SSJ Blue, which is just a mortal with Godly ki

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:41 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:00 pm
This is just an inconsistency. SSGod doesn’t warrant a deity position for Goku or something like that. It’s just a mortal using God ki, which may have caused some confusion. Super Saiyan Blue is just a powered-up version of Super Saiyan God.
Did you even read my post and all the evidence i’ve provided^?
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Re: Proof that SSJ God makes Goku an actual deity, as opposed to SSJ Blue, which is just a mortal with Godly ki

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:00 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:41 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:00 pm
This is just an inconsistency. SSGod doesn’t warrant a deity position for Goku or something like that. It’s just a mortal using God ki, which may have caused some confusion. Super Saiyan Blue is just a powered-up version of Super Saiyan God.
Did you even read my post and all the evidence i’ve provided^?
You have provided no evidence.

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Re: Proof that SSJ God makes Goku an actual deity, as opposed to SSJ Blue, which is just a mortal with Godly ki

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:23 pm

Except that exactly the same thing happens in the RoF arc. Goku turns into SSB, so the Z-Fighters stop feeling his Ki and Kuririn even says he turned into SSG because of that (until they eventually realized his hair was blue and so it was a higher leve than SSG itself).


Goku and Vegeta become gods using both transformations, but they are essentially human and have no deity position so Zamasu calls them humans. So no, this theory that only SSG is a divine form doesn't make sense

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Re: Proof that SSJ God makes Goku an actual deity, as opposed to SSJ Blue, which is just a mortal with Godly ki

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:25 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:00 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:41 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:00 pm
This is just an inconsistency. SSGod doesn’t warrant a deity position for Goku or something like that. It’s just a mortal using God ki, which may have caused some confusion. Super Saiyan Blue is just a powered-up version of Super Saiyan God.
Did you even read my post and all the evidence i’ve provided^?
You have provided no evidence.
I did. Stop lying. I literally posted the quote by Whis. It is you, who is being unreasonable here.
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Re: Proof that SSJ God makes Goku an actual deity, as opposed to SSJ Blue, which is just a mortal with Godly ki

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:09 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:25 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:00 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:41 pm
Did you even read my post and all the evidence i’ve provided^?
You have provided no evidence.
I did. Stop lying. I literally posted the quote by Whis. It is you, who is being unreasonable here.
Herms made very clear that his statement is open to interpretation and I don’t see where he says Super Saiyan Blue is any different from Super Saiyan God in that aspect. There is obviously a very weird conclusion in your original post.

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Re: Proof that SSJ God makes Goku an actual deity, as opposed to SSJ Blue, which is just a mortal with Godly ki

Post by superfan2024 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:57 pm

"SSJ God makes Goku an actual deity as opposed to SSJ Blue"
That doesn't make much sense as Super Saiyan Blue is literally Super Saiyan God powered with regular Super Saiyan.

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Re: Proof that SSJ God makes Goku an actual deity, as opposed to SSJ Blue, which is just a mortal with Godly ki

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:16 pm

SSB is actually Super Saiyan God, POWERED by Super Saiyan, hence the name, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. So he is still a god, its just that SSB is all about that raw POWA

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Re: Proof that SSJ God makes Goku an actual deity, as opposed to SSJ Blue, which is just a mortal with Godly ki

Post by Grimlock » Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:43 pm

Kenneth La Torre wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:16 pm
SSB is actually Super Saiyan God, POWERED by Super Saiyan.
It is indeed the other way around (scroll down to "original concept" section). Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is the regular Super Saiyan with the power/god Ki of the Super Saiyan God.

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Re: Proof that SSJ God makes Goku an actual deity, as opposed to SSJ Blue, which is just a mortal with Godly ki

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:05 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:43 pm
Kenneth La Torre wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:16 pm
SSB is actually Super Saiyan God, POWERED by Super Saiyan.
It is indeed the other way around (scroll down to "original concept" section). Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is the regular Super Saiyan with the power/god Ki of the Super Saiyan God.
Actually, Goku describes the form as “a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan”. Recently, it has been established that this what happens when a Super Saiyan God turns into Super Saiyan, as Goku showed in the Broli movie.

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Re: Proof that SSJ God makes Goku an actual deity, as opposed to SSJ Blue, which is just a mortal with Godly ki

Post by Grimlock » Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:26 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:05 pm
Actually, Goku describes the form as “a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan”.
That's exactly what it is and what I said, you just rewrote it.
Hugo Boss wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:05 pm
Recently, it has been established that this what happens when a Super Saiyan God turns into Super Saiyan, as Goku showed in the Broli movie.
In the movie, Goku went from Super Saiyan God to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, not the other way around (that would be reverting to the previous form/getting rid of the Super Saiyan transformation). To put it in terms, Goku transformed into Super Saiyan while using god power, thus transforming into Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. There's a clear reason why Super Saiyan God retains the hair from base form and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan retains the Super Saiyan hair.

Then again, that's how it is supposed to work but it's not like this would be strictly consistent. For instance, we see that Goku reverts from Super Saiyan God to Super Saiyan 3 in the Toyotaro manga, as if those transformations were somehow connected, that Super Saiyan 3 leads to Super Saiyan God... That shouldn't be possible.

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Re: Proof that SSJ God makes Goku an actual deity, as opposed to SSJ Blue, which is just a mortal with Godly ki

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:01 am

Grimlock wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:26 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:05 pm
Actually, Goku describes the form as “a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan”.
That's exactly what it is and what I said, you just rewrote it.
Hugo Boss wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:05 pm
Recently, it has been established that this what happens when a Super Saiyan God turns into Super Saiyan, as Goku showed in the Broli movie.
In the movie, Goku went from Super Saiyan God to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, not the other way around (that would be reverting to the previous form/getting rid of the Super Saiyan transformation). To put it in terms, Goku transformed into Super Saiyan while using god power, thus transforming into Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. There's a clear reason why Super Saiyan God retains the hair from base form and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan retains the Super Saiyan hair.

Then again, that's how it is supposed to work but it's not like this would be strictly consistent. For instance, we see that Goku reverts from Super Saiyan God to Super Saiyan 3 in the Toyotaro manga, as if those transformations were somehow connected, that Super Saiyan 3 leads to Super Saiyan God... That shouldn't be possible.
You said SSBlue is SS1 with the power of SSGod. But that’s an outdated definition and it’s ambiguous. While one can infer that SSBlue is SS1 powered-up by SSGod powers (which is what you claim), another one can interpret that you are saying that SSBlue has the same powerlevel of SSGod, as it usually happened in the 2015 movie thread.

The exact definition given by Goku in the movie and then in the anime is exactly what I wrote, which is still ambiguous but a little more complicated. Was he saying 1) SSBlue is SS1 with the powerlevel of SSGod; 2) SSBlue is SS1 powered-up by SSGod’s power; or 3) SSBlue is the SS1 of a Saiyan with SSGod’s power?

Since 2018 and now in the recent chapters of the manga, it has been established that SSBlue is the third or rather the other way around of what you claim. SSBlue is a direct level-up from SSGod, as SS1 is a direct level-up from Base, not SSGod powering down to SS1 and then transforming again using SSGod’s power (confusing uh?). The manga also makes very clear that SSGod is the next level after SS3.

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Re: Proof that SSJ God makes Goku an actual deity, as opposed to SSJ Blue, which is just a mortal with Godly ki

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:49 am

SSBlue is a direct level-up from SSGod, as SS1 is a direct level-up from Base, not SSGod powering down to SS1 and then transforming again using SSGod’s power (confusing uh?).
This is the correct answer. Super Saiyan Blue is when a mortal surpasses Super Saiyan God. They remain a mortal though, they don't suddenly turn into a deity, nor were they ever a deity to begin with. There is an entirely different form for the actual deities who surpass Super Saiyan God, and that's Super Saiyan Rosé.
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Re: Proof that SSJ God makes Goku an actual deity, as opposed to SSJ Blue, which is just a mortal with Godly ki

Post by Grimlock » Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:10 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:01 am
You said SSBlue is SS1 with the power of SSGod. But that’s an outdated definition and it’s ambiguous. While one can infer that SSBlue is SS1 powered-up by SSGod powers (which is what you claim), another one can interpret that you are saying that SSBlue has the same powerlevel of SSGod, as it usually happened in the 2015 movie thread.
I think it's very clear what was stated in all those promotional images and what Goku said in the movie, there's no way one can't interpret it correctly. Unless, of course, you can provide official source saying that "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan has the same power level of Super Saiyan God" which does not make sense at all to claim. The former is a stronger transformation.
Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:01 am
The exact definition given by Goku in the movie and then in the anime is exactly what I wrote, which is still ambiguous but a little more complicated. Was he saying 1) SSBlue is SS1 with the powerlevel of SSGod; 2) SSBlue is SS1 powered-up by SSGod’s power; or 3) SSBlue is the SS1 of a Saiyan with SSGod’s power?
Again, I don't know where you saw "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan has the power level of Super Saiyan God" as it was never stated anywhere, but the correct answer here is number 3.

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Re: Proof that SSJ God makes Goku an actual deity, as opposed to SSJ Blue, which is just a mortal with Godly ki

Post by Bulma's Foot Masseur » Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:56 am

I don't think we can give the original promotion of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan too much credence when at that time it was predicated on the concept of "Saiyan Beyond God" which has since been essentially retconned.

(...Or has it? 👀)

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Re: Proof that SSJ God makes Goku an actual deity, as opposed to SSJ Blue, which is just a mortal with Godly ki

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:59 am

Grimlock wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:10 am
I think it's very clear what was stated in all those promotional images and what Goku said in the movie, there's no way one can't interpret it correctly. Unless, of course, you can provide official source saying that "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan has the same power level of Super Saiyan God" which does not make sense at all to claim. The former is a stronger transformation.

Again, I don't know where you saw "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan has the power level of Super Saiyan God" as it was never stated anywhere, but the correct answer here is number 3.
Of course, if you read the promotional blurb (specially the second one), after discussing the matter for thousands of pages in the 2015 movie thread
and all the way through 2016 in the Super thread without having that information, you can grasp the exact meaning of what Goku said. That he acquired the power of SSGod and then powered-up on top of that as a SS1. But without those promos, you could semantically infer that SS1 has become able to hold the same power of SSGod. There was a time we don’t knew if Goku could use SSGod again after Beerus Arc. So, a lot of people assumed Goku tapped into that power when he is SSBlue, as if those forms were two sides of the same coin. Even the first blurb gives that impression (a Super Saiyan who holds the power of a Super Saiyan God).
Bulma's Foot Masseur wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:56 am
I don't think we can give the original promotion of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan too much credence when at that time it was predicated on the concept of "Saiyan Beyond God" which has since been essentially retconned.

(...Or has it? 👀)
Precisely. It was intended and promoted that Goku and Vegeta would have the power of SSGod in normal form and then SSBlue would be the new default SS1. But this notion was discarded when they decided to bring back SS1, SS2, SS3 and SSGod.

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Re: Proof that SSJ God makes Goku an actual deity, as opposed to SSJ Blue, which is just a mortal with Godly ki

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:07 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:59 am
Bulma's Foot Masseur wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:56 am
I don't think we can give the original promotion of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan too much credence when at that time it was predicated on the concept of "Saiyan Beyond God" which has since been essentially retconned.

(...Or has it? 👀)
Precisely. It was intended and promoted that Goku and Vegeta would have the power of SSGod in normal form and then SSBlue would be the new default SS1. But this notion was discarded when they decided to bring back SS1, SS2, SS3 and SSGod.
In fact the name "Saiyan Beyond God" only appeared in Dragon Ball Heroes. We were never sure if this supposed form really existed, since Goku only retained the power of SSG in his normal form for a while. What was implied by the anime and manga is that base Goku and Vegeta became massively stronger after Whis's training.

The only clue we get from Saiyan Beyond God is in Toyotaro's RoF promotional manga, in which Goku attacks Whis with an SSG silhouette in the background (suggesting that he used SSG's power at that time without turning), even his blows are wrapped around Ki. And with both of them being able to turn into SSG, it would make no sense for the Saiyan Beyond God to exist.

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